Character Competitive Impressions

[deepseadiva]

Like Ganon, she can capitalize off of mistakes and openings I'm the opponent's game very and dangerously well with damage strings and big (?) hitboxes.

This is really broad and applies to a lot of characters, if not all of them.

 

[mimgrim]

I think the question now is, what archetype are you calling Ganon? As I'm trying to figure out the archetype Palutena might share with Ganon and am drawing a blank.

 

[Cruncher93]

I thought this might be a really perfect place to share this. On /r/smashbros we did an "Upvote/Downvote Tier List" where people could upvote characters they thought were good and downvote those they thought were bad while discussing all of the characters. If that isn't a huge list of impressions on competitive characters I don't know what is!

We plan on doing one of these each month to see how competitive impressions of characters change over time as well, this should be a cool scientific experiment of sorts. Here are our results for this month:

Spoiler

Remember this is obviously not a perfect tier list by any means. This was just a way to rank and discuss the characters in an interesting setting. We're hoping to do this each month and get people's impressions of characters over time. Consider it a cool way to watch our game develop month to month.

If you want to see the thread that inspired this check it out.

Seems mostly fine, but I think the list should work differently. Make A, B, C, D, E tier and put every character into C. Then everyone can vote up/down/stay for each character. After the votes are over, characters are moved up to one tier. Then you repeat this and at some point characters should either stop moving or swing back and forth between specific tiers. Maybe 2 more tiers would be needed for better separation. This method would remove popularity from the equation, it won't matter if 1000 people vote up for R&L and only 1 for Mii Gunner, both will be moved.
Not sure if it's possible to do this, though.

 

[Conda]

Seems mostly fine, but I think the list should work differently. Make A, B, C, D, E tier and put every character into C. Then everyone can vote up/down/stay for each character. After the votes are over, characters are moved up to one tier. Then you repeat this and at some point characters should either stop moving or swing back and forth between specific tiers. Maybe 2 more tiers would be needed for better separation. This method would remove popularity from the equation, it won't matter if 1000 people vote up for R&L and only 1 for Mii Gunner, both will be moved.
Not sure if it's possible to do this, though.

My point is that people for some reason think Falco, Samus, TLink, and more are bad characters based on nothing but lack of discussion and hype over them. We've seen certain characters in the few publicly streamed tournaments, and we're forming everything around those tournaments.

Heck, one of the main reasons people are talking about ROB is because Chibo, the awesome guy who runs Clash Tournaments, plays him at the tournaments he covers. Thus ROB gets coverage.

We talked about Ness for a while, but he hasn't been used as much for a week or two on the streams, so we got bored of him.

We're being very reactionary in our discussion. Let's try to be ahead of the curve and talk about things whether or not they be the current 'hot topics'.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mii Brawler and Lucario have plenty of killing power.

Dont know anything about Miis, and Lucario I was going to put on but I wasnt sure if his kill power was match up dependent or not so yeah lol.

?

Yeah I forgot Shulk

?

And I forgot Ike toooooo~

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Dont know anything about Miis, and Lucario I was going to put on but I wasnt sure if his kill power was match up dependent or not so yeah lol.

Don't mean to sound rude but

Lucario has killing power in EVERY matchup cause once he gets over 100% then **** the world

 

[A2ZOMG]

My point is that people for some reason think Falco, Samus, TLink, and more are bad characters based on nothing but lack of discussion and hype over them. We've seen certain characters in the few publicly streamed tournaments, and we're forming everything around those tournaments.

Heck, one of the main reasons people are talking about ROB is because Chibo, the awesome guy who runs Clash Tournaments, plays him at the tournaments he covers. Thus ROB gets coverage.

We talked about Ness for a while, but he hasn't been used as much for a week or two on the streams, so we got bored of him.

We're being very reactionary in our discussion. Let's try to be ahead of the curve and talk about things whether or not they be the current 'hot topics'.

This a million times.

ROB is waaaay overhyped and just has a few players who mained him a long time even though he was mostly an unremarkable character that used to have a broken F-tilt and glide tossing, which he lost in exchange for some much more situational capitalization buffs in addition to the new physics engine crapping on him largely.

Meanwhile, Falco is underrated when killing his lasers didn't really change that the character already had fundamentally amazing moves. And in a game where everyone else got damage nerfs, Falco's damage output basically wasn't touched, which is kinda insane. In addition to his already good recovery getting better, not to mention DAT SHINE.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Don't mean to sound rude but

Lucario has killing power in EVERY matchup cause once he gets over 100% then **** the world

Im not disagreeing, I just wasnt sure and didnt want to seem biased cuz I play characters who cant kill Lucario lol.

 

[g0rilla]

What do you guys think about in this game?

 

[Nu~]

Well since nobody else will do Pac, I will attempt to. Most of my experience is on For Glory. I have a few friends that main a couple of these characters so I know more about these matchups than others, however, I'm not gonna say these guys are pros by any means and nor am I. I also have practically no experience with customs due to the fact I a) haven't unlocked them all and b) am trying to just get the hang of the base character before I look at the 60 or so different combinations of special moves.

So for the ones I have played outside of FG

>> Wow, this matchup just hurts. I have tried a variety of stages and none of them seem to make it any less painful. I cannot consider any way of possibly overcoming this MU without just purely being a large margin better than the opponent. Eggs neutralise the hydrant and bonus fruit, ground pound is quick and basically punishes you for hitting Yoshi into the air and his attacks are all so quick. Practically unwinnable.
< Neither my friends Diddy, nor any FG Diddy has given me any trouble. Even if its close, I still feel utterly in control with this matchup. Sure Diddy has good range, aerials and decent killing power but he just doesn't strike me as unpredictable and as such, I never feel like I am about to lose. I honestly cannot understand the big deal about him being top tier tbh. Although, I havent really played against him with anyone else so I guess I cant really say.
≥ Fairly even MU I would say, maybe slightly in Ness' favour. Ness can combo really well and punish hard, however, some of Pac's moves can be hard for Ness to deal with. It's hard to really say too much about this matchup without playing actually, it just feels kinda even.
< Falco struggles against Pac simply due to Pac's aerial mobility. Orange also goes straight through the laser which basically means that Falco cannot spam his laser too much. Deflector can be nicely baited and punished with key and I just don't see anywhere that Falco beats Pac. Not that it is unwinnable though, Falco is still able to punish Pac well if he whiffs a laggy move. Plus his smashes are all much faster than Pac's in terms of start up
> Phew this is hard work. I have come close to beating my friends Rosalina and Luma twice, but the matches drag on ridiculously (A 3-stock match lasted over 10 minutes). The key to this MU with Pac is being 110% careful and never over-committing. Camping is basically a necessity and is the only way to come even close to winning. Definitely not unwinnable like Yoshi, but you have to play a near-perfect game to come close to winning.

Basically FG only

≤ I would say this matchup is in Pac's favour simply because of the bonus fruit. Orange is handy in this MU and melon and key have pretty insane priority which can help too. Obviously the only thing holding Pac back in this MU is Bowsers shear power. His punishing ability is amazing so you have to be on your toes, however I think Pac wins it. Just.
< As long as you don't get caught in a bad spot with the hydrant, this MU is pretty good for Pac. Bonus fruit are really good in this MU once again and Power Pellet is great for gimping Mac. Like Bowser, Mac has amazing punishes, however, his gimpability is just so much higher so I feel this is a better for Pac.
≤ Again, have not had as much trouble in this matchup as others seem to. As such, I am a little bit confused as to why people rate her so highly but I just never seem to have too much trouble against Sheik. If I need to charge bonus fruit, I just go outside the range of her needles. Pac's ftilt comes out pretty quickly and his dash is great. Obviously Sheik has combos and is quite fast, but I still have not lost to as many Sheiks as I would have expected given how highly she is rated. Would say slightly in Pac's favour based on my XP.
/? I have played this MU a bit, and on a flat stage it can be painful simply because of Lloid spam. I think I have developed an answer to it, however, I have stayed away from FG lately and don't really know any Villager mains.
< Pac is great at punishing Lucario and the few I have played I have not had too much trouble with. I do realise his aura mechanic is super important this time around, but that doesn't excuse how slow his dash is. Pac is just too quick on the ground and in the air for Lucario to hit him too much. Add in the fact Bonus Fruit can just absorb the aura sphere, I cannot see Lucario having an advantage here.
> ZSS just has too much speed for Pac to deal with. Despite Pac having quick attacks himself, Zamus can just do it so much better. Have not beaten too many Zamuses but I usually come close. Definitely in her favour but not horrible by any stretch.
= Insanely fun matchup that I find to be very even. Sonic is incredibly quick and in your face whereas Pac likes to control the stage and kind of ambles around, for want of a better word. Like a clashing of opposing playstyles really. As such, I would say its fairly even as I have won and lost games against Sonics. He does struggle to kill Pac which is exploitable, however, it can equally be hard to land Pac's killers on Sonic. Landing lag punishing is pretty much the go to. I would say even as Sonic's speed can be very overwhelming and he does have some nice combos.

Have not played enough to know but will give impressions based on playtime with the characters.

> Zoning game will be too strong for Pac to deal with. Zipping in between all the projectiles will be tough. Pac is better in the air though so he has that advantage, but I cannot see this going too well for the yellow guy.
< I haven't played against a Mii Gunner but I have played as one a fair bit and I do not rate it at all. It is so hard to recover and landing a hit can prove challenging at times. I am sure this will be more than accentuated by the fact that Pac is fast in the air.
/< I haven't played against any Robins at all really. I have to say though, I cannot imagine this match would go down too well for them. Robin is so slow on the ground I cannot imagine them being able to overcome Pac-Man's jab, tilts and dash attacks.

I am happy to discuss these with any of you, of course. I am probably totally wrong, I mean I am not fantastic at this game, but I am pretty dedicated with my Pac and I really feel I understand the character's strengths and weaknesses.

I agree with most of the list except for duck hunt.
We destroy all of DH's projectiles with our hydrant while its rolling, and force him to approach. Meanwhile we crush him in the air (the trampoline makes this even easier), and can easily punish his smash attacks and aerials. Definitely in our favor

I also view the yoshi matchup as much easier than you describe because of the fruit pressure primarily. He can't really get rid of it with the eggs because of how much faster our fruit is than them

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I kind of agree---the so-called "outliers" need love too---but I'm just wondering if we're just gonna keep chasing the proverbial tail of topical **** in this thread anyway. Seems to be the nature of these kinds of discussions.

Anyways, I might weigh in on @ Shaya 's fifteen character list later featuring our favorite self-styled King, D3, later. I can safely say, however, my impressions aren't exactly the sunniest. It's a rough look, man.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NairWizard]

#(pleasedontwarnme)

On a serious note, the only two characters I am reasonably sure will be top tier in a year are Sheik and Diddy. Rosalina and Greninja are relying right now on people not knowing the optimal way to approach the match-ups and are getting away with a ton of nonsense. I am more confident in Rosalina's long-term viability than Greninja's. ZSS has a lot of problems and I think she has been significantly overrated by everybody now, myself included. But it is possible that the GC controller will give ZSS players the precision they need to avoid trades and actually you know, use back air, which is so, so hard to use on the 3DS.

I've been trying to use her lately because of her solid Rosalina matchup, and my findings are that ZSS is really good against tall characters like Rosalina, Shulk, etc., but struggles a lot against shorter characters like Diddy Kong and Ness. Against tall characters, f-air and b-air are much easier to land and SH b-air actually pressures shields. They're also vulnerable to SH paralyzer or B-reverse paralyzer at most heights, and paralyzer to up-b is a solid kill move.

Against small characters, If they shield paralyzer, you only have spaced n-airs to hit them with, and that makes me sad. I find that other tournament players walk forward, shield, know that I won't grab or b-air or anything else, and just put themselves in my face, where their jabs and d-tilts are almost assuredly better than mine (I wish ZSS' jab were just slightly better: either packed more of a punch or had more range).

Subject of Diddy:

Maybe I'm just a bad player, but I've been winning a lot less with Diddy now that opponents know to spot dodge bananas and his monkey flip. With those two options pretty easily averted, Diddy feels a lot less threatening. I still think he's a good character, but not in the top 5 like some people were claiming.

I think Yoshi is absolutely nuts. Lives forever, combos well, kills early, has a great projectile, and has probably the best MU against the character everybody thinks is the best in the game (Rosalina).

You seem to be concerned about maining someone who ends up not being that great (judging based on your other posts about that topic and how you keep asking about the viability of Diddy/Greninja/etc.). I would say, just relax, and play someone that you like. High tier is good enough to win a national. Even mid tier is. And Diddy and others like him certainly won't fall beneath high tier.

Having said that, I do want to point out that Diddy Kong is very strong. Monkey flip is one of the strongest, most versatile moves in the game, and you can tilt/smash it. Bananas are a great pressure tool, and if your opponent is spotdodging them then you might be throwing them out too quickly. Just walk around with a banana in hand (and shield if the opponent has a good projectile like needles), and then wait for your opportunity and strike! Spotdodging is beaten by inserting pauses between your play. Shielding is beaten by monkey flip command grab. Rolling is beaten...just by its nature because if the opponent rolls away he's giving up stage control. If he rolls behind you he'll probably get hit (d-smash is good: call it).

Comparing Yoshi to Diddy on an aspect-by-aspect basis (there is some overlap between aspects here, but this is also for consolidating my thoughts in addition to presenting an argument for food for thought):

* Yoshi is really good, but I don't think that he combos all that well. Diddy's followups and strings are better: you can vector his throw followups but it isn't easy to escape taking any damage between ground, air, and monkey flip (it deserves its own category).

* Yoshi's aerial mobility and aerials are great, but compare them on a move by move basis and you'll see that the difference isn't that huge. Diddy's side-b is better than Yoshi's neutral b for use in the air. Diddy's up-air and f-air are better, while Yoshi's d-air and n-air are better (though Diddy's n-air is really good: don't underestimate this move). Yoshi's d-air in particular is kind of nuts, indeed. B-air is close because Diddy's is surprisingly fast and has a lot of reach but Yoshi probably wins this because of the multi-hit nature of the move. Egg Lay isn't always useful in the air because it goes in an arc above you (though it's useful sometimes), whereas the banana can be thrown into the air to bait a spotdodge or to launch an opponent (Battering Banana). I would give the edge to Yoshi in the air because of that mobility, but the gap isn't very big, imo.

* Specials: His down-b and neutral-b combined are about as useful as Diddy's side-b since the down-b can break shields, but Monkey Flip is seriously so awesome (it can launch opponents super far at higher percents; it has so much range and unpredictability, and it's an escape tool). Yoshi's custom egg lay 3 is a great move to finish characters with bad recoveries, though, so that is a factor. On the other hand, Battering Banana is better than eggs, though eggs are far far better than peanuts. Yoshi's side-b is kind of useless (OK, not totally useless, admittedly). Diddy's rocket is pretty cool; you can arc/angle it, or use it as a surprise attack move on stage.

The general trend of Diddy's specials is to improve his neutral game. The general trend of Yoshi's specials is to...improve his neutral game. I wouldn't give one the edge over the other.

* Ground normals: This is really difficult. Yoshi's jab is far better, but Diddy's d-tilt is good enough to often function in the capacity of a jab, and you can follow up with that monstrous f-air out of it. Up-tilt and f-tilt are unexceptional but useful for both. I'd say that Yoshi's up-smash is better than Diddy's up-smash because of the ways that Yoshi can string into it, but Diddy's f-smash has a lot of reach because he steps forward and I'd give it the edge over Yoshi's f-smash.

Yoshi's dash attack is amazing for approaching, and Diddy's is only good for launching people. But conversely, Diddy's dash-grab is much better than Yoshi's. Yoshi's grab outside of neutral-b has a lot of end lag on it due to being a tether.

* Neutral game: Yoshi walks back and forth throwing eggs and waiting for an opening to dash attack or jump in, airdodge, n-air (yes this works: that n-air comes out super quickly and has a lingering hitbox to catch the airdodge punish attempt). I think that Yoshi's neutral game is good but not great: his jab is good and quick but doesn't reach that far, so he's often relying on his dash attack to approach. He can't really grab to approach, since it's hard to run up and neutral-b (though you can aerial B-reverse it, which is a cool tactic).

Diddy Kong actually doesn't have that strong of a neutral game either: he's all about follow ups. He pulls a banana and waits for an opening to side-b or banana to grab, occasionally firing peanuts. His dash grab is really good due to his ground mobility, too, and that f-air is a monster: maximally spaced, it's difficult to punish and/or shieldgrab. Overall, I'd give the edge to Diddy in neutral. Yoshi vs. Diddy is a good example of how the neutral game pans out in general for them, and I think that Diddy Kong wins this matchup.

* Survivability: As much as I've complained about Diddy's vertical recovery in the past, with monkey flip and angled rocket blasts combined I believe that Diddy is better at recovering than Yoshi, and then when you factor in wall jumps it isn't really a contest. You can usually call Yoshi's second jump and slam him, though egg toss is now absurd for the distance it moves you. On the other hand, side-b is a great escape tool, Diddy can hitstun cancel with peanut popgun, and B-reverses into canceled popguns are as solid as ever. Yoshi is much heavier than Diddy, this is true, but at best I'd call them even in this category. It might be slightly in Yoshi's favor because n-air is a really solid escape tool from combos too. Diddy's roll is better than Yoshi's, for what it's worth, though Yoshi's shield is better for avoiding pokes.

* Kill power: I would give the edge to Diddy here. Bananas and throws are a great tool for setting up for the kill: monkey flip can actually kill, up-air kills so early and you can combo into it in so many ways, f-smash and f-air can kill, even b-throw and f-throw can kill at the edge at very high percents if nothing else works. Yoshi has to read you or do something like jab -> up-smash at a timely moment to kill. He can also up-air you or b-air edgeguard you: up-air is as potent as it ever was, but I find Diddy's up-air much easier to land in this game. It's worth noting that because Yoshi lives longer he does get more time to use Rage, but overall I think Diddy wins this one when you also factor in wall jumping and its situational usefulness as an edgeguarding tool.

* Top-Tier Matchups: A bit rapidfire without a lot of justification (this post would be too massive if I were to try to justify all of these claims: just going for a really general overview): I'm convinced that Diddy loses to Sheik and Rosalina. Needles and Luma are really effective at shutting him down, and Gravitational Pull is the nail in his banana-colored coffin. I think that he loses to Greninja, Villager, and Ness, beats ZSS, Yoshi head to head, and Sonic, and goes even with Fox and Pikachu (Pikachu because of edgeguarding).

Yoshi loses to Sheik but goes even with Rosalina (or beats her), goes even with ZSS and Greninja, beats Villager, Ness (challenges Ness' air game: beats his ground mobility), and Pikachu but loses to Diddy, Sonic, and Fox.

Seems like a decent initial spread for both, with Yoshi taking an edge overall due to that Rosalina and Ness matchup.

So it seems to my view like Yoshi is better at fighting the currently perceived top tiers, but Diddy is better as a general character from the traits identified above (meaning he's more likely to hold strong as the metagame develops). I'd call it fairly even: I don't know enough to make the overall call one way or the other, and no one else really does either, but you shouldn't be having any more trouble using Diddy than you are using Yoshi.

 

[Kofu]

What I meant was, Palutena has the same archtype as Ganon.

An archtype is the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based.

Palutena was based off of the archtype of Ganon. Ganon has, like many others, his own unique archetype. Captain Falcon has a different archetype than the two, but shares similar move designs as Ganondorf.

Palutena was designed off Ganondorf's model, and that model design in itself is pretty horrible.

This doesn't mean that Palutena will share Ganon's playstyle, she has different move designs and requires a different method of play, but some of her moves do function in a similar manner as Ganon's.

Could you elaborate more on this? It's not a viewpoint I'm seeing. Palutena seems much more flexible than Ganon and I'm not seeing the comparison beyond model size (lol) and a handful of move similarities.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I've been trying to use her lately because of her solid Rosalina matchup, and my findings are that ZSS is really good against tall characters like Rosalina, Shulk, etc., but struggles a lot against shorter characters like Diddy Kong and Ness. Against tall characters, f-air and b-air are much easier to land and SH b-air actually pressures shields. They're also vulnerable to SH paralyzer or B-reverse paralyzer at most heights, and paralyzer to up-b is a solid kill move.

Against small characters, If they shield paralyzer, you only have spaced n-airs to hit them with, and that makes me sad. I find that other tournament players walk forward, shield, know that I won't grab or b-air or anything else, and just put themselves in my face, where their jabs and d-tilts are almost assuredly better than mine (I wish ZSS' jab were just slightly better: either packed more of a punch or had more range).

I dunno dude... ZSS' tilts are some of her best moves. Dtilt and ftilt are pretty safe as far as I know (at least I never get punished for them) and they're not slow either. They also have good hitboxes on them. Up tilt occupies a different niche so it's probably not worth talking about in the same breath as the rest of the game's tilts, but it's fast, hits on both sides and kills, so it's not bad either even though it's laggy. Against those kinds of matchups i use a lot of ftilt (especially normal and down angled) and it works okay.

Bair works ok on smaller characters but I think you really need a c-stick to do it. Otherwise I agree with what you're saying here. I wish zair came out faster.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I never felt ZSS had somethin against shulks height.

Think imma keep a pocket Kirby. Shoot I think he may deal with Rosa better than Shulk/Pit. Kirby is a freak when he gets in range. A prime issue for me in shulk vs Rosa is startup on attacks but kirbys normals dont have that problem. Kirby still has approach issues but he can knock off luma easily and quickly due to low lag aerials and tilts. just in general everytime I get in range I feel extremely dangerous.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Kirby is dangerous if he can get in, I just wish it was easier to do follow ups. My heart sinks when I try to pursue somebody for a juggle or an aerial combo, but they're moving faster than I can run or fly after them.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shulk, kirb may have double potential because Kirby with Sonic speed is dumb.

 

[RWB]

Using that /r/smashbros list, I could try out the ones listed at the bottom in the group I'm part of. We're not pros by a long shot, but we might be able to find out stuff about them anyway.

I'm thinking D tier and down.

 

[Tagxy]

I think it would be nice if we could focus on one or a couple character for a bit when doing these "how does this character do vs the cast" discussions. Not that other discussion has to be limited.

My dirty little favourite kill set up for Marth is jab them on the ledge get up and then due to not being able to grab the ledge during hit stun like in previous games, FORWARD SMASHHHHHHHHH TIPPAR.

This made me jump out of my seat at how good it sounded. Now I need to see if thisll work for anyone else.

 

[Conda]

The most useful thing we can do is talk about the characters we 'feel' to be low or mid tier, and talk about their potential. Gotta stop getting hung up on what's going on at the couple of currently public tournaments. There is a lot we could be talking about.

 

[RWB]

The best players within my group play Mii Brawler, Yoshi and ZSS, and there's a decent(not great) Mac.

Could test suspected mid/low tiers against these guys, and take down notes(or just replays, maybe better because then I can be informed of things I do wrong so I can fix it- sad that my recording equipment is garbage).

 

[HeavyLobster]

It's still early so maybe there's some form of counterplay, but otherwise this may be the single most powerful move in the game. It. does. everything. It's offensive, it's defensive, it racks up damage, and it kills. At least 100% spamming tornado with Metaknight is still gimmicky and can be beaten, with DK it seems like a fully legitimate strategy.

It's worth noting that it loses a lot of usefulness on platformless stages like FD, but because of how competitive stage picking works you can easily play around that.

You can be hit at either the beginning or the end of the move, and I think it's possible to airdodge out of it. It also doesn't last as long as Brawl Tornado, and DK is a much bigger target than Meta Knight, so it's not true that you can spam this move 24/7 on Battlefield against a good player without getting punished. It's still pretty abusable and I have no idea how you edgeguard it, but it isn't an autowin button.

 

[kackamee]

The most useful thing we can do is talk about the characters we 'feel' to be low or mid tier, and talk about their potential. Gotta stop getting hung up on what's going on at the couple of currently public tournaments. There is a lot we could be talking about.

I think the hardest thing about trying to discuss character to be mid or low tier (for me at least), is that very few of the characters in the game feel that way to me. Pretty much every character in the game feels extremely solid so it's hard for me to say "This character feels low tier."

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think the hardest thing about trying to discuss character to be mid or low tier (for me at least), is that very few of the characters in the game feel that way to me. Pretty much every character in the game feels extremely solid so it's hard for me to say "This character feels low tier."

Like, this is how I feel with everyone but Olimar. I think it's just, I hate saying "low tier" in the context of this game because being low tier in previous Smash games means a lot worse than it does here;

Like, yeah, Dr. Mario is underwhelming (I find him to actually jump to AWESOME levels with customs cause much better recovery and fast capsule is awesome, actually lets me force approaches against much more characters which is what Doc wants), Ganondorf who is probably still "low" feels like he could easily win with a few good reads just because of how much more controlled the environment is. Could be just me.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What do you guys think about in this game?

Customs help her like you wouldn't believe. Dense Charge Shot + Relentless Missiles = 2-4 projectiles onscreen at once plus Samus herself. Slip Bomb causes trip on hit and I think it may meteor airborne targets, not sure. I personally like her Turbo Missiles too but IDK how useful they are in general, I just like their concept.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Man so much hate on Zard, Trela beats Denti, suddenly he beats Sheik.

Sigh...hive mind is annoying.

 

[kackamee]

What do you guys think about in this game?

I've heard a lot of opinions that she's not very good, but I disagree. Down throw>F-air is a good % dealer and puts you in a good position for follow ups. Samus has a lot of strings that do pretty good damage, and she doesn't have that much of a problem getting kills. I don't think she deals with pressure that well though, which seems to be a killer in this game. But overall I feel like she's really solid and her F-tilt and F-Smash are pretty great.

 

[AvariceX]

(I'm a little late to the party due to typing this out at work over the course of the day)

I like this grouping of characters that @ Shaya suggested to compare each character to
()

Whether or not they are the best they all represent unique challenges for any character to overcome and are all competitively relevant in someway (maybe not the gunner but I'll try not to let that bias slip too much). With that said, here's how I feel about against them:

<: WFT's projectiles are a big problem for Bowser. Even if he weren't so big his speed would still be an issue when weaving through them. When accounting for his size he's also one of the few characters who can be reliably usmashed by WFT if he approaches from above and her usmash is deadly (not to mention partially invincible). In poke wars/footsies he is also one of the few characters who will pretty much always be buried by WFT's jab-3, and once he's in the air (either after taking a clean hit or when he pops out of the bury) he becomes juggle fodder for her nair. Bowser does generally kill a lot earlier than WFT, but he has much worse recovery and she has a much better off-stage/gimping game. Bowser is good at trapping landings, but WFT also has the fastest air-dodge landing recovery in the game by a significant margin. Being such an easy target for WFT's usmash also evens out the KO game a bit, and being so easy to run away from long enough to activate Deep Breathing tips it even further. Bowser's roll cancel grab is pretty good, but WFT's is better.

Also I don't think many people are aware of this yet, but the back foot hitbox of WFT's f-air is unblockable (seriously, try it). In most matchups this doesn't matter because it's too awkward too land, but on Bowser it's really easy. If you're familiar with Melee Captain Falcon's b-air walls, imagine if they were unblockable and you get a decent idea of what Bowser has to deal with here.

I'm not very familiar with Bowser's customs, but WFT's customs make this far worse still for Bowser. Jumbo Hoop alone presents a huge problem for Bowser if he's not at a good angle to stop it with his fire breath.


>: I don't think this one is too bad for WFT, but it's in Diddy's favour. He can move around her projectile game with relative ease and it's actually pretty crazy how effective the peanut gun is at trading with her projectiles as well. The main problem here is Diddy is a small character (WFT's bane) and he's just a little faster. I can actually see a number of parallels between these two, but Diddy's hitboxes are all around better and although WFT has a better projectile game, Diddy doesn't really care about it. I haven't played this matchup enough to have a full understanding of it, but that's my take so far.

>>: This matchup sucks for WFT. The Can stops everything and doesn't even get destroyed by Sun Salutation. She can't grab DHD at all if he's crouching (and even if not her dashing grab seems to whiff randomly on him). WFT can try to go above him but her dair is too telegraphed to be useful as an approach and her nair won't catch him unless you use it far too low to the ground to be safe. The only workable method I've found to approach this matchup is to move through projectiles with shield/crawl/run and mixup between roll cancel grabs (dash grab is basically useless) and pivot ftilts, but a good player will catch on to what leads into each option (stop, shield, drop shield for roll cancel grab vs keep running for pivot ftilt). After that it turns into a game of trying really hard to beat him in a projectile war just by timing your Sun Salutations perfectly. DHD has no reason to approach in this matchup.

=: I don't think either of these characters does anything to really shut the other one down. The reflector is nice but it can be baited and there's a pretty big window of opportunity to take advantage of when that happens. Lasers can be crawled under so he's not really shutting down her approach. In my opinion WFT's juggles and off-stage game work much better versus fast-fallers, but Falco probably has the better overall moveset. This is a really boring match every time I play it, both characters just play super safe until one player makes a mistake; to me that usually indicates an even matchup. Need more experience with this one.

<: Very close but I think WFT edges it out here. Mac's on-stage game is better no question, but WFT can at least make him work to get in with her projectiles. The real problem for Mac is how good WFT is off-stage. Good aerial mobility, good recovery, and long range projectiles mean she can persistently attack him from a position where he can't really fight back. If he does come to the ledge to get close then she has a lot of options to force him off stage where she will almost assuredly gimp him. First is the obvious bthrow. You could roll through that, but WFT has hitboxes behind her, a quick jab-1, ftilt, or dsmash read on that roll and he's offstage again. If he rolls away she just goes back to shooting projectiles. Mac just seems really easy to run from as a character with a high jump and good air control; in all my games versus Mac I have never been hit by his KO uppercut as WFT, but perhaps I just need to play better Macs.

On the plus side for Mac, he's one of the few characters who can easily deal with Jumbo Hoop.

>=: Very similar characters when it comes down to gameplan, but Lucario has Aura which alone probably makes him a little better. I definitely need more matchup experience here but I can't see it being far from even.

??: I'll be honest, I have no idea. I don't think the gunner is very good personally but I've only had like two chances to play this matchup. Playing it out in my imagination I would probably give a slight edge to the gunner actually; the angles of his/her projectile zoning can basically ignore the counter-zoning of WFT's projectiles.

>=: Pretty even, probably in Ness' favour on account of a few small things: He can absorb SS, his bat reflect seems easier to hit in this game or at least easy on SS/Header, and he's a pretty small character. Being so floaty means he's not really going to get juggled by WFT and this matchup will reset to neutral a lot, and Ness is a little better in that position because of his f-air walls. Other than those things nothing really stands out about this matchup.

=?: No idea. Based on my own experience I want to say slightly in WFT's favour but in theorizing I can't really think of an advantage WFT has over his sword. I guess a combination of projectiles and speed could give WFT a slight edge, but Speed Monado definitely gives the speed advantage to Shulk by a pretty wide margin. Need more experience. Ally pls. I thought that was Shulk all these animu characters look the same. I have no idea on the Robin matchup.

>: Definitely in Rosalina's favour but not as bad as some other characters versus Rosalina. Gravitational Pull basically means WFT has to approach, and thus has to deal with Luma. WFT sucks at dealing with small characters, which Luma is, but luckily attacking Luma is optional as long as you can just get around him. Rosalina on the other hand is very tall and WFT is much better at dealing with tall characters. From what I can tell WFT has to slowly try to force Rosalina to the edge where she will either try moving through WFT (rolling/running) which can be covered by WFT's multi-directional hitboxes, or jump over WFT which sets up easy nairs for WFT (or go offstage which is a pretty terrible idea). I think the correct option in most cases is for Rosalina to risk the roll through WFT, take the jab/ftilt hit, and then worst case scenario they get knocked down into a tech chase, best case they reset to neutral and the game starts again. Problem for WFT is Rosalina is better at that neutral game so she's more likely to get more/better hits in the trades which makes it basically always worth it for Rosalina to just risk rolling through WFT or otherwise crossing through her.

I could see Volatile Breathing helping with this matchup, the explosion is so large it will hit Luma from basically anywhere unless he is with Rosalina at the opposite corner of the stage. I actually don't know if Gravitational Pull affects the explosion though.

>: Definitely in Sheik's favour, not a hard counter but harder than Rosalina IMO. Sheik is too fast for WFT to zone out effectively and her needles are one of the very few projectiles that are actually difficult for WFT to work around. Basically everything about Sheik can be compared to WFT but better; better tilts, better smashes, better speed, better combos, better range, better throws (why am I not playing Sheik?). The only advantages WFT has are KO power and air control and even those are very slight. Other than that WFT has her unique burying jab (along with the multi-directional jab-1 hitbox) but I would probably rather have Sheik's jab anyway.


>?: No idea in practice, I haven't played this matchup nearly enough despite my brother being a Sonic/TL main (to be fair he's playing mostly Pacman now). I can see Sonic giving WFT all the same problems that Sheik does (minus needles) but he also has really good aerial mobility so he's even tougher to pin down with projectiles. From what I can tell though Sonic doesn't have the best hitboxes (still better than Brawl) and this is one of the matchups where WFT's normal hitboxes don't seem like much of a hindrance. Sonic is just going to get more opportunities to do damage though and I would predict this matchup to be solidly in his favour.

>>>>>>>deargodplsno>>>>>>nononono>>>>>>>: This is probably one of the worst matchups in the entire game. If I have to switch mains it's probably because of this character. Nothing will even hit this short ****er, s/he can just pocket the soccerball to prevent WFT from using it again or pocket a charged SS and obtain a much better version of SS than WFT has (if both of them press B at the same time to throw a charged SS at each other from about 1/3 FD WFT will get hit because Villager throws that much faster). Like DHD, Villager basically can't be grabbed by WFT and will never be buried by jab-3 with proper vectoring. All of this is without even accounting for Villager having his/her own great projectile game as well as Timber. This matchup suuuucks.


>=: Close to even but mainly in Yoshi's favour due to weight, KO power, and armor (practical immunity to gimps, which are important to WFT). Like the Falco matchup I don't really see either character shutting the other down, but Yoshi is just better.

<=: WFT is weird. All these bad matchups and surprisinly I think she has a pretty good matchup versus one of the perceived top tiers. It's pretty crazy how much better WFT gets against tall characters, and ZSS is tall; this means her unblockable f-air comes into play again like in the Bowser matchup (it wasn't mentioned for Rosalina because Luma make it pretty impractical to land consistently). ZSS anti-air capability is not very good from what I can tell; her jump goes too high and her aerials come out at the wrong angle or too slowly to counter short hop approaches, her utilt is good but doesn't hit far enough in front of her, and her grab still sucks on whiff so shield grabbing is too risky, especially against WFT whose every move can cross up. Her up-angled ftilt might do the job I suppose, but I predict it would trade at best in most situations. Besides that, I don't think I have to explain WFT having a better long-range game than ZSS.

With customs on I'm not sure she can do much of anything about Jumbo Hoop. In fact there's a lot of characters who can't do much about Jumbo Hoop. That one move could change many or all of these matchups.

 

[HiNiTe]

On a serious note, the only two characters I am reasonably sure will be top tier in a year are Sheik and Diddy. Rosalina and Greninja are relying right now on people not knowing the optimal way to approach the match-ups and are getting away with a ton of nonsense. I am more confident in Rosalina's long-term viability than Greninja's. ZSS has a lot of problems and I think she has been significantly overrated by everybody now, myself included. But it is possible that the GC controller will give ZSS players the precision they need to avoid trades and actually you know, use back air, which is so, so hard to use on the 3DS.

We could say that every character is overrated by some logic in the top tier. Rosalina is notorious, but in her case everyone that owns the game thinks she's incredibly powerful, and rightfully so, she has the tools and control that pretty much guarantee she will never leave the Top 5 even with her obvious weaknesses; she's polarizing in every way. I can fight Rosalina, but I still think she's top, no question; I do agree people should stop complaining about her and learn the matchup, it's not that difficult... unless you're below Top 15. Sheik is fast and has good combo strings, but can almost never kill reliably and needs to set up for Bouncing Fish most of the time. ZSS is fast, agile, with kill power but relies on aerials a bit (sorry if that makes your blood boil, I know you're a ZSS main, I have no idea how to play the character in Smash 4 compared to Brawl.) Also, all 3 will benefit from a C-Stick, not just ZSS lol.

I agree about Greninja, though. His Usmash is safe but everything else he has is just "good." People overrate him because of Nietono likely, and he is just a good player at the game and his use of characters.

It's fun and all, but the biggest problem with meta discussion now is how blind a lot of discussion is. I never hear talk on certain amazing characters. Tunnel-vision-ing things more is a ludicroudly bad idea. 90% of people here are literally watching the 2-3 stream channels that show tournaments and are drawing their conclusions based off of them. Look above at the recent DK post to see proof.

Tournament results are important, but they're so limited now that we can't draw everything based on them. We have to be able to think a bit, now just repeat the same preconceptions.

While I do agree with you, we have to be realistic. Characters like Rosalina, Sheik and ZSS will always be discussed because of how they influence the game when you play against them, and notorious as this is, they are the perceived Top 3 at this point in the metagame. Expecting people to talk about Dr. Mario when he is just "Mario but just worse" is nearly effective to describe him won't provide an interesting description among people who do want to discuss the potential of better characters. Also it's funny how you mention DK, a character that only becomes relevant with one ridiculous custom move that may or may not be banned in the future (custom moves in general, I mean, not the custom move itself).

Maybe we can go in an orderly fashion to discuss each character for a certain amount of time so we can observe their strengths and weaknesses and matchups? Sort of like a character-specific match-up discussion, but more generalized and for the whole roster. No one would be left out this way but it might take some time. Also, it might be a good reference for when we all decide to look back at our posts one year from now and possibility laugh at everything we said.

I thought this might be a really perfect place to share this. On /r/smashbros we did an "Upvote/Downvote Tier List" where people could upvote characters they thought were good and downvote those they thought were bad while discussing all of the characters. If that isn't a huge list of impressions on competitive characters I don't know what is!

We plan on doing one of these each month to see how competitive impressions of characters change over time as well, this should be a cool scientific experiment of sorts. Here are our results for this month:

Spoiler

Remember this is obviously not a perfect tier list by any means. This was just a way to rank and discuss the characters in an interesting setting. We're hoping to do this each month and get people's impressions of characters over time. Consider it a cool way to watch our game develop month to month.

If you want to see the thread that inspired this check it out.

I like this list, though ZSS should be higher than Yoshi +1 and Mario should be switched with Jigglypuff. Otherwise, I like it somewhat. (Yes, I am aware this is a community-voted list.)

 

[Berserker.]

=?

Edit: Corrected

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I think we should do like, a character per X amount of time just so the discussion doesn't swing wildly back and forth although I have no idea how well it would work in hindsight, blegh.

 

[AvariceX]

Er.... That's Robin not Shulk

Edited. Animu all looks the same. I have even less clue about the Robin matchup though.

 

[PKNintendo]

 

[InfinityCollision]

ZSS's dtilt is not safe on block afaik due to a combination of low damage (6% at max spacing for some reason), higher endlag, and forward movement. It's a decent mixup on shield though since it comes out pretty fast and can shield poke after a couple of hits. Ftilt does seem to be reasonably safe on shield.

What do you guys think about in this game?

Samus has some good customs, but overall I feel like she ends up working really hard for a less than stellar result. Her jab sucks, her nair got nerfed, can't missile cancel, bombs have limited applications since they don't explode on contact, her customs do still have meaningful limitations, etc... She doesn't wall effectively and she struggles under pressure, which is a bad combination. Realistically I can't see her moving past mid tier and she might be low tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

About the miis.

Them being the worst in the game, gunner and swordsman specifically. I can't see them being the worst in the game and a lot of those viewpoints are more likely people only playing for glory and not knowing what they do or can do.

The number of times I've surprised people with gunners Fsmash and Uair is pretty much everytime I've used them first game.

Their customs give them s lot of depth on options. Most people wouldn't know mii Brawler with the right custom set-up has one of the best recoveries in the game in terms of raw distance.

Swordsman is the worst of the three, by far. Gunner is about as good as brawler dunno which is objectively better though. Brawler still can rack up damage like no other and by far is the best of the three in getting a KO. Gunner might have one of the most obnoxious spacing and camp games of all the characters. Better than DHD? I's actually say yes. But that really all gunner has right there but gunner does it well.

I still think none of them will break mid tier of that, but they all have some solid traits. And it will affect match-ups.

 

[NairWizard]

Characters like Rosalina, Sheik and ZSS will always be discussed because of how they influence the game when you play against them, and notorious as this is, they are the perceived Top 3 at this point in the metagame.

I haven't gotten the feeling that ZSS is perceived top 3 in a while. Choco won Umembra, and Dakpo won a Texas invitational, but we haven't seen or heard much else from the character after that, nor have we heard many people talking about her positive matchups. What we get instead is a lot of top players claiming that ZSS is overrated (which some people, including myself, have also claimed in this thread). The general vote for top 2 is Rosalina and Sheik, but after that it seems like Yoshi/Diddy/Lucario are the three commonly perceived top characters, followed by Sonic and ZSS.

This is all talking about perception, of course: the reality may differ.



--


Most characters in this game are fairly similar to one another. This is the general layout of a smash4 character:

jab for close range, to cover spotdodges and slower attacks
dash attack to approach from a close distance

f-tilt to create space
up-tilt to quickly hit an opponent who is on top of you or slightly to one side, sometimes combo
d-tilt as an alternative to jab that pokes and can also launch (jab doesn't always launch)

f-air, b-air to edgeguard (rarely to approach in this game)
n-air to get out of combos
d-air to spike
u-air to juggle

f-smash and up-smash reads to kill/landing trap
d-smash to cover rolls

roll/spotdodge/airdodge is mostly standard

up-special to recover
usually one special move devoted to projectiles
then a wildcard special move or two, these can be character-defining (Charizard's Flare Blitz for instance, or Sonic's down and side bs)

So I think that it's difficult to talk about less used characters because there are often simply better versions of those characters. The movests aren't that diverse. There is a ton of similarity.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think your oversimplifying those traits. I agree overlap exists in any fighter but in this interaction outside of the clones there are a lot more niche and defilement in this game.

 

[The Real Gamer]

So I think that it's difficult to talk about less used characters because there are often simply better versions of those characters. The movests aren't that diverse. There is a ton of similarity.

.. yeah I disagree entirely

Sure multiple characters are meant to fit a specific fighting archetype but the way said characters go about executing their ideal playstyle is vastly different.

Pac and Duck Hunt both fill a niche as long range zoners that are reliant on heavy projectile usage to establish stage control, but they play nothing alike.

Sonic and Falcon are both rushown characters that rely on their speed to overwhelm the opponent. They play nothing alike.

Samus and link use a variety of long/mid range tools to safely weave in and out of battle. Once again similar concept vastly different execution.

Bowser and Zard... greninja and sheik... Ike and Shulk... the list goes on.

Other than clones it's a massive oversimplification to state that "x" character is simply a better version of "y" character. The playstyle diversity in this game is one of its strong points especially compared to traditional fighters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

So I think that it's difficult to talk about less used characters because there are often simply better versions of those characters. The movests aren't that diverse. There is a ton of similarity.

Play Akuma/Gouki like any other shoto in SF4. I dare you.

You're oversimplifying to the point of homogenization...which doesn't quite work in a fighting game where everybody has varying moves and innate properties.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NairWizard]

.. yeah I disagree entirely

Sure multiple characters are meant to fit a specific fighting archetype but the way said characters go about executing their ideal playstyle is vastly different.

Pac and Duck Hunt both fill a niche as long range zoners that are reliant on heavy projectile usage to establish stage control, but they play nothing alike.

Sonic and Falcon are both rushown characters that rely on their speed to overwhelm the opponent. They play nothing alike.

Samus and link use a variety of long/mid range tools to safely weave in and out of battle. Once again similar concept vastly different execution.

Bowser and Zard... greninja and sheik... Ike and Shulk... the list goes on.

Other than clones it's a massive oversimplification to state that "x" character is simply a better version of "y" character. The playstyle diversity in this game is one of its strong points especially compared to traditional fighters.

I'm actually not talking about archetypes such as Greninja and Sheik or Ike and Shulk. I'm talking about flat-out character superiority. Greninja is better than Captain Falcon: there may be matchups where Falcon does a little better because of his dash grab or his up-air juggling, but for the most part you can say that Greninja executing his gameplan is scarier than Falcon executing his gameplan. You needn't go into their specific matchups (I mean, you can if you want) when it's so obvious at a glance at their movesets that there's more to fear from Greninja than there is to fear from Captain Falcon other than Falcon's grab. Shurikens, hydro pump gimps, Greninja's generally low profile (which makes hitting him extremely difficult), and Greninja's ability to escape are way scarier than anything Captain Falcon has (OK, side-b being a kill move is scary).

How you play or execute doesn't matter, imo. What you're good at is what matters.