Yes but not to the point where Squirtle can't do serious damage in the air with smart play. Its not like MK vs Zelda or anything like that. MK's airgame is better but Squirtle can compete.
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Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO
- Thread starter Bomber7
- Start date
Blitzmidfielder
Smash Journeyman
Squirtle's better on the ground than MK, I find. Squirtle's Uair does really well against MK, within exception of Tornado and Nair.
MK is faster on the ground? Not attack wise. Squirtle's jab is most certainly faster than anything MK has and his ftilt/Utilt I believe are faster than anything MK has. Plus he has a better/quicker grab. In terms of acutal movement speed yes MK is faster but thats not too important here.
Toby.
Smash Master
Squirtles jab is the only thing we have on the ground that is faster. MK's ftilt is only slightly slower, has better range, is a better setup tool, has transcended priority, and can't be shielded part way through like our jab.
What MK player is going to be on the ground long enough anyway? 
A good MK player will be in the air at most times.
A good MK player will be in the air at most times.
After reading everyone's posts I have come to the conclusion that Charizard will be chosen as a starter against Metaknight. However I want to call into question Squirtle's capabilities as starting. It's my personal opinion that Squirtle can start because he can go almost head to head with MK and experience little trouble (loose term). Yes MK is fast and very mobile and has very little lag in his attacks, but is what everything that has been said against Squirtle really enough to prevent him from starting. Plus it has been pointed out that Ivy is out of the question so why no start with Squirtle, and when you get worn down you change to Ivy and let her take the KO so you have a fresh Charizard?
These are just my thoughts from what I have read. I just want to get Squirtle cleared up before I make the summary.
These are just my thoughts from what I have read. I just want to get Squirtle cleared up before I make the summary.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
It comes down to who does better against MK: Squirtle or Charizard. Assuming that you will die twice, if you start with Squirtle, you switch to Ivy when your percentage gets high enough and you sacrifice Ivy. Then you have Zard, you die, and you have Squirtle. so, over the course of three lives, that's Squirtle Charizard Squirtle and you have had Squirtle out twice as much as Charizard. If you start with Charizard, you die, start life 2 with Squirtle, and switch to Ivy at the higher percentages for a sacrifice. You then start life 3 as Charizard and retain the option of quickly switching to Squirtle if your Charizard can't get anywhere. That would make the life order Charizard Squirtle Charizard, with the option to go to Squirtle.
To summarizae:
If you start with Squirtle, over the course of a three-stock fight, the Pokemon you have out for each life will be
Squirtle Charizard Squirtle.
If you start with Charizard, the order will be
Charizard Squirtle Charizard.
Since I think that Charizard does better than Squirtle, I think Charizard should be the starter. If you think Squirtle does better, starting with Charizard still retains the option of using Squirtle on you r last life if you can knock MK far enough away to change while you are Charizard. In short, I think Charizard should be the starter.
To summarizae:
If you start with Squirtle, over the course of a three-stock fight, the Pokemon you have out for each life will be
Squirtle Charizard Squirtle.
If you start with Charizard, the order will be
Charizard Squirtle Charizard.
Since I think that Charizard does better than Squirtle, I think Charizard should be the starter. If you think Squirtle does better, starting with Charizard still retains the option of using Squirtle on you r last life if you can knock MK far enough away to change while you are Charizard. In short, I think Charizard should be the starter.
Well I'm just basing my opinion on reason and experience. After all this is to start and if Squirtle is a strong starter (like myself) then I don't see why he shouldn't.
I'll make a summary tomorrow or something. Now I got things to do.
I'll make a summary tomorrow or something. Now I got things to do.
Toby.
Smash Master
Metaknight has an excellent ground and air game. They only stick to the air if its needed in the matchup. Likewise with sticking to the ground. Against squirtle its arguable that metaknight should stay grounded.What MK player is going to be on the ground long enough anyway?
A good MK player will be in the air at most times.
IMO squirtle or charizard starter is good. I use squirtle.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
The summary's already gonna be completed, but I'll throw in my two cents: I start Charizard here, mainly because I want Ivysaur to GTFO from MK. Charizard gets juggled, but hey, plenty of characters can easily juggle Charizard when they're underneath him. It kinda goes with the territory of playing Charizard in the first place.
T-block
B2B TST
gogo Squirtle
same reasons as like every other character, plus possibility of a gimp
same reasons as like every other character, plus possibility of a gimp
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I start Charizard here just so Ivysaur comes out last. Charizard has that grab release on Ness, and like t-block said, Squirtle's prety dern good at gimping Ness with Water Gun.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
I'd go Charizard. Ness is waaaaaay too easy to gimp with Flamethrower, plus we have a sick (but incredibly gay and I believe infinite) grab release on him. Flamethrower is also great for mindgames: we tap b, Ness tries PSI Magnet, we Rock Smash, and Ness learns how rockets feel when they are launched into space.
I'm gunna step back from the norm and say ivysaur.
PK fire is easy to DI out thanks to (never thought i'd say this) super effectiveness.
Razor leaf camping actually works here. (kinda)
Dtilt > all of Ness' ground game.
Not letting zard cop a bunch of fairs at early% is good, and Ivy can tack on the damage. When Ness is at 80-100%, bthrow, switch. Space and get that grab. Grab release>whatever the frick you want, -1 stock, gg Ness.
in conclusion, let Ivy tack on the damage and camp, let Zard finish him off and have Zard for the second stock too.
Zard's good to start, but Ivy seems more tactically smart.
PK fire is easy to DI out thanks to (never thought i'd say this) super effectiveness.
Razor leaf camping actually works here. (kinda)
Dtilt > all of Ness' ground game.
Not letting zard cop a bunch of fairs at early% is good, and Ivy can tack on the damage. When Ness is at 80-100%, bthrow, switch. Space and get that grab. Grab release>whatever the frick you want, -1 stock, gg Ness.
in conclusion, let Ivy tack on the damage and camp, let Zard finish him off and have Zard for the second stock too.
Zard's good to start, but Ivy seems more tactically smart.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting point. Both **** Ness pretty well, it seems.
Miles.
Smash Champion
Ivysaur all the way.
Just Typhdash spam.
Just Typhdash spam.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
I've heard that a few times. What is typhdashing?
T-block
B2B TST
nononono don't start ivysaur =(
ness' ground game isn't what's going to hurt. ivy's b-air is really the only thing that can take on ness in the air. his f-air will outrange your n-air, and everything else is too slow to land reliably. as for getting the switch off a b-throw...good luck. you're better off going for a f-air or something...ness is hard enough to grab as it is. ivy can hold his own, so it's not one-sided or anything, but i don't see why you would start as him when you could be spending more time with one of the others.
imo squirtle does a much better job of racking up damage, and the gimp possibility is always nice (i'm not just talking about water gun either). all in all, you're probably going to want to maximize your time with squirtle. if you like charizard better for some reason, then i guess it's all right, but be prepared for combos etc etc. keep in mind also that charizard is a big target for offstage d-air, and it will kill him if it connects.
ness' ground game isn't what's going to hurt. ivy's b-air is really the only thing that can take on ness in the air. his f-air will outrange your n-air, and everything else is too slow to land reliably. as for getting the switch off a b-throw...good luck. you're better off going for a f-air or something...ness is hard enough to grab as it is. ivy can hold his own, so it's not one-sided or anything, but i don't see why you would start as him when you could be spending more time with one of the others.
imo squirtle does a much better job of racking up damage, and the gimp possibility is always nice (i'm not just talking about water gun either). all in all, you're probably going to want to maximize your time with squirtle. if you like charizard better for some reason, then i guess it's all right, but be prepared for combos etc etc. keep in mind also that charizard is a big target for offstage d-air, and it will kill him if it connects.
T-block:
Charizard has a huuuuuuuuuuge grab range, landing a grab is easy. He can do retreating fairs all he wants, but Zard will grab him. He's not Wario.
Second, grab release chain on Ness. Hold R and mash A until he air releases or is at the edge.
if you choose not to air release at the edge to a dair/bair stage spike/fair, you can ground release>usmash/dsmash/dtilt/rocksmash?
Squirtle start on Ness seems pointless. Not bad, but the arguments for the other 2 seem stronger.
I should explore Ivy's options out of a grab release on Ness.
Charizard has a huuuuuuuuuuge grab range, landing a grab is easy. He can do retreating fairs all he wants, but Zard will grab him. He's not Wario.
Second, grab release chain on Ness. Hold R and mash A until he air releases or is at the edge.
if you choose not to air release at the edge to a dair/bair stage spike/fair, you can ground release>usmash/dsmash/dtilt/rocksmash?
Squirtle start on Ness seems pointless. Not bad, but the arguments for the other 2 seem stronger.
I should explore Ivy's options out of a grab release on Ness.
T-block
B2B TST
yeah i'm aware of the grab release ^^ the d-tilt at the end is the nicest part about it really. unless you're on final destination or something and you get a grab that lets you go all the way across the stage, you're probably not gonna get more than 30% out of the pummeling...charizard moves forward quite a bit with each regrab. it's not a bad start by any means though. space that rock smash ;D
squirtle start... ness no longer has aerial advantage, and that means a lot. then there's the fact that as soon as ness is off the stage without his double jump it should mean the stock. double jump f-air is a pretty common return among nesses...shield it and OoS n-air and follow up. you got a lot of possibilities.
squirtle start... ness no longer has aerial advantage, and that means a lot. then there's the fact that as soon as ness is off the stage without his double jump it should mean the stock. double jump f-air is a pretty common return among nesses...shield it and OoS n-air and follow up. you got a lot of possibilities.
Miles.
Smash Champion
You guys know that Ivysaur has Typh Dash from Grab Release right?
Whats that?
Anyway I'd say feel free to go Charizard or Squirtle. Whichever is more comfortable. Assuming you're equal with both then use Squirtle. Squirtle avoids getting comboed at low percentages like Zard does. He also just does pretty well overall against Ness and has the potential to gimp him. You should be able to KO Squirtle first and use Ivy the rest of the stock till you get to Zard which is good.
But Zard is good here too and Squirtle's airgame is going to have to be very good to beat out Ness so if you're not completely confident Zard is ok. Grabbing Ness isn't that difficult for Zard and his grab releases are powerful. The free Dtilt means that Ness isn't living much past 100%. So if you can get the first KO (which you should be able to with dtilt) then you can stock tank and you can probably get a decent amount of damage on Ness before Squirtle comes out if you play defensively.
So yeah either option is good.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Both of the Mama's Boys are incredibly easy to gimp, but Ness is way easier than Lucas because he doesn't that sick Zap Jump to Magnet Push thing. Add in that Charizard is simply built to gimp and starting stands out in bold to me. And yes, along with Tien2500, what is Typhdashing?????
Toby.
Smash Master
The mother boys aren't easy to gimp if they do it right.
See: FOW
See: FOW
T-block
B2B TST
Yeah you're definitely not going to be getting a gimp every match or anything. I don't even go often for offstage gimps as Charizard anymore. I've been d-air'd or PKT2'd too many times >_> Squirtle has it easier, but you still gotta know what you're doing.
Your best bet is starting with Squirtle for the infinite grab. That way you can easily get two Squirtle stocks.
You can also try Charizard, but his re-grab inches you forward, so it isn't as effective, but it's significantly easier to grab you.
You can also try Charizard, but his re-grab inches you forward, so it isn't as effective, but it's significantly easier to grab you.
Toby.
Smash Master
Are you sure its an infinite with squirte?
I was under the impression that we still need to dash grab.
I was under the impression that we still need to dash grab.
You definitely don't need to dash but I've only gotten it to work by walking forwards a little bit. Aren't standing infinites banned in most tournaments anyway?
T-block
B2B TST
yep...you just have to hold forward and hit z at the right time to pull it off. i think ness can air break squirtle's grab release though
BUT I COULD BE WRONG
BUT I COULD BE WRONG
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Toby: what is FOW? and what is typhdashing 
???????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????Character Discussion: Olimar
Against Olimar: Ivysaur and Charizard
Comments? Agree? Disagree?
My thoughts:
Ivysaur- I'm guessing it wouldn't hurt to start, this is a ranged game after all and I guess that Ivy wouldn't do half bad in spacing olimar. I have played an Olimar before and I used Squirtle most of the time and did great. My only concern is that Olimar can pack a punch and if he lands a good hit on you with a red pickman it's over. aside from that I will go ahead and admit that Olimar is at a disadvantage being relatively floaty and light because Ivy can blow him away pretty easily.
Charizard- I have always found playing against Olimar pretty easy when Charizard is out. Rock Smash and Flamethrower are basically the only two moves you need to be ride of pikmin not to mention Charizard packs a punch in every attack which destroys Olimar. I have no problem sending out Charizard first when it comes to this. Overall I'm basing this around the my opinion that Charizard can get rid of the Pikmen the quickest and that really helps in any good game against olimar.
*Note: OP has been updated and edited, I moved around the title some and I took the chart and put it up to date with our completed discussions.
Against Olimar: Ivysaur and Charizard
Comments? Agree? Disagree?
My thoughts:
Ivysaur- I'm guessing it wouldn't hurt to start, this is a ranged game after all and I guess that Ivy wouldn't do half bad in spacing olimar. I have played an Olimar before and I used Squirtle most of the time and did great. My only concern is that Olimar can pack a punch and if he lands a good hit on you with a red pickman it's over. aside from that I will go ahead and admit that Olimar is at a disadvantage being relatively floaty and light because Ivy can blow him away pretty easily.
Charizard- I have always found playing against Olimar pretty easy when Charizard is out. Rock Smash and Flamethrower are basically the only two moves you need to be ride of pikmin not to mention Charizard packs a punch in every attack which destroys Olimar. I have no problem sending out Charizard first when it comes to this. Overall I'm basing this around the my opinion that Charizard can get rid of the Pikmen the quickest and that really helps in any good game against olimar.
*Note: OP has been updated and edited, I moved around the title some and I took the chart and put it up to date with our completed discussions.
i know the olimar/PT matchup better than anyone else in the world by FAR
start as squirtle. take off 1.5 stocks. when you die, switch to charizard right away without worrying about the damage you take and tank out the rest of the stock as charizard while racking up damage, don't even worry about killing (if you do, cool, but it's no big deal), your main goal here is to last a minute or two to refresh squirtle
that way it'll be fully refreshed squirtle at 1 stock 0% against olimar 2 stocks very high percent, dthrow/fair him once for the kill
nearly fully refreshed squirtle at 0% against olimar 0%
you win
squirtle/olimar is one of the easiest matchups ever
start as squirtle. take off 1.5 stocks. when you die, switch to charizard right away without worrying about the damage you take and tank out the rest of the stock as charizard while racking up damage, don't even worry about killing (if you do, cool, but it's no big deal), your main goal here is to last a minute or two to refresh squirtle
that way it'll be fully refreshed squirtle at 1 stock 0% against olimar 2 stocks very high percent, dthrow/fair him once for the kill
nearly fully refreshed squirtle at 0% against olimar 0%
you win
squirtle/olimar is one of the easiest matchups ever
Toby.
Smash Master
typh...
if squirtle died on the first stock then you wouldn't need to be tanking with zard for a minute. death restores fatigue.
if squirtle died on the first stock then you wouldn't need to be tanking with zard for a minute. death restores fatigue.