Charizard+: The Fire Dragon

[Alphatron]

Zard has a spacing game, but lacks the gtfo moves. There's UpB out of shield though, which is similar to Link's UpB out of shield in the fact that your opponent is being punished for hitting you by death.

I'm gonna love those boundary fixes.

 

[Rikana]

Charizard still needs some loving.

 

[Dajayman]

Charizard gets no love. It's a crying shame because he's one of the coolest pokemon ever made and he is the definitely the coolest pokemon in Brawl.

 

[Rikana]

Charizard's flame tail is running out out of fire. Zard still needs help.

 

[Sulfur]

No love, Charizard receives. :/
Anyone who actually wants to main this beastly bro is being **** blocked by PT currently... Or something along those lines.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I play Charizard, specifically, out of PT's pokeman. I am not a fan of Ivysaur or Squirtle's fighting styles much.

Getting videos however, haha. I almost never get to, or if I get a replay, I have no way to record them. I'd have to upload the Brawl replay file and have someone else record it for me. Neko has done it for me before I think, cause he's a bro.

 

[Rikana]

I currently have 2 videos of Charizard up on 5ive's youtube account. I thought I did pretty bad as those were the matches played on a laggy TV but it didn't come out as bad as I thought.

There will be many better ones coming soon once 5ive gets a hold of someone else's SD card. Or, I can just get him to send over the replays and I'll upload them myself.

I had some matches against Lucas, Toon Link, Pikachu, Lucario, Mario, Peach, Pit, and Snake I believe.

Anyways, Charizard is combo bait.

 

[GuruKid]

I'm gonna make this short and concise, because I wrote a **** essay in the Backroom boards regarding this character that was given a poetic shrug.

In my opinion the main issue with Charizard is not his size (he can take a good deal of punishment) nor his supposed lack of a GTFO move (he actually has one of the more godly and borderline-broken GTFO moves; Rock Smash), but rather his clunkiness in the air as one of the flier characters in the game.

With the possible exception of Pit (I do not have sufficient experience with this character to judge), the fliers of this game all have a fluid, efficient way to aerially outmaneuver and combat both airborne and ground opponents, be it through their number of jumps, walling/shield-pressuring aerials, aerial mobilty, or a combination of these 3 attributes. Charizard lacks all 3; he only has a half-decent third jump, has no real walling aerial anymore (fAir is a shadow of its former self), and with that big gut, his aerial mobility is just plain silly.

This weakness not only affects his onstage play; his recovery and offstage game suffers just as much. As Charizard, you can only go for a far edgeguarding move once before you gotta book it back to the stage lest you go too far and/or low and you can't make it back because...
1) his jumps don't give sufficient vertical height, and...
2) aiming and sweetspotting Fly... yeah, good luck with that. Fly not only has a really small sweetspot, the actual ledgegrab occurs after the apex of his jump as he awkwardly nudges forward and starts falling. Worse, even when you think you nail the sweetspot just right, there's a hurtbox on his wings for a couple frames which more often than not reaches above the ledge; a knowledgeable opponent can and will exploit that easily.

This weakness wouldn't be so bad if Charizard excelled in other areas. Granted, he has a great spacing game, decent combos, and Rock Smash I swear can be its own character, but with B+, that's just "meh". Other characters have a superb spacing game, great bread-and-butter combos, an overall reliable move to fall back on, AND so much more that makes them genuinely viable to win tournaments.

For a flier, Charyzardz is lacking; he needs an extra ooomph to make him a more fierce competitor, and I believe that can be done in giving him a boost in his aerial play. I proposed adding an extra jump, and some other peeps have also given good suggestions, such as increasing his aerial mobility and tweaking Fly. I would love to see all these suggestions be given a chance, but that's ultimately on the Backroom, which unfortunately they shrug off as deeming it "too drastic" of a change.



Shiet, I done wrote a mini-essay.

 

[RPGsFTW]

^It is good to see someone who knows more about the finer details about Charizard. I agree with your words.

I definitely agree with the problem Charizard has off-stage, even though he has three jumps. To me, Charizard jumps just like Snake, as in they feel heavy and jump like they have a weight holding them down. Charizard off-stage does indeed only seem to get off one aerial, maybe two or so if lucky, before it seems like you should use your second and, most likely, your third jumps PLUS his Up-B to recover.

Maybe if I were to make a suggestion, it'd be about a change in his aerial mobility/jumps. I don't know what I'd think matters more, but he is both slow in the air, which could be normal, and heavy on his jumps. I'd expect a winged creature, especially a dragon, to be able to do something regarding moving in the air correctly. =P

 

[Rikana]

Yeah. I would hardly ever use Charizard's glide attack. Well written mini-essay Guru. I really hope the WBR looks at this character as its our only chance to get something done with him.

I agree with Charizard being able to take damage like a tank but just because he can tank damage, doesn't mean he isn't combo bait. He gets juggled like crazy and he doesn't have a fast aerial to help save him. Which basically brings up my nAir suggestions. nAir has a long animation in the air even though it doesn't even have a hitbox anymore. It just lingers there and you can't do anything. Make it short and fast. The knockback is fine the way it is. And less landing lag for nAir would be amazing too. It'll actually make his nAir useful.

I like Charizard's ground game the way it is. I hope for a better aerial game. Oh, and change his dSmash. I find it useless.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I like Charizard's ground game the way it is. I hope for a better aerial game. Oh, and change his dSmash. I find it useless.

^This. And Charizard's glide should be changed along with his air game.

 

[Sulfur]

I would be ecstatic if the changes that Guru suggested happen. The problem is that no one in the backroom is going to go for it, unfortunately. From what I've seen so far, they really aren't willing to buff PT anymore. Which really blows because I refuse to use zard competitively. >.>

 

[Rikana]

I would be ecstatic if the changes that Guru suggested happen. The problem is that no one in the backroom is going to go for it, unfortunately. From what I've seen so far, they really aren't willing to buff PT anymore. Which really blows because I refuse to use zard competitively. >.>

That's why having PT and individuals were a problem to start with. If it happens in Brawl+, it might happen in Proj.M.

It will be a smarter move if the Proj.M staff makes individuals available instead of PT. Unless, they put both individuals and PT in and allow buffs for individuals, at the same time, set a "handicap" for PT players. Like.. bringing fatigue back in for PT but that's not melee'esque at all.

Regardless, I just hope it'll be individual pokemons instead of PT for Proj.M.

 

[Dajayman]

I still think it's gay that Ivy and Squirtle can get buffs but poor Charizard barely gets anything because it would make PT too powerful.

I got all excited for a minute there too. I'm losing faith in the WBR, except for Blind. Blind is too awesome. <3

 

[Thunderhorse+]

What are you guys talking about? Charizard is so good. Just use Fly/Earthquake/Belly Drum...

Wait this isn't the Heart Gold/Soul Silver thread, is it?

Charizard trades off a debilitating weakness to Stealth Rock, horrid typing (read not Fire/Dragon), and skewed base attacking stats (come on, BellyZard off of base 109 Atk with a by far superior physical movepool?) for a good killing game, solid spacing game, a slightly underwhelming combo game and offstage game, and horrible combo resistance. Cape actually thinks Charizard is by far the best of the PT Pokemon, borderline broken, solely because of the back air. While I don't think his assessment is correct (no way Charizard is remotely better than Squirtle), I don't think he's in quite as bad a position as alot of people have said. The aerial clunkiness that Guru refers to (and we've discussed this before) is balanced out by the fact that Charizard doesn't need to work nearly as hard for his kills as most of the other floaters due to his abundance of kill-potential moves and an easier time spacing them. VaNz pointed out that he didn't want to see Charizard become 'another Puff', and I'm inclined to agree with his assessment. So Charizard plays different than other fliers. That isn't a bad thing, especially considering that he's not a bad character himself. It's a trade off for his increased ability to space and his higher kill/gimp potential moves (most flyer characters don't even have a proper spike!). Hell I'd think Charizard is more viable than Ivysaur, and Ivysaur can be pretty baller when she (he?) wants to be.

Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Charizard climb up to the super high echelons of a potential B+ tier list. It's been my dream since Smash 64 to see Zard as a playable character (**** off Squirtle and Ivysaur), and I do agree with Guru about improving UpB definitely, and maybe improving his third jump as well. Down smash also seems to be a universally hated change, and I know the BR should be looking into fixing that. It's just that I see him as a pretty solid character aside from a few tweaks we are either giving him already or tried to do so but failed.

I still think it's gay that Ivy and Squirtle can get buffs but poor Charizard barely gets anything because it would make PT too powerful.

What buffs, pray tell, did Squirtle get other than a less-nerfed fair from our original epic dropkick idea?

 

[Dajayman]

Squirtle benefits pretty much from the universal changes of Brawl+ so he can combo like crazy and he has the really f***ing good aerial mobility.

Since I only use Charizard, I don't know the actual changes he's gotten. All I know is that I when I have to face a Squirtle I breath out a huge sigh...

 

[Sulfur]

So... I don't have access to a wii. Have there been any changes to zard in 7.0.2

 

[Veril]

Zard+. I've heard positive responses from every player I've spoken with so far.

You're welcome!

Charizard: from 6.0
*F-smash: 361° -> 35°
*getup roll fix to remove an infinite on Zard
*d-smash iasa significantly earlier (12 frames iirc)
*nair: 361° -> 70°
*up-b reverse grab
*aerial mobility increased

 

[Andarel]

Aerial mobility bonus sounds delicious, and I have to say I agree with the dsmash change. UpB reverse grab is also great, since that was my biggest annoyance when playing as 'zard and it just seemed random sometimes.

Sakurai angle removal should help with FSmash, too.

Testing this like the fist of the north star. Awaaaaaaaaaaay!

 

[Sulfur]

Zard+. I've heard positive responses from every player I've spoken with so far.

You're welcome!

Charizard: from 6.0
*F-smash: 361° -> 35°
*getup roll fix to remove an infinite on Zard
*d-smash iasa significantly earlier (12 frames iirc)
*nair: 361° -> 70°
*up-b reverse grab
*aerial mobility increased

Sick widdit. I'm very excited to try this all out! I'm also very glad you guys payed attention to all of the whining and *****ing we've done.

 

[Veril]

Nobody in the wbr really had solid ideas for Zard that didn't involve either something that wasn't feasible (+1jump, which also was voted down beyond it being impossible codewise), or pointless (up-b angle adjustments and increasing the d-smash growth).

Soooo I went ahead and figured it out myself. Talked to Gurukid and did a bunch of testing and... I hope you are all happy with the result.

 

[Rikana]

Thanks Veril for the changes and those who helped out in getting Charizard the alterations he needed. I have yet to try it out but I'm excited to. I still don't like the idea of dSmash setting up but maybe it'll change my mind once I get the momentum of dSmash going.

Hope all goes well.

 

[Dajayman]

Thanks Veril! These changes sound pretty cute! <3

 

[Rikana]

So I finally got the chance to try Charizard out a bit against a CPU. I like it thus far. nAir is still a risky move but its worth it for the uAir combos to rack up damage fast.

dSmash, as small as it is since you pretty much have to be next to the person, has great IASA. You can potentially kill someone with dSmash to uSmash if you read their DI correctly and JC-uSmash it. Don't "dacus" it as the opponent may slip away after the first hit of uSmash.

Gliding was a nice touch though I don't use it much still.

Reverse grab for upB is great. Charizard really needed that. Charizard's recovery is still predictable and laggy but the reverse grab will help out Charizard on the long run.

I forgot to check his get up rolls. I'll look into that later tonight.

Overall, its good. I just gotta test him playing against a human now.

 

[zuluman]

So I recently discovered that you can shield Charizard's jab combo after the first hit. I haven't tested it on everybody, but the only person that I know who CANT shield in the middle of his jab combo is Sheik (I'm sure there are more though).

This means that Charizard has fewer safe options up close in match-ups where he cant do a jab combo. do you guys have any tips for zoning Characters to keep them out of jab/grab range?

 

[Veril]

So I recently discovered that you can shield Charizard's jab combo after the first hit. I haven't tested it on everybody, but the only person that I know who CANT shield in the middle of his jab combo is Sheik (I'm sure there are more though).

This means that Charizard has fewer safe options up close in match-ups where he cant do a jab combo. do you guys have any tips for zoning Characters to keep them out of jab/grab range?

what % range? That's actually useful information to know ;p

If Sheik can't shield in the middle of the jab combo at 0 it pretty much means a third of the cast also won't be able to based on how hitstun variance generally works. Saying that she's the only one is incredibly misleading. In addition, it means that the will be a fairly low % cutoff at which point everyone is comboed by it. 0% is not an accurate measure of a moves adv with jabs, and in general moves with low bkb.

 

[zuluman]

what % range? That's actually useful information to know ;p

If Sheik can't shield in the middle of the jab combo at 0 it pretty much means a third of the cast also won't be able to based on how hitstun variance generally works. Saying that she's the only one is incredibly misleading. In addition, it means that the will be a fairly low % cutoff at which point everyone is comboed by it. 0% is not an accurate measure of a moves adv with jabs, and in general moves with low bkb.

I will try and do some testing today and give you a spiffy list of who is effected and at what %'s

Also, I did not mean to imply that Sheik was the only character who Zard's jab combo works on, but merely the only character I know of who it works on. Sorry for being misleading.

 

[Veril]

I will try and do some testing today and give you a spiffy list of who is effected and at what %'s

Also, I did not mean to imply that Sheik was the only character who Zard's jab combo works on, but merely the only character I know of who it works on. Sorry for being misleading.

Its all good.

I'll save you a little time: MK/Pika, Jiggs, Kirby, and GW will get jab comboed if Sheik does so you can skip testing them.

I'd start with DK. He's the most hitstun resistant out of the cast.

 

[DotheDiddyMonkeyDance]

I tested Charizard out the other day and I must say he is a beast but I have one question even though I probably already know the answer but why does his downsmash not send anyone anywhere? I was playing him and I believe I had my friends characters didnt matter which ones where over 116% and sent them no where. Is this because its tended to be for more of a Combo tactic? Because I also noticed that he has an incredible amount of air control. Charizard is a monster though I gotta admit espeically on stage.

 

[zuluman]

Its all good.

I'll save you a little time: MK/Pika, Jiggs, Kirby, and GW will get jab comboed if Sheik does so you can skip testing them.

I'd start with DK. He's the most hitstun resistant out of the cast.

As you said, his jab combo works on most of the cast. The characters it doesn't work on are all heavies. Also, I couldn't get his jab combo to work at any % if it didn't work at 0. The people who it didn't work on are DK, Samus, Ganon, Snake, Dedede, Bowser, and Charizard.

 

[KOkingpin]

I tested Charizard out the other day and I must say he is a beast but I have one question even though I probably already know the answer but why does his downsmash not send anyone anywhere? I was playing him and I believe I had my friends characters didnt matter which ones where over 116% and sent them no where. Is this because its tended to be for more of a Combo tactic? Because I also noticed that he has an incredible amount of air control. Charizard is a monster though I gotta admit espeically on stage.

Try using IASA frames to DSmash into Up B for KOs the shiz is legit

 

[Dajayman]

Anyone still play Charizard+ or Brawl+ for that matter? Brawl+ is pretty much dead in my area, I can thank Brawl- for that. :/

 

[Roblin]

I like Charizard

 

[Dajayman]

Who doesn't like Charizard?