Character Competitive Impressions

[Jabejazz]

If we are talking about projectiles, I think Fire Breath and Flamethrower are quite good. You would be surprised how much they shut down. They can even reflect gordos.

Color me surprised.

 

[Pyr]

Color me surprised.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Twas a half joke.

But really though those two really are the safest way to do it. It creates a wall of Dedede tears.

Then again most things do.

 

[JWrecks]

Speaking of charizard I'm looking to switch things up and main a heavy character in smash4 until mewto comes out, what do you guys feel about the competitive viability of some of the heavier characters?

Right now I feel like all the heavy characters feel kinda gimped, bowser hits like a freight train but due to his giant hit box and laggy moves I feel like if your reads are off just a few times ( which I have trouble seeing not happening ) your getting punished really hard.

King DDD feels really awful to me, he felt like an awesome grappler in brawl now he just feels mediocre and overly reliant on bait and punish games.

Oh and on an unrelated side note I think a lot of people are sleeping on wario at the moment, I'm not saying he's top ten but waft is still really scary and the bike got buffed so much its kind of ridiculous now. His damage is also pretty damn good in smash4 and he combos relatively well. I'm not saying top ten but he's definitely overlooked.

 

[Smog Frog]

if yomi is your thing then ganon is your man, but if you want a heavy with lots of tools try out zard

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Speaking of charizard I'm looking to switch things up and main a heavy character in smash4 until mewto comes out, what do you guys feel about the competitive viability of some of the heavier characters?

Right now I feel like all the heavy characters feel kinda gimped, bowser hits like a freight train but due to his giant hit box and laggy moves I feel like if your reads are off just a few times ( which I have trouble seeing not happening ) your getting punished really hard.

King DDD feels really awful to me, he felt like an awesome grappler in brawl now he just feels mediocre and overly reliant on bait and punish games.

Oh and on an unrelated side note I think a lot of people are sleeping on wario at the moment, I'm not saying he's top ten but waft is still really scary and the bike got buffed so much its kind of ridiculous now. His damage is also pretty damn good in smash4 and he combos relatively well. I'm not saying top ten but he's definitely overlooked.

What's your playstyle? Bowser is probably the most offensive of the bunch while Charizard is the most defensive. DK is somewhere in the middle while Dedede can do both. In my opinions of course.

 

[Killtrox]

Speaking of charizard I'm looking to switch things up and main a heavy character in smash4 until mewto comes out, what do you guys feel about the competitive viability of some of the heavier characters?

Right now I feel like all the heavy characters feel kinda gimped, bowser hits like a freight train but due to his giant hit box and laggy moves I feel like if your reads are off just a few times ( which I have trouble seeing not happening ) your getting punished really hard.

King DDD feels really awful to me, he felt like an awesome grappler in brawl now he just feels mediocre and overly reliant on bait and punish games.

Oh and on an unrelated side note I think a lot of people are sleeping on wario at the moment, I'm not saying he's top ten but waft is still really scary and the bike got buffed so much its kind of ridiculous now. His damage is also pretty damn good in smash4 and he combos relatively well. I'm not saying top ten but he's definitely overlooked.

I agree that Wario seems stronger than most people think. I played one for the first time today in For Glory, and honestly wasn't exactly sure how to deal with some of his moves. I imagine his tournament play might be a bit weaker since his bike is so dominant on stages without platforms, though.

I think the most surprising thing about him was how much his bike can eat. I was trying Link out and discovered that bombs were the only thing that would actually stop the bike, while a fully-charged arrow and the boomerang just get absorbed. He's also pretty light for being a fat guy. I wasn't expecting his recovery to be as useful as it was, and he was surviving smash attacks all the way up to 110%. I'd like to play against more Warios because he kind of feels like an anomaly at the moment.

 

[Trifroze]

I think that its a good move, probably top 5-8 at least but one thing sucks for that projectile: Ending lag and linear.
There is a lot of room to get hit after a missed thoron and a little startup animation that can be the difference between a hit and a miss. I think the fact that the move can only be used in a straight line make it a worse than the tops projectile. I see the versatility in the use of different version, the problem is that you need to charge it to that version so your opponent see it coming. Once you charge the projectile, you can't go back to a better version suited for the situation. Also the fact that you can't use it after I think 21 *charge* and have to wait 8 sec. to recharge is a good weakness.
So the move has around 4 weakness that are mostly not found in other projectile.

I don't mean the move is bad... like I said its probably around top 5 top 8 best projectile in the game but not tops material imo.

Good points, but thunder variations aren't really to be compared to spammable projectile. They're mainly used for punish, reads and pressure and they can easily (for a projectile) kill, setup for about 25-30% damage overall and force the opponent to shield, roll or spotdodge. Having thoron charged can also change how much the opponent respects your actions, which is sometimes a very strong passive effect in your favor. Whereas thunder variations lack some qualities, spammable ones lack the ability to reliably kill and make the opponent truly afraid of you. Now whether you think this kind of a projectile or a spammable one is better is a different matter. If we talk about spammables, I would opt for Villager's slingshot or Yoshi's egg. Honorable mention to Samus' charge shot, and while it kills better than thoron, it travels slower which in my opinion makes it not quite as good. It's still amazing though.

Rip in peace grenades. Rip in peace Snake and your godly tilts too.

Also what comes to being off topic, I think discussing the most useful projectile in the game is fairly closely related to character competitive discussion. It leads to ideas and expands how we view certain characters and scenarios.

 

[Luco]

I do think lag makes all projectiles significantly better, and PKT the most of all of them. This might play into perceptions of the move, people talking about it from different contexts.

I only play offline, and I think PKT is a really good move but not "best-in-game" or such.

Oi! I won an offline tournament with Ness once recently #neveragain

And I dunno @ Kofu , i've seen Captain Falcon's upB traverse some rather incredible distances. It always surprises me how good it is @.@

I know this is often a bad defence but I would like to point out I never said it was the best in the game and wasn't sure where it actually sits, but I stand by that it's a good projectile at long range, juggling or offstage. I'll concede that characters like Link, Yoshi, prolly mario, etc. can cancel it with Dair, but only a couple of them don't have to time it; and considering the way people tend to move in juggling situations, Ness should be having the bolt approach you from a 45 degree angle upwards or downwards, sometimes from the side, which makes the situation more complex. I think the manouverability of the bolt is why it's good. The fact that it can net you quite a bit of offstage percentage (like on a good day you can get 20%+ out of PKT bolts alone before the opponent makes it to the edge, which is good in situations where going out and using Fair/Nair might not be the best strategy (sup Marth upB, haven't been stage spiked by you in too long <3 ) ) or even kill some characters with the tail is pretty neat.

Eh, I dunno. I fancy it to be quite a useful projectile, there are better ones in the game but most of them can only be used for a specific niche - projectile harassment at long range/spacing in some situations. Would you really say it's not up there in the list of 'good' projectiles when it can fulfill this niche (albeit to a lesser extent) and quite a bit more? Is it just Ness' tools that make it less good than it would be on a character with less options?

 

[Kofu]

I actually agree, @ Luco , I mentioned that as long as he has his double jump he'll probably return. Not to mention the fact that trying to cement a kill by edgeguarding can give him a chance to grab you with it and further his recovery. On that note, Mario's recovery is often a lot better than I expect it to be. They're both unable to really mix up their angle of return, however.

On the topic of projectiles, I feel that any projectile that gives you a degree of control beyond simple charging (Samus's Charge Beam) or jumping before you use it has considerable merit. Those would be Yoshi's eggs, the Links' boomerangs, the Pits' arrows, Robin's Thunder, Dedede's Gordos, Duck Hunt's can, Ness's PK Thunder, Wii Fit Trainer's Header, and Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit. Thunder and Bonus Fruit are there because they change properties as they charge. Din's Fire and the clay pigeon, among others, deserve honorable mention because you control when they burst (Din's not as much, but it is controllable). Items that can be picked up and thrown are also wonderful. I really like that projectiles in this game have so many different properties and can be used in so many different ways; it's really hard to compare one with another because of it.

 

[IsmaR]

One of the best part of having said projectiles (chargeable ones especially) is the mere option/"threat" they pose. Works wonders for mindgames, making your opponent have to keep wary lest they eat 15-20+%. Meanwhile intentionally stopping the charge from being "full" (in other words, stopping before the visual indicator on the character/their icon appears) is just lovely against anyone that's forgetful.

I've actually used this to both break habits and "scare" people into more favorable positions on my end (to the point of SDing, even).

Another variation of this is PKT2/Duck Hunt's cans. Lulling the opponent to expect a set pattern results in things like them spot/airdodging early, or attempt to hit/reflect them back.

Coincidentally, I absolutely LOVE when people counterpick reflectors for this reason. "They'll never be able to spam projectiles now- Wait why are they not shooting anything. I guess I should approach no-" boom.~

 

[Thinkaman]

I have restored respect for Bowser Jr. His disjoint power is real, and default Koopa Kart is like a more limited but spammable Super Speed. Default up-b is just incredible.

 

[Metal B]

Can someone explain me, why Mario's Standard Fireballs are seen as less useful then his costume Fast Fireballs? In my opinion it's the most downplayed particle in the game, since it is an great multi-use-tool. The most import factor is it stopping power and the angle. Since it drops down, you can use it against juggling, to recover from above, edge guarding and as an approach tool. If opponent waiting for you or try to chaise you from below, a good placed Fireball can disorient or discourage them. If you play Mario for a while, you learn to snipe with it and hit opponents from almost everywhere (Cape also helps you to aim your shot) . Yes, it isn't the best spam-weapon, but it is always better then nothing in this regard.

Fireballs are great in my opinion, as long as you only use it in the air. I really hope, they buff Mario in the future similar to Falco, so that his grounded Fireballs give him less endlag. Right now It is kind of pointless, using them on the ground.

 

[Luco]

I have restored respect for Bowser Jr. His disjoint power is real, and default Koopa Kart is like a more limited but spammable Super Speed. Default up-b is just incredible.

THANKYOU! <3333

I'm really glad people are realising this, Jr's ability to space with disjointed aerials is actually amazing. His whole Fair is literally awesomeness, it's a massively disjointed, lingering hitbox that has multiple purposes - it can be used to string in to itself at lower percents (SH + Fair --> landing ---> SH + Fair is so awesome when you pull it off), and it's a fantastic killer in edge-guarding situations with surprisingly high knockback even when stale.

And I was gonna bring up eventually how similar koopa kart and spin dash are. :3

I actually love this koopa, it takes a lot of effort for someone to make it on to my 'I use this character' signature but he's there so <3

Haha, but for realsies, I think the biggest things bringing him down are his neutral-B and sub-par grab game, at least without customs. Even his down-B has some cool uses. His aerials are really good imo, he just has issues approaching against a certain set of the cast who excel at mid-range zoning, like Robin... oh man I hate versing Robin as Jr hahaha. Robin shuts down kart with arcfire in a blink and Arc-thunder too, and this also makes normal approaches hard for Jr who, although having fantastic aerials would actually rather the opponent was in the air too, usually, especially if they have those mid-range zoning tools that shut down kart.

 

[Dre89]

THANKYOU! <3333

I'm really glad people are realising this, Jr's ability to space with disjointed aerials is actually amazing. His whole Fair is literally awesomeness, it's a massively disjointed, lingering hitbox that has multiple purposes - it can be used to string in to itself at lower percents (SH + Fair --> landing ---> SH + Fair is so awesome when you pull it off), and it's a fantastic killer in edge-guarding situations with surprisingly high knockback even when stale.

And I was gonna bring up eventually how similar koopa kart and spin dash are. :3

I actually love this koopa, it takes a lot of effort for someone to make it on to my 'I use this character' signature but he's there so <3

Haha, but for realsies, I think the biggest things bringing him down are his neutral-B and sub-par grab game, at least without customs. Even his down-B has some cool uses. His aerials are really good imo, he just has issues approaching against a certain set of the cast who excel at mid-range zoning, like Robin... oh man I hate versing Robin as Jr hahaha. Robin shuts down kart with arcfire in a blink and Arc-thunder too, and this also makes normal approaches hard for Jr who, although having fantastic aerials would actually rather the opponent was in the air too, usually, especially if they have those mid-range zoning tools that shut down kart.

He can't approach, that's the problem. His whole kit loses to shield because he can't land grabs easily when apporaching.

 

[Kofu]

Junior's grab isn't terrible; it might come out a bit slower than normal but the cool down is actually not bad at all. Plus he generally gets good reward from his throws.

Clown Cart Dash is functionally like Spin Dash/Super Speed, but it's noticeably worse because of its startup. Sonic and Palutena start moving almost immediately with their respective moves (IIRC with Palutena, I don't remember what Super Speed's startup animation is exactly) whereas Junior actually moves back before moving forward. That could be useful as a counterattack but it makes rushing the target down from a distance much harder. He's also unable to cancel it with shield, unlike Sonic (and possibly Palutena; see previous parenthesis) so it he wants to stop rushing without commitment he has to jump. Probably the best parts about it are the super armor on his car while dashing and the fact that he can cancel the attack into a spin-out, which can actually be used to kill if done properly. Kind of nice to have that as an option.

In general he's also held back by his mobility, at least on the ground. Sonic is, well, fast, and Palutena's a lot quicker than I would have guessed her to be. Junior, on the other hand, is bottom 10 in run speed, so if he wants to cover good distance in any reasonable time he has to use Clown Cart Dash. Dre. is right, he really struggles to approach because of his aforementioned mobility problems which leads to matchups against projectile-heavy characters being a huge pain.

But I still love him.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have restored respect for Bowser Jr. His disjoint power is real, and default Koopa Kart is like a more limited but spammable Super Speed. Default up-b is just incredible.

What do you think of his second up B, Meteor Ejection?
Is the explosion weaker than default? And is the lowered
jump height crippling? Because it otherwise seems like a great
tool for gimping inflexible recoveries.

Other noteworthy customs he has are Koopa Drift,
which makes recovery almost a non-issue
as he practically flies by spinning (unless they changed
it post 1.0.3) and Piercing Cannonball helps him deal
with projectiles.

 

[HeroMystic]

Can someone explain me, why Mario's Standard Fireballs are seen as less useful then his costume Fast Fireballs? In my opinion it's the most downplayed particle in the game, since it is an great multi-use-tool. The most import factor is it stopping power and the angle. Since it drops down, you can use it against juggling, to recover from above, edge guarding and as an approach tool. If opponent waiting for you or try to chaise you from below, a good placed Fireball can disorient or discourage them. If you play Mario for a while, you learn to snipe with it and hit opponents from almost everywhere (Cape also helps you to aim your shot) . Yes, it isn't the best spam-weapon, but it is always better then nothing in this regard.

Fast Fireballs can be compared to Falco's blaster. It's a better tool to use to force your opponent to approach. It has less lag than standard Fireball and if combined with Gust Cape it makes Mario have a respectable defensive build.

I do agree that Fireballs are still a strong option, and probably Mario's best Neutral B option overall for the reasons you stated. However Fireballs' major problem (which has always been a problem ever since Melee) is the lack of "spam" you get from them. Your opponent doesn't have to respect it since Mario's recovery is so bad from it, and they're easy to shield. Fast Fireballs gets rid of that problem at the cost of versatility.

 

[HeavyLobster]

if yomi is your thing then ganon is your man

Ganon is also your man if you just like hitting things really hard and laughing evilly as you watch them die.

 

[JWrecks]

What's your playstyle? Bowser is probably the most offensive of the bunch while Charizard is the most defensive. DK is somewhere in the middle while Dedede can do both. In my opinions of course.

I don't want to get too off topic for this thread but I'd consider myself a calculated risk taker, but I take a lot of risks, I love making big reads which is why I enjoy smash so much.

I'm gonna be labbing bowser today, thanks for the breakdown sir.

 

[Hungry Wolf]

Just give Ganon the ability to throw giant balls of energy like in OoT.

And a float. float's are nice. Like in PM and OoT (holy crap im just now realizing Ganon can float in his games)

Who needs Warlock Punch anyways?

Sakurai get on dat **** pls. :]


Welcome to Smashboards!

Next time don't just drop a tier list without explanation as people might hound you for answers as to why some things are like they are.

That said, despite some thing like Ike, Puff, Peach, Shulk, Doc, and Junior's placements, this might actually be one of the ones I agree with more.

Ike and Peach are hella good, but unexplored. Puff as well. Shulk is starting to see some use and results, and he def has a lot of potential.

The gap between Doc and Mario is actually a lot more than I initially thought. I just can't imagine Doc getting actual results, while Mario already has some. Also, Junior is largely unexplored, but I remain skeptical on him.

Also you forgot some characters like Pikachu.

EDIT: Also super skeptical about ROB, DHD, Mac, and I think Olimar is a lot worse than indicated here. So actually not that close of a list to mine lol

Thanks for the feedback, I agree that Olimar is worse and dhd should be moved down, but rob is actually pretty good in this game when used right. Also, as a dr.mario main I believe that mario is better than mario because of his nair, up b(for damage), down b, fair(although it doesn't spike it does do a lot of damage) . Thanks

 

[TTTTTsd]

As a Dr. Mario main, Mario only outclasses us in two REALLY MASSIVE areas that unfortunately make him much better in the current meta.

- Mobility and ease of movement
- Recovery

I do think if Doc had more damage on his crucial combo tools (Utilt, Uair ESPECIALLY Uair) he'd be a lot closer to Mario, but as of right now it's not looking good. Seriously why does his Uair do 7% if it can't even string into itself smoothly, just notch it to 10% along with Utilt, if you're gonna make slow strong Mario, fit the entire bill!

I can easily imagine Doc getting results, just not amazing results. I could see him placing in regionals (in fact @ M@v won some with Doc and a secondary), nationals? Probably top 50 (assuming a strong player and/or meta development), or fringe lower, even higher if he works hard and has secondaries if need be. I don't see him as entirely unviable (nobody in the cast stands out to me as this besides poor Mii Swordsman) but his results compared to Mario are going to be pretty bad, it doesn't help that a lot of the better and stronger players are also behind Mario.

Won't really stop me from using him, he's tons of fun and I think that he definitely has potential. But he's suffering from being a clone who is considered inferior (although he's more of a semi-clone if I had to be real) and thus he's going to suffer from an underdeveloped meta for a while as a result. It's inevitable, but all I can do is hope that it fixes itself down the line.

What a dire competitive impression I have just given.

 

[Tainic]

Have played a lot of doc in ssb4 and I can confirm that while Doc definitely has some perks, he just has a really hard time approaching due to his, let's be honest, bad movement (He can't even tornado in like Luigi can because he is so slow.), forcing him to play really defensively, the problem is that he doesn't have that many tools defensively speaking : He doesn't have that many grab options, limiting his punishes, his projectile is ok but nothing to write home about, and once he's offstage he's in a very, very bad spot courtesy of his bad recovery.

What doc really needs imo is an at least decent recovery (not asking about a Yoshi tier recovery, but something like a Falcon like one would be cool.) and reliables combo starters : Even "low" characters such as samus have a down-throw that can combo (Besides she has good camping tools.) while doc pretty much has only his dash attack as a reliable combo starter, down/uptilt are good too but they are very situationnal, (You have to be very close to your opponent to do uptilt strings into upairs, you have to be at the right distance to combo off downtilt.) problems that Mario doesn't have.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's D-Throw is actually incredibly reliable as a combo starter as far as throws go. There's a giant post on it in the Doc boards if you wanna see it, with percentage listings and everything.

Doc's combo game is far from his big issue, it's mobility and recovery with damage values that sort of but not really offset them.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

do think if Doc had more damage on his crucial combo tools (Utilt, Uair ESPECIALLY Uair) he'd be a lot closer to Mario, but as of right now it's not looking good. Seriously why does his Uair do 7% if it can't even string into itself smoothly, just notch it to 10% along with Utilt, if you're gonna make slow strong Mario, fit the entire bill!.

I was watching M2K/Zero's stream the other day.

M2K had been playing a lot of Mario, then he tried Doc. He Up Aired once, saw the angle Up Air went at, and immediately closed out of the match.

If it was really strong, then it'd be fine, or if it combo'd into itself. But so far neither seem to be the case.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's nice to know about what M2K thinks after trying to play Dr. Mario like Mario which is an experiment in futility and also a really bad idea. Not to discredit him but if he closed out that fast then he probably barely explored the potential of the character.

It's not even that Uair is bad, it's not, it could just use a little more juice. Again all I can recommend is checking the huge combo collection thing in the Doc boards that covers percentages and ranges for strings and combos. He has plenty of those, it's just he could use more reliable damage output on stuff like Uair to make them actually kick! (Oh and UTilt too, cause why not)

For the record that Uair angle is the same angle it was in Melee, or close to it anyways IIRC

 

[Lavani]

It's also similar in angle to Luigi's uair, except Luigi's does 11%.

Isn't it sad, Doc?

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's also similar in angle to Luigi's uair, except Luigi's does 11%.

Isn't it sad, Doc?

I guess the offset is that Luigi doesn't have a really good fastfall like Doc does on his Uair, and I believe Luigi's air speed is worse than Doc's (by a small amount, noticable enough), but yeah, I doubt it would kill them to juice it up to 10% cause Dr. M's strings are good but obviously shorter than Mario's.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

It's nice to know about what M2K thinks after trying to play Dr. Mario like Mario which is an experiment in futility and also a really bad idea. Not to discredit him but if he closed out that fast then he probably barely explored the potential of the character.

It's not even that Uair is bad, it's not, it could just use a little more juice. Again all I can recommend is checking the huge combo collection thing in the Doc boards that covers percentages and ranges for strings and combos. He has plenty of those, it's just he could use more reliable damage output on stuff like Uair to make them actually kick! (Oh and UTilt too, cause why not)

For the record that Uair angle is the same angle it was in Melee, or close to it anyways IIRC

Yeah I agree. I wasn't bringing that up to say that Doc is bad, but to sort of highlight how Up Air is sort of lacking, or at least in combo potential. I think its a good move and all, just the reward might not be quite there.

His Up Air's angle being near Melee's doesn't mean much before we consider Doc's aerial mobility comparatively, something that I don't quite know enough about. Doc has to be there for the hit to connect so... yeah.

How is his air speed vs. Melee?

 

[M@v]

I still think docs combos are fine. His upair's fine too. His problem is the mobility. Its soooooooo bad compared to mario and luigi. It is also too easy to rely on tornado too much as it has such massive priority. A lot of times a matchup becomes way harder if they can deal with tornado easily. I've been messing around with luigi more recently, and he almost feels like a more mobile doc that -slightly- sacrifices combo ability.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think the issue is that mobility is all that is holding him back from being borderline a better Mario and changing that would skew it, the more I think of it. If they just make his damage sillier it'd at least be worth the payoff but, eh. I guess it wouldn't hurt if they upped it a little bit. I'm gonna keep investing time into him, I feel like I can go somewhere with him. Hopefully. I think he's very much a character that can succeed but I imagine it'll take a lot of work.

Although I guess that statement on Luigi is exactly why I feel at home when I use him....

Also I need to use Tornado a little bit more given its insane priority. It looks like it beats virtually anything lol

 

[warionumbah2]

Luigi = Doc Mario and Mario without Cape.

 

[Gunla]

The whole "Tornado has end lag" is what keeps me from using it so much, personally.

Regardless of the other plumber's developments, I'm going to be heavily loyal to Doc.

 

[Bedoop]

...I feel we should talk about Mr. Game & Watch.
It seems like he's been overshadowed by everyone else and hasn't been very talked about all that much.
How's everyone's impression of GnW?
I honestly think he's very able to keep up with the game (he seems to be faster, his FAir is easier to use IMO and he's quite a balanced fighter) but I miss the Bucket Braking.
CURSE YOU, PLUMBER MARIO.
REPLACED MY BUCKET WITH YOUR DARN CAPE. :U

 

[M@v]

Tornado Beats so many things. A ton of people still release their shield too early to try and punish it, so abuse that while it lasts.
As an example of how important tornado is, imo, is if I were to make a flow chart for doc in some matchups, I would have tornado listed as the best option in almost any situation. Tornado can almost single handidly beat Olimar's entire moveset, just ask Dabuz. It also beats like everything sonic has. The problem is, as soon those characters figure out how to either beat tornado (some just can't) or figure out the best ways to bait it out early and avoid it, you are basically screwed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Tornado Beats so many things. A ton of people still release their shield too early to try and punish it, so abuse that while it lasts.
As an example of how important tornado is, imo, is if I were to make a flow chart for doc in some matchups, I would have tornado listed as the best option in almost any situation. Tornado can almost single handidly beat Olimar's entire moveset, just ask Dabuz. It also beats like everything sonic has. The problem is, as soon those characters figure out how to either beat tornado (some just can't) or figure out the best ways to bait it out early and avoid it, you are basically screwed.

So the basic idea is to be careful and mix up Tornado usage? I'll keep that in mind and try and implement that, I suppose. I plan on playing this character for this game's lifespan so I'll have to make note. I guess the best I can take from it is use it wisely. I guess it's just a matter of not falling into patterns and he'll do fine in high level.

Still, I didn't think Tornado was THAT good, this seems pretty important. I guess as a character, Doc is fine, it's just gonna be difficult. I'm up for it.

 

[Asdioh]

It's basically the same as Luigi then? If you try to attack haphazardly, or beat tornado with an attack, you'll lose. If you sit in shield (bo-ring) you'll beat it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's basically the same as Luigi then? If you try to attack haphazardly, or beat tornado with an attack, you'll lose. If you sit in shield (bo-ring) you'll beat it.

Sounds about right. I guess playing Dr. Mario is a lot about being reactive and crushing patterns, which I guess Tornado does pretty well.

Seems alright, I guess. I can at least take something pretty big from this, should help me step up my game.

 

[M@v]

You can't use it over and over. But if you want to think of a comparison, think of it like Brawl GW or D3's Bair. Its a move you want to use quite often but not solely.

It's basically the same as Luigi then? If you try to attack haphazardly, or beat tornado with an attack, you'll lose. If you sit in shield (bo-ring) you'll beat it.

Luigi can safely move away with his Tornado in many situations....unlike Doc who's basically committed. Tornado requires commitment. Its not often you can get away unpunished if you fail to hit them vs someone who knows how to deal with it.

 

[Jaxas]

So I've heard a lot of talk about Shulk and Ike both being very good, especially post-patch. They're both of the same archetype (slow, long-range sword users), but is there a consensus as to which is better?

From what I've seen it looks like Shulk has the advantage because of the adaptability of his Monado Arts and the edge in range, but on the other hand from what I've played even with that extra range he's not safe on shield (excluding Buster mode, because then almost everything is safe it feels like) whereas Ike has a number of things that are safe on shield (that amazing Bair for example).

I've been playing Shulk quite a bit lately, because he covers a few matchups I'm having trouble with as ZSS (not sure if that's just due to the opposing players being unfamiliar with him or actually their characters), but I'm really struggling to decide whether to go with Shulk or Ike as a secondary.

There's also the much greater differences between them when Custom Moves become legal again (hopefully; it's not guaranteed but I'd hate to see them not used). Tempest + Close Combat are great for Ike, but Power Vision is utterly absurd and refreshes between stocks, to boot.