Character Competitive Impressions

[The Real Gamer]

She'd easily be bottom 5 IMO. Without Luma her KO potential and defensive options (oh wow I can ACTUALLY GRAB THIS CARACTER NOW) plummet.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Eh, the thing is they designed Rosalina to work with Luma so they moved some of her damage and KO power to Luma. So right now Rosalina does really low damage when solo, but if they made Rosalina without Luma in the first place then they would likely move some of that damage and KO power back to Rosalina. The weight choice might have been made for the same reason, because Rosalina is heavy in the Mario Kart games.

But yeah current Rosa with no Luma is pretty weak because her stats are just awful and she loses out on some attacks. She still has disjointed hitboxes on almost all of her normals though.

Also she's still better than Sopo lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

How good of a character do you guys think Rosalina is without Luma, full-stop?

I don't think she's awful, but her limited good moves + lack of a projectile or reflector + low weight + floatiness + huge size doom her to bottom 5 imo. She seems on par with Olimar.

(Note that Rosalina-with-no-Luma is not the same as Rosalina-with-Luma-dead-and-respawning, the latter of which always forces the opponent to approach her, dramatically changing the calculus.)

F**k this again, I hate puppeteers and how they can't be balanced. /overdramatizing

Yeah I agree Rosalina without Luma is pretty bad for the reasons you mentioned. She's actually pretty glaringly vulnerable to juggles and edgeguards compared to some other strong characters.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon? Loses to Sheik at hard counter levels for the third game in a row. "Wouldn't mind a more pronounced beard on his model".

Sheik. Foiling Ganon's evil plans since 1998.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How good of a character do you guys think Rosalina is without Luma, full-stop?

I don't think she's awful, but her limited good moves + lack of a projectile or reflector + low weight + floatiness + huge size doom her to bottom 5 imo. She seems on par with Olimar.

(Note that Rosalina-with-no-Luma is not the same as Rosalina-with-Luma-dead-and-respawning, the latter of which always forces the opponent to approach her, dramatically changing the calculus.)

Well for starters a Rosalina with no Luma ever is down two special moves. (Neutral and side, specifically.)

Without Luma her main saving grace is that she still can't be projectile camped by anyone because Gravitational Pull. Between that and her tilts/disjoints, she'd almost certainly be stuck trying to play a defensive game and have to poke people away from shield. No Luma means no stage control, no damage sponge, no grab escapes, generally reduced range, and only one kill move worth mentioning. She also has a blind spot diagonally above her without Luma to cover it; fair can hit there but I'm not sure that's entirely safe.

What she can do without Luma is uair juggles, small throw to aerial combos, offstage gimps, and dsmash to punish rolls. Except Luma still empowers all of that just by existing so yeah.

 

[Thinkaman]

Honestly I still think she's much better than Olimar and some of the other bad characters, who just have a terrible neutral game regardless of where they are relative to the opponent.

Random aside: I think Olimar is the worst character in the game, but I don't actually think he has a bad neutral.

He mostly suffers from dismal reward, dismal kill power, reflectable smashes, and poor Pikmin AI.

Alternatively, if we assume she can still do Luma Shot and Star Bits, but Luma simply disappears after use, then upper mid. This removes most of her approaching problems and allows her solid fundamentals to shine through. She wouldn't be quite as good as some of the characters in high, but she still has an edge on much of the cast.

All versions of Star Bit would become waaay better if it was attached to Rosalina's body and not tied to Luma. (And didn't freeze her in mid-air of course)

 

[DanGR]

I understand opinions change over time yada yada, but I'll leave a relevant summary here of soloRosa that I wrote a while back.

Interesting side note: I think I underrated back then how amazing n-air is on shield block against characters with slow pummels/pummels that don't hit Luma, or throws without hitboxes that knock Luma away. (Poor villager ) Given these conditions, you can simply land on their shield and press A to hit them out of a grab with Luma, and potentially rapid-jab -> combo into a Rosalina upsmash. Needs more exploring. Obviously, this doesn't apply to soloRosa.

That's a huge exaggeration. I don't know where a lot of the community gets this idea from, but Rosalina has very definite weaknesses without Luma, and most definitely wouldn't be a top or high tier character without Luma. Probably not mid-tier either. And I wouldn't exactly call a mid-tier character "good" if that's what you were referring to instead.

Yes all of her moves when Luma is gone "have a use." 99% of moves in this game have a use. However, no that does not necessarily make them good moves.

The hitbox on her uptilt is only present on the ring. This makes it incredibly weak both as an anti-air move and against grounded opponents because she can't cover just about anything diagonally. Anyone who gets hit by her uptilt would be hit by just about any other move anyways, so there's really not much reason to use it when Luma isn't there.

The hitbox on her nair is only on the feet. While it has low cooldown at the end, it takes a while for Rosalina to swing her feet around her body in order to get it into that position. So you can smack her when she makes the initial swing-around movement, before the hitbox reaches her front side, or even afterwards with a jump-canceled move out of shield. The way I see most people try to punish Rosalina's n-air is the same way people tried to punish ZSS' down smash upon Brawl's release, except Rosalina's n-air has way more start-up, no frame advantage, and overall far less use cases. Rosalina's n-air without Luma is somewhat strictly a zoning tool.

F-air takes too long to be very usable in a neutral position. Yes, this is a minor point in a vacuum. However, I bring this up for 2 reasons. Firstly, her air game from the front without Luma is incredibly risky to use when you're trying to make it back to a neutral position from high up. N-air takes a while for the hitbox to reach anywhere in front or below her. You may as well time a b-air if you're going to try to use n-air while being juggled. F-air has considerable after-lag if you don't land with it. And d-air only covers directly under her. Consider all of that along with her floatyness and you can reasonably understand she becomes much more easily juggled without Luma's hitboxes there. Secondly, If you consider her poor front-ward air game, and the small hitbox on her uptilt, she has a pretty blatant weakness against aerials and any characters that use them often.

Next I'm going to list some aspects of Rosalina's gameplay that are removed when Luma reaches 52 total dmg, is knocked away from her, or is knocked offstage. Keep in mind some of these weaknesses are realistically dwarfed when you consider she's got a projectile absorption move with Luma coming back on a timer. But we're theorizing Rosalina without Luma permanently, here.

• Much, much fewer of her moves combo into each other when Luma is dead.
• She loses her projectile.
• She loses literally half her range.
• She loses hitboxes in areas that normally cover the angles and timings Rosalina by herself is particularly weak against.
• She loses her zoning game.
• She loses any kind of decent offensive pressure.
• She loses combos from a grab.
• She loses a little bit of kill power on her smashes.
• She loses combined damage from moves that would normally hit with both Rosalina and Luma's hitboxes.
• She loses additional safety on block on every move that had it.

Edit: Her basic kit reminds me of Brawl's Zelda, kinda

 

[SonicZeroX]

I think the Pikmin AI might be better in the Wii U version because I know the Pikmin can bring you items but I don't remember that ever happening in the 3DS version

 

[Terotrous]

Random aside: I think Olimar is the worst character in the game, but I don't actually think he has a bad neutral.

He mostly suffers from dismal reward, dismal kill power, reflectable smashes, and poor Pikmin AI.

IMO the poor pikmin AI gives him bad neutral. There's all kinds of times when I'll attempt an UpSmash or something and it just won't come out because the stupid pikmin got lost, forcing me to try to whistle them back or whatever while I'm getting smacked in the face on what should have been a legitimate punish.

Aerials also seemingly got way worse since Brawl. Tilts are decent, but that's about it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Aerials also seemingly got way worse since Brawl. Tilts are decent, but that's about it.

I actually don't find the aerials much worst, but I'm no Olimar main.

 

[BSP]

Like I said, all Doc needs is better run speed and he becomes scary.

In other words, if you don't split mario's strengths, he becomes great >_>

I wish they would've taken the PM approach instead splitting Mario up essentially.

 

[Terotrous]

I actually don't find the aerials much worst, but I'm no Olimar main.

Uair is clearly much worse. Dair and Nair are about the same. Fair and Bair seem less safe.

He also seems to have some ridiculous freeze frames now every time the Pikmin hit something, which makes him super punishable on shield. Seriously, try out the credits minigame with him and do Fair. You're stuck in the air for like 5 seconds.

 

[A2ZOMG]

In other words, if you don't split mario's strengths, he becomes great >_>

I wish they would've taken the PM approach instead splitting Mario up essentially.

Yeah like, this alone makes me mad because it just makes it harder to make either one of them good while keeping them unique in some way.

Personally, I don't think Doc is really balanceable. Doc's massive reward makes him really win-more when he's doing well, and giving him things like frame data or mobility buffs then would likely just make him not unique, but generically strong. Mario in contrast at the very least should get frame data buffs so that his gameplan actually works and separates him from other characters.

The best solution I could think of for Doc is hyperpolarizing his game to revolve around pill combos. Which could make him viable and unique, but also likely make him very dominant in specific matchups.

 

[TTTTTsd]

In other words, if you don't split mario's strengths, he becomes great >_>

I wish they would've taken the PM approach instead splitting Mario up essentially.

Well no because his run speed wouldn't fix everything. I also should specify he should NOT run slower than King Dedede, he doesn't have to be fast but it's not a science that a run speed that low is severe. He'd still have fundamental issues compared to Mario.
- Lack of solid air speed and gimping
- Longer endlag on all aerials (landing lag is worse with Doc)
- Worse combos and chasing potential due to lower air speed
- Did I mention his recovery?

I wouldn't mind pill combos making a return from Melee. I just think he should run a LITTLE faster, let's say, maybe equal to 41st worst running speed instead of 46-47. Just a small difference that would make him marginally better. Or instead of buffing run speed they could let him SH Lagless Megavitamin which would give him a super dynamic pill game much like the source =3

Overall I'm very happy with Doc atm but I can't help but feel like his run speed is just a smidge too low, or his combo game/dynamics are too lacking. But at least when he hits he doesn't have to care because nobody wants to trade with that Bair.

If you also want an idea about Mario/Doc differences why not make Mario's UTilt faster and leave Doc's the same? Boom, fairly big difference out the gate.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I should note, they can cut the landing lag on both Mario and Doc's F-airs, and I'd say it would be a healthy change for both characters for different reasons given how the moves serve different purposes.

But yeah their F-airs are laggier than Ganondorf's for some reason. YEAH. LOGIC.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I also really want them to consider giving Flame Choke's grab priority cause it can trade with moves and that's just silly. I know that's how throws work in general here but that's...ouch.

 

[Conda]

I also feel Falco's runspeed is an issue for a character with such low aerial mobility and a close range moveset like his. But that may just be my own personal wish for Falco, I'd be much more comfy with him. As it is, I don't feel I can chase to follow up, but that's likely a limitation you're supposed to live with.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I also feel Falco's runspeed is an issue for a character with such low aerial mobility and a close range moveset like his. But that may just be my own personal wish for Falco, I'd be much more comfy with him. As it is, I don't feel I can chase to follow up, but that's likely a limitation you're supposed to live with.

I'd rather they buff default lasers slightly (nothing crazy like SH autocancel lasers, just either a slight hitstun or startup buff). That would sorta address the issue you're talking about.

 

[sunset_raven]

Btw, one thing that really annoys me about Rosa is how easy it is to pick up. She's got very strong and simple defensive options (seriously, just standing still is strong with her).

Anyway... Fox and Falco. Am I wrong in seeing them as Ken / Ryu respectively? In design terms, I mean. Falco seems a more solid character all around, while Fox can pressure and approach better.

 

[Terotrous]

I also really want them to consider giving Flame Choke's grab priority cause it can trade with moves and that's just silly. I know that's how throws work in general here but that's...ouch.

I'd rather just have it not be techable.

 

[TTTTTsd]

You know there's always that too.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Would now be a good time to pull out the "Why not both?"?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's massive reward makes him really win-more when he's doing well

So what you're saying is, even in his less than stellar matchups, if he gets in he's well off in comparison? Just wanna clarify about this statement, cause, you know, stuff....(he's my main ;_; )

 

[Thinkaman]

So what you're saying is, even in his less than stellar matchups, if he gets in he's well off in comparison? Just wanna clarify about this statement, cause, you know, stuff....(he's my main ;_; )

This is my experience with doc.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So basically the real challenge is setting up and performing optimally, but when Doc's in, that's the ticket. I guess I can be satisfied with that, I play Ganondorf I really shouldn't be surprised, kind of the same deal with both of em.

 

[Judo777]

This just wasn't true in any of my experience.

Last tourney I was at with Jekyll, he tore through the entire bracket. Zoze only beat him in GF after Jekyll SD'd game one, and CPing Luigi's Mansion (which was legal for some reason) game 3. Zoze isn't the world's best MK, but a player of his performance would have slept-walked through the matchup to hear you tell it. If Jekyll's moves did double damage, he'd have been 2-stocked repeatedly.

In STL, people wouldn't go MK against TP's Ganon; they'd go ICs, Falco, DDD, Olimar, or Sheik--all of whom are vastly more abusive.

BBrawl Ganon was nowhere near as buffed as 2.0x damage and got zero speed or range upgrades, and he proved to handle MK fine. (Olimar was still a small problem, in comparison.)

Jigglypuff also did way better against MK, better than any other top tier except ICs. Falcon also preferred MK to Olimar and ICs.

But anyway, back to Smash 4. The confirmation of Luma respawn nerf is really interesting!

Just because a Ganon player read the opponents 8 seconds in advance doesn't mean the MU wasn't horrendous for him. I have never heard of the people you are mentioning but I would be willing to bet a decent amount of money that that MK player has never sat down for even 15 minutes to think about his potential options against Ganondorf. Like really sit down and study Ganondorf as a character. Because I guarantee you that Ganon player had done the same for MK. All high level brawl players were surgeon level experts at the MK MU, Will would utilt MK's out of tornado with like 95% consistency. Until that player comes back and is like "ok I have been working pretty extensively on the Ganondorf MU" and then still gets bodied then I may be a little more swayed.

The problem in every Ganondorf MU is NOT damage dealt. Ganon only needs a few solid hits and read or 2 to end a stock. The problem is....... he can't get ANY solid hits. Ganon lives off of dash attacks and dtilts which don't get him anywhere (but thats all he can land). All of Mk's moves are safe on powershield, MK gimps Ganondorf practically for free, and in a juggle situation (or on the ground for that matter) Ganon doesn't have a single move that beats tornado., nor can he punish it on shield. Giving Ganon double the damage in no way fixes his problems at all, it just makes him not have to fight the uphill battle for as long. Ganon would now need to hit is opponent 4 times a stock, instead of 8.

In super turbo if we gave Zangief the ability to kill someone off of a single SPD he would STILL not be beat Akuma because thats not the problem. He gets completely shutdown by airfireballs and has freaking no way of getting in. I actually feel like this is a pretty similar analogy (overly extreme in one case because Zangief literally can't get past the fireballs, but extreme in the other instance that Ganon won't be killing anyone in 1 hit).

My argument is also that most players aren't really sure if MK is not as bad as some of the other high tiers, because MK players never bothered to learn MU's below B tier, they managed to get by easily enough with tornado and a few other moves that completely shutdown characters. I am not however saying that MK was every characters worst MU (although it wouldn't surprise me at all).

 

[A2ZOMG]

So basically the real challenge is setting up and performing optimally, but when Doc's in, that's the ticket. I guess I can be satisfied with that, I play Ganondorf I really shouldn't be surprised, kind of the same deal with both of em.

I don't mind that kind of playstyle on Ganondorf where the majority of his moves aren't very safe and when he can't really force people to approach him. It's the basis of being a grappler. Neutral by design is supposed to be difficult, but the positive state is overwhelmingly favorable. I appreciate Ganondorf in this game for embodying a high impact on few hits playstyle, which actually seems to be well emphasized in a game where the majority of character damage per hit is extremely low.

I just feel like the fact Doc has a projectile though makes him harder to balance. It's an extra lever in neutral that means anybody that happens to have trouble shutting him out then has to deal with approaching on his terms. The only two real solutions I really see to make Doc more viable are:

1. make him better at approaching. This solution homogenizes him and makes him less strategically appealing.
2. make his projectiles better and more defining (in terms of reward and setup potential). This solution polarizes him and makes him likely a headache for specific matchups.

You can't take away Doc's reward for the most part, otherwise that also homogenizes him in a way nobody would agree with due to his parallels with Mario.

The one thing both Mario and Doc however should get is reduced landing lag on F-air, which I won't complain about because their F-airs are very clearly different moves with different purposes hindered by ending lag.

 

[Conda]

Just because a Ganon player read the opponents 8 seconds in advance doesn't mean the MU wasn't horrendous for him. I have never heard of the people you are mentioning but I would be willing to bet a decent amount of money that that MK player has never sat down for even 15 minutes to think about his potential options against Ganondorf. Like really sit down and study Ganondorf as a character. Because I guarantee you that Ganon player had done the same for MK. All high level brawl players were surgeon level experts at the MK MU, Will would utilt MK's out of tornado with like 95% consistency. Until that player comes back and is like "ok I have been working pretty extensively on the Ganondorf MU" and then still gets bodied then I may be a little more swayed.

The problem in every Ganondorf MU is NOT damage dealt. Ganon only needs a few solid hits and read or 2 to end a stock. The problem is....... he can't get ANY solid hits. Ganon lives off of dash attacks and dtilts which don't get him anywhere (but thats all he can land). All of Mk's moves are safe on powershield, MK gimps Ganondorf practically for free, and in a juggle situation (or on the ground for that matter) Ganon doesn't have a single move that beats tornado., nor can he punish it on shield.

My argument is also that most players aren't really sure if MK is not as bad as some of the other high tiers, because MK players never bothered to learn MU's below B tier, they managed to get by easily enough with tornado and a few other moves that completely shutdown characters. I am not however saying that MK was every characters worst MU (although it wouldn't surprise me at all).

Exactly. The problem so early into the meta is that a really good player can pick up a wide variety of characters and do well. But that can cause problems from a data standpoint, if we suck at analysing data (which tends to happen a lot this early on).

As a community hungry for tier information, we look at their tournament results and conclude things that we shouldn't be too quick to conclude. We have to be careful and understand what's actually going on in certain matches and sets, who the players are, how the characters are being played, etc.

For example: You can win a tournament final as Dr Mario vs a Rosa if the Rosa is making some fatal flaws or you are good at making reads etc. HOWEVER - the data of 'Dr Mario having a favourable matchup vs Rosa' cannot be extracted because it's not a METAGAME situation yet, it's just a specific and isolated one. But we tend to make those kinds of conclusions a lot, and that's normal for an early metagame.

Let's be aware of that and discuss potential more than results; for the majority of characters, there simply aren't enough results to draw any metagame conclusions that are worth a darn.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't mind that kind of playstyle on Ganondorf where the majority of his moves aren't very safe and when he can't really force people to approach him. It's the basis of being a grappler. Neutral by design is supposed to be difficult, but the positive state is overwhelmingly favorable.

I just feel like the fact Doc has a projectile though makes him harder to balance. It's an extra lever in neutral that means anybody that happens to have trouble shutting him out then has to deal with approaching on his terms. The only two real solutions I really see to make Doc more viable are:

1. make him better at approaching. This solution homogenizes him.
2. make his projectiles better and more defining (in terms of reward and setup potential). This solution polarizes him.

You can't take away Doc's reward for the most part, otherwise that also homogenizes him in a way nobody would agree with due to his parallels with Mario.

Just take the one good point that he has (pills and f-smash making it hard to approach him), and make it even more extreme. Give doc some sort of timer-based (meaning not spammable) self-healing move for his down-b (can have virus variants that damage opponents instead for customs); fits thematically and capitalizes on his strengths--he's difficult to approach, but you have to approach him or else he'll win by sheer % advantage.

 

[Terotrous]

Just take the one good point that he has (pills and f-smash making it hard to approach him), and make it even more extreme. Give doc some sort of timer-based (meaning not spammable) self-healing move for his down-b (can have virus variants that damage opponents instead for customs); fits thematically and capitalizes on his strengths--he's difficult to approach, but you have to approach him or else he'll win by sheer % advantage.

Clearly his back thumping taunt should heal a few percent. Get on that Smash 4 Plus!

 

[Rockaphin]

I probably have more experience against Villager than any other character thus far... Villager is VERY good and he'll only get better once the Wii U version comes out and players can perform retreating Fair/Bairs easier.

It's understandable to want your main to get buffed but it's important for the developers and us players to put our bias aside and focus on the characters that actually need them. Villager is not one of those characters.

Um... I acknowledge that fact. This comes simply from lack of knowledge of how good Villager is. Which really shows in my previous post that you replied to. Even here it seems many cannot agree where Villager places. I've seen him all over the place.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dr. Mario having a self-healing move would be so stupid that I'd buy it.

Otherwise I guess he's fine as is, I'm just reasonably worried, haha. I'll stick with him always.

 

[Judo777]

Sheik. Foiling Ganon's evil plans since 1998.

Lol I always say this (sorta as a joke) Sheik SHOULD beat Ganon, she avoided him all of Ocarina til she scrubbed out and transformed.

 

[Terotrous]

Link's only real purpose in OOT is as a hand to wield the Master Sword.

 

[Cruncher93]

So...
Which characters are best at edge guarding/gimping? Which characters do you think are best at avoiding being edge guarded?

 

[sunset_raven]

So...
Which characters are best at edge guarding/gimping? Which characters do you think are best at avoiding being edge guarded?

Avoiding edge guard: Zelda, Palutena w/ Warp, Peach, Pikachu, Greninja, Lucario.

It's pretty self explanatory. Either they avoid it altogether (teleport), or they fly so much with their recoveries that, unless they hit the blast zone, they can return.

 

[Terotrous]

So...
Which characters are best at edge guarding/gimping? Which characters do you think are best at avoiding being edge guarded?

Good Edgeguarders:

Mario
Greninja
Sheik
Dedede
ROB
Pac-Man


Hard to Edgeguard:

Sheik
Palutena
Zelda
Pikachu
Lucario
ZSS
Villager


Not exhaustive by any means.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So...
Which characters are best at edge guarding/gimping? Which characters do you think are best at avoiding being edge guarded?

Best recoveries in this game:



These characters almost certainly messed up if they actually got hit offstage.

Best edgeguarding? Most likely

 

[Conda]

Samus's recovery is good but if she's being actively guarded and gets hit, she can't tether recover unless she airdodges or attacks first (to get out of tumble), so she's definitely edgeguardable.

 

[PK Gaming]

Lol I always say this (sorta as a joke) Sheik SHOULD beat Ganon, she avoided him all of Ocarina til she scrubbed out and transformed.

Yeah, having her damselled at the end was a legitimate sour spot for me.