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Charizard+: The Fire Dragon

Dajayman

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Charizard+: The Fire Dragon

Introduction
Hello! This is a guide to using Charizard in Brawl+. In Brawl, Charizard was only playable with PT but in Brawl+ you can choose either to play him and the other two pokemon as the normal PT or play as only Charizard as a "wild pokemon". This guide will only be about Charizard, not Squirtle and Ivysaur. I will also assume you know how to play Charizard from Brawl and have general knowledge of his moves and capabilities in Brawl. If you need a PT guide for Brawl+, go here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230270


Changes from Brawl to Brawl+

Charizard has little changes that are character specific to him, most of his changes are due to universal changes in Brawl+ that affected everyone. One of the most important change made was the loss of pokemon fatigue. This means Charizard will never tire, never be more vulnerable or have less attack power. Other than that, there were little specific changes made to Charizard.

One last specific change made to Charizard when he is a wild pokemon is that his down b does NOTHING!


Here is the chart of current physics changes to Charizard from Brawl to Brawl+:

SH: 1.000
FH: 1.025
FF: 1.200
DGrav: 1.150
Grav: 0.950

The universal changes of Brawl+ has however made Charizard a far better character. What Charizard excels most is juggling, damage-racking, grabbing, tech chasing, punishing, and gimping. I will have a specific section for each of these. Also things like ALR (Aerial Lag Reduction) makes Charizard's aerial alot quicker and stale moves no longer existing means Charizard can KO alot easier now.

Charizard has also gained some issues as well. Charizard is a HUGE target and heavy, meaning he will get comboed and hit easily, and it will hurt. Charizard also lacks a "combo breaker" move like Luigi's nair, so the only way to escape is to jump which luckily you have two jumps.

Pros

  • Very heavy weight means surviving longer. Combined with DI, two jumps, a glide (it's slow, but slow is better than no glide), and upb, Charizard will have a hard time dying.
  • Strong, powerful moves. Charizard can easily KO, and makes Charizard one of the last characters you want to make a mistake in front of.
  • Most of his moves have nice range to them, and a good amount of moves are quick for a heavy weight.
  • Has a good amount of moves to tech chase effectively with like rock smash.
  • Rock smash and flamethrower are nice, safe, and disjointed ways to rack up a good amount of damage.
  • Has the second largest non-tether grab range in the game, plus none of his grabs are laggy.
  • Great at juggling most characters, excellent at juggling heavies and fast fallers.
  • Excellent at gimping.
  • Powerful and surprisingly quick spike, startup is quicker than most normal spikes.
Cons

  • Heavy weight and largeness make Charizard one of the easiest characters to combo/juggle in the game. Expect a good beatdown if you get hit.
  • Closest thing to a projectile Charizard has is flamethrower. Lack of a projectile and being a huge target makes Charizard very vulnerable to projectiles.
  • Up b gains very little distance for his recovery. If Charizard loses his jumps and glide, he will have a hard time getting back. This means Charizard is very vulnerable if he gets gimped.




How to fight with Charizard
The section you have been waiting for. This section will explain the best ways to fight with Charizard and the strategies to use against all kinds of opponents.

Learn to DI
I cannot stress how important this is. If you don't learn to DI, you won't only just die earlier but you'll take a serious amount of damage during a combo. If you learn to DI properly you will get out of combos quicker than normal which is very important to Charizard since he is so vulnerable to combos. With the great amount of hitstun in Brawl+ compared to Brawl, DI is your only tool to surviving. No more momentum canceling, your only tool in surviving from a KO is proper DI. If you want to continue using Charizard, then LEARN TO DI!!!

Recovering
Another important thing you must learn. Due to Charizard having a nice pair of wings and having a normal fallspeed, you have a couple of ways to get back to the stage. The normal way consists of simply using your two jumps and upb (if necessary) to get back. If you DI properly, most of the time you will only need one or two jumps. One of the most important things you need to learn is sweetspotting the ledge when using upb. Unless you played 64/Melee, you will probably be used to auto-snapping your recovery in Brawl. In Brawl+, auto-snapping is gone. You must learn the distance Charizard's upb goes so you can sweetspot the edge. Only land on the ledge if you have to since Charizard's landing after his upb is quite laggy.

While you are recovering, your opponent will not be chilling on the stage and just letting you get back, he is obviously going to try to keep you off of the stage. If your opponent goes offstage for a gimp, Charizard has quick and nice ranged aerials to protect him. Charizard has the advantage of having two jumps, so don't be afraid to be alittle defensive when recovering. If the opponent is throwing out projectiles, there is not much to do. Just try to avoid the projectiles. One thing you must really be careful for is opponents edgehogging. Charizard is very vulnerable to this strategy since his upb has alot of landing lag. If you are forced to land on the stage, expect to be punished for it, there is not much you can do about this. Try to avoid this situation as much as possible.

One last option in recovering is using Charizard's glide. Only use this if you are in a top corner of the stage. Charizard's glide is terribly slow, but it covers a good amount of distance. Use this only once in a while to mix up your recovery so it isn't so predictable because it is pretty easy to gimp. Always remember to laglessly cancel the glide by either glide attacking or pressing jump right before you land on the ground, otherwise you will land action-canceled like you missed a tech and will be very vulnerable. Charizard has a pretty powerful glide attack, but it lacks range so you can use this somewhat defensively during your descent.


Approaching
Approaching is the most important offensive strategy you need to learn. Before you start doing flashy combos and finishers, you first need to get in range of your opponent. You have two types of approaches: aerial and ground approaches. In general aerial approaches are safer but can't usually be followed up, while ground approaches are a little more risky but you can start a combo off most ground approaches. Characters with projectiles like Falco will usually force you to approach in the air most of the time.

Charizard has a few ground approaches. Although Charizard is a heavy weight, he has a very fast dash (7th fastest in the game, tied with Pikachu). Use Charizard's fast dash to your advantage. The best moves to approach with on the ground are usmash and dash-canceled dtilt. Both moves have nice range, compliment and used well out of Charizard's dash, and are quick. Both moves can pop opponents in the air for aerial abuse, but dtilt will only pop an opponent up if you hit with Charizard's neck (otherwise the sweetspot of him snapping with his jaws knocks them a good distance away) so you need to space it so you are close to your opponent (think Roy). Another attack that can be used is dash attack. This move also pops up opponents in the air, but should be used rarely because it slows Charizard momentum down alot and can easily be punished if shielded or dodged.

One last thing Charizard can do in a ground approach is a grab. Charizard's long, quick grab range should be abused, but don't abuse it too much otherwise the opponent will start dodging and punishing your grab attempts. An uthrow will throw the opponent in the air for some uair juggles (his throw is alittle high for any other aerial, and opponents be thrown too high at higher percents) and any other throw will be used to get the opponent off stage. Remember that Charizard's dthrow can be used to kill at high percents, but the dthrow only does 6% damage. It is best to use a fthrow instead of a dthrow from low to mid-high percents because it will do more damage (10%) and go about the same distance as a dthrow.

Charizard has a nice arsenal of aerial approaches. Charizard's fair, bair, dair, rock smash, and flamethrower are the options Charizard has in the air. All of these except dair are pretty quick and have nice range. What dair is used for however is popping an opponent up for some aerial abuse, it's riskier than any other move though. Charizard's fair, bair, and rock smash have excellent range, are pretty quick, and will knock the opponent very far. Rock smash can also be spaced further so the debris of the smashed rock can hit the opponents at a safe distance. Also if you are close to your opponent, rock smash deals 30% damage when it hits with the headbutt and all the debris from the rock. Flamethrower is the longest ranged move Charizard can throw out. You can either space it and do about 5-10% damage or you can use it next to your opponent to rack about 15-30% damage. Just be cafeful when using flamethrower next to an opponent because they can DI in towards you and counter you.

Comboing
Charizard doesn't have too many true combos due to the fact he is a hard hitter. Charizard however isn't completely lacking in the combo department. Before I go on, most of the combos I am going to discuss will probably NOT be true combos, but will be close enough to where you'd have to be Luigi to get out of them.


Combo setup
Charizard's main way of comboing is popping an opponent in the air to be followed by aerials. Charizard's most effective way of comboing is by juggling the opponent. But first you need to get the opponent in the air. The following moves can effectively pop an opponent in the air to be followed up:

Uthrow - Very easy to get a grab off of an opponent due to Charizard's nice grab range, probably the easiest way to get an opponent in the air. Unfortunately this only works best on heavies since a uthrow will send any other weight class too high once they reach mid percents.

Utilt - Works well in most percents. Can combo into itself a couple of times at low percents, then it always knocks opponents a small distance in the air for aerial followups until really high percents. Great vertical range, can hit opponents standing on platforms. Lacks horizontal range though.

Usmash - Only works in low percents as an aerial setup, maybe medium percents on fast fallers and heavies. Otherwise it knocks them too far up. Still used well out of a dash and it has better range and damage than utilt.

Dash Attack - Perfect aerial setup until high percents. Not the best mve to use due to the risk, use sparingly.

Grounded dair - The perfect aerial setup at medium through high percents. The amount of hitstun from the dair gives you all the time in the world to follow it up.

Falling uair - Works at almost any percent. Combos into utilt at low-medium percents and combos into more uair juggles at higher percents.

Continuing the combo
After setting them up with one of the previous moves, you might want to combo them a bit more before you finish. Unfortunately, Charizard doesn't have to many options here but here are the following way to continue comboing:

Utilt - Utilt to continue a setup only happens at low percents or at most medium-high on heavies/fast fallers. Use utilt when you are on the ground and you just knocked your opponent up alittle bit with moves like dair, falling uair, and utilt at low percents.

Usmash- Same thing as utilt but at 0% to low percents, otherwise you will knock the opponent way too high to continue a combo.

Uair - The best way to continue combos. You can link so many uairs together for some serious juggling, together with Charizard's second jump you can do even more!

Finish them!
After you are done juggling your opponent, you want to finish the combo with something strong that will knock the opponent away. Here are some finishers to use on your opponent:

Fair/Bair - Both are similar enough so I will group them together. A great option. This will definately send the opponent flying and will most likely end up with you edgeguarding the opponent. Try to sweetspot with the bair for maximum effect.

Rock Smash - As if getting comboed wasn't enough, getting a 30% damage rock in your face for more damage isn't too pleasant for the opponent. Getting a nice hit off rock smash and your entire combo will cause massive damage. Plus the bonus of knocking the opponent far, and again this will most likely setup for an edgeguard. Even if you don't hit well with rock smash, the debris will still cause some minor damage and your opponent will be too far to punish you greatly.

Fly - A nice move to finish after uair juggles up in the air. I have killed light weights and even Wario with a fly finisher on top of the screen. Fly packs a mean punch if the final hit hits, but otherwise it doesn't. Make sure you aim it right otherwise you will miss that final hit and you will be punished badly since the landing lag is long.

Tech Chasing
Charizard has a pretty nice tech chasing game. Charizard has a variety of moves to set up tech chases, Charizard has a nice, quick dash and dash dance to follow your opponent, and a good amount of moves to punish an opponent for a good prediction of your opponent's tech direction.

In order to actually start your tech chasing, you need to force your opponent into a situation where they must tech. In order to do this you need to slightly pop your opponent above the ground so that their only option is to tech during their hitstun. Here are the following moves that do this:

Fthrow - At lower percents, otherwise you might throw to far.

Dash Attack - Works best at low percents.

3rd jab - Works best on lighties/floaties at lower percents and heavies/fast fallers at up until high percents.

Rock Smash - Works best on heavies/faster fallers at low percents.

Nair - Sourspot should work at almost any percent against anyone, sweetspot most likely sends opponent too far at higher percents but could possibly work at low percents.

Fair - Lower percents, otherwise it might send the opponent too far.

Now that you have the tech chase setup, you will need to chase your opponent's tech. This part you'll need to be able to read your opponent well, it may take a couple tech situations for you to learn how your opponent techs. Limiting your opponent's tech options, like making them tech near the edge of the stage or on a platform can help you out. Here are the moves that you can use to punish your opponent's tech chase:

Grab - An excellent option. Charizard's dash grab is excellent and you can abuse it in tech chases if you read your opponent's tech well.

Rock Smash/Flamethrower - Another excellent option. These two moves will really rack up some intense damage on the opponent if you read their tech very well. Rock smash will kill at high percents.

Usmash - A nice juggle setup at low percents and a killer at higher percents.

Fsmash - Hard to do, you must read your opponent VERY well. Pivoting or dash canceling into fsmash will really help here, so learn to do those ATs.

Dtilt- Depending on how you want to space it, the dtilt will either pop an opponent up or send them away. A good option.

Dair - Pops your opponent up for an aerial followup.

Bair - I find that if I fail at predicting a tech and they roll past me, a sh'd bair can hit them still. Since this is based on reaction, you will have very little time to space it and will most likely hit with the sourspot, but some damage is better than none. If you manage to hit with the sweetspot, then good sh*t! You will most likely have a edgeguard situation.

Nair - Not the best move to use for damage or knockback during a tech chase, but it is very accurate and will most likely hit the opponent. You will most likely hit with the sourspot which can possibly setup for another tech chase, which is another bonus.

Edgeguarding
Charizard's edgeguarding is VERY VERY good. Charizard has one of, if not THE best edgeguarding in Brawl+. Since Charizard is a heavy hitter and good damage racker, you'll see that you'll be sending your opponent offstage in no time. Here are the moves to use in edgeguarding.

Onstage:
Dtilt - Probably the best onstage option due to its knockback, range, and trajectory. Good for predictable recoveries trying to sweetspot the ledge like Captain Falcon, the Mario bros., etc. Make sure to space it so you hit with the sweetspot, but if you misspace it luckily the sourspot can combo into the sweetspot at some percents or the very least combo into a fair.

Ftilt - A decent option. Almost the same as dtilt, but ftilt has a little higher hitbox, it's slower than dtilt, and has a slightly more upwards trajectory. Make sure to sweetspot with the flame.

Fsmash - A risky, but rewarding option. This will kill 99% of the time. Spacing this helps greatly.

Offatage:

Fair - Fair is easily the best gimper in the game, I think it's even better than MK's dair. Fair's excellent range, excellent priority, low tracjectory, and good knockback make it deadly offstage. And at certain percents you can combo a fair into another fair so that the opponent has no chance of making it back.

Dair - A strong spike, will kill your opponent past medium percents.

Bair - Bair becomes very strong at higher percents when sweetspotted and will kill. Use it to finish an opponent, works better than fair if facing a very hard to gimp character like MK or Jiggs.

Nair - While it has a lot worse knockback for gimping than fair or bair, this move makes Charizard a wall and an opponent will have a hard time getting past Charizard. The sweetspot still gimps nicely and the sourspot will effectively gimp characters like Link or even possibly give you that extra inch of knockback that will make the opponent just barely miss getting back.
*Note with nair* Nair has A LOT of ending lag in the air, think of it like Lucario's nair. Be aware of this when using this offstage so you don't kill yourself, never use nair too low or you'll die.





Matchups


 

Rudra

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I'm guessing that two others for Squirtle+ and Ivysaur+ will be made eventually since they can be played as individuals, and the PT+ topic will be for their combined usage. Anyways, good luck with this guide! =3

Though, where are you going to go from here? Are you going to add/take information on what you have listed in a certain order or add anything that comes up in the upcoming discussions?
 

Mattnumbers

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I don't really play Charizard much but I love SHdairs with him. Also I have a kickass Charizard texture (the one where he looks like the ultimate chimera)
 

PaintedGhost

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I just picked up Charizard. Those godly juggles won me over. I look forward to discussing some matchups :D. Oh and a quick question. Does anybody actually use flamethrower? I really can't find anything that it excels at.
 

cman

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I just picked up Charizard. Those godly juggles won me over. I look forward to discussing some matchups :D. Oh and a quick question. Does anybody actually use flamethrower? I really can't find anything that it excels at.
It's really good at damage building against certain recoveries, if for some reason you can't/don't want to spike them.
 

Palpi

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Against a recovery like Ike, Marth, Captain Falcon (because of yes) and some other flamethrower can be effective. It also can be effect if you run away and wave bounce it toward them if they follow you for the approach.
 

Rudra

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Against a recovery like Ike, Marth, Captain Falcon (because of yes) and some other flamethrower can be effective. It also can be effect if you run away and wave bounce it toward them if they follow you for the approach.
Pretty much this. The Spacies (mostly Fox/Wolf) also fall victim to flamethrower too.
 

Dajayman

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I sometimes use flamethrower as a tech chaser too. While it racks up damage nicely when you use is closeby, the opponent can DI out of it and counter-attack. Used at a range, it can do about 10% damage and will outrange any attack. Still, its best use is as an edgeguard for bad recoveries.
 

GuruKid

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Charizard also lacks a "combo breaker" move like Luigi's nair, so the only way to escape is to jump which luckily you have two jumps.
Charizard used Fly!
- Up B is a well-known and useful combo breaker. It still retains its Super Armor frames from regular brawl (during the first third of the ascent, approximately).

And...

Charizard used Rock Smash!
- This move has counter-like properties; time and space the move so that the opponent hits the boulder, and BAM. They're greeted with cocoa pebbles, and you may or may not get hit (depending on your spacing and timing).


Also, on recovering from top, don't be afraid to clear some room with flamethrower on your way down; helps push back from certain would-be edgeguarders.

Overall good stuff; about time the guides for the individual pogeys be made. Looking forward to seeing this guide grow.
 

Dajayman

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I can see Fly as maybe a combo breaker move, but you would be very vulnerable if you miss or it doesn't with the final power hit.

Rock Smash has some start up lag before you can use the move (he has to pull the rock out (from nowhere)), so it would not be good as a combo breaker. I'm talking about combos that aren't exactly true combos, but are close enough where you need a quick move like Luigi's nair (I love that move :)) to get out. Most "combos" in Brawl+ are escapable with DI and quick combo breakers. If you can pull out rock smash in time, you would've been able to pull out a fair/bair before then.
 

Christopher Rodriguez

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As far as I know charizard is definitely a momentum character, he's good with grab pressure and his jab/dtilt are pretty good and fast overall. Reminds me a bit of melee bowser (who sometimes seems like he has options, but is highly restricted in bad matchups)
 

Rudra

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What about Dash Canceled Jabs and DSmash?
The jabs could be canceled to lead into a grab (or the third hit can be used to pop up opponents), and DSmash (while being restricted only to grounded opponents) has good range and can pop the opponent into the air.
 

Dajayman

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I was thinking about adding dash canceled jabs in as an approach, since his jab has good range (for a jab), works well out of a dash, and has a variety of uses. I will add this in later.

I'm not too sure about dsmash. It does have a bit of startup, but I suppose it's okay. Also something I don't like is you can't do a dsmash while crouching (tapping down on the cstick will make you dtilt instead of a dsmash like in Melee, something they didn't fix from vBrawl).
 

Swordplay

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Yo Pimp format for the OP. I REALLY like it.

Mind if I use it for another character guide?

=================================================

BTW. Charzard=chucknorris status.

Anyway while im here I find my self wishing I could combo into up-b. It seems like it has a lot of potential as a kill move. How do you usually set this up? can it be done? is it worth the risk/reward?
 

Moozle

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Has any part of Charizard's glide been changed? If this was even a little faster I feel like it would be a lot better and would help change his recover game up.
 

Christopher Rodriguez

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I'm not sure, but its definitely usable offensively if you find places for it. People usually just sit there and smile, then take it whenever I try. (usually slightly offstage)
 

Rudra

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Anyway while im here I find my self wishing I could combo into up-b. It seems like it has a lot of potential as a kill move. How do you usually set this up? can it be done? is it worth the risk/reward?
I dont think it can be done easily (if at all), though it may work after a Uair on someone at low/mid % (or mid % if you hit with the ending of Uair). Perhaps you could follow up with an UpB for a kill, which works nicely on stages with small ceilings, but I dont think its really worth the risk. GuruKid mentioned that it has a use as a counter attack, so it may be useful there if they're too close to pull out Rock Smash.
 

Dajayman

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Best setup for upb is after uair juggles. Sometimes when I am uair juggling and I know the next uair will barely miss, I'll upb to finish the juggles. I think upb might be a good move to use oos, kind of like Samus's upb. My one concern with using upb as an offensive move is if the opponent DI's out of it before the final hit. Charizard has a good amount of lag when he lands from his freefall that begs to be punished. I can also see this being a nice counter attack if the super armor frames are used wisely.

Edit: Thanks SP, this is my first guide so it's nice to know the format works. I don't mind you using it. If you ever come back to Chicago, you'll be pleased to know Brawl+ is starting out fine here. All of my friends and I are getting hooked to it and I plan on promoting Brawl+ friendlies in tournaments to attarct more people.
 

Dajayman

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Sorry for the double post, but I feel that it is necessary to bump this topic. The bump is justified since I spent some time putting up the combo section. Feedback, comments, or suggestions would be appreciated.
 

Palpi

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Good stuff about the combos. You might want to add stuff about tech-chases after you finish a combo. I don't play charizard in brawl+, but I know he has fairly good ground range in his ftilt and dtilt, so if you hit someone away you could crouch cancel into a dtilt or ftilt if range permits.
 

GuruKid

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I can see Fly as maybe a combo breaker move, but you would be very vulnerable if you miss or it doesn't with the final power hit.
High risk for high reward; in my experience, about half of combos occur high in the air, and many characters will attempt to finish you with a Star KO. Why not turn that to an advantage by up-B'ing them to the stars? Sure it's tough to pull off (you have to DI crazy well to gain the positional advantage

Rock Smash has some start up lag before you can use the move (he has to pull the rock out (from nowhere)), so it would not be good as a combo breaker. I'm talking about combos that aren't exactly true combos, but are close enough where you need a quick move like Luigi's nair (I love that move :)) to get out. Most "combos" in Brawl+ are escapable with DI and quick combo breakers. If you can pull out rock smash in time, you would've been able to pull out a fair/bair before then.


Untouched, the rock's initial hit comes out relatively late (frame 24). but the rock can be "hit" from frame 3; that's where the "combo breaker" comes into play. And from what I've seen, depending on where and when the rock is hit, the opponent will either suffer the initial hit (the one that usually sends them flying) or the flying rocks, or both. Sure, it's no Luigi nair, but it nonetheless maintains incredible use as a "counter". And actually, I use this method moreso than Fly.

Frame data source (in case someone thinks I'm fudging the data): http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224610


On the OP, under "Combo Setup" you should add in u-throw.
Under "Continuing The Combo" you should add in fair, since the weaker part of the attack (the end of the flame) can chain nicely into another move (namely a sweetspotted fair).
Under "Finishing Them!" add in Fly (for awesome roofs).

The guide is coming along nicely. Keep it up!
 

Dajayman

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I'll keep those suggestions in mind Guru and I'll test the rock smash when I get the chance.

I was playing more Brawl+ this weekend and it seems fthrow and bthrow can be comboed into a fair on heavies, even at like around 100% since the hitstun is enough and the knockback isn't too far. This worked on Link very well (it was basically death for Link since he was well off the stage with a throw + fair), and I'll see if it holds true to the other heavies. Anyone else can test this as well. Bthrow seems to be alittle better at this than fthrow since bthrow has less knockback.

I am going to test f/bthrow into fair combo on heavies abit more first before I add them into the combo section. I'd just like to be sure.
]

Edit: I updated the guide with uthrow, fly, and the fair part (I just added a side note under fair finisher). Thanks Guru, I forgot about those.
 

The Phantom Smasher

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I did a little bit of testing with the bthrow on pretty much every heavy character, and this combo seemed pretty consistent up to at least 50% with most going higher than this. Also, it definitely did lead to excellent edge guarding opportunities.
 

Clever_Sleazoid

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I love Charizard.

Now that summer is coming I may start working on a combo video for him. I've said this before for 2 other characters, but I shall NOT ABANDON LIZARDON!

AND HE'S NOT A DRAGON! HE'S A MOTHA****ING LIZARD! A really badass one. Although I do have a Valoo texture for him...
 

Thunderhorse+

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peein' in all there buttz
I don't care if he isn't a dragon type in game.
He should be.

Anyway, I've sort of unofficially third-ed Charizard since vBrawl came out, but I've really only used my main and secondary, Falco and Sonic, in even remotely competitive situations, and I'm looking to increase my repetiore. Since Smash 64, I've always dreamed of a Charizard fighter, and I'm glad B+ has made him not only able to go solo, but usable.

Now my question is this: Falco has a few matchups where...well, while not unbeatable, are just aggravating to fight. Sonic does nothing to help this, so I'm wondering whether I could use Charizard to patch up these holes. I am of course talking about ICs/Kirby/Squirtle, and maybe ROB/Marth as well (though the latter two I could probably use Falco for once I learn match-ups and play smart).

I know it's a bit early to be talking matchups right now, especially with the full game not even out yet, but I would appreciate some input, even if not specific matchup advice, as to how Charizard fairs against these characters and whether it would even be worth it to pursue using Charizard as a CP to those matchups.

If not, I can always just use Marth lol.
 

The Phantom Smasher

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
33
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
He should be.

Anyway, I've sort of unofficially third-ed Charizard since vBrawl came out, but I've really only used my main and secondary, Falco and Sonic, in even remotely competitive situations, and I'm looking to increase my repetiore. Since Smash 64, I've always dreamed of a Charizard fighter, and I'm glad B+ has made him not only able to go solo, but usable.

Now my question is this: Falco has a few matchups where...well, while not unbeatable, are just aggravating to fight. Sonic does nothing to help this, so I'm wondering whether I could use Charizard to patch up these holes. I am of course talking about ICs/Kirby/Squirtle, and maybe ROB/Marth as well (though the latter two I could probably use Falco for once I learn match-ups and play smart).

I know it's a bit early to be talking matchups right now, especially with the full game not even out yet, but I would appreciate some input, even if not specific matchup advice, as to how Charizard fairs against these characters and whether it would even be worth it to pursue using Charizard as a CP to those matchups.

If not, I can always just use Marth lol.
While I agree that it's too early to discuss matchups much, based my experience so far I think those would probably be some of Charizard's harder matchups. Squirtle especially seems to be a difficult matchup, so as much fun as Charizard is, I'm not sure he's worth it if you just want him to counter those characters. =(
 

Dajayman

Banned via Administration
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Feb 14, 2008
Messages
281
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Chicago, Illinois
I played Squirtle alot, and if he starts juggling you expect alot of damage (I have taken 0 - 110% once) . Fortunately Charizard can juggle Squirtle pretty well too, basically it is whoever can juggle who first which I think Charizard is better starting a juggle (Squirtle has his tiny utilt or falling uair, Charizard has a ton of better options).

Even though fire knockback is decreased on Squirtle, there is only little difference. That being said Squirtle is easily gimped with an fair or bair once he is offstage. What you need to look out most from Squirtle is his awesome aerial game and shell shifting techniques. Hydroplane (shell shift -> usmash) is deadly since Charizard gets increased knockback from water, I died at around 80% from a semi-charged hydroplane.
 

The Phantom Smasher

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
33
Location
Tuscaloosa, AL
I'm liking the damage buff for Dthrow.
Yeah, the damage buff is definitely nice, but I still think I'll probably either uthrow or bthrow for the combos unless they're at a really high percent.

Edit: Does anyone want to start discussing matchups in here? I know we don't have a final version yet, but I doubt the matchups will change too much between now and then.
 
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