Charizard Tactical Discussion

[feardragon64]

I might be wrong about this but fly might even be able to get zard out of some multi-hit moves such as R.O.B.'s dsmash when shielded. Try having zard shield while R.O.B. dsmashes and up+b oos. He should take very minimal damage and, at a high enough percent, get a safe kill! =]

 

[Retro Gaming]

If I recall correctly though, the one thing that sepperates Charizard and Marth is that Marth has invlunerability frames starting from the beggining of the attack. I believe Charizard is vulnerable for a frames before the super armour starts. I'll try to find it in the super armour thread.

Charizard, contributed by NoVa
UP-B (Fly): from start to disabled (blinking in air), lasts 1.08sec.

Starts at Frame 4 (0.0666...sec into the attack)
Ends at Frame 13 (0.21666...sec into the attack).
Consists of 9 SA Frames, or 0.15sec worth of SA Frames, which consists of 13% of the UP-B.

 

[abit_rusty]

His down-throw is useful at high % since its the throw with the most knockback.

This.

His dthrow is great for KO-ing. I personally find uthrow the least useful.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Uthrow is stronger than Dthrow. Dthrow is relatively easy to DI well. It's pretty useful versus Ivysaur, though.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Uthrow is stronger than Dthrow. Dthrow is relatively easy to DI well. It's pretty useful versus Ivysaur, though.

It's easy to DI both throw's, d-throw is better for KOing, but you'll be using up-throw more since it does more damage and a little less knockback and also sets up for juggling.

Fly does seem underused for its potential. I can also see it being good on plat form stages, to minimize the lag while hitting your opponent up high.

 

[Charizard92]

Charizard's down smash doesn't seem so bad. It has range and a good amount of power. His down-throw is useful at high % since its the throw with the most knockback. Glide attack to jab or grab is also decent enough for some use. I use all of Charizards moves, that only gives him more potential, I don't understand why Charizard92 doesn't like those moves. Its fine though, just saying I find those moves good in certain situations.

Again, Dsmash can only hit grounded opponents, and it isn't very ranged.
Glide, it isn't because I hate it, it's because it can be substituted for air jumps most of the time, and it isn't as much of a necessity as Pit Or Meta.
Fly, it is more punishable, and the least practical of Charizard's B moves. It gets a 3 because it's a viable option, just not the ultimate one.
Oh, and By the way, a 5 is something that you should use often, and can use over and over again (aka spam). Bair is the only aerial somewhat capable of this, and three of his four throws are too.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Dsmash has more range than expected, its not so slow, and people wont try to punish it because they are gonna be on the defensive (running the hell away), and your oponent is not gonna jump when they are at dsmash's range ..its not stellar but its ok... i have got some surprise kills with it... the thing here is to surprise your oponent.. even some people have been like... WTF.. which attack is that??? .. i gotta tell them its the dsmash.. LOL
Fly is kinda underrated... the superarmor is cool, and it has the ko potential.. but it has some bad points, its laggy afterwards ( you must fastfall to minimize the punishment posibilities), and if you hit with the low knockback part you are gonna get punished... maybe it has more potential than i believe to scape combos

 

[Charizard92]

Again, the range is somewhat horrible, and while it isn't as laggy than Fsmash, it is still laggy. It is just a bad move. I'll edit fly though.

 

[Steeler]

dsmash has good range. it extends past the little earthquake animation. it's a good roll punisher, but that's it. dtilt is quicker and just as powerful.

 

[pyrimadines]

I've been wondering what the effect of a D-smash upon a person on the ledge is? My guess is that it pops them upwards if at all, it isn't a spike right? If this move can be executed a certain distance from the ledge due to its range, this might be a viable option for a person stalling too long on the ledge.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, as soon as somebody has a way of going around the fact that Dsmash can't hit aerial foes tell me.

 

[Steeler]

make sure the opponent is on the ground?

and best way to do that is to punish something

like a roll

 

[Itburns]

Im finding that kills with dsmash are happening alot more often with me. The reasoning is I dont use it as much which keeps it fresh for when the percentages get high and my other moves have lost alot K.O potential.

just my 2cents.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

And the surprise effect of Dsmash makes it a good surprise kill move if you never use it, any of charizard's attacks has its properties(range,hitbox,startup) so your oponnent wont expect it and BAM!!! Gets earthquaked
I think it lingers for a while
And you may never understimate a 100 base power move

 

[Charizard92]

Well, there are two problems with your 100 base power argument:
A: this isn't Pokemon, Rock Smash would have no attack purposes whatsoever otherwise
B: It may not be earthquake. The name of the actual move is unknown, but it looks similar to Metagross' attack, which is known (Earthquake)

Also, Dsmash is a punisher, which aren't as recommended as other moves. Here is kinda the reason some attacks are rated high, and low:

Practicality: Compare Fthrow to Fsmash on this one. Fthrow happens quickly, your opponent pretty much has to suffer it, and it can easily link to combos. Fsmash, on the other hand, is extremely slow and hard to hit with, especially charged, and is ranked low.

Range: Charizard has only one move which I say "don't use it" and it's for a good reason, Charizard has some pretty large and disjointed hit boxes. Flamethrower, Rock Smash, the grab, and most of his aerials have a rather large area it affects. The fact that Dsmash only hits grounded opponents horribly limits this.

Spamability: Ever wounder why none of Charizard's specials are 5? This factor, how good is it at spamming? With his specials, they are all HORRIBLE at it. Rock smash executes too slow, Fly has a weird hit box effect, and flamethrower has an anti-spam mechanic. Grabs can easily be linked, and Bair is rather good at this thing. Rock smash, not so much.

Overall hurt: Now, there is two types of hurt, instant hurt and overall hurt. Instant hurt means how much an attack actually does at that instant (Rock Smash is incredibly high here). Once past that instant of pain, do you have the ability to link it to something else? Overall hurt means how much pain you can potentially deliver AFTER and attack. Grabs can easily be chained together, adding to the overall hurt. So far, we have found no combos with Rocksmash, so while the instant hurt is high, the overall hurt is rather low...

OK, how is that?

 

[Toby.]

Well, there are two problems with your 100 base power argument:
A: this isn't Pokemon, Rock Smash would have no attack purposes whatsoever otherwise
B: It may not be earthquake. The name of the actual move is unknown, but it looks similar to Metagross' attack, which is known (Earthquake)

Spamability: Ever wounder why none of Charizard's specials are 5? This factor, how good is it at spamming? With his specials, they are all HORRIBLE at it. Rock smash executes too slow, Fly has a weird hit box effect, and flamethrower has an anti-spam mechanic. Grabs can easily be linked, and Bair is rather good at this thing. Rock smash, not so much.

Overall hurt: Now, there is two types of hurt, instant hurt and overall hurt. Instant hurt means how much an attack actually does at that instant (Rock Smash is incredibly high here). Once past that instant of pain, do you have the ability to link it to something else? Overall hurt means how much pain you can potentially deliver AFTER and attack. Grabs can easily be chained together, adding to the overall hurt. So far, we have found no combos with Rocksmash, so while the instant hurt is high, the overall hurt is rather low...

OK, how is that?

Largely irrelevent to be honest. Firstly, a break down of PkTrainerCris' JOKE doesn't refute his point in any way at all. Secondly, you don't spam a move used as a punisher. You definitely didn't need to go on a rant about charizard's special attacks when they are completely unrelated to the discussion.

Bringing up the point of range is also silly because the hitbox on dsmash extends a good distance on either side. I don't see how you can complain about its horizontal coverage very much at all

Also, if you are using earthquake properly it doesn't matter that it only affects people in the air. It's like saying vine whip is a useless attack because it doesn't hit people on the ground.

I assume the talk about instand hurt and overall hurt is meant to also point at why dsmash isn't very good. You didn't make that connection in your post. I think that 16% is a pretty good deal really. Since you're going to be pretty hard pressed finding a lot of 'overall hurt' options in brawl, and because charizard has very few reliable strings as it is, I think we can be happy with any attack that has such good damage and vertical knockback.

Oh and if you are looking for options out of rock smash, up-smash or a ftilt can be pretty reliable depending on the percentage. Or a grab.

Down smash is not an amazing move, but mindlessly bashing it certainly isn't going to get you or the board anywhere. Lines such as "OK, as soon as somebody has a way of going around the fact that Dsmash can't hit aerial foes tell me. " doesn't prove your point or help the discussion.

Also, why aren't punishers as recommended as other moves?

/rant

 

[Steeler]

just describe when you should use a move, not numerate it...that tells us very little.

i'll work on descriptions for all three, and yall can pitch in.

 

[Charizard92]

Right, the numerations were a scale on how much I recommend it, so a 1 was beyond ill recommendation and a 5 was complete recommendation. The fact that I have to cope with only using CPU opponents means I'm not sure WHEN you should use a move though. I got most of the stuff I say as a pooled version of what you guys say and what I have experienced (with practical punching bags). Nsilder, you don't have to write an entire description on Charizard, I got that for you. It's before the move dissection thingy (which' I'm thinking about getting rid of). How do you think of my analysis though?

 

[Steeler]

um well there's a lot of information in it, so that's always good. your pros/cons thing is pretty good.

 

[Charizard92]

Thank you, I tried the Pros and Cons thread, twice (first was for pathetic reasons, the second is for a new one). The move dissection, Yeah, well, again, the numbers are recommendation levels, I'm not sure when you should use them. I am seriously thinking about removing them, but it's your guide, you can do that yourself. Everything else is OK though, I did that according to how you were going to organize your guide.

 

[Steeler]

well actually it looks like it's fearmy's guide.

 

[Charizard92]

I posted it on your guide frame and Fearmy's guide. Yours was first.

Days later: OK, I entered a tournament yesterday and, well, I won only once. Considering my low expectations, that was better than I thought. I did have a realization on a few things:
1: NEVER enter a free for all or team tournament with PT
2: Rolling is going to be a rather common mode of transport for Charizard.
3: If you manage to get near an opponent when shielding, NOW IS THE TIME TO GRAB!
4: Charizard can perform something similar to a chain throw, especially since most people will try to keep themselves from lying on the ground.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I don't know how fast this is in terms of frames, but I am extremely convinced that Charizard's jab comes out as fast as Diddy's jab.

 

[Adriel]

According to firemario149's frame data thread, Diddy's jab comes out in 3 frames and Charizard's comes out in 4 frames.

 

[Miles.]

Chill yoai boy.

 

[Steeler]

that thread is wrong on a lot of stuff.

btw <3 rock smash. idk how fast it is, but i've broken out of sheik's tilt lock with it before. lol.

oh **** i just thought of something...shouldn't fly be able to break out of the tilt lock? and the sheik will already be di'ing toward you, so they could take all of fly's hits...

 

[Toby.]

that thread is wrong on a lot of stuff.

btw <3 rock smash. idk how fast it is, but i've broken out of sheik's tilt lock with it before. lol.

oh **** i just thought of something...shouldn't fly be able to break out of the tilt lock? and the sheik will already be di'ing toward you, so they could take all of fly's hits...

NinjaLink using Pokemon Trainer - he does the same sort of thing against fox's utilt. I dont know how the speed compares, but its validation of the same principle.

Btw there are two matches, and they're good. I suggest people watch them.

 

[Steeler]

that'll be useful when we do the fox discussion.

 

[typh]

never use charizard's dthrow

its garbage

 

[Miles.]

Just DI up yeah we know.

But near an edge of a level its good.

 

[typh]

no its garbage

when a peach can survive it at 150% at the very edge of smashville

its garbage

it doesnt do **** for damage either

 

[Miles.]

Realllyy?

Thats hard to believe about teh peach.


Its situational.

Dont be a ****** Typh.

Oh and MSKing said hes better than you.

Then he said he uses snake to beat your PT.

And that you beat him in PT ditto.

So I explained to him that means you are the better PT.

He cried.

I beat him online but thats online...
He does have some flashy combos.

He plays online a lot, you can tell.

He was crushed when I told him a lot of his stuff only works online.

I love being a Gary.

 

[typh]

did he mention i 3 stocked him

i challenged him to find a ranked socal player that agreed with him so once he does that i'll agree that he's the best PT

 

[Miles.]

I wasnt overly impressed.
Hes good, best no.

He couldnt beat my fox.

Oh yeah.

And mad lulz at "King Hopping" (thinks he invented it..., he showed me.
Then I should him teh tutorial vid.

I think he /wrist.

LMAOROFLZBBQQUEER!!

 

[zhao_guang]

MS King is a good player, but his attitude is ridiculous. He says he's the third best Snake, then I two stocked him online with luigi

 

[RichBrown]

msking is garbage, typh is the best pt ever.

if you DI, charizards Dthrow will not kill. Use it in the first round of a tournament against people who don't know how to DI, then after that, retire it. RichBrown know.



and if any of you ever play me, i WILL upsmash your charizard without the slightest bit of hesitation.

 

[CHOMPY]

Is it even worth it to glide attack with Charizard?

 

[Steeler]

if you fight against someone that doesn't have disjointed aerials:

yes.

it's actually pretty strong. i've had an instance where i've accidentally started gliding right as the opponent approached to edgeguard, and then killed them with a glide attack.

so satisfying. the running joke here is that charizard has no glide attack, considering how often the mks and pit here use it, and how i rarely use it as an attack.

basically, it's good in air to air vs no disjoints but pretty bad against grounded opponents. shieldgrab ftl. zard should have fire come out of his *** like in fly or something.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

its good too to cancel the lag on landing your glide, so you can do an attack after landing with zero lag... but to do that you have to glide first... which is not common among PT mains (I do it regularly, it doesnt hurt my game , and i kinda like it)

 

[The Derrit]

Something that I will do (albeit rarely) is use the glide attack as a cancel so i can have back my aerial mobility for the second double jump. So just start gliding in, and as someone goes to intercept your course, use glide attack and approach from another way. I find sometimes its good to throw people off, and of course to keep yourself alive