Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Ryusuta]

For me, Squirtle's air speed and pokes are what make him work against Kirby as a starter (much like with Jiggs).

I've hard really good experiences shutting down Kirby's WoP and throw game with Ivysaur, as well.

Charizard isn't a HORRIBLE starter since he can space Kirby like mad and land some major damage for an early KO, but Kirby is a fantastic juggler (words a fresh Charizard fears), and his down throw into up tilt lock into forward smash is a quick 0-70% damage in one fell swoop. And of course, Charizard's air speed becomes a factor in this match as well, especially on certain stages. In my opinion, these two factors just BARELY edge him out of the recommended list. I wouldn't call it SUICIDE to start him, but it's more of a risk.

 

[T-block]

Ivy gets gimped too easily by Kirby to be a starter imo. F-smash can send you out pretty far at low percents, and then Kirby has b-air, f-air, d-air, n-air, down-b to edgeguard with. Squirtle has it easiest with the grab combos, but Kirby's b-air alone can really hurt Squirtle's air game, which is never a good thing. You really have to outplay your opponent to get in and land a hit. Kirby's f-smash will KO before 100% on most stages too. Charizard kinda gets railed by the grab combos, but I've actually been starting Charizard with some success lately. Space like crazy... n-air into jab is nice, d-tilt, short flamethrowers, and hopefully you can do as much damage as he can.

As for who to start.. I'd say Squirtle/Charizard, probably with Squirtle having the edge. Squirtle switch to Ivysaur at around 80% is probably a good plan. One problem with this is that we have to watch out for Kirby getting Bullet Seed and then killing Ivysaur. That could lead to some 90% combos pretty easily on Charizard.

 

[TrIkZ]

I think either way kirby has the upperhand
grab combos charizard and ivy but squirtle is lightweight.
Switching squirtle out at around 70 is a good idea sense at the mid corner of basically any level a fsmash would kill him. definitely start with squirtle he has the best chance.

 

[Vermy]

Squirtle. No qualms about it.
Switch to ivy at 80ish%, or let squirtle take the full first stock.
Ivy to Zard on stock 2 and finish Kirby off with Squirtle again.

 

[Bomber7]

There's no problem starting with Squirtle and switching to Ivy though Charizard is a small concern. Kirby have 5 jumps and with that he can easily avoid any of his attacks, if he jumps toward a rock smash, he can use one jump to avoid and another to jump back and punish. Plus he takes the sky from Charizard's control do Charizard trying to keep up in the air is bad. now I won't deny, Charizard can seriously punish if Kirby messes up in his range like with a good rock smash or a smash attack like that however Flamethrower is close to useless if you want to rack damage with him. You could get a few percents of damage with it however I really don't see much use in starting Charizard.

Ivysaur is ok, he has great aerials that can stop Kirby, if he is in range, plus Ivy has more moves to use to rack up damage than Charizard imo. Plus if you get the chance, you could kill Kirby at a % around 100, maybe less?

Squirtle is great too, though I'd suggest using him for a limited time. Let him take the sky and pound kirby and then let Ivy take care of the rest, then let Charizard take the sacrificial KO and come out with a new Squirtle and repeat.

Though those are just my thoughts.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I like starting with Ivy here. He's got some tricks to rack damage and can also possibly kill Kirby. And if Ivy gets knocked out first, in come Charizard, who can easily pick him off with Fly or Rock Smash as long as Ivy did his job.

 

[shinyspoon42]

I'd say start with Ivysaur, and focus on racking damage/spacing. Kirby gets shutdown by Ivys spacing game, and he is forced to approach by razor leaf. However he can't approach well, because bair, ftilt, and uair keep him away. Save your second jump, in case he gets you off stage. Once you've racked up damage with Ivy, switch to zard when you are damaged so he can't get juggled, and you can kill the pink ball. Then when zard dies, you'll have a fresh squirtle. :3

 

[T-block]

shinyspoon really likes ivy @.@

 

[Collective of Bears]

shinyspoon really likes ivy @.@

Well Ivy is awesome.

 

[Vermy]

(First off i'd like to say, if i sound like a d!ck in the following statements, forgive me, i've had a bad day and i intend on being constructive. So apologies in advance if i sound like a d!ck.)

I'd say start with Ivysaur, and focus on racking damage/spacing. Kirby gets shutdown by Ivys spacing game, and he is forced to approach by razor leaf. However he can't approach well, because bair, ftilt, and uair keep him away.

No. Just...No. Racking damage on Kirby with Ivy?
Ivy's main tools for this are nair and bulletseed.
Nair on kirby won't work alot as his bair will keep you off him. Bulletseed fails on small folk, so thats that taken out of the equation. Don't even say bair because it will not keep Kirby away. It will annoy him for a little but he'll catch on, dodge through it and you'll be in trouble then. Ftilt has deceptive range, and not in the good way. if anything you should be using dtilt. NOT ENOUGH IVYS USE DTILT. I've been talking to Toby (Tcranter) alot lately and we both agree it's simply the much better option when compared to jab, ftilt and bair. Its quick, its his most unpunishable tilt, and it has solid range. That being said, Dtilt will fail on kirby, because if he's smart, (after he's fthrow>uair>whatever'd you to about 40%) he will be staying in the air and spamming the life out of bair. Kirby also has a combo that is guaranteed to get you offstage from 0% if you aren't on a stage as big as say FD.
Fthrow>uair>fthrow>hammer. This will hurt. A lot.

Kirby does not approach well. At all. Abuse that razor leaf. Run. Pivot grab if the opportunity arises. Space with DTILT. Spotdodge everything. Shielding will only help vs his smashes. If you shield, you will be grabbed. If you shield his bair, he's out of grab range. Spotdodged a bair? Dash attack.

Save your second jump, in case he gets you off stage. Once you've racked up damage with Ivy, switch to zard when you are damaged so he can't get juggled, and you can kill the pink ball. Then when zard dies, you'll have a fresh squirtle. :3

Saving the second jump should be second nature by now to every PT, but nevertheless i agree with you. and it shouldnt be "once you've racked damage with ivy" it should be "once the opportunity presents itself" Switch to Zard. I LOVE Ivysaur, but in a match vs someone who fights so confidently offstage, Ivy doesnt work well.

I'm not saying Ivysaur is useless here, but in this matchup:
Stock 1: Squirtle
Stock 2: Ivy+Zard
Stock 3: Squirtle

That is much more efficient.

 

[Steeler]

yep i agree with vermy's switch order

the throw combos can be avoided with SDI though, so it's not too bad. i think charizard can rock smash through them as well.

 

[Toby.]

Random ivy stuff kaygo:
Razor leaf (not so much to damage, more to bait approaches), combined with retreating fair do alright here. Ivysaur has a pretty good chance of beating out most of kirby's stuff with fair, so its a nice spacer. Keep retreating like this, occasionally doing an approaching fair to dtilt or ftilt (depending on their height and habits) to punish any attempt to catch you during landing lag. Keep playing keep away like this until you get closer to an edge. At this point I suggest baiting a grounded approach with a bair or missed ftilt, so you can quickly pivot grab their attempted grab/whatever. Obviously this is far more effective if ivysaur is at chaingrab percentage.

Oh wait this is the choose your starter thread.

I'm not sure really. I'm usually comfortable starting out with squirtle or ivysaur. Either way ivysaur should probably start at 0% (ie use the whole first stock with squirtle, or begin with ivysaur) because she has the most effective spacing options (read: pivot grab setups) when people are trying to get into close range, in this case for a kirby chain grab. Otherwise kirby can just ledge camp and lol at ivysaurs lack of options in that situation. Also, kirby's comfortable zones don't work very well for ivysaur, which is another reason for us to be trying to bait that grab.

And yeaaaah dtilt is for pros. Sucks when it doesn't shield poke though.

 

[Bomber7]

Vermy and ranter have a good point. I don't see a problem in stock tanking with Squirtle, then once he's out, have Ivy and charizard come out the next stock and repeat. You will need Ivy at 0%. Sounds fine to me

 

[T-block]

Heh...I've been starting Charizard against Kirby a lot. Confirmed that you can Rock Smash out of f-throw -> u-air combo. That leaves d-throw -> u-tilt -> followup, which isn't as much of a threat imo. He's in the least danger of being gimped too. I still think Squirtle is a better choice to start - it's just that I get effin annoyed at Kirby's b-air whenever I play Squirtle lol. The Charizard > Squirtle+Ivysaur > Charizard switch order isn't too bad. I take the stage into account though. I'd use Squirtle > Ivysaur + Charizard > Squirtle over this on something like Battlefield

 

[Steeler]

honestly, in this matchup, just use who you are most comfortable with. all three do fine if you know how to abuse kirby's weak mobility + approach, but i think ivysaur is much riskier than the other two.

 

[DemonFart]

I usually start this match as Squirtle as I feel he is my best choice, I don't start with Zard for fear of getting juggled like a *****. Ivy is sorta 'meh' to me vs Kirby. I mainly switch to Charizard at higher percents so he can't get juggled well.

I HATE KIRBY'S FSMASH!

 

[Bomber7]

Well regardless of match up, I start with squirtle, then a little 50% of the time it's Squirtle + Ivy in one stock.

 

[MaTA]

I start with charizard or Ivy...its to dangerous for squirtle to start first because one grab that 50 damage.
Ivy could get out of the grab by bulletseed and charizard doesnt get juggled that bad. You can play a lot better D with Ivy and Charizard. I'll save squirtle for some kills.

 

[DemonFart]

charizard doesnt get juggled that bad. You can play a lot better D with Ivy and Charizard.

Lolwtf? Charizard is easily juggled...<.<

I'll save squirtle for some kills

Oh wow.

I don't know but that just seems like the opposite of me.

 

[Vermy]

can ivy BSeed break out of the fthrow>uair combos?

 

[MaTA]

charizard can rock smash and ivy can bullet seed out of it.

 

[Steeler]

the bs is really unreliable imo.

rock smash ***** *** on the other hand. you don't even see the rock come out, just the shards. hilarious. muuuuuuch safer than bs too.

 

[Toby.]

^ I agree with this.

Question: if we DI perfectly, what how early can we get out of kirby's throw follow ups? What's the minimum amount of damage we will be taking?

 

[SuSa]

Uhm... newsflash:

You can SDI+DI to avoid the Fthrow>uair>xxx (the xxx part is avoidable) except MAYBE utilt if you are Charizard.

Squirtle can actually pretty easily get out of that.

Charizard can get dthrow *****.

Not sure about Ivysaur.

 

[Toby.]

I thought as much.

Thanking you kindly

 

[SuSa]

I also personally start out as Ivysaur. Ivysaurs spacing game really lets you get the lead right from the start. Charizard also has a decent spacing game for this matchup as well as a great punishing game with his grabs and tilts. However Charizard at low %'s gets juggled like mad.

Squirtle isn't my favorite for this match, although he's good still. Just if you get hit by an fsmash.... say bye bye.....I find myself quickly losing a stock as Squirtle in this matchup. (And Charizard is my worst of the 3 pokemon and even he does better...)

I try not to have to use Squirtle for this matchup. Ivysaur can space and hold her own, then Charizard can tank and hold his own after juggle/gimp percents.

 

[Zigsta]

This is one of the few times I actually prefer starting as a Pokemon that's not Charizard, haha. Every now and then I might gamble on Charizard because I prefer staying away from Ivysaur in this one. That said, Ivysaur isn't that bad against Kirby. Just don't get cocky/arrogant and try to attack Kirby near the side of the stage, 'cuz Kirby players can easily suck up Ivysaur. GG.

I usually go Squirtle in this matchup. Squirtle is hard for Kirby to hit since both characters are small. As it's already been mentioned, just watch out for the fsmash.

 

[Bomber7]

This is one of the few times I actually prefer starting as a Pokemon that's not Charizard, haha. Every now and then I might gamble on Charizard because I prefer staying away from Ivysaur in this one. That said, Ivysaur isn't that bad against Kirby. Just don't get cocky/arrogant and try to attack Kirby near the side of the stage, 'cuz Kirby players can easily suck up Ivysaur. GG.

I usually go Squirtle in this matchup. Squirtle is hard for Kirby to hit since both characters are small. As it's already been mentioned, just watch out for the fsmash.

Well we had such a big discussion at Taco Bell about this, it was funny, I think those guys were happy we left, but getting to the point, as I told Zigsta, as far as I can tell from this discussion, I'm leaning to all 3. They all have their ups against kirby that make them suitable to start against Kirby, however we can also point out that they have faults that can hurt them badly. No matter who you start with, there is always a gamble so I figure because of this it doesn't really matter.

Squirtle:
He's fast and can hit the sky with Kirby however Kirby can take out a lightweight pretty easily like Squirtle

Ivysaur:
can take down an aerial based fighter like kirby and possibly kill him early, however we all have the threat of being gimped(like everything) and BS is not that affective, but even so he can be useful.

Charizard:
Rocksmash Kirby's face off and can space well, only downside is that his is a big target.

*this was just general thoughts, but I hope you get the basic idea.

More importantly I was to stress that no matter who you start with there is a gamble or a threat in one way or another that we just don't like. However, they also can bring to the field some good attributes.

It's just a thought.

 

[SuSa]

Ivysaur really is harder to gimp then people are giving her credit. Either that, or all my opponents really suck at gimping her.

You guys need to become like the Olimar boards and learn to deal with it and learn the maximum range on your up-B to wait, learn the sweetspot so you can at least stage spike if all else fails.

I find Charizard a lot easier to gimp then Ivysaur.

I say start with Squirtle or Ivysaur, because both can really handle themselves in this matchup. Squirtle might have a little trouble KO'ing however. I'd prefer Ivysaur.

 

[Bomber7]

You guys need to become like the Olimar boards and learn to deal with it and learn the maximum range on your up-B to wait, learn the sweetspot so you can at least stage spike if all else fails.

Well we do have a picture showing "vine whip recovery range" however from my experiences, I have recovered much much further than the picture suggests. Like let's take Yoshi's story, from the edge of the TV where Ivy is barely visible, that is the best range I can describe; now it doesn't always work for me at that range, but I do get those moments often where I can recover fro ma very long range, or if more technically from a longer range than what has been said.

 

[T-block]

Something is very wrong if you're finding Charizard easier to gimp than Ivysaur. The stage spike is not a threat to your opponent - as soon as you see Ivysaur move you can roll and still make her miss the edge. Your best bet is to get into stage spike position, stall with a d-air, and hope they get off the edge.

 

[Bomber7]

Ok back to the discussion. Who is best?

We can always make a simple reasonable decision now and one this thing is filled out, we can go back and edit things.

 

[Vermy]

Majority have said squirtle, with a few saying ivy.

 

[Bomber7]

k I'll go with Squirtle and Ivy and make a summary asap.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I find Charizard a lot easier to gimp then Ivysaur.

I find it a lot harder to get back to the stage as Charizard than Ivysaur. Ivysaur has good aerials for getting onto the stage with. Charizard can be pressured really easily when he's on the ledge, and he doesn't have anything particularly threatening or safe to protect himself with, while Ivysaur's B-Air and F-Air are solid.

 

[shinyspoon42]

If Ivy is on the ledge, she has a much easier time getting up then Zard does. Razor leaf onto the stage, B-air, F-air, for the lulz you can sometimes catch them with BS onto the stage if they aren't expecting it. Zard is fairly limited in what he can do, as he suffers the fly landing lag if you SS the ledge with it, so your best bet is landing with B-air or RS.

 

[Bomber7]

Characer Discussion: LINK

Ok Link's discussion starts here.

Current Starters: Squirtle and Ivy.

Why not charizard? only thoughts is Zairing ****.

 

[MaTA]

I usually always start as charizard with link. Personally I think charizard is a lot faster and once off the edge charizard can kill him really easily... one fair and pretty much dead. He can take a lot of links attacks too.

on the other subject getting back to the stage.. i find charizard the easiest. despite the fact of being a lot slower jumping he does have a lot of possiblities getting back that help me. I dont know about being pressured cause he has 2 jumps off the ledge while others have one. You can connect with a Fair or Bair super fast and hop back on. if you time it right fall off the ledge, jump and nair or even up B connecting will send them flying plust the super armor. yeah and rock smash.

 

[Vermy]

Squirtle imo.
If you've ever played a pro link, you need the aerial mobility to get past the massive projectile game. Squirtle possesses the tools to get inside of the projectile fortress safely. You can combo link fairly well, but his nair can escape that so bait dodges and punish. S3 (squirtle starter strategy) applies here well, although ivy holds her ground effectively.

Razor leaf cuts through everything, bullsh*tseed *****, ivy will do well here. Spacing with jabs and dtilt will keep link away. If you can get link off the stage, razor leaf and grab the stage with a long vinewhip. Easy kill if executed correctly.

Go with whoever you feel most comfortable. I wouldn't go Charizard first up, merely cos he's a big target and its easier to get hit. Zard hates projectiles. And Link has 3, very effective ones if used correctly. As gimpable as Link is, a smart Link main won't let you get him offstage so easily, so you need a strong combo/onstage game, he can control the stage well if he knows how to bomb plant.

 

[MaTA]

I guess thats personal preference because i would go charizard first. I wouldn't say "massive" projectile game because its no where compared to toon link. Even though he is bigger he could still get through his projectiles because he seems quicker.