Charizard+: The Fire Dragon

[Rikana]

Maybe change the angle of his dSmash. Make it near horizontal so it allows more chances for Charizard to tech chase. I wouldn't mind if Charizard gets the sped up running speed or not, but I do care about his dSmash and nAir though.

 

[Dajayman]

DDDs grab range is longer, Charizard is 2nd best non-tether grab.

Dsmash used to be a lot slower, meaning it was almost unusable. I'd like it if they modified it somehow. Either give it more power, more comboability, or give it range (kinda thinking of making it similar to DK's downb, but obviously not as good).

 

[Rikana]

Is there anyone that plays Charizard extensively..?

I'd really like the dSmash and nAir altered slightly.

 

[Rudra]

I dont mind DSmash that much since landing it means that you can land a powerful hit right afterwards. As for tech chases, I'd rather see something like his Fthrow's angle/KB being lowered to set up for them than DSmash. I agree with Nair being altered though.

 

[Sulfur]

Nair is almost useless, unless you need a really safe option because of its AC.
I really don't like Dsmash at all, it doesn't do anything useful currently because of its horrid range (imo)

I feel like he needs a slight run speed buff.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Dajayman, last I remember hearing, Charizard's grab range is the biggest non-tether in the game.

I now demand a list of grab lengths.

 

[Rikana]

Nair is almost useless, unless you need a really safe option because of its AC.
I really don't like Dsmash at all, it doesn't do anything useful currently because of its horrid range (imo)

I feel like he needs a slight run speed buff.

I like this guy.

To expand on that: nAir still isn't really safe since fAir's easier to space and has a large hitbox. I do find it useful only when the opponent is on a platform and you hit him with a nAir below. You could always just use uAir though because uAir is always better for setups and the animation ends much much faster in air than nAir does.

Basically, nAir is very useless right now.

I just remembered. Dark Sonic mentioned throw animations in the Project Melee thread. Maybe speeding up Charizard's bThrow and fThrow animations would be good too. Still DI'able but less time to react, which means more tech chases.

Anyone know how to mess around with .pac files and make one for Charizard?

 

[Plum]

Nah, I'm 100% sure DDD has the longest non tether grab in the game. It's just a hair short of Ivy's grab range (LOLgetraped).
Charizard is just behind DDD, and then iirc Zelda takes the third spot.
Though DDD and Charizard have that lovely frame 6 grab... suck it Zelda.

 

[Sulfur]

Well... there's a good chance I'm wrong, but I thought that Zard's dash grab is longer than DDD's standing.

Honestly, charizard has trouble keeping up right now. He has a few great moves, but I just feel like his options are INCREDIBLY limited in some matchups.

 

[Plum]

Well here's one thing to consider.

Charizard is a tough case when it comes to any sort of buff because he's not just his own character. It's not like giving Mario or Sonic a buff, because when you change Charizard you are also changing Pokemon Trainer. Think about what playing Pokemon Trainer offers you in comparison to just Charizard. You get whatever strengths Charizard offer you during a specific mathup, and you also get to use Squirtle and Ivysaur. You can't alleviate Charizard's weaknesses when he's on his own without running the risk that Pokemon Trainer becomes a big notch better.

Now I understand that Pokemon Trainer isn't quite the same as Zelda/Sheik because switching isn't up to you once you end a stock. However with smart play Pokemon Trainer probably have greater matchup resistance in terms of preventing counterpicks than Zelda/Sheik. It's easy enough to select your starting Pokemon based on your opponent's characters. In theory you should always be having two stocks per game using a character with an advantageous matchup. Zelda and Sheik do have some weaknesses in common which allows a group of characters to counter both of them. However the individual Pokemon are unique enough to have different character weaknesses for the most part, so you're never guaranteed to counter multiple Pokemon like you are with Zelda/Sheik.

Now I'm starting to feel like I'm rambling a little bit, so I'll end it here on this to wrap it up.
The question you have to ask is whether or not Charizard is good enough to be played. Now he may be the weakest of the Pokemon, and iirc Guru feels that way too. So maybe he is a character who could use a little something. But does Pokemon Trainer need anything?
It's like fixing all of Zelda's weaknesses so people who play solo Zelda are better off, but then giving the people who consider Down B a move free gifts to an already viable strategy. Perhaps to a different level as well, considering not as many characters are actually in a position to counter all three Pokemon; at least not as many who counter both Zelda/Sheik.

Food for thought, or the thoughts of the hungry denied.

The mulberry tree will decide.

When ice cars reign supreme.

And the glory of Rarth is seen.

Obv

 

[Rikana]

But you're leaving out the point where people don't want to use PT. Instead, we want to use individual pokemons. There's probably more people who use individual pokemon compared to people who actually use PT (Ivysaur and Squirtle is probably used much more than Charizard). There's hardly anyone who plays Charizard and/or PT extensively. Why not consider the minor fixes/buffs to increase the usage of both characters, Charizard and PT, by a bit?

Charizard doesn't feel that fun to me right now. I just want him to be fun, regardless if he makes it to top tier or not. More tech chases means more reading = more satisfaction/fun. It's not going to lead into guaranteed kills.

 

[Sulfur]

QUOTE

Umm... I don't see why buffing charizard up to the level of the other 2 would make PT that much better.
Currently, switching to zard in the middle of a match is a bad thing, unless it's a very advantageous matchup for him.

His few combos are totally DI dependent, and his spacing isn't that incredible that he can keep people out forever.... idk I just feel like he doesn't really have a good matchup.. at least that I've seen.

EDIT: I'm not asking for any buffs, or at least not trying to whine. i just think that zard is missing anything that would make him fun to play, and he can' keep up...

 

[Plum]

People who ignore Pokemon Trainer over the single Pokemon could be harming themselves. Think about the advantageous of having three characters in one. I'm just saying, That's a huge resistance when it comes to being properly counterpicked. Consensus in the Backroom when we were discussing Charizard is that he probably is the weakest Pokemon right now. But there was a general agreement that he's still a viable character.

The reason he's probably the weakest Pokemon is because there's nothing he does extremely well. Squirtle and Ivysaur both excell at a few things, which gives them matchups they handle extremely well in despite it also meaning they might suffer in others. Charizard is a character who can do anything you want him to do, but never as good as other characters. When a character can be used in any situation, but never quite to the level you would want them to be they aren't going to be as good as a character who has diverse strengths and weaknesses.

But Pokemon Trainer is already three viable characters. Buffing one of those characters with the intention of helping a solo Pokemon is going to buff Pokemon Trainer no matter what. Even if you don't think that buffing the Trainer is bad if it means buffing Charizard, we're at a point in B+ where characters who don't need buffs shouldn't get them. For the sake of keeping Pokemon Trainer, an already above average character, where he currently stands in terms of the rest of the cast, you have to just accept that Charizard might have to remain an average character.

 

[Sulfur]

Consensus in the Backroom when we were discussing Charizard is that he probably is the weakest Pokemon right now. But there was a general agreement that he's still a viable character.

The reason he's probably the weakest Pokemon is because there's nothing he does extremely well. Charizard is a character who can do anything you want him to do, but never as good as other characters. When a character can be used in any situation, but never quite to the level you would want them to be.

But Pokemon Trainer is already three viable characters. Buffing one of those characters with the intention of helping a solo Pokemon is going to buff Pokemon Trainer no matter what. Even if you don't think that buffing the Trainer is bad if it means buffing Charizard, we're at a point in B+ where characters who don't need buffs shouldn't get them. For the sake of keeping Pokemon Trainer, an already above average character, where he currently stands in terms of the rest of the cast, you have to just accept that Charizard might have to remain an average character.

But the point is, there is currently absolutely no reason to pick Charizard over any other character that I can find. The only reason I use him is because he's a part of PT and he's awesome as a character, I would never choose him by himself in a competitive situation because his moveset is so underwhelming.

I would fully support changing Charizard to where he is worth using, and has defining characteristics to him that give him bad/good matchups. Currently, he has (imo) bad matchups and even matchups. He really doesn't do well against any characters.

He can gimp well
He has multiple jumps
He can space decently
He has decent damage racking capabillities (mostly rock smash)
He has an amazing grab range
He can juggle very well

He has terrible air speed
He doesn't have that great of a recovery
He can't approach easily
He has few combos
He is very large. Tons of trouble escaping combos.

He has fine things about him, but I just really don't enjoy playing him. I feel like he gets walked on by some characters, and maybe has a 60:40 on two characters.

 

[Rikana]

But the point is, there is currently absolutely no reason to pick Charizard over any other character that I can find. The only reason I use him is because he's a part of PT and he's awesome as a character, I would never choose him by himself in a competitive situation because his moveset is so underwhelming.

I would fully support changing Charizard to where he is worth using, and has defining characteristics to him that give him bad/good matchups. Currently, he has (imo) bad matchups and even matchups. He really doesn't do well against any characters.

He can gimp well
He has multiple jumps
He can space decently
He has decent damage racking capabillities (mostly rock smash)
He has an amazing grab range
He can juggle very well

He has terrible air speed
He doesn't have that great of a recovery From my perspective, its not great at all. Its horrible. Glide is super slow and upB is predictable and laggy.
He can't approach easily
He has few combos
He is very large. Tons of trouble escaping combos.

He has fine things about him, but I just really don't enjoy playing him. I feel like he gets walked on by some characters, and maybe has a 60:40 on two characters.

Took the words out of my mouth. Although, I don't play PT, but I do play Charizard because I want him to get better and because I like Charizard.

Plum, I agree with what you said. The things what Charizard can do, you'll find other characters doing much better. Charizard is basically a watered down version of many good things which actually just makes him suck.

I really want to use him. Just him, not PT.

People who ignore Pokemon Trainer over the single Pokemon could be harming themselves. Think about the advantageous of having three characters in one.

But what about those who just want to use individual Pokemons? You can't leave that option out because its available to us. I don't intend on switching to PT nor do I have any interest in using Squirtle or Ivysaur.

I understand you're near gold, but the suggestions are minor enough that its not gonna change Charizard drastically. Judging from the amount of responses, hardly anyone uses Charizard or even cares what's done to him. I haven't spoken until now because I wanted to see how Charizard will develop without my feedback (well, also because Charizard was never really fun to play with so I didn't use him much until recently). I trusted the backroom and just wanted to play a game where I like to use characters that are fun. And now's the only chance I have to fix him up a bit before Charizard is finalized. I feel like I need to bring out my immature side a bit. I'm not gonna bother with Charizard at all if he doesn't get the changes. He's just doesn't feel Charizard enough to me.

So basically my list up to date:

-Make nAir animation faster. It lasts too long in air to pull out another aerial. Slower than Rob's? Something around there. Not too slow though.

-dSmash is useless. Give it growth, change the angle, do whatever. Its just useless at the moment. I'd suggest changing the angle. I'd like it to have 10 degree/170 degree angle knockbacks. Set knockback or something with growth.. doesn't matter but I'd like the 10degree/170degree angles cause it allows for more tech chasing.

-running speed. Make it a bit faster.

-bThrow and fThrow (got this idea from Dark Sonic) has faster animations so you can mix it up for more tech chases and harder to DI.

-his getup roll and tech rolls distance. You guys are already informed and working on that so no biggie.

 

[Alphatron]

I agree on dsmash sucking, but at least it sets up for combos now. It does look wierd as hell to have Chairzard slam the ground and not have the opponent go anywhere. But hey. Nobody has really bothered to play with the new dsmash all that much, so no one really knows all the follow ups and setups out of it.

 

[Rikana]

I agree on dsmash sucking, but at least it sets up for combos now. It does look wierd as hell to have Chairzard slam the ground and not have the opponent go anywhere. But hey. Nobody has really bothered to play with the new dsmash all that much, so no one really knows all the follow ups and setups out of it.

Actually, Charizard's dSmash doesn't set up now because of the altered hitstun from 5.0 to 6.0. The opponents can do something before Charizard can finish his dSmash. So, its useless.

 

[Dajayman]

I'd like it's killing power back tbh, it seems weird that it simply pops people up a bit (into nothing apparently) when I'm used to it killing. Maybe a bit less killing power than before because of the speedup, but it should still have kill potential.

 

[Alphatron]

No setups then? If that's the case then let's get Veril in here to confirm this (or someone who has the frame data on that move).

If the move doesn't setup into anything, then it really needs to be fixed. It was intended to allow for Chairzard to have follow ups. But if it doesn't, then the fix didn't work as intended.

 

[Rikana]

To expand further on dSmash. I'd agree with Dajayman. It just doesn't feel right to make it a setup. Either give it killing potential or make them launch in an angle which forces the opponent to land on the floor which leads to more reading and tech chases (with a bit of killing potential maybe?). I rather have the second option as his fSmash is good enough for me.

 

[Alphatron]

Yeah, I won't have time to test dsmash setups today. Can anyone else do it since I'll be busy tommorow? If the dsmash truly has no followups, then it needs to be fixed. It wasn't that great in vbrawl and fsmash kills better. Does anyone have good ideas for this move?

 

[Sulfur]

Yeah, I won't have time to test dsmash setups today. Can anyone else do it since I'll be busy tommorow? If the dsmash truly has no followups, then it needs to be fixed. It wasn't that great in vbrawl and fsmash kills better. Does anyone have good ideas for this move?

I'd love for it to be a GTFO move similar to ROB's dsmash. However, it would need a bit more range and maybe some more speed to do that effectively. I would be fine with it never killing, because he has other options for that. He needs (imo) another way to defend himself when under pressure.

 

[Rikana]

I'd love for it to be a GTFO move similar to ROB's dsmash. However, it would need a bit more range and maybe some more speed to do that effectively. I would be fine with it never killing, because he has other options for that. He needs (imo) another way to defend himself when under pressure.

Sped up nAir should solve that. :D

 

[HolyNightmare]

Sped up nAir should solve that. :D

+1 to this or more knockback on nair, it's a really slow move with no knockback nor any combo potential. It need to be better :/

 

[Deleted member]

Dsmash was at least amazing for me to use when I uncommonly pulled it off. A free rocksmash to the face is something I liked for using such a risky move.

The sped up Nair and it having useful KB for KO/combo/whatever purposes is a good idea.
Also, is the hitbox for his Nair kinda small? I mean, it has zero disjoint on it which means if your opponent avoids Nair, then they are in range to punish it and at least trade hits with it.

I'd like to bring his glide up too. Would a steeper angle to ascend/descend on it be a good idea?
(With the glide start up, glide speed, and glide attack remaing the same)

 

[Rikana]

My list up to date:

-Make nAir animation faster. It lasts too long in air to pull out another aerial. Slower than Rob's? Something around there. Not too slow though. Knockback increase is optional. It'd be nice to have a fast GTFO aerial since Charizard is always pressured. drpepper111 brought up the zero disjoints in this attack. Increasing the hitbox would be nice as well but its also option as I only use it when I know I can be safe. Still, it'll be a nice addition. The animation speed is a must though. Knockback and hitbox alterations is a nice addition.

-dSmash is useless. Give it growth, change the angle, do whatever. Its just useless at the moment. I'd suggest changing the angle. I'd like it to have 10 degree/170 degree angle knockbacks. Set knockback or something with growth.. doesn't matter but I'd like the 10degree/170degree angles cause it allows for more tech chasing.

-running speed. Make it a bit faster.

-bThrow and fThrow (got this idea from Dark Sonic) has faster animations so you can mix it up for more tech chases and harder to DI.

-glide speed can be faster.

-his getup roll and tech rolls distance. You guys are already informed and working on that so no biggie.

So what I really care about is his nAir and dSmash now. Running speed, glide speed, and throw animations can be a nice touch.

@drpepper111. I don't think making his glide steeper with the same glide speed would do any good as glide is never a way to approach. Its too predictable and slow. Changing up the glide speed of course would change that. Glide speed can be added to the list I suppose.

 

[Deleted member]

So what I really care about is his nAir and dSmash now. Running speed, glide speed, and throw animations can be a nice touch.

@drpepper111. I don't think making his glide steeper with the same glide speed would do any good as glide is never a way to approach. Its too predictable and slow. Changing up the glide speed of course would change that. Glide speed can be added to the list I suppose.

Not an approach to combo or anything. A steeper dive on that glide would let Charizard recover easier from his glide. His glide speed is also quite pitiful though... you're right on that.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Nair is fine imo. Right now, SH backwards nair looks to be a very promising thing to do, as it is basically a free Sonic hitandrun. It also combos very well compared to something like Bair (even though it combos well). Thing about it is it must be fastfalled, it's got too much endlag not to. Though I'm just picking Char back up, I loved using him since 4.0.

Dsmash I'm unsure about really.

 

[Rikana]

There has yet to be any response from the staff whether or not changes will happen. Are you guys even going to look at this?

I'm losing interest in Brawl+.

 

[Alphatron]

^You mean on Charizard specifically or the game in general? Zard is kind of unpopular. I wouldn't be surprised if none of the staff actually looked at this topic.

 

[Plum]

I mentioned Charizard and that everyone here said he sucks in the back room.
There wasn't really a response.
Take that as you will.
Guru also brought up Charizard a while ago, and there was some legit discussion on him and people brought up potential things he could be given in the next set. However all of that talk died out, and nothing really went through except fixing Snake's infinite on him with Dthrow (by changing Charizard's getup roll).

 

[Rikana]

edit: Since there's hardly any discussion going on about him, why not just offer him the changes I suggested? It's not going to make him so much better. And it would definitely make him more fun. The changes would hardly affect anyone since rarely anyone plays him/against him.

 

[Alphatron]

Well, Zard is pretty lame to play as and I chose Bowser instead. I should really get around to those dsmash setups soon. I'll hopefully do it tomorrow. And yes, nair is awful. I'm not a fan of making every move on a character useful but dang...


Just editing my post to say how much nair sucks.

 

[Alphatron]

Double posting.

Testing dsmash on Mario, Bowser, Jiggs, and Fox so far, it has no guarenteed followups. This is fine. With no DI, it allows Charizard to set up uair, UpB (awesome attack), or fair if the character isn't Jigglypuff.

By simply holding the control stick away from Charizard, his dsmash becomes a move that does a mere 7% dmg(Bowser crouches it) that doesn't really do anything. Charizard starts moving before the opponent can react out of hitstun. But you aren't getting off ANY aerial on a competent player. And by the time he reaches them on the ground, they will be able to react. They don't even need to tech. I suppose this doesn't make the move 100% useless as he can predict their action and then do something. But meh. The reward isn't worth it.

Now nair? It's just hilariously bad. At low percent, the opponent can punish Charizard on hit. At high percent, it doesn't kill or GTFO. And the sweetspot is useless and in a ridiculous location.

 

[Dajayman]

The very least I'd like down with nair is make it so that it has less aerial end lag, it's just like Ike's/Lucario's nair in vBrawl.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I really don't see why Nair is bad. =/

 

[Rikana]

1. Super long animation in air.
2. You have to be right next to the opponent for it to hit.
3. Easily punished.
4. Can combo early game into something simple but its **** late game.
5. Why even use nAir at all when fAir and uAir does nAir's job much better? fAir can be spaced and uAir can combo.

The backroom isn't probably gonna do **** about Charizard from the looks of it.

I thank Plum for bringing up Charizard to the backroom though. Your effort is appreciated. I'll have to wait for ProjectM to come out so I can play a character which I like and is probably going to be lots of fun in Melee's mechanics.

 

[Dajayman]

I have tested Project M a bit, Charizard has a mean wavedash. XD
He's still buggy though, he auto-freezes the game if he faces Pikachu. o_O

 

[Rikana]

Still no action being taken on Charizard? I'm gonna keep bringing this up.

He's still a big target that yells come hit me, I'm combo bait without any GTFO moves to save my life.

 

[Sulfur]

Or a powerful combo/spacing game to save him from his size and speed.