Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Tien2500]

True, but somewhat countered by the curve, the speed and (on some stages) the wall cling. This isn't Fox, mind: even if you edgehog, Lucario can easily land on stage 90% of the time, especially with proper DI. Of course, you can punish him for that, but Lucario is by no means easily gimped. You also have to take into account that he can quite safely defend himself from edgeguarding with any of his directional air attacks, as well as Aura Sphere (situational).

I'd recommend starting as Squirtle over Charizard due to Lucario's early chaingrab, but they're both viable. When starting as Squirtle, though, you might want to consider switching to Ivysaur early - if you don't kill him fast, he'll become SUPER LUCARIO. Not only will this allow you to avoid that to some extent, but after KO'ing Lucario as Ivysaur, you can deal some additional damage and lessen the impact of Lucario's chaingrab when Charizard comes in.

The order I'd recommend:
- Start as Squirtle.
- Switch to Ivysaur when Lucario and Squirtle both get medium-high percentages.
- Finish the stock as Ivysaur.
- Tank Charizard throughout the next stock, unless you manage to kill Lucario while Charizard is at a low %. In that case, switch to Squirtle when you get the kill.
- Again, switch to Ivysaur once Lucario and Squirtle get to medium-high percentages.
- If necessary, switch to Charizard to finish the job.

This switching pattern will allow you to take advantage of the fact that at low %, Lucario is Baby Lucario.

I wasn't necessarily talking about simply jumping on the ledge to gimp him (although that can work sometimes). But once you get Lucario to the point where he has to use the maximum length of extreme speed to recover then its pretty easy. If Charizard can get an fair even at low percentages Lucario is in trouble. Likewise Squirtle can use his aerials to get him far enough away from an edge to grab it. Certainly Lucario isn't at a Link/Olimar/Ivysaur level of gimpability but its a weakness worth noting.

Also I wouldn't try Ivy at high percentages for Lucario. Ivy racks up damage well but can have trouble landing his KO moves which is exactly what you want to avoid.

Btw do you know approximately at what percentages Lucario can chain Zard?

 

[T-block]

Yeah to be honest I think Squirtle would have an easier time killing Lucario than Ivysaur would.

Squirtle
Ivy > Zard at medium percents
Squirtle

is the stock order I use against Lucario

 

[anax4aero]

I haven´t fought many good Lucarios, so could someone explain what´s so bad about starting with Ivy? At low percentages Ivy probably outranges Lucario, and when the damage rises too much switch to Charizard for the kill. Then keep Charizard until the next stock is lost and then Squirtle is fresh for the last minutes of the battle.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I haven´t fought many good Lucarios, so could someone explain what´s so bad about starting with Ivy? At low percentages Ivy probably outranges Lucario, and when the damage rises too much switch to Charizard for the kill. Then keep Charizard until the next stock is lost and then Squirtle is fresh for the last minutes of the battle.

This
I know ivy can get gimped and all that... but its not that bad right?

And for ivy trying to kill Lucario... fsmash has always worked for me :/

 

[Tien2500]

I haven´t fought many good Lucarios, so could someone explain what´s so bad about starting with Ivy? At low percentages Ivy probably outranges Lucario, and when the damage rises too much switch to Charizard for the kill. Then keep Charizard until the next stock is lost and then Squirtle is fresh for the last minutes of the battle.

If anyone here plays Lucario correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Lucario's range is the same at any percentage and only power changes. Anyways I don't think that Ivy is terrible for Lucario but isn't as good as the other two.

As for Fsmash it certainly will KO Lucario but its somewhat hard to land and Lucario may get to fairly high percentages (and high power) by the time you can land it.

 

[Bomber7]

If anyone here plays Lucario correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Lucario's range is the same at any percentage and only power changes. Anyways I don't think that Ivy is terrible for Lucario but isn't as good as the other two.

As for Fsmash it certainly will KO Lucario but its somewhat hard to land and Lucario may get to fairly high percentages (and high power) by the time you can land it.

Well also think about this: Ivy has some pretty laggy attacks, and Lucario can just as easily avoid and punish Ivy which is bad.

 

[anax4aero]

If anyone here plays Lucario correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Lucario's range is the same at any percentage and only power changes. Anyways I don't think that Ivy is terrible for Lucario but isn't as good as the other two.

As for Fsmash it certainly will KO Lucario but its somewhat hard to land and Lucario may get to fairly high percentages (and high power) by the time you can land it.

I believe you're correct, I just read Aura increases priority, not range.

Still, I'm not convinced not to start with Ivysaur. She may not be as good as the others, but not being terrible I'd rather start with Ivy to raise damage for when Charizard is out, instead of having to deal with her later when Lucario is either beefed up or working to even out stocks.

Last thing: isn't it just as likely for Ivy to punish some of Lucario's moves and approaches? I'm probably wrong, but I wouldn't mind learning why I'm wrong.

 

[T-block]

Tien I think you're right about range not increasing. The only hitbox increase for Lucario is Aura Sphere I believe.

 

[Tien2500]

I believe you're correct, I just read Aura increases priority, not range.

Still, I'm not convinced not to start with Ivysaur. She may not be as good as the others, but not being terrible I'd rather start with Ivy to raise damage for when Charizard is out, instead of having to deal with her later when Lucario is either beefed up or working to even out stocks.

Last thing: isn't it just as likely for Ivy to punish some of Lucario's moves and approaches? I'm probably wrong, but I wouldn't mind learning why I'm wrong.

A lot of Lucario's attacks are very hard to punish because his aura has a sort of lingering hitbox. Ivy also doesn't have a great many tools to punish against Lucario's range advantage up close.

I don't think Charizard has much trouble both getting the damage up and KOing Lucario before he gets extremely powered up.

Tien I think you're right about range not increasing. The only hitbox increase for Lucario is Aura Sphere I believe.

Yeah thought so.

 

[Bomber7]

I don't know why but I'm still just uncomfortable starting out with Ivy. I've just found having Squirtle to start or Charizard more assuring than having Ivy.

 

[Tien2500]

I don't know why but I'm still just uncomfortable starting out with Ivy. I've just found having Squirtle to start or Charizard more assuring than having Ivy.

Lol. Same reason as I do. You probably use Squirtle and Charizard more (with good reason) and just simply aren't as good as Ivy.

 

[Bomber7]

Lol. Same reason as I do. You probably use Squirtle and Charizard more (with good reason) and just simply aren't as good as Ivy.

Actually no, out of my 3 pokemon I use, Squirtle and Ivy are my battery. Charizard is by himself for the stock tank. Just from playing Lucario's I felt more comfortable starting with squirtle and then having Ivy kill then stock tank with Charz.

 

[Tien2500]

Actually no, out of my 3 pokemon I use, Squirtle and Ivy are my battery. Charizard is by himself for the stock tank. Just from playing Lucario's I felt more comfortable starting with squirtle and then having Ivy kill then stock tank with Charz.

I stand corrected.

 

[Ryusuta]

I know I haven't been saying much lately, but Ivysaur really isn't a good choice against Lucario. There's really no safe way for him to get back on stage when recovering without taking a crap load of damage from Aura Sphere after Aura Sphere. Squirtle at least has his size and air speed to work with, and Charizard has a glide, but get Ivysaur off stage once, and Lucario doesn't even have to chase. Ivy's got a gigantic "PLEASE JUGGLE ME WITH AURA SPHERES" sign on his back.

If Ivy goes low and catches the ledge, Lucario charges and hits him as he gets up. He goes high and attacks/dodges down, Lucario laughs and smacks him with another one. Razor Leaf doesn't beat a charged one, nor does forward air.

And even when he's NOT fighting through a swarm of Aura Spheres, he doesn't have many options against Lucario. Bullet Seed is out of the question, he can't juggle Lucario, and he can't space him.

Charizard and Squirtle are unquestionably better for starting against Lucario.

 

[Zigsta]

I usually go with Charizard just to keep Ivysaur as far away as possible. For reasons already mentioned, I don't like the Ivysaur-Lucario matchup.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[T-block]

I think Masky summed it up quite nicely there.

 

[Fearmy]

Squirtle i say. Squirtle just needs to be afraid of the Large hit boxes. but as long as you can keep the pressure up, and retreating when neccescary, then i guess you'll do fine, but you'll need to kill this guy quick or his guts activates :X. Charizard can do fine as a lead, but CG just **** him hard core, better off as a tank later.

 

[Bomber7]

Heh watergun is very effective against Lucario. Recovering or charging aurasphere. I beleive it would be very useful to fighting and staying alive.

 

[shinyspoon42]

This is an annoying matchup, lucario gets stronger the longer the match goes on, while PT gets weaker.

 

[dre_89_]

I'm not uncomfortable fighting with Ivy but wouldn't it always be bad to start with him because he can be gimped so easily at low percents?

Now I start with Squirtle most of the time so that I can dthrow switch to Ivy at higher percents, then have Charizard come in when he's KO'd.

I know people perfer Charizard at higer percents because of his weight but I prefer him out of a KO because if you're a stock behind he can equalise quickly, and he can just KO at low percents in general with fair and dair. Just my opinion though, I'd like to know what you guys think.

 

[Masky]

..........

 

[Ryusuta]

I'm not uncomfortable fighting with Ivy but wouldn't it always be bad to start with him because he can be gimped so easily at low percents?

Not always. Some characters just aren't made to easily gimp their opponents. If this is the case and the character is heavy and/or has a bad approach, Ivysaur makes a great starter.

 

[Bomber7]

Not always. Some characters just aren't made to easily gimp their opponents. If this is the case and the character is heavy and/or has a bad approach, Ivysaur makes a great starter.

Ivy can only be gimped easily for only a few reasons:

-if you are inexperienced with him and get gimped by a person better than you
-get gimped by a pro who could do it with his/her eyes closed
-if you lack the experience of being cleverly reckless with Ivy when pursuing
-if you get gimped b/c of being the stupid kind of reckless that gets you no where but pain.

there could be other reasons besides those, other than that Ivy imo is not that easy to gimp.

 

[Tien2500]

Ivy can only be gimped easily for only a few reasons:

-if you are inexperienced with him and get gimped by a person better than you
-get gimped by a pro who could do it with his/her eyes closed
-if you lack the experience of being cleverly reckless with Ivy when pursuing
-if you get gimped b/c of being the stupid kind of reckless that gets you no where but pain.

there could be other reasons besides those, other than that Ivy imo is not that easy to gimp.

Ivy is one of the easiest characters in the game to gimp. Who's easier? Maybe Olimar and maybe link. Thats about it.

 

[Bomber7]

Ivy is one of the easiest characters in the game to gimp. Who's easier? Maybe Olimar and maybe link. Thats about it.

Yeah I'd say Link and then probably Lolimar

 

[Ryusuta]

Take it from me, ladies and gentlemen: Olimar is not... I repeat NOT easy to gimp.

 

[Steeler]

Take it from me, ladies and gentlemen: Olimar is not... I repeat NOT easy to gimp.

he's easy to gimp if you are good.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

You just gotta bait his down B and then own him :D
Anyway gimping ivy is easier than gimping olimar... well. that also depends of how many pikmin des he have

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Its much easier to get Ivysaur in a postion to get gimped then Olimar though.

F%%%% Pivot grab lol.

 

[Ryusuta]

he's easy to gimp if you are good.

He's easy to gimp if you only play ****ing ****ty Olimars that make you think you're good.

Seriously, if you honestly think Olimar's easy to gimp, you have NEVER played a good Olimar, and should just stop talking.

 

[dre_89_]

Could you explian how Olimar is not easy to gimp? I always thought it was rather easy, just wait for the whistle armour then aerial then edgehog.

He may be hard to get offstage because of his fighting abilities, but that doesn't mean he's not hard to gimp once you get him there.

Anyway if I'm wrong explain it to me so I know.

 

[Bomber7]

Let's get back on topic shall we? Don't need off topic stuff causing this thread to close.

 

[Steeler]

He's easy to gimp if you only play ****ing ****ty Olimars that make you think you're good.

Seriously, if you honestly think Olimar's easy to gimp, you have NEVER played a good Olimar, and should just stop talking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktmTt11-KUs&feature=channel

look at how he almost brings it back to last stock anyway against the other two, fino is legit. just ask the oli boards. you can watch his matches against domo, a top 10 national meta knight (placed top 8 at whobo, beating infinity and lain along the way), for further proof.

if you still think fino is trash (and that olimar isn't easy to gimp), then maybe it's you that should just stop talking eh?

by any chance orion, are you going to supercon in denver next weekend? i'll be there.

 

[T-block]

that olimar texture was so win

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion: Lucas

Time for the next discussion; starter(s): Charizard

I really don't see why but I'm going to listen to y'alls reasoning whether or not you agree with only Charizard being the prime starter.

 

[T-block]

Squirtle is easily the best pokemon in this matchup.... Charizard does pretty well, and I don't like Ivysaur against Lucas, although some people disagree.

That being said, I think Squirtle start is the best here. Squirtle doesn't get hit that hard by n-air and d-air combos and can get around PK Fire pretty easily. Our air game beats Lucas' pretty soundly, and there's a possibility of an early Water Gun gimp. Grab release combo to the edge, let him ground break, jab his double jump or tether, then Water Gun right away. Works really well on anyone who hasn't seen it before lol. You could go Charizard and tank the first stock if you really wanted, but I don't think it's as good. Charizard can be pretty easily combo'd by his n-air and d-air at low percents.

Squirtle -> Ivy at high percents
Charizard
Squirtle

is the switch order I like to use.

 

[anax4aero]

Definitely squirtle. I think t-block summed it up pretty well.
Charizard is not bad, but Lucas´s aerials can rack up damage pretty quickly on charizard in a way they can´t on squirtle due to size and speed. Ivysaur is not terrible either, but squirtle does much better. They´d be good for tanking, but the way I see it I´d rather tank after PT has the stock advantage.

 

[Zigsta]

I'm gonna sound like a broken record here, but I start Charizard only because Ivysaur doesn't have grab release shenanigans on Lucas like Charizard and Squirtle do. It's true that Charizard gets combo'd at low percents, but that's true for a lot of characters Charizard plays against. It's sadly one of the disadvantages of being a heavy. :/

 

[Bomber7]

Only think I could think of that would really worry about is flamethrower spam, other than that I dont think Charz should be a problem. Rock smash I would find useful against Lucas (as most in-your-face characters lol MK)