Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Bomber7]

Ok, I know it's been a month since we last touched this, so I'm going to progress this discussion when this weekend is over with. Any final remarks or info, say so now. It would really help out a lot if I had more info to look at to make a more accurate summary.

 

[CoonTail]

Lol I can have Vinnie stop in to talk about the MU and he laughed hearly people say Ivy was rough for GnW to deal with.

He makes it very clear that Ivy is not to viable against GnW just based on F-smash/D-throw/& aerial mobility.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Will thought that about DK, too, before WHOBO. :3

 

[Bomber7]

Lol I can have Vinnie stop in to talk about the MU and he laughed hearly people say Ivy was rough for GnW to deal with.

He makes it very clear that Ivy is not to viable against GnW just based on F-smash/D-throw/& aerial mobility.

I can see where an Ivy with good mobility can be viable. I also support Squirtle's viability. Keep in mind, this isn't a full on MU discussion, it's just starting. Squirtle doesn't have to stay out for very long, he definitely has the ability to set the pace and set Ivy up to get the KO.

 

[Myollnir]

Will thought that about DK, too, before WHOBO. :3

Did you play him at WHOBO? Bracket or MM? Saved? :D

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Bracket. Beat him pretty soundly. He says he's confident in +2 Ivysaur.

Not sure if the matches were saved.

 

[Myollnir]

Haha okay good job!

Btw, I watched your double matches with him, both of you played really well.

 

[Rizen]

G&W wrecks all the pokemon. Char's too big a target and will take damage fast. He fills G&W's bucket instead of spacing with flamethrower. Squirt needs to be fresh to KO and take on G&W when he already has damage. Ivy can space and build damage best. Ivy is really s****ed if Ivy enters with damage because G&W's fire Fsmash has crazy power and G&W can gimp very well by hitting Ivy off stage. Ivy should start IMO.
G&W shuts down PT bad. There's not much more to be said

 

[Alphicans]

Squirtle is by far the best character to pick. Charizard is honestly a hopeless match-up, and ivysaur is good for maybe catching you off guard, but in the end I find ivysaur's counters telegraphed and reactable.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle is by far the best character to pick. Charizard is honestly a hopeless match-up, and ivysaur is good for maybe catching you off guard, but in the end I find ivysaur's counters telegraphed and reactable.

This. All of Ivysaur's really damaging options are punishable or easy to hard read.

 

[Rizen]

I'll go with the subject's experts then. Start with Squirtle.

 

[T-block]

Seconded.

Except I think Vine Whip doesn't get enough mention in this matchup, although it's not as effective against the way GW approaches Ivysaur as it is against some other characters.

 

[Myollnir]

It seems that Squirtle is the best starter then.

I like Ivysaur as well, but Squirtle is better against G&W so in my opinion, the best strategy is to play the first and last stock with Squirtle, play the second stock with Ivy and switch at mid/high %.

 

[Bomber7]

Yeah, we need some mobility against G&W, and Squirtle is the man for the job.

 

[CoonTail]

Will thought that about DK, too, before WHOBO. :3

Lol Will isn't Vinnie though, you know that guy who only got second to 9B his first tourney in Japan :3

 

[Alphicans]

If you don't start with squirtle you're letting GaW get a lead which is gonna really **** you over when you do have squirtle out :/. Make the best of squirtle and ride the momentum all the way back to squirtle.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lol Will isn't Vinnie though, you know that guy who only got second to 9B his first tourney in Japan :3

He did that with a character that legitimately good, though--Not Game and Watch. It's easy to overestimate a character that doesn't get a lot of use...

 

[Bomber7]

Ganondorf take Two

Well, now that G&W is over with, we can now move on to our next discussion. Here's what we had last time on Ganondorf:


Starter(s): Ivysaur Charizard

Summary:
Ivysaur- As an opening statement, all three pokemon have advantages against Ganondorf, however when it would come to starting, Ivysaur is one of the three pokemon that is the best choice. To start out simply, Ivysaur has an easy time out ranging Ganon with razor leaf. Also Ivy's move set is made for a heavy weight like Ganon so the pain can be brought on quickly. Spacing is also not a problem for Ivysaur with tilts and other moves that help Ivy space. Also Ganon's recovery is not one of the best, so Ivy should not have a hard time possibly gimping him or just flat out keeping the ledge from him. Be mindful of the death choke suicide. An advantageous trait of starting with Ivy is being able to switch to Charizard if you feel that Ivysaur lacks killing capabilities.

Charizard- The next best choice to go with is Charizard. Like Ivysaur, Charizard has Ganon out ranged as well, not at long range but at a mid range, so to speak. Unlike Ganon, Charizard is quite mobile on the ground and in the air. Spacing will not be a problem because Charizard has some great moves to keep Ganon away like his tilts or even a well placed bair. Taking the Ledge from Ganon wont be as bad either, Charizard has the chance to spike him if he tries to do a vertical recovery, also flamethrower will work nicely here as well, even if he does end up getting the ledge, it will come at the cost of taking much damage from the flamethrower. Squirtle too is ok to fight against Ganon but it is a bit too risk. If you find that you are in danger of being KO'd, switch to Squirtle, let him take the lethal blow and then you will have Ivy to start the run again. Just a word of caution, just we weary of the death choke suicide, if y'all are on both the last stock, they might try and take it to over time. However you have the advantage, if it went into over time, Squirtle would be sent out, just don't get cocky.

Page: 22 - 23

Overall, I still feel comfortable with what we have. Ivysaur and Charizard can out space Ganon. With Squirtle, I'm starting to see how going against characters, much bigger than me who pack a punch is dangerous. However I forget why we didn't include Squirtle in our last discussion. I'm going to go read back on it and see. Squirtle is fast and agile and could gimp with watergun.

All Ganon can do is play patiently and look at his options behind a shield. I know it may sound silly to say, but don't underestimate Ganon's power, he really does pack a punch and my friend who plays Ganon isn't afraid to attempt Ganonsides. Though it is fun to aggravate him with razor leaf and back air. There's also something you should be weary which is side-B into dair. If you aren't careful and he's able to read you, it can be a dangerous combination. All in all, don't be greedy, Ganon will find a way to punish you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle can crouch under anything that isn't D-Tilt, Dash Attack, or down-angled F-Smash. There's no reason not to use him.

If you really want to, Ivysaur is okay due to decent spacing advantage. I wouldn't recommend starting Charizard unless you think you'll walk all over him because it's Ganondorf. Flamethrower is excellent for stalling to let fatigue run its course.

 

[Bomber7]

Squirtle can crouch under anything that isn't D-Tilt, Dash Attack, or down-angled F-Smash. There's no reason not to use him.

If you really want to, Ivysaur is okay due to decent spacing advantage. I wouldn't recommend starting Charizard unless you think you'll walk all over him because it's Ganondorf. Flamethrower is excellent for stalling to let fatigue run its course.

I can't imagine it'd be too hard to use Charizard against Ganon. Get him off stage and spike him. Whether it be via Dair or stagespike. The hitboxes on dair would allow you to hit him at a safe range and not get ganonsided.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's slow-going if you don't want to risk letting him get in. Copious use of Flamethrower. His movement is just good enough to manage to avoid gimpage. Also, Charizard's awful rolls don't help much.

It's doable, but, so is Ivysaur, and I don't really recommend doing that, either.

 

[Myollnir]

Ganon can Side-B Squirtle if he's crouching though.

Imo both Pokémon do really well against him, but I don't see any reason to start as Charizard. Ivysaur and Squirtle are better (especially Squirtle, but starting as Ivysaur is good too... no?).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He can't lagless D-Air Squirtle, at least.

 

[Bomber7]

Ganon can Side-B Squirtle if he's crouching though.

Imo both Pokémon do really well against him, but I don't see any reason to start as Charizard. Ivysaur and Squirtle are better (especially Squirtle, but starting as Ivysaur is good too... no?).

No.

jk.

Ganon doesn't have really any quick moves so it's pretty easy to react assuming you aren't playing recklessly. His side-B can get annoying at times because it is a grab and it's not like you can shield it, but only if your first instinct to react to movement is shielding (sort or like me to an extent). I can see how Charizard may not want to be a option, although doable, you do have to get pretty close to Ganon and flamethrower can only do so much.

 

[T-block]

Squirtle can crouch under anything that isn't D-Tilt, Dash Attack, or down-angled F-Smash. There's no reason not to use him.

any grounded* move, and you missed side-b. f-air and reverse u-air can hit, but those are easily telegraphed

Copious use of Flamethrower.

yesss

i start ivysaur or charizard actually... i guess with a preference to ivysaur, only because of side-b being dangerous to charizard. i would favour charizard on a stage like FD or PS1 though. they're both better at walling out ganondorf and killing any of his momentum. squirtle is hard to hit and can put on more pressure, but he has to put himself at risk, and why take unnecessary risks?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But when Squirtle is hit, it usually stops after that. The same can't be said for Charizard and his huge frame.

Ivysaur isn't very vulnerable to strings from Ganondorf either, but she deals little damage per correct move compared to Squirtle, Charizard, or Ganondorf.

 

[Myollnir]

He can't lagless D-Air Squirtle, at least.

B-air doesn't work either (lagless or not, it won't hit).

When he's in the air and Squirtle is crouching, he can only D-air (right before landing -> laggy), F-air (same), DownB. I believe you can react to all those options. He can aerial SideB if he's at the perfect distance (far away from you, but not at the maximum range), but you have plenty of time to react.
Edit : Oh you're right T-Block, reverse U-air can hit, but I think it's not even safe on hit until like 60% unless you're pushed off the stage (Ganon has to FF so the move is laggy, and since you're crouching, you only take 2/3 of the hitlag)

Squirtle's crouch dodging is so awesome against Ganon. Especially on YI (moreover, the slopes will mess up his SH + autocancelled aerials)

@Bomber : Maybe you're right and Charizard is a good option when it comes to chosing your starter.

But I believe it's better to switch to Charizard to tank the stock when you're playing as Ivysaur rather than starting a stock with him. Just my opinion though.

 

[T-block]

But when Squirtle is hit, it usually stops after that. The same can't be said for Charizard and his huge frame.

I don't see how that's the case, unless you're talking specifically about follow-ups to side-b. Or if you're cramped with platforms like on Battlefield or Lylat, but in those cases I'd prefer Ivysaur.

I don't really care about low damage per correct move, as long as it's easy to make the correct move. Low risk-low reward is fine imo. My approach to the matchup is to stay safe, because Ganondorf is a character that needs his opponent to make mistakes, and therefore take risks. Yeah, you could probably overwhelm him with Squirtle, but if I were to come up against a solid Ganondorf player in tournament and I wanted to ensure a win, I'd start one of the other two, and use Squirtle more for securing the KO move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Aerial mobility for Squirtle allows him to get away from juggles.

 

[Bomber7]

@Bomber : Maybe you're right and Charizard is a good option when it comes to chosing your starter.

But I believe it's better to switch to Charizard to tank the stock when you're playing as Ivysaur rather than starting a stock with him. Just my opinion though.

It all just depends on how you use Charizard. I just really feel like we could space Ganon well.

Bair, flamethrower, dtitlt, grabbing are all good tools, heck, how many options does Ganon have in the air, haven't we said before that Charizard isn't that bad at juggling characters? How well does Charizard juggle Ganon? If anything, all he can do is dair or air dodge. Even if Ganon uses side-B while you plop on the ledge, he will get caught in flamethrower, he can't charge through it and kill you. Sure he can try and suicide you by jumping off the ledge into a side B but it's a pretty readable decision.

 

[T-block]

Aerial mobility for Squirtle allows him to get away from juggles.

...and why are we scared of Ganondorf's juggles? Multiple jumps + landing with Flamethrower, with the option of B-reversal should be more than enough to mitigate the threat of Ganondorf keeping us in the air. He doesn't have the horizontal movement, either on the ground or in the air, to reliably continue to punish that.

 

[Bomber7]

@ Reflex- Just out of curiosity, how many or whose Ganons have you played that make you feel like Charizard, even Ivy couldn't start as well as they probably could. I could be wrong but it sounds like you are underestimating their ability a little. I know all three pokemon have viable options which, depending on preference, would be good choices to start. It's not like we are looking for a start so perfect you pull a 0 to death out your butt. Point being, it just sounds like you are approaching this a little too cautiously, but I think I remember hearing somewhere you are a cautious player, so that might be why. In my case, I might come off as a little too aggressive, though that's my nature in fighting games. Just trying to understand your reasoning a little.

 

[T-block]

On the contrary, I would think I'm the one maybe being overly cautious by staying away from a Squirtle start.

 

[Bomber7]

On the contrary, I would think I'm the one maybe being overly cautious by staying away from a Squirtle start.

But you are just objecting to one as opposed to two pokemon. Plus, Ivysaur and Charizard have spacing capabilities, while Squirtle only has watergun to really keep him spaced, but it's not as quick or efficient as falmethrower, or razerleaf per se.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Ivysaur is hands down the best starter against Ganon imo. Play safely, camp us out, and if we ever touch your shield bullet seed us. Our only real option is landing a grab or punishing you, getting you offstage, and spiking you. GANON IS SCARY WHEN YOU ARE RECOVERING. It is where he is strongest, especially because you don't have an up-B that gets you back onto the stage. If you can avoid being knocked offstage, the MU is easily a +2 for you imo. Never try to force a kill, because if you do we kill you in 3 hits. Plan as if you are at 0 stamina for the whole match. And never, ever disrespect our moveset.

Just remember: DO NOT RELY ON A SPECIFIC TACTIC WORKING. Because we will eventually get around it, and when we do, you won't know what to do while we do.

As Charizard you should focus on switching to Squirtle as quickly as possible. No seriously. If we ever land side-B it can mean death. Chainchoking Charizard is not a hard task due to his inward roll being remarkably ****ty. We can pretty much run away and reverse a side-B. Charizard imo is even. He has a lot going for him, but he's just so easily punished and a side-B leads to so much abuse. Side-B isn't particularly hard to land either.

As Squirtle you are focusing on timing us out and getting safely back to Ivysaur. Run the clock, because 90% of what you do can and will be punished by a good Ganon. You have no remarkable OoS against us other than grab, which shouldn't connect except for a misspaced Dash Attack. That said, Squirtle is still just as easily a good option as Ivysaur, but suffers from a lack of a projectile which is why I have to say Ivy is best in the MU.

 

[Myollnir]

Ivysaur is hands down the best starter against Ganon imo. Play safely, camp us out, and if we ever touch your shield bullet seed us. Our only real option is landing a grab or punishing you, getting you offstage, and spiking you. GANON IS SCARY WHEN YOU ARE RECOVERING. It is where he is strongest, especially because you don't have an up-B that gets you back onto the stage. If you can avoid being knocked offstage, the MU is easily a +2 for you imo. Never try to force a kill, because if you do we kill you in 3 hits. Plan as if you are at 0 stamina for the whole match. And never, ever disrespect our moveset.

Just remember: DO NOT RELY ON A SPECIFIC TACTIC WORKING. Because we will eventually get around it, and when we do, you won't know what to do while we do.

As Charizard you should focus on switching to Squirtle as quickly as possible. No seriously. If we ever land side-B it can mean death. Chainchoking Charizard is not a hard task due to his inward roll being remarkably ****ty. We can pretty much run away and reverse a side-B. Charizard imo is even. He has a lot going for him, but he's just so easily punished and a side-B leads to so much abuse. Side-B isn't particularly hard to land either.

As Squirtle you are focusing on timing us out and getting safely back to Ivysaur. Run the clock, because 90% of what you do can and will be punished by a good Ganon. You have no remarkable OoS against us other than grab, which shouldn't connect except for a misspaced Dash Attack. That said, Squirtle is still just as easily a good option as Ivysaur, but suffers from a lack of a projectile which is why I have to say Ivy is best in the MU.

I agree with Ivysaur doing great against Ganon, but I really don't think Ganon-Zard is even.

And Squirtle has good OoS options with his aerials. And I don't think 90% of what Squirtle does can be punished, but I'm not an expert of this MU, so maybe you're right.

 

[DLA]

IMO, at a high level of play, Ganon is either even or has a slight advantage on both Ivysaur and Charizard, and he has a hard -2 against Squirtle. I'm sure a lot of you won't believe me, but I figure I'd give my opinion since I probably have more good PT exp than many of you have good Ganon exp.



Ivysaur is a bit harder than Charizard for Ganon because it's more difficult for Ganon to get inside. But it's still easier than a lot of you seem to think. Ganon's dash attack OoS is extremely dangerous for Ivysaur, because a lot of the time his dash attack completely beats out Razor Leaf, and if Ivysaur gets knocked into the air against Ganon, he's going to have a very hard time landing without taking at least one more hit. Ganon is much more dangerous to land against than most people realize.

If Ganon lands a side B against ANY of the three pokemon, he has a GUARANTEED ftilt (misses Squirtle but sends Ivysaur and Charizard offstage at a low angle that will result in a likely reverse Uair gimp at most %s), guaranteed Dtilt (sets up a juggle) and guaranteed dash attack (kills squirtle at less than 90% fresh, ivysaur at 100% fresh, and charizard at 110-115%ish fresh).

Ganon can have a hard time against Ivysaur's Bair, but as someone said, it's low risk, low reward. Except the problem is, the reward is too low considering how high Ganon's reward is if he manages to get inside. Honestly, in my smash career, likely over 80% of my kills on Ivysaur have been gimps. It's retardedly easy for Ganon to gimp Ivysaur. It does get a bit safer for Ivysaur if he knows how to cover his recovery with Razor Leaf, but it's still very easy for Ganon to gimp with reverse Uair, or in some cases dropoff Nair.



This is the easiest pokemon for Ganon to deal with IMO. He has a huge, clumsy hurtbox, gimpable recovery, bad landing options, and a moveset that really doesn't present Ganon with a lot of problems.

The most common strength I've heard you guys say that Charizard has over Ganon is flamethrower. And you're right, it is a pain for Ganon. It does make Charizard's landing safer, but not by THAT MUCH. If Charizard has to land on a platform, flamethrower isn't going to help him. And if he's landing on flat ground, in my experience Ganon can read the flamethrower and punish it if he knows what to do.

I'd go more into the matchup but I'm about to leave work. Suffice to say that in my experience, Ganon's moveset contends very well with Charizard's movesets in all aspects.



Squirtle is very tough for Ganon and most things you say about him are true. Squirtle can Utilt Ganon to over 50%, and outprioritzes a lot of Ganon's moves in the air. It sucks. Just don't side B against Ganon because he has a guaranteed warlock punch on you if he footstools you.



Let me know if you have any questions, I'll answer them when I get home.

 

[T-block]

Charizard is defs +2 over Ganondorf.

Even if Ganondorf could reliably chain chokes on Charizard, we always have the option of always rolling towards a ledge so that we go off-stage.

 

[DLA]

Chainchoking isn't actually a valid strategy and is negligible in every matchup haha. Charizard is the easiest to do it against, but it's still insanely difficult. Not to mention he can just roll to the ledge like T-block said.

 

[Myollnir]

If Ganon lands a side B against ANY of the three pokemon, he has a GUARANTEED ftilt (misses Squirtle but sends Ivysaur and Charizard offstage at a low angle that will result in a likely reverse Uair gimp at most %s), guaranteed Dtilt (sets up a juggle) and guaranteed dash attack (kills squirtle at less than 90% fresh, ivysaur at 100% fresh, and charizard at 110-115%ish fresh).

Seriously?

I thought D-Tilt / DA weren't guaranteed if the characters does a get-up/ get-up attack / rolls (I don't know which one is the right option lol) but I remember that it was only on certain characters.
So my question is : is it really guaranteed?

If it is, then yeah it's definitely going to help Ganon, the PT has to avoid the SideB (not THAT hard actuallyexcept maybe with Zard but still annoying imo). If you F-Tilt, I believe Ivysaur can just grab the ledge before you can gimp her (unless you're at the edge of the stage).

And I don't know how you can reliably gimp Charizard? He has 2 double jumps, and his UpB has a super armor on it, Ganon's aerials are slow so we can just react and UpB, no?

Anyway, thanks for the input!