Chatting with the BBR! Today's session cancelled :(

[lordhelmet]

I'm just saying what happened 5 out of 5 times for both ports.

And Bowser is weird, I ended up winning regardless of ports. Is there a way to jump out or DI for either player to bend the situation? I don't really know.

Edit: For clarification I tested on DK/MK (on FD) both as a CPU and a Human (couldn't have entered any inputs) and got the same results.

 

[T-block]

The best theory at the moment states that the outcome is determined by the victim's vertical position. Try grabbing from different heights and see if that changes anything.

 

[ADHD]

I understand the sentiment behind "letting the game decide," but when you break it down it's just coming down to random chance based off port priority and the character. We mise well flip a coin to make it 50/50, because that's just as logical.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I always thought the previous rule of "person who initiates the double KO suicide always wins" was a much better and fairer rule than "game screen decides who wins" simply because both are across-the-board type rules, but the first rule imo makes things appear to be more based on skill. Where as the second rule seems to add a bit more chance to the situation along with being much less asthetically pleasing (yes I know it may not matter but thats important to me)

I dont see it as an arbitrary buff to anyone, I just see it as, if you allow yourself to be caught in a suicide move on your last stock you deserve to lose, and if you are skilled enough to pull off said suicide on the other guys last stock, you deserve to win.

If the game said "you guys choose" then yes, it would be more fair. However, the game makes it very clear-the best that ganon can get out of it is a tie. So... we make him win? This is going directly against the game and is a completely arbitrary, game-unknown method. Why not say "in the case of a suicide, the character with the most air time wins"? Or "in the case of a suicide, the character with the bigger *** wins"? Both are equally arbitrary to your rule. The only non-arbitrary way of doing this is to accept what the game says.

I understand the sentiment behind "letting the game decide," but when you break it down it's just coming down to random chance based off port priority and the character. We mise well flip a coin to make it 50/50, because that's just as logical.

No, it's not-it's far less. There is no real argument here other than "ganon deserves an arbitrary buff for pulling this off during this time". Answered, read up.

 

[-Vocal-]

I'm always torn in this debate. First:

-Why should we let someone win if the game would not?

But then

-Apparently in the PAL version, a suicide initiator always wins.

So in another country the game DOES let suiciders win? And the only reason ours doesn't is because we're in America? It seems like a weak justification...but all the same can it be argued against? Bah, I don't know the answer to this one. Resume debating.

 

[Flayl]

Apparently in the PAL version, a suicide initiator always wins.

So in another country the game DOES let suiciders win? And the only reason ours doesn't is because we're in America? It seems like a weak justification...but all the same can it be argued against? Bah, I don't know the answer to this one. Resume debating.

What? That's not true. I mean in the ruleset yeah but not gameplay-wise.

Anyway making suicides depend on port is stupid and anti-competitive.

 

[-Vocal-]

What? That's not true. I mean in the ruleset yeah but not gameplay-wise.

Anyway making suicides depend on port is stupid and anti-competitive.

Someone misinformed me then, but this is still interesting - you guys have had success with the rule?

 

[Flayl]

Someone misinformed me then, but this is still interesting - you guys have had success with the rule?

AFAIK there hasn't been any complaints? The rule is also used in US tournaments.

 

[ADHD]

No, it's not-it's far less. There is no real argument here other than "ganon deserves an arbitrary buff for pulling this off during this time". Answered, read up.

Which is DUMB and arrogant because people assuming their rules are how it's supposed to be, and that's final. You're not removing an arbititrary buff, it's all in your mind. The character is neither buffed or nerfed- he is how he is in THAT ruleset.

 

[-Vocal-]

Which is DUMB and arrogant because people assuming their rules are how it's supposed to be, and that's final. You're not removing an arbititrary buff, it's all in your mind. The character is neither buffed or nerfed- he is how he is in THAT ruleset.

I can somewhat see what BPC's point is. The point is that most characters only gain a benefit or disadvantage from rules that apply to everyone (stages lists, LGLs, etc.) but this rule would be specific to Ganondorf (and perhaps other suiciders).

Once again, I haven't decided an opinion on the matter, just trying to mediate.

Perhaps noteworthy: MK specific LGLs.

 

[ADHD]

I can somewhat see what BPC's point is. The point is that most characters only gain a benefit or disadvantage from rules that apply to everyone (stages lists, LGLs, etc.) but this rule would be specific to Ganondorf (and perhaps other suiciders).

Once again, I haven't decided an opinion on the matter, just trying to mediate.

Perhaps noteworthy: MK specific LGLs.

..and from a competitive standpoint, something like this would be negative to the metagame. If you worked hard to pull of a clutch, last minute swallow-cide, and are punished by the victory screen for that work, then?

It's not rewarding anyone based off any standards other than luck, which is completely and downright
ridiculous if we want to remain competitive.

Edit: Okay, personally, I don't care that he's worse, or "nerfed," it just makes no sense to me to base the result of a match of SHEER random elements. It's like, wtf are we doing if we let ourselves be influenced by probabilities? If that's the case, there's no need for a BBR if we don't even have an order for the game. LUCK IS THE WORST ELEMENT TO ANY COMPETITIVE FIGHTING SERIES.

 

[-Vocal-]

..and from a competitive standpoint, something like this would be negative to the metagame. If you worked hard to pull of a clutch, last minute swallow-cide, and are punished by the victory screen for that work, then?

It's not rewarding anyone based off any standards other than luck, which is completely and downright
ridiculous if we want to remain competitive.

Edit: Okay, personally, I don't care that he's worse, or "nerfed,"it just makes no sense to me to base the result of a match of SHEER random elements.

I do agree that luck is no good in a competitive scene. It would be better if the game provided us with consistent results

 

[Deleted member]

But the game doesn't in the case of suicides, so that's why victory should go to the initiator of the suicide.

 

[-Vocal-]

But the game doesn't in the case of suicides, so that's why victory should go to the initiator of the suicide.

It's tough to say. Which is why I haven't said

 

[Eddie G]

..and from a competitive standpoint, something like this would be negative to the metagame. If you worked hard to pull of a clutch, last minute swallow-cide, and are punished by the victory screen for that work, then?

It's not rewarding anyone based off any standards other than luck, which is completely and downright ridiculous if we want to remain competitive.

Then that's honestly too bad for the initiator of the suicide (it's called a suicide for a reason). They've made the choice to switch their situation from what would be a certain loss to a 50/50 chance at a win, which is arguably still an increase to their chances of winning at that point in time, and can just as easily be seen as a competitive approach because they're using their suicide option to their benefit. The question is...should we really provide an out-of-game influence to the effect of a player's option? Can that truly be seen as a competitive approach? Or is it just a method of conditioning in order to achieve our own view of what a competitive approach is/should be?

Are you saying luck should not be, or has never been a part of competitive fighting games? What about competition in general? Sports? What about competitive Poker (irony)?

The key thing to remember here is: what is seen as competitive is, for the most part, subjective. That is the root of many issues and disagreements on here, actually. However, no one view is absolutely correct or flawless.

 

[ADHD]

Then that's honestly too bad for the initiator of the suicide (it's called a suicide for a reason). They've made the choice to switch their situation from what would be a certain loss to a 50/50 chance at a win, which is still an increase to their chances at winning, and can just as easily be seen as a competitive approach because they're using their suicide option to their benefit. The question is...should we really provide an out-of-game influence to the effect of a player's option? Can that truly be seen as a competitive approach? Or is it just a method of conditioning in order to achieve our own view of what a competitive approach is/should be?

Are you saying luck should not be, or has never been a part of competitive fighting games? What about competition in general? Sports? What about competitive Poker (irony)?

The key thing to remember here is: what is seen as competitive is, for the most part, subjective. That is the root of many issues and disagreements on here, actually. However, no one view is absolutely correct or flawless.

But the chance isn't 50/50, and apparantly from what others have been saying it's much worse.

The game is incapable of making proper decisions--look at basic brawl, where the game often thieves you of earned kills.

 

[Eddie G]

But the chance isn't 50/50, and apparantly from what others have been saying it's much worse.

The game is incapable of making proper decisions--look at basic brawl, where the game often thieves you of earned kills.

Fair enough. Could anyone give me a rough estimate of what those chances possibly are?

Basic Brawl is a horrible example to give, let's not even bring it up because it's not relevant to the type of gameplay we're discussing (singles, and possibly doubles to an extent).

Could you answer the rest of my questions please?

 

[-Vocal-]

Fair enough. Could anyone give me a rough estimate of what those chances possibly are?

Basic Brawl is a horrible example to give, let's not even bring it up because it's not relevant to the type of gameplay we're discussing (singles, and possibly doubles to an extent).

Could you answer the rest of my questions please?

I was thinking about just taking some time out today to do some thorough testing on this, just to help the discussion.

And I still love your signature XD

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

thanks for attempting to bridge the gap between Bbr and the smash community

 

[-Vocal-]

Today is Wednesday, btw

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Is there a list somewhere of the members of the BBR?

 

[Eddie G]

I was thinking about just taking some time out today to do some thorough testing on this, just to help the discussion.

And I still love your signature XD

Yeah I'll be doing a bit of the same.

And thanks. xD

Unrelated: Will you be going to Beatdown II this Saturday?

 

[ADHD]

Fair enough. Could anyone give me a rough estimate of what those chances possibly are?

Basic Brawl is a horrible example to give, let's not even bring it up because it's not relevant to the type of gameplay we're discussing (singles, and possibly doubles to an extent).

Could you answer the rest of my questions please?

We should intervene, because like sports, we've made the rules and continue to do so. Football doesn't have an underlying mind behind it to determine the wins of suicides, and field priority that changes matchup ratios from team to team based off the start.

Every official competitive scenery where opposing sides duel it out has attempted to limit luck as much as potentially possible.

 

[Eddie G]

We should intervene, because like sports, we've made the rules and continue to do so. Football doesn't have an underlying mind behind it to determine the wins of suicides, and field priority that changes matchup ratios from team to team based off the start.

Every official competitive scenery where opposing sides duel it out has attempted to limit luck as much as potentially possible.

Haha I like that answer. xD

Well that may be true, but it appears as if Football falls short of that expectation at its very root: the ball. Think about the shape and what it can sometimes cause, especially during onside kicks.

 

[-Vocal-]

Yeah I'll be doing a bit of the same.

And thanks. xD

Unrelated: Will you be going to Beatdown II this Saturday?

Beatdown? Pray tell, what is this you speak of?

 

[ADHD]

That's the gayest tourney name ever.

 

[Eddie G]

Beatdown? Pray tell, what is this you speak of?

It's some local that will also have some SSF4 going on (I'm gonna **** some noobs with Cammy *cough*). I can PM you the address/info if you like?

@ Wyatt- I know...it totally is. -.-

 

[ADHD]

I'm going to host a tournament called "Jack-it."

 

[-Vocal-]

It's some local that will also have some SSF4 going on (I'm gonna **** some noobs with Cammy *cough*). I can PM you the address/info if you like?

@ Wyatt- I know...it totally is. -.-

Yes, please do I can be certain of if I can make it up there, but I'd love to try

 

[da K.I.D.]

whens thenext time I can apply for the bbr.

 

[uhmuzing]

Is there a list somewhere of the members of the BBR?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264241

whens thenext time I can apply for the bbr.

Apparently September 16th. That's what the above link says.

 

[-Vocal-]

Does someone have the link to the previous application thread?

 

[uhmuzing]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267236

I'm bored. xD

 

[-Vocal-]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267236

I'm bored. xD

I aint mad at it :D Thanks

 

[The Real Inferno]

The next application process is set to begin immediately following the release of the tier list I believe.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Which is DUMB and arrogant because people assuming their rules are how it's supposed to be, and that's final. You're not removing an arbititrary buff, it's all in your mind. The character is neither buffed or nerfed- he is how he is in THAT ruleset.

What? We're assuming our rules are the way it's supposed to be because that's how the game describes it!

..and from a competitive standpoint, something like this would be negative to the metagame. If you worked hard to pull of a clutch, last minute swallow-cide, and are punished by the victory screen for that work, then?

Hmm, maybe you shouldn't have done it. If using sideB in that situation (offstage as ganon, opponent jumping at you) is about as good for you as using downB or FFDair according to the game, then just don't do it. Find another option. Remember, the game doesn't know it as a "win via suicide" option. The game knows it as a bad idea; we turned it into a good idea. Why not make it so that if you get hit by ganon's downB offstage at all, you forfeit your stock (regardless of if it was the sweetspot spike or not)?

It's not rewarding anyone based off any standards other than luck, which is completely and downright
ridiculous if we want to remain competitive.

Really? Judgement. I sideB you with G&W expecting something worthwhile and get a 1. Let's make a rule so that whenever I hit you with judgement, we act as if it was a 9 and you just die.

Edit: Okay, personally, I don't care that he's worse, or "nerfed," it just makes no sense to me to base the result of a match of SHEER random elements. It's like, wtf are we doing if we let ourselves be influenced by probabilities? If that's the case, there's no need for a BBR if we don't even have an order for the game. LUCK IS THE WORST ELEMENT TO ANY COMPETITIVE FIGHTING SERIES.

It's not more luck than existing "luck" moves. In fact, it's less so. If you don't use it in that exact situation, it's not luck. And even then, there are existing factors that decide it apparently (height of opponent, port priority).

 

[BSP]

What? We're assuming our rules are the way it's supposed to be because that's how the game describes it!

Being serious here, why should we, as a competitive community, go by what the game says? As we all know, Brawl was not intended to be a competitive game, therefore, the developers probably didn't care what would happen if Ganon should land that Side B offstage. (Or they would've made the result THE SAME EVERY SINGLE TIME. AFAIK, it's a random chance for ganon's loss, and sudden death) We, as competitive brawlers, can see that Ganon/Kirby/whoever successfully landed a move on the opponent, but are getting penalized for it. As players, we should be rewarding who landed the move, not going by what a non-competitive game decides.

My $.02

 

[-Vocal-]

Being serious here, why should we, as a competitive community, go by what the game says? As we all know, Brawl was not intended to be a competitive game, therefore, the developers probably didn't care what would happen if Ganon should land that Side B offstage. (Or they would've made the result THE SAME EVERY SINGLE TIME. AFAIK, it's a random chance for ganon's loss, and sudden death) We, as competitive brawlers, can see that Ganon/Kirby/whoever successfully landed a move on the opponent, but are getting penalized for it. As players, we should be rewarding who landed the move, not going by what a non-competitive game decides.

My $.02

I would be cautious with this reasoning; I see this as a slippery slope to justify changing and regulating other things in the game. Take that as you will

 

[sunshade]

Being serious here, why should we, as a competitive community, go by what the game says? As we all know, Brawl was not intended to be a competitive game, therefore, the developers probably didn't care what would happen if Ganon should land that Side B offstage. (Or they would've made the result THE SAME EVERY SINGLE TIME. AFAIK, it's a random chance for ganon's loss, and sudden death) We, as competitive brawlers, can see that Ganon/Kirby/whoever successfully landed a move on the opponent, but are getting penalized for it. As players, we should be rewarding who landed the move, not going by what a non-competitive game decides.

My $.02

This is false. Brawl was intended to be a competitive game. Sakurai wanted brawl to be played competitively but he did not want it to be played in tournament because he felt that tournaments and the fight to become the "best" would hurt the experience and fun of the game.

 

[BSP]

Do you have a link to that info? It'd be nice to see.