Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Bomber7]

Meh, I'll update tomorrow when I get time, when I start the next discussion I will decide the outcome of this thread whether to:

-let it die
-give it to someone that you all know like IRL or Orion if it will get this thread rolling
-have it closed














-attempt to make all the summaries myself and then for the rest of the pages left in here you can argue about how wrong I am or something like that and then I can fix my ****.

 

[T-block]

I'll take it over for you if you don't want to do it anymore =\

 

[Bomber7]

I'll take it over for you if you don't want to do it anymore =\

I'll think about it. If I do then you can take it to the back room with you and discuss it there, though I'm sure by now all the back room people know all this stuff.

Edit: I'm just more concerned with getting it completed. I may just go ahead and take the liberty of completing the guide myself. =/

 

[Bomber7]

Edit: Yeah, if things are static like the Lucas discussion after I start tomorrow's new on, then I'm completing it myself. Then if something needs to be fixed but I will only fix it if it is a valid point or reason.

oops sorry for double post. accidentally quoted myself. >>

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion: LUIGI

On a first note, when you, Orion, get the chance, update the chart.

Second, let's begin the LUIGI Discussion.

Squirtle and Ivy are the two choices to start against

You guys know the drill by now. =D

Edit: 20 characters left, woot, almost done guys. 23 if you want to count the 3 pokemon.

 

[Steeler]

i'd say squirtle only, the other two are ok but zard gets comboed and ivy gets guaranteed shoryukened out of his jab, which will kill at like 40%...

 

[Bomber7]

Ouch, I didn't know that.

 

[typh]

asfjhk **** luigi

i counterpicked a luigi in my pool at genesis with marth and i won LOL

 

[Bomber7]

I played a pretty good luigi player(best one I have ever faced) and my Squirtle -> Ivy Battery worked out well. My only problem is in our third match, I choked and Squirtle was KO'd in my first stock which threw off the rhythm of my whole battery and I lost. However I was quite satisfied with myself that I found out that the battery worked. I let Charizard take the fall so I would have a fresh Squirtle.

 

[Tien2500]

i'd say squirtle only, the other two are ok but zard gets comboed and ivy gets guaranteed shoryukened out of his jab, which will kill at like 40%...

Are you sure the jab combos into Shoryuken? I was under the impression you could always DI away. Not sure why Ivy would be an exception.

Anyway Squirtle is generally my starter on this. You both have great airgames so its just a matter of who's better really. Zard does fine against Luigi but he gets comboed at low percentages. Depending on your stage though you might be ok starting with him. (Also you can't do anything out of a grab release ). Ivy is ok. She can outspace him well and he might have a hard time approaching. (Razor leaf is better than fireball here). But Shoryuken is even move ridiculous than normal and there is always the threat of gimping.

Also don't forget that Luigi's Fsmash is also ridiculous.

 

[Miles.]

luigi ***** the **** out of ivy

 

[Tien2500]

luigi ***** the **** out of ivy

Care to elaborate on that a bit more? I haven't played Ivy too much against good luigis.

 

[T-block]

Fire punch will kill at stupidly low percents, and his aerials are way too strong for Ivy to handle. All you can do is b-air really...

I start Charizard actually...being combo'd sucks, but I have issues playing Squirtle against anyone who beats him out in the air -_-

 

[Bomber7]

Charizard get's combo'd by like the whole cast except for a few, it can't be helped. Now it would make a difference if he got combo'd so bad he would literally be useless, other than that, I don't see why it's that big of a deal that Charizard gets combo'd and that makes a halfl presented point why he shouldn't start.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Because you have the option of starting as someone who cant be comboed and when you are at moderate percent bring the zard out :D.. that the big deal about PT

 

[Bomber7]

Hmm well looking at the arguments, it seems like Squirtle is the only good starter. Ivysaur is ok though I don't have much confidence that I would be able to have my Ivysaur start and do well or even Charizard.

Though either way I don't mind like I said before my Squirtle -> Ivy battery worked out fine for me against Luigi who was ultimately better than me.

 

[zhao_guang]

Don't know if you even care about this discussion anymore, but Squirtle is the one to start with. Ivy is the easiest one to fight from my experience, but I can see Ivy being used semi-effectively.I find Charizard has some moves that can surprise the typical A metagame Luigi. Squirtle is the best though in this situation, he can escape Luigi's air game pretty easy, and when you space Squirtle's air game, it's annoyingly hard to play him.

Gimping Luigi is how you're going to win, Luigi can be hard to kill/it's hard for you to land kill moves on him, but his very predictable recovery leads to easy KOs.

When using Ivy, I guess good spacing aswell, keep Luigi at bay for as long as you can. Try to force him to roll and punish him with whatever. Roll to shoryuken is what Luigi players tend to do against a spacing/campy Ivy.

Charizard, I dunno, spam something.

This is a hard matchup for you guys, you'd have to make the most of Squirtle and really gimp well.

 

[T-block]

'course we care zhao...thanks for your input

I can definitely see how Squirtle would have the easiest time gimping Luigi...I just don't see how you're gonna land too many hits on him with his aerials *coughnaircough*. I kinda want to know what you think of Charizard though... he's outranges Luigi and has Rock Smash, and he can gimp decently too... I dunno how easy you find combo'ing Charizard?

 

[zhao_guang]

If you just space Squirtle's aerials, n-air isn't too bad. Don't get too aggressive or n-air will be a problem.

Charizard's options for gimping aren't that great against Luigi's recovery, such as cyclone and the such. If you go too far off stage, a rising cyclone could hit you and gimp you.

Charizard is the easiest to combo, but he's harder to kill because once the 0-60% aerial **** is done, we have to get back in again and land the upB, or butter him up and f-smash him. Because Charizard is the big guy of the team, we tend to get over-aggressive and that's when you can take advantage. Rock smash when we start forcing kill moves will be helpful.

I don't really know Charizard, but he'll have a hard time gimping Luigi unless he predicts a cyclone for a d-air spike. Your best bet is avoiding the early aerial combos, and if that fails, baiting our over-aggression and trying to land as much damage/a KO as possible

 

[T-block]

K thanks ^^

So looks like...
Squirtle is the best in the matchup
Ivysaur is the worst
Charizard does all right, but gets combo'd at lower percents

Squirtle > Ivy to Zard at 50%ish > Squirtle

seems like our ideal switch order.

If you're like me and don't like Squirtle as much in this matchup,

Charizard > Squirtle > Ivy to Zard at 50% looks pretty good too.

 

[Vermy]

Squirtle is the best in the matchup
Ivysaur is the worst
Charizard does all right, but gets combo'd at lower percents

This is truth for 80% of PTs matchups. Kinda depressing. I'd like to start confidently as Ivy or Charizard more often =[

 

[T-block]

Yeah sucks doesn't it? I've basically fallen into this pattern:

-If Squirtle for some reason does not do as well as the other two (Ike), start Ivysaur if he does all right. If not start Charizard.
-If Ivysaur gets completely wrecked, or hard enough that you would consider immediately switching and taking the hit with Charizard, and Charizard does decent against your opponent (MK), start Charizard and tank the first two stocks with the Charizard/Squirtle.
-If Squirtle is significantly better than the other two, which is often the case, start Squirtle to maximize your time with him.

Pretty much everyone has figured this out I'm sure, but yeah...

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion: MARIO

Ok, Mario too has Squirtle and Ivysaur as recommendations for starters. I don't see too much problem in doing that. The cape is dangerous for mainly Squirtle and Charz so Vinewhip should be relatively safe from it. Squirtle can take the air and make circles around Mario practically. Ivy has some good moves to space the heck out of Mario. Only really problem I see is cape.

 

[Tien2500]

Another problem is Mario's Fsmash. Its not that hard to avoid but if it hits you can get KOed pretty early. Even if its not an outright KO it will get you far enough off the stage where it will be hard to recover, specifically with Ivy's recovery and Mario's gimp game. And Mario can gimp with more than just the cape.

Charizard is OK here. After he gets to mid percentages and can't be comboed anymore he can outspace and out KO Mario. Beware of gimps but otherwise you're fine.

Squirtle is probably the best. He has the best airgame and if you can beat Mario in the air you're in good shape. Again watch out for gimps.

 

[Bomber7]

I guess all three wouldn't be bad, they all have strong points against mario it's just if Charizard gets off the stage, he's a sitting duck and I'm sure a good mario would KO Charz in some way shape or form.

 

[Vermy]

i made you a picture for the first post =3

 

[T-block]

lolol vermy <3

Go Squirtle imo... for the same reasons as like every other character

Squirtle -> Ivysaur
Charizard
Squirtle

 

[Bomber7]

THANKS VERMY I LOLED. ON OP FOREVER.

I think I'll move on with the next character. Squirtle would seem to be the likely choice for this. =D

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion: MARTH

Even though this thread has become quite inactive and I, for the most part, will be finishing this thread on my own, I am still going to post what character should be up for discussion so if any of you have thoughts or comments, you can post them. Who knows, they could be something that would be great to have in the summary.

On the chart:

Squirtle
Ivysaur
Charizard

I'm going to need a little help on this. I relatively don't do half bad with all three, especially with Squirtle. However due to my lack of alot of Marth experience with Ivy and Charizard I will need some sort of explanation as to why they would be considered good starters.

 

[typh]

now THIS is going to be an interesting debate

unfortunately like always i have nothing to add

gogogogogogo

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I usually start with ivy, proyectiles (not the best but those are one of the very few marth disadvantages) and good range to fight marth... gimps are troublesome but you should be used to it, and switching to zard at high percents is a pretty good deal
squirtle gets wrecked by the chaingrab and the range diference

 

[Toby.]

Start with charizard. Let charizard die. Then you get to choose 1 of 3 options.

1)Keep squirtle until (or just before) his fatigue runs out. Then Dthrow->switch. Keep going with ivysaur until death, and then use 'zard for the last stock.

2)Keep squirtle for the entire second stock. Switch out ivysaur as soon as you can, then play final stock as charizard.

3)Knock marth away and switch out squirtle as quickly as you can. Do the same with ivysaur. Play the rest of the second stock with charizard, and repeat this process for the final stock.

I've done all three of these, and the one you pick depends on how good your opponent is. Their knowledge of the PT matchup greatly influences our switch habits.

Although since this thread is about choosing your starter: always start with Charizard.

 

[Steeler]

yeah always start charizard

toby i'm assuming that you listed it in order of how effective it is against good opponents, with number 3 being the least effective/most situational?

 

[Toby.]

Actually I just listed them in the order that they came to me. Now that you mention it though, they are actually ordered from easiest to hardest.

Despite that, I believe that in an ideal world option 3 is the strongest. If you manage to end your first stock with marth on a high enough percent for both squirtle and ivysaur to immediately use a GTFO move and switch, then you're in a great position. 3 stocks using charizard almost the whole time is good stuff.

But its tricky. You need to land the throw/whatever really early in those stocks or else you'll forfeit the advantage you were going for.

If you aren't confident in going for 3xcharizard approach, then look at it like this. Option 1 is your offensive option that keeps squirt and ivysaur unfatigued and in their appropriate damage range (ie we're switching ivy in to not only save charizard from getting hit by a free fthrow->fsmash at the start of the final stock when we switch straight away, but also to take advantage of her extra weight in the higher percents of the second stock).

Option two is far more defensive. Squirtle plays extreme keep away here, constantly running, baiting and stealing a couple hits here and there. We don't care that squirtle will get fatigued because we're never really going for an early kill. We're just slowly building up as much damage as possible so that when zard finally comes back, he can get an easy kill to level out the match.

All three options have their merits, imo.

 

[Zigsta]

I agree with starting Charizard for the reasons Toby mentioned. Only reason I can think of starting Ivysaur is to stay away from Squirtle if you know you're going to a stage without platforms and fear the CG on Squirtle. But let's face it: Marth's approaches wreck Ivysaur without a CG. XD

 

[Shaya]

- Don't have Ivysaur out at low percents. You'll die
- Don't have Squirtle out at mid percents onwards. You'll die
- Charizard's better at mid percents onwards. Does better than ivy at low percents too.

Read: ivysaur is useless.

And I'm talking about your percents, not the Marths.

 

[Vermy]

Charzilla.

10zards.

 

[Toby.]

- Don't have Ivysaur out at low percents. You'll die
- Don't have Squirtle out at mid percents onwards. You'll die
- Charizard's better at mid percents onwards. Does better than ivy at low percents too.

Read: ivysaur is useless.

And I'm talking about your percents, not the Marths.

Pretty much this, yes.

 

[Bestiarius]

Meh, I tend to do better with Ivysaur, but I don't play very good Marths. Toby's argument for Charizard is pretty compelling, plus Zard has really good spacing options. And, if he can manage to get Marth off the edge, he has a huge advantage because Zard is a beast at edgeguarding and Marth's recovery sucks.

 

[Bomber7]

Charizard was the last guy I'd expect to be the starter. I always assumed Squirtle would be. Imo as long as you don't confront Marth head on in the air you won't get *****, and as long as you space the **** out of him like a friking pro with water gun whether he will be in the air or not, you should be fine with squirtle. The only thing I hate is the zero to death combo on squirtle

Edit: I remember watching one of Toby's matches against a good Marth player in Ausi. It was a match somewhere close to semi finals I think(or maybe it was I forget), I didn't see him start with Charz I don't think. He kept up a good Squirtle-Ivysaur Battery. It was a work of beauty.All I saw Charizard used for was taking the sacrificial KO. However aside from that Toby does also make some interesting and valid points.