Myollnir
Smash Ace
Aerials don't have priority.
It's all about range and speed in the air.
It's all about range and speed in the air.
-
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Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO
- Thread starter Bomber7
- Start date
Myollnir
Smash Ace
T-block
B2B TST
have any vids of ivy-falcon?
i'm interested in seeing how you play it
i'm interested in seeing how you play it
other than space like hell with bair and RL?
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Haha no vids sorry, I played against a Falcon yesterday and I wanted to save some vids, but he was bad, so that wouldn't mean anything :/
I use Razor Leaf when I'm at the good distance so I can't be punished. I like doing a FH Fair, then either retreat an AD into the ground or go behind him and land while using a Bair (and reverse FTilt if he's shielding).
SH and Bair while landing is good too (after that I like foxtrotting away from the opponent, and reverse the second dash (I don't know if you see what I'm talking about, that's the thing Leon often does) to punish if he attempted to do something. Empty SH to FTilt/Grab if you see a shield while SHing (U-smash could work too, but it's risky).
Hmm, U-throw U-air is nice at very low %, as well as Nair to BS/U-air.
I don't want Falcon right next to me. If he gets in, BS can save Ivy in most situations, but don't rely heavily on it.
Try putting him offstage, then Instant tether and punish his landing with his UpB with an U-air/BS. Dair can work too (use it through the plateform to hit his UpB).
If you can bait a dashgrab/dash attack and you're at a good distance, charging an FSmash will often work.
And of course, I like switching to Zard when I'm at high %.
I use Razor Leaf when I'm at the good distance so I can't be punished. I like doing a FH Fair, then either retreat an AD into the ground or go behind him and land while using a Bair (and reverse FTilt if he's shielding).
SH and Bair while landing is good too (after that I like foxtrotting away from the opponent, and reverse the second dash (I don't know if you see what I'm talking about, that's the thing Leon often does) to punish if he attempted to do something. Empty SH to FTilt/Grab if you see a shield while SHing (U-smash could work too, but it's risky).
Hmm, U-throw U-air is nice at very low %, as well as Nair to BS/U-air.
I don't want Falcon right next to me. If he gets in, BS can save Ivy in most situations, but don't rely heavily on it.
Try putting him offstage, then Instant tether and punish his landing with his UpB with an U-air/BS. Dair can work too (use it through the plateform to hit his UpB).
If you can bait a dashgrab/dash attack and you're at a good distance, charging an FSmash will often work.
And of course, I like switching to Zard when I'm at high %.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Only Up Air.
Diddy Kong take Two
Alright, the OP is updated (working on chart right now so not 100% updated). As you will notice, I put Ivysaur and Charizard in the avoid section because there were valid points on either side why to use and don't use them and overall, it seems that it is still not 100% clear how good/bad their performances would be against Falcon. To be fair for readers, I did mention some of the points made whether you were for or against the use of either pokemon. Thanks again for participation and happy posting!
Starter(s): Squirtle
Summary:
Squirtle- Ditty is a hard match up all together for Pokemon Trainer, in this case, it is best that Squirtle is your starter. Ditty is a pain to deal with because his mobility and agility. Squirtle is the only Pokemon that would help ease the pain of this horrible match up. You'd have to play smart, take control of Squirtle's speed and agility to gain control of Ditty's bananas and put on the pain. When this happens, take advantage of Squirtle's awesome glide tossing abilities. Now, in the case that squirtle dies, you're going to have to make short work of Ivy and Charizard and as quickly as possible, in a smart and no a reckless way, switch back to Squirtle. Ivy, has some capabilities in fighting but looking at the circumstances, it's highly suggested that Squirtle is your starter.
Page:8 - 10
Alright, the OP is updated (working on chart right now so not 100% updated). As you will notice, I put Ivysaur and Charizard in the avoid section because there were valid points on either side why to use and don't use them and overall, it seems that it is still not 100% clear how good/bad their performances would be against Falcon. To be fair for readers, I did mention some of the points made whether you were for or against the use of either pokemon. Thanks again for participation and happy posting!
Starter(s): Squirtle
Summary:
Squirtle- Ditty is a hard match up all together for Pokemon Trainer, in this case, it is best that Squirtle is your starter. Ditty is a pain to deal with because his mobility and agility. Squirtle is the only Pokemon that would help ease the pain of this horrible match up. You'd have to play smart, take control of Squirtle's speed and agility to gain control of Ditty's bananas and put on the pain. When this happens, take advantage of Squirtle's awesome glide tossing abilities. Now, in the case that squirtle dies, you're going to have to make short work of Ivy and Charizard and as quickly as possible, in a smart and no a reckless way, switch back to Squirtle. Ivy, has some capabilities in fighting but looking at the circumstances, it's highly suggested that Squirtle is your starter.
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T-block
B2B TST
"...to ITS fullest extent"
sorry that bothers me =x
i pretty much agree with what we already have for diddy (although not sure the word horrible needs to be there).
sorry that bothers me =x
i pretty much agree with what we already have for diddy (although not sure the word horrible needs to be there).
I might revise the summary a little, mature it a little unless there's no problem with what I have now?
T-block
B2B TST
mm... it's diddy not ditty? =P
yeah, looks pretty accurate to me. we've had a good idea of the PT-diddy matchup for a while now, and it hasn't really changed much. personally, i think ivysaur loses REALLY hard to diddy (worse than charizard unless you're on lylat or something), but i think reflex feels differently.
yeah, looks pretty accurate to me. we've had a good idea of the PT-diddy matchup for a while now, and it hasn't really changed much. personally, i think ivysaur loses REALLY hard to diddy (worse than charizard unless you're on lylat or something), but i think reflex feels differently.
diddidddiddidtttittitdidittidiy >_> Me can't speel, I shall fix later.
I'm pretty sure nothing much will be said, or anything different at least, but it won't hurt for people to still contribute and state why Ivy and Zard are bad choices, just so I have something to write about for the avoid section.
T-block
B2B TST
sure
ivysaur cannot hope to be able to approach diddy ever. diddy is too strong in his shield (shield that tends to not be poked like... ever, ridiculous OoS options, ivysaur's slow grab) and will destroy any attempts to approach, especially on spacious stages. ivysaur's role is then limited to stalling for time, and even then, diddy easily outcamps ivysaur, and can even approach himself fairly easily if he feels so inclined. ivysaur is naturally more comfortable playing anti-air, but most of diddy's approach options are ground-based.
charizard's major problem is that his mobility comes almost exclusively from his dash speed... ie- ground mobility. and diddy is really good at shutting that down. that, in turn, limits charizard's grab game, which makes a sad charizard. doesn't help that he has a huge frame and is very easy to hit with bananas. i do think he does better than ivysaur, just because he actually has SOME chance at approaching, but it's still nowhere near squirtle's capabilities.
both ivysaur and charizard have slow banana throws and just generally don't have a moveset that lends itself to being able to easily pick up bananas.
ivysaur cannot hope to be able to approach diddy ever. diddy is too strong in his shield (shield that tends to not be poked like... ever, ridiculous OoS options, ivysaur's slow grab) and will destroy any attempts to approach, especially on spacious stages. ivysaur's role is then limited to stalling for time, and even then, diddy easily outcamps ivysaur, and can even approach himself fairly easily if he feels so inclined. ivysaur is naturally more comfortable playing anti-air, but most of diddy's approach options are ground-based.
charizard's major problem is that his mobility comes almost exclusively from his dash speed... ie- ground mobility. and diddy is really good at shutting that down. that, in turn, limits charizard's grab game, which makes a sad charizard. doesn't help that he has a huge frame and is very easy to hit with bananas. i do think he does better than ivysaur, just because he actually has SOME chance at approaching, but it's still nowhere near squirtle's capabilities.
both ivysaur and charizard have slow banana throws and just generally don't have a moveset that lends itself to being able to easily pick up bananas.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Yup, Squirtle is the best against Diddy.
Besides his classic cool stuff, he has some nice shenaningans with bananas. You can shellshift and immediatly throw your banana to slide in the middle of a dash, his glide tosses are really good (a long and a short ). Using hydrojab to pick a banana while sliding is awesome.
You can cancel a grounded watergun with a roll, and you can cancel your roll by throwing a banana (glide toss). While in the air, you can airdodge and cancel you airdodge with a banana throw (instant throwing).
When he's using withdraw, Squirtle doesn't care about bananas. You can also use withdraw to put the bananas offstage if they're at the edge of the stage.
Ivysaur is bad against Diddy.
The only thing you can really do is pick a banana and try to camp with razor leaf...
One good thing is that Diddy can struggle to kill you.
But there are no reasons to start with Ivy.
As you said, Charizard is really hurt by bananas, and should be very easy to combo at low %. I think he also has a long trip animation (+ a very very bad BRoll... don't trip on a banana lol). I wonder if we could use the infinite jump renewal thing to approach while avoiding grounded bananas.
However, as CoonTail said in the Diddy thread, RSCA is really good against Diddy. Does anyone know if we have a CG on Diddy with the air release?
But, yeah, if you have the choice, don't ever start with him.
Besides his classic cool stuff, he has some nice shenaningans with bananas. You can shellshift and immediatly throw your banana to slide in the middle of a dash, his glide tosses are really good (a long and a short ). Using hydrojab to pick a banana while sliding is awesome.
You can cancel a grounded watergun with a roll, and you can cancel your roll by throwing a banana (glide toss). While in the air, you can airdodge and cancel you airdodge with a banana throw (instant throwing).
When he's using withdraw, Squirtle doesn't care about bananas. You can also use withdraw to put the bananas offstage if they're at the edge of the stage.
Ivysaur is bad against Diddy.
The only thing you can really do is pick a banana and try to camp with razor leaf...
One good thing is that Diddy can struggle to kill you.
But there are no reasons to start with Ivy.
As you said, Charizard is really hurt by bananas, and should be very easy to combo at low %. I think he also has a long trip animation (+ a very very bad BRoll... don't trip on a banana lol). I wonder if we could use the infinite jump renewal thing to approach while avoiding grounded bananas.
However, as CoonTail said in the Diddy thread, RSCA is really good against Diddy. Does anyone know if we have a CG on Diddy with the air release?
But, yeah, if you have the choice, don't ever start with him.
Player-1
Smash Legend
squirtle .
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Shall we move on?
CoonTail
Smash Lord
I would hope so since this is such a recently discussed MU that is pretty well defined.
Donkey Kong take Two
I'm very sorry for the delay. I've been busy this pass week with work and family stuff. Hope you guys had a good Easter and such. Anyway, here's the next discussion! There's not much I can say due to lack of MU experience. However from the fights I did have back in the day, I feel like the starters will be Ivysaur and Charizard like it was for Bowser. Anyway, here's what we had from last time, happy posting!
Starter(s): Squirtle Ivysaur Charizard
Summary:
Squirtle-This match up is somewhat similar to the one face against Bowser, however you must remember that DK is a different heavyweight than Bowser. It's best to use Squirtle for what he is good for and that is racking up damage quickly. Take advantage of his speed, agility and attacks to rack up damage to do so. However be cautious because DK has a pretty good reach and could punish Squirtle easily if you aren't careful. When using Squirtle, it's best if you don't use him for long and switch to Ivy as quickly as possible after you have racked up a sufficient amount of damage.
Ivysaur- Because DK requires a little more spacing than the average heavyweight, Ivysaur will come in perfectly here. Ivy has some great tilts along with Razor leaf that will help space DK. Bullet seed will also help with racking up damage on DK quickly. Just be very careful when approaching because if DK grabs you and walks with you off the stage, he will most likely set you up for a gimp. The key here with Starting with Ivysaur is to space well, though remember about him grabbing you and setting you up for a gimp when he possibly carries you off stage, try to avoid from being grabbed to where you are set up for that situation.
Charizard- Charizard is a good start against DK as well. He can keep DK spaced with Flame thrower and Rock Smash along with some of his tilts, which have some good reach. Also his grabs are fast as well which will come in handy for racking up damage. Charizard is pretty mobile, so keeping up with DK should not be a problem. Also Charizard can take some punishment so you have an enduring start. Like with the other two Pokemon, spacing will be key in the match, including the beginning.
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I'm very sorry for the delay. I've been busy this pass week with work and family stuff. Hope you guys had a good Easter and such. Anyway, here's the next discussion! There's not much I can say due to lack of MU experience. However from the fights I did have back in the day, I feel like the starters will be Ivysaur and Charizard like it was for Bowser. Anyway, here's what we had from last time, happy posting!
Starter(s): Squirtle Ivysaur Charizard
Summary:
Squirtle-This match up is somewhat similar to the one face against Bowser, however you must remember that DK is a different heavyweight than Bowser. It's best to use Squirtle for what he is good for and that is racking up damage quickly. Take advantage of his speed, agility and attacks to rack up damage to do so. However be cautious because DK has a pretty good reach and could punish Squirtle easily if you aren't careful. When using Squirtle, it's best if you don't use him for long and switch to Ivy as quickly as possible after you have racked up a sufficient amount of damage.
Ivysaur- Because DK requires a little more spacing than the average heavyweight, Ivysaur will come in perfectly here. Ivy has some great tilts along with Razor leaf that will help space DK. Bullet seed will also help with racking up damage on DK quickly. Just be very careful when approaching because if DK grabs you and walks with you off the stage, he will most likely set you up for a gimp. The key here with Starting with Ivysaur is to space well, though remember about him grabbing you and setting you up for a gimp when he possibly carries you off stage, try to avoid from being grabbed to where you are set up for that situation.
Charizard- Charizard is a good start against DK as well. He can keep DK spaced with Flame thrower and Rock Smash along with some of his tilts, which have some good reach. Also his grabs are fast as well which will come in handy for racking up damage. Charizard is pretty mobile, so keeping up with DK should not be a problem. Also Charizard can take some punishment so you have an enduring start. Like with the other two Pokemon, spacing will be key in the match, including the beginning.
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B2B TST
screw squirtle... minimize squirtle's time imo
charizard all daaaaay
i guess ivysaur can make a good starter too if your ivy doesn't suck lol
charizard all daaaaay
i guess ivysaur can make a good starter too if your ivy doesn't suck lol
Input from the DK side, I really suggest you just pick what you're most comfortable with, none of the three do much worse or better than the others. Ivysaur is probably the biggest risk just because of recovery and such.
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B2B TST
nooooo s2 you're WRONG
squirtle loses
but charizard beats DK by like PLUS THREE
squirtle loses
but charizard beats DK by like PLUS THREE
Squirtle did me no justice when I played DK. Cyphus sound familiar? His DK just destroyed my squirtle. Even though the skill gap was huge between us back then, I have to say, my best performance was with Charizard. Ivysaur wasn't so bad, granted I wasn't as good with her as I am now. Overall, no squirtle.
T-block
B2B TST
squirtle sorta fights "even" in that i think two players of even skill will generally trade hits
but squirtle trading hits with DK = losing matchup for squirtle
but squirtle trading hits with DK = losing matchup for squirtle
Neon!
Smash Lord
DK is one of the few characters does about the same against each of these pokemon.
Unlike most matchups squirtle shouldnt be an easy first choice against DK. DK loves to trade hits, especially against someone as weak as squirtle. Our long ranged bair and uair help us to force trades often especially in this matchup considering the angles that squirtles usually approaches us at. Reflex thinks DK wins this one +1 but I maintain that it is even.
Charizard on the other hand can afford to trade with us more often and has the range to compete with our bair and tilts. DK still lives longer and kills faster though, DK's dsmash, giant punch, 9 wind and fsmash are all deadly here and easier to land due to Char's large frame and slow aerial speed. Also both characters can edgeguard each other well. Could be +1 in either characters favor or even.
Ivysaur is sort of like a glass cannon against DK. His bullet seed is more reliable in this matchup than others due to the fact that many of DK's attacks extend his hurtbox. This can do an easy 30-40% and possibly put us in a juggle situation. Ivy's average camping game, coupled with the surprising range on his bair and fair make him harder to approach than most DK's would assume. On the other hand DK's cargo-dthrow and generally impressive offstage game with bair and stalled up-b will make it very hard for ivy to recover leading to early kills.
Still a fairly close matchup, could be +1 for either character.
All this to say what Sold already said lol. Choose whoever you're most comfortable with. If you're especially good at avoiding gimps though I would go with Ivy and then switch once you get DK offstage.
Unlike most matchups squirtle shouldnt be an easy first choice against DK. DK loves to trade hits, especially against someone as weak as squirtle. Our long ranged bair and uair help us to force trades often especially in this matchup considering the angles that squirtles usually approaches us at. Reflex thinks DK wins this one +1 but I maintain that it is even.
Charizard on the other hand can afford to trade with us more often and has the range to compete with our bair and tilts. DK still lives longer and kills faster though, DK's dsmash, giant punch, 9 wind and fsmash are all deadly here and easier to land due to Char's large frame and slow aerial speed. Also both characters can edgeguard each other well. Could be +1 in either characters favor or even.
Ivysaur is sort of like a glass cannon against DK. His bullet seed is more reliable in this matchup than others due to the fact that many of DK's attacks extend his hurtbox. This can do an easy 30-40% and possibly put us in a juggle situation. Ivy's average camping game, coupled with the surprising range on his bair and fair make him harder to approach than most DK's would assume. On the other hand DK's cargo-dthrow and generally impressive offstage game with bair and stalled up-b will make it very hard for ivy to recover leading to early kills.
Still a fairly close matchup, could be +1 for either character.
All this to say what Sold already said lol. Choose whoever you're most comfortable with. If you're especially good at avoiding gimps though I would go with Ivy and then switch once you get DK offstage.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
@Sold2 and Neon : Thanks for the input. That's nice to see people from other boards that don't say "omg don't play with ivy he suuuuuucks".
I feel like Squirtle loses to DK (-1).
Squirtle can do some nasty things at low % but then, DK is so hard to kill, especially with the fatigue.
I think Ivysaur and Charizard both beat DK (+2), so it's a matter of preference when it comes to chosing your starter.
I feel like Squirtle loses to DK (-1).
Squirtle can do some nasty things at low % but then, DK is so hard to kill, especially with the fatigue.
I think Ivysaur and Charizard both beat DK (+2), so it's a matter of preference when it comes to chosing your starter.
Neon!
Smash Lord
You're going to have to explain yourself on ivy and charizard beating us +2. Our -2 matchups are characters like falco, zss and diddy who force us to approach and have great options for beating our approaches and and doing massive damage off of single reads. Charizard and Ivy are underrated but float near the even range for us. This is primarily due to Ivy's horrendous recovery and Char's slow air speed and height allowing DK to harrass him with his amazing short hop double bairs.@Sold2 and Neon : Thanks for the input. That's nice to see people from other boards that don't say "omg don't play with ivy he suuuuuucks".
I feel like Squirtle loses to DK (-1).
Squirtle can do some nasty things at low % but then, DK is so hard to kill, especially with the fatigue.
I think Ivysaur and Charizard both beat DK (+2), so it's a matter of preference when it comes to chosing your starter.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
I don't believe Zard beats DK -2 but I think he has advantage in this MU. Zard can space with Flamethrower to keep DK at bay and DK can't really attempt to SDI through flamethrower without eating a ton of damage. Zard's b-air outranges DK so we can play keep away just a bit better along with the fact that our grab range being so massive allows us to grab DK even more.
RSCA is hard to land in this MU but if you do land it RS -> U-smash/Up-b is scary for DK since it sends him almost straight up leaving him without the oppourtunity to use his DK Style "bucket break". We can do a pretty solid job of juggling DK with U-air, U-tilt, and U-smash mainly on levels with platforms. U-smash can cover almost all options DK has when trying to land on a platform.
Overall I feel Zard can zone DK well, has good damage racking capability, can juggle + potentially KO DK vertically, and can keep DK out with options that can end up killing like sweetspot B-air. Like I said Zard is deffinitly the start in this MU.
RSCA is hard to land in this MU but if you do land it RS -> U-smash/Up-b is scary for DK since it sends him almost straight up leaving him without the oppourtunity to use his DK Style "bucket break". We can do a pretty solid job of juggling DK with U-air, U-tilt, and U-smash mainly on levels with platforms. U-smash can cover almost all options DK has when trying to land on a platform.
Overall I feel Zard can zone DK well, has good damage racking capability, can juggle + potentially KO DK vertically, and can keep DK out with options that can end up killing like sweetspot B-air. Like I said Zard is deffinitly the start in this MU.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
I'm sorry, I meant +1, I didn't know what I was thinking when I posted. Sorry again.
I had my answer typed, but I had a ****ing problem with my computer >.<
And now it's 11:20PM here in France and I have a tournament tomorrow, so I'll only be able to post on Sunday...
Also Charizard has the 14th best air speed.
I had my answer typed, but I had a ****ing problem with my computer >.<
And now it's 11:20PM here in France and I have a tournament tomorrow, so I'll only be able to post on Sunday...
Also Charizard has the 14th best air speed.
T-block
B2B TST
this is implying that charizard is going to be fighting DK in the air
which is completely ridiculous =\
I really don't feel like Ivysaur is that useful in the matchup. So he has shield pokes? Okay so what, DK has a bad shield and flamethrower/rocksmash/ Squirtle dair will poke anyway.
Bulletseed? 30-40 damage and if you miss he will Fsmash you can gimp you. DK is big enough to easily eat the 60+ damage rock smash combo and get juggled. If DK gets upthrown or uptilted by squirtle he will take 40+ damage anyway. Ivysaur is also slow and will be more easily cornered than the other 2. He doesn't REALLY have any advantage over zard or squirtle in this matchup. He is far more fragile than squirtle.
Bulletseed? 30-40 damage and if you miss he will Fsmash you can gimp you. DK is big enough to easily eat the 60+ damage rock smash combo and get juggled. If DK gets upthrown or uptilted by squirtle he will take 40+ damage anyway. Ivysaur is also slow and will be more easily cornered than the other 2. He doesn't REALLY have any advantage over zard or squirtle in this matchup. He is far more fragile than squirtle.
Neon!
Smash Lord
The range of Charizard's bair is comparable with DK's and they both hit on frame 7, apart from this DK's bair is superior in every way. DK's is active for 10 frames while Zard's is only active for 4 giving dk more leniency on the timing. This also means DK's bair is more likely to initiate a trade, trades are still in DK's favor in this matchup. DK's bair ends on frame 31 while charizard's ends on frame 41 making DK's much safer in general. DK's bair can combo into itself during a wide range of percentages depending on how stale it is and whether you hit with the weak or strong hitbox. Charizard is the 14th fastest in the air, congratulations, DK is 7th. Don’t ever try to compare your characters back air with DK's, you will lose.
DK doesnt even have to fight charizard in the air though, our dtilt, ftilt and ground pound outrange everything you can do except flamethrower. Dk is not going to be DI'ing through the flamethrower unless he's right next to you in which case he di out quickly and possibly hit zard with side-b. Outside of our regular ground options we still have the fully charged punch and roflcopter both of which apply solid shield pressure while having SA frames.
Tesh pretty much summed up what I wanted to say about squirtle, bullet seed is great if it hits but dk's one of the best at punishing mistimed bullet seeds since his 9 wind will kill you around 60%.
It should also be noted that DK’s grab release animation is 10 frames faster than most characters meaning squirtle and char can’t do their regular mixups out of grab.
It's hard to come to a consenus on the DK vs PT matchups since the best DK's and PT's live in entirely different areas and rarely play each other. I'm still set on both Ivy and Charizard being even.
DK doesnt even have to fight charizard in the air though, our dtilt, ftilt and ground pound outrange everything you can do except flamethrower. Dk is not going to be DI'ing through the flamethrower unless he's right next to you in which case he di out quickly and possibly hit zard with side-b. Outside of our regular ground options we still have the fully charged punch and roflcopter both of which apply solid shield pressure while having SA frames.
Tesh pretty much summed up what I wanted to say about squirtle, bullet seed is great if it hits but dk's one of the best at punishing mistimed bullet seeds since his 9 wind will kill you around 60%.
It should also be noted that DK’s grab release animation is 10 frames faster than most characters meaning squirtle and char can’t do their regular mixups out of grab.
It's hard to come to a consenus on the DK vs PT matchups since the best DK's and PT's live in entirely different areas and rarely play each other. I'm still set on both Ivy and Charizard being even.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Nice analysis, but you failed to mention that Charizard's tail is not part of his hurtbox, while DK's foot IS part of his hurtbox.
Both Bair are really good, but DK's Bair is a bit better imo (not by much).
DK having a better air speed doesn't mean Charizard has a slow airspeed.
Our FTilt is disjointed and has about the same range as your FTilt.
You have to be very very careful, Charizard's Shieldgrab will be really awesome if you use your tilts. That means an U-Throw most of the time, which is not exactly what you want (being above Zard).
DownB has a huge range, right. But be careful, if we see it coming, you'll eat ~50-60% (SideB + USmash, which will kill you if you're at high %). Still a good option.
The donkey punch should rarely hit. The UpB can be shut down with a Flamethrower I think. Tbh, I can't think of many situations when your UpB is going to be used (maybe if you see a RockSmash coming?).
We don't really care about DK's ground release animation because he goes to far for Squirtle's Jab to hit anyway.
But yeah, we should never ground release a DK.
BS should only be used at punishing. It should NEVER miss.
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B2B TST
charizard's dash speed and grab range alone mean DK is not going to be able to play the outranging game with ground moves
charizard doesn't need his "regular mixups out of grab" because he just needs to throw DK up and then mess with him as he tries to land.
charizard doesn't need his "regular mixups out of grab" because he just needs to throw DK up and then mess with him as he tries to land.
Doubt I'll argue much either way.
Squirtle, -1. Range is dumb, but Squirtle can do all he wants if he gets lucky with rolling the dice via airdodge/roll. Get DK in the air, and he takes a loooooot of damage. Squirtle D-Air also eats DK's recovery alive.
Ivysaur, +2. Pretty rough for DK, for reasons I've argued a ton already and don't mind pulling text out over.
Charizard, +1. Charizard Up-B and U-Smash out-of-shield work similarly to Bullet Seed, but not as damaging. Rock Smash pokes a shield that isn't full. Short bursts of Flamethrower disrupts his spacing. We're both fat, but DK juggles us a little better because his U-Air is awesome. We can edgeguard DK pretty easily.
Would still totally call this +2, since switching isn't a big deal. At worst, a +1 that's leaning very heavily on +2.
Squirtle, -1. Range is dumb, but Squirtle can do all he wants if he gets lucky with rolling the dice via airdodge/roll. Get DK in the air, and he takes a loooooot of damage. Squirtle D-Air also eats DK's recovery alive.
Ivysaur, +2. Pretty rough for DK, for reasons I've argued a ton already and don't mind pulling text out over.
Charizard, +1. Charizard Up-B and U-Smash out-of-shield work similarly to Bullet Seed, but not as damaging. Rock Smash pokes a shield that isn't full. Short bursts of Flamethrower disrupts his spacing. We're both fat, but DK juggles us a little better because his U-Air is awesome. We can edgeguard DK pretty easily.
Would still totally call this +2, since switching isn't a big deal. At worst, a +1 that's leaning very heavily on +2.
Neon!
Smash Lord
Ivysaur's offensive and defensive capabilities dont compare with characters like falco or diddy. Bullet seed is great but 40% is nothing for DK, DK will be living til 140 + while ivy dies near 100 to dsmash and punch and can be gimped at nearly any percent. Up angled ftilt and bair will beat most of Ivy's aerial approaches. Ivy's weight class makes him a perfect candiate for DK to double or even triple bair, often putting him offstage. DK is one of the best in the game at staling near the ledge with his up-b, iirc dk is only vulnerable for 7 frames when stalling with well timed up-b's. This combined with his long reaching bair and ability to put ivy in bad positions off of cargo-dthrow make it hard for ivy to recover. When ivy does recover high we can still punish with uair which kills around 130 or possibly go for a jump canceled side-b followed by dsmash. The latter technique is rarely used by most dk's but is great for punishing predictable landings, here it is shown catching mk offguard but is fairly reliable for punishing characters who recover high http://youtu.be/z_zO2H4Uw0s?t=3m37s it can also be reversed allowing dk to hit characters who recover right next to the ledge.
I know we've argued this matchup before reflex but I never agreed with you. I consented to +1 ivy because you were most respected player in the discussion since Will never showed up and my opinion was less valued. I havent spoken to will on this matchup but every other dk believes it is even or near even (+1 both ways)
I know we've argued this matchup before reflex but I never agreed with you. I consented to +1 ivy because you were most respected player in the discussion since Will never showed up and my opinion was less valued. I havent spoken to will on this matchup but every other dk believes it is even or near even (+1 both ways)
From looking over the discussion, so far from what I can make out of it:
Charizard is a solid starter when playing against DK.
Ivysaur is viable but as of right now, it seems as though starting with Ivy is... trivial? I want to say, for lack of a better word at the moment. So using her is a personal choice.
Squirtle, isn't recommended, he's more a gamble which doesn't fit the title of "best" starter.
I'm very pleased with the activity of the thread since this discussion has been only open for a couple of days now. Keep in mind that this thread isn't a pure MU thread, so don't get too carried away. I'm enjoying reading all this stuff, seeing I can't hold an MU discussion to save my life. I'll be following closely and some time next week, I will bring this discussion to a close. Thank you to everyone who is contributing. The info being brought to the table is very helpful in writing the summaries.
Charizard is a solid starter when playing against DK.
Ivysaur is viable but as of right now, it seems as though starting with Ivy is... trivial? I want to say, for lack of a better word at the moment. So using her is a personal choice.
Squirtle, isn't recommended, he's more a gamble which doesn't fit the title of "best" starter.
I'm very pleased with the activity of the thread since this discussion has been only open for a couple of days now. Keep in mind that this thread isn't a pure MU thread, so don't get too carried away. I'm enjoying reading all this stuff, seeing I can't hold an MU discussion to save my life. I'll be following closely and some time next week, I will bring this discussion to a close. Thank you to everyone who is contributing. The info being brought to the table is very helpful in writing the summaries.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Learn2mash and he'll only be able to carry you offstage if he grabs you near the edge.
Neon!
Smash Lord
Also forgot to mention that DK's bair can be thrown out twice in one short hop while Zard's can only be thrown once. DK's bair has 15 frames of landing lag while Zard's has 22. DK's vertical air speed is much faster than Zard's allowing him to bait air dodges much better with both bair and uair.
I tried out each of the pokemon on a fellow DK player last night and would have to say Charizard is the best choice here. Ivysuar's incredibly poor recovery make him a risky choice even though his damage out put against DK is fairly good.