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Character Competitive Impressions

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Ulevo

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I don't agree with that statement. viable is when most of your MUs are winnable. in that regard, every character is viable, it's just some needs a secondary to help with a boo boo MU
That's not the definition of viable. Any match up is winnable. It is a matter of how likely you are to win, and thus how likely you are to consistently place, that determines viability.

The word viability has no value outside the context of tournaments because if you do not need to win then no one cares about the discussion.
 

Asdioh

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It's possible to get out of the cyclone but some characters are too floaty to do it. Specifically, I think Jigglypuff and Mewtwo can't escape it [at least I've never managed to do it with them] but most characters should be able to do it if you manage to sneak in enough down + away inputs before the final hit connects. If you play DDD/Ryu it's probably not that hard to get ou.
Can confirm. I feel like Kirby could have a fine matchup against Luigi, if it wasn't for the fact that dthrow->downB is a guaranteed kill from anywhere on the stage at like 80% and higher. I have taken the local Luigi to last hit many times, and always eventually lose because I eventually will get grabbed (you can't separate Luigi from his hands, like you could separate Ice Climbers :c) so his setups are guaranteed, unlike mine. Like in the last 2 stock Bo3 I played, I got it to game 3 last stock, and I lost 5 stocks throughout the set, and probably 4 of those were Dthrow cyclone. But yeah he's confirmed that it's harder to do on fastfalling, heavy characters like Megaman.
Yeah, I kinda figured it had to be character-specific to a point. D3's fatass fallspeed probably contributes to falling out so easily after proper DI (which, funnily, I kinda intuitively guessed? Haha). Thanks, Gheb, explains a lot.
So yeah, this.

Luigi's neutral game is perhaps his biggest weakness in smash 4. Sure he's a annoying little **** that escape combos and combo you back even worse(:4luigi: vs :4fox: in a nutshell) but he get's zoned out pretty easy compared since he doesn't have the speed to approach. Luigi's best approach is fireball but even then like @TriTails said certain character's have an answer for luigi's fireballs.

Edit: Also luigi being top 3 is pretty debateable. At one hand luigi has all these bad matchups in theory but at another he has all these amazing tourney results
Luigi clearly isn't top 3. If it weren't for Dthrow cyclone, I feel like even Kirby would have an advantaged matchup against him, because it's so easy to get around fireballs and Luigi's poor mobility/poor shielding due to traction. And as we were just saying, Dthrow->Cyclone is less devastating on heavier/fastfalling characters, most of which are higher tier than fat floaties like M2/Kirby/Jiggs. Also, Luigi's disadvantage is really bad. Yeah Nair is a great combo breaker, but when you know it's his only option, you just have to shield and punish. He doesn't have the airspeed or "get out of jail free" card like Diddy/ZSS/Sheik/Pikachu have. Heck, last time I played against a Luigi, I was able to constantly beat his Nair with Kirby's Upair, which completely confused me, because Nair is notorious for having a ridiculous hitbox, and Kirby's aerials are notorious (in my eyes) for his feet not being disjointed, and being part of his hurtbox. \(o_o)/

what do you guys think of :4luigi: vs :4falcon:? i've never seen this MUs play out before and was just wondering how it would play out. I think luigi has advantage.
If Luigi can consistently gimp Falcon with Cyclone, it might be scary, but otherwise I think Falcon might win. Falcon's safe-on-shield Bair becomes even safer because of Luigi's traction, and his speed will be hard for Luigi to react to, regardless of fireballs. It's probably close to even.
 

Baby_Sneak

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If Luigi can consistently gimp Falcon with Cyclone, it might be scary, but otherwise I think Falcon might win. Falcon's safe-on-shield Bair becomes even safer because of Luigi's traction, and his speed will be hard for Luigi to react to, regardless of fireballs. It's probably close to even.
But lugi combos falcon harder than falcon combos luigi. capt. falcon has to play more precise, since if he misses up, lugi goes to work on him. I think this MU goes to lugi since he has more margins of error to work with.
 

Seagull Joe

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Viability describes how likely a character is to be winning tourneys. I base my tier lists always on actual results, matchups, and suspected viability. The difference in tiers describes viability. As you go from S to G in my list, it only means those characters in lower tiers are less likely to win any tourneys compared to the ones above them. I think I did a fair job putting characters in respective tiers even if the position within that tier isn't super accurate yet.

Overall, I feel like my tier list is accurate for the tiers, but the order can change within the tier as people adapt and patches happen.

:018:
 

Baby_Sneak

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Viability describes how likely a character is to be winning tourneys. I base my tier lists always on actual results, matchups, and suspected viability. The difference in tiers describes viability. As you go from S to G in my list, it only means those characters in lower tiers are less likely to win any tourneys compared to the ones above them. I think I did a fair job putting characters in respective tiers even if the position within that tier isn't super accurate yet.

Overall, I feel like my tier list is accurate for the tiers, but the order can change within the tier as people adapt and patches happen.

:018:
would you say Matchups>Tiers? as in, it's more important that you know Match-ups more than which character is the best and the worst? That's kinda what my mind is atm
 

Nidtendofreak

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@ Seagull Joe Seagull Joe For patched characters: Ike has gotten 3rd in a 80+ tournament, Ryo has continued to win his tournaments in Florida, Ringo got top 5 in a 100+ tournament, a few of the lower level Ikes are starting to place top 3 in locals a lot more often as well. If you take the word of other top players into consideration, Zero says Ike is either the very top of mid or more likely high tier now.

In this topic there was a list of characters that have won regionals recently, Falco was on that list. Don't know the details, but he was there.

Nairo has pulled out a Lucina. Largely for trolling, but results are results if you want to go that route. You already have the Marth result, I'm not up to date on Charizard or Link, though the Link position looks fine (with Toon Link being very weirdly placed but that's not patch related)
 

Ffamran

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Have any of those characters done anything in tournaments since the patch? Honestly curious here. Has :4falco:, :4link:, :4charizard:, or any other patched character done something? At least Ally won tourneys as :4marth:. I haven't seen :4lucina: do jack squat.

:018:
I'm going to be a smart *** because it's fun. :p

Ally went through a tournament with mostly Falco and ended with Mario during grand finals against an Olimar and Dr. Mario for Project Playhem 16 with the playlist here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLg44i0CClXG6MN6Zhsv21IoO4M3UkKc3x. Rayquaza, the Rosalina player, wasn't there, so how you would view that is up to you. Keitaro has been taking 2nd at The Break's weeklies with Falco after the patch and after a stream goal was met locking Keitaro to only use Falco for July and at EVO; first tournament for his Falco streak started here: http://8wayrun.challonge.com/thebreak315ssb4. Attila_ or BIGBOSS as he's known now took 1st a regional in Australia with Falco. Eshura took 1st against Max Ketchum at for this tournament in Colorado and Cyro also took 9th at at Fire & Dice's Smash or Die Young 6.

They're weeklies with 1 regional which isn't anything different from pre-patch. His aerials are safer, more reliable, and faster, that's it. Falco didn't get a magical buff that lead to these tournament wins. I think it's more of the players' skill rather than the patch having to do with anything major for Falco. The patch more or less was an improved quality of life thing for Falco rather than something like patch 1.1.1: Falco runs as fast as DK.

Even before the patch, Falco could place in the around top 15 even with stacked tournaments - well, relative to the scene. Gamegenie been doing fine with his Falco, Robin, and Lucina, Kato and Liquid place decently at CA's tournaments, and Zanryo, Domino, and Dao place well at TX's. Eshura took out Fishbait's Captain Falcon, Fox, and last resort Marth for 1st before the patch where Falco's Uair was still frame 10, Fair was frame 12 and had 32 frames of landing lag, and Nair didn't connect well. Happened on June 6 - just 8 days before the patch came out. At the same time, you have to consider this: Fishbait's apparently not in Colorado anymore or in the competitive scene anymore. He was #1 for Colorado's PR, but if he's not there, then does it really "count"? His play during grand finals wasn't spectacular compared to his past plays. It was like he was breaking down and worn out which considering Falco's punish options and Fishbait pulling out Marth of all characters can be used against Falco winning anything.

The patch were quality of life stuff to Charizard, Falco, Ike, Link, Lucina, Marth, and Meta Knight. Some of them were already strong characters like Ike and Meta Knight, others got better tools like Charizard, Link, Lucina, and Marth, and one of them became a safer character in the air, Falco. If a patch 1.1.0 made it so Marth did on average, 10% more with tippers and 5% more with sour-spots, so a tipper Side Smash does 28% uncharged, then maybe that would shoot Marth up. Maybe not top tier, but that kind of power would be considered broken to say the least.
 

Seagull Joe

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@ Seagull Joe Seagull Joe For patched characters: Ike has gotten 3rd in a 80+ tournament, Ryo has continued to win his tournaments in Florida, Ringo got top 5 in a 100+ tournament, a few of the lower level Ikes are starting to place top 3 in locals a lot more often as well. If you take the word of other top players into consideration, Zero says Ike is either the very top of mid or more likely high tier now.

In this topic there was a list of characters that have won regionals recently, Falco was on that list. Don't know the details, but he was there.

Nairo has pulled out a Lucina. Largely for trolling, but results are results if you want to go that route. You already have the Marth result, I'm not up to date on Charizard or Link, though the Link position looks fine (with Toon Link being very weirdly placed but that's not patch related)
Ryo's area (Gainesville) is notably not that great. Where are these other tourneys :4myfriends: and :4falco: are doing well? Some areas are NOT good.

Nairo has pulled out multiple characters, but he's not going to go solo :4lucina: in tourney. He'd outright lose.

NOTE TO PEOPLE: You cannot make a tier list with the idea of characters being better when they need a secondary to make them more viable.
I'm going to be a smart *** because it's fun. :p

Ally went through a tournament with mostly Falco and ended with Mario during grand finals against an Olimar and Dr. Mario for Project Playhem 16 with the playlist here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLg44i0CClXG6MN6Zhsv21IoO4M3UkKc3x. Rayquaza, the Rosalina player, wasn't there, so how you would view that is up to you. Keitaro has been taking 2nd at The Break's weeklies with Falco after the patch and after a stream goal was met locking Keitaro to only use Falco for July and at EVO; first tournament for his Falco streak started here: http://8wayrun.challonge.com/thebreak315ssb4. Attila_ or BIGBOSS as he's known now took 1st a regional in Australia with Falco. Eshura took 1st against Max Ketchum at for this tournament in Colorado and Cyro also took 9th at at Fire & Dice's Smash or Die Young 6.

They're weeklies with 1 regional which isn't anything different from pre-patch. His aerials are safer, more reliable, and faster, that's it. Falco didn't get a magical buff that lead to these tournament wins. I think it's more of the players' skill rather than the patch having to do with anything major for Falco. The patch more or less was an improved quality of life thing for Falco rather than something like patch 1.1.1: Falco runs as fast as DK.

Even before the patch, Falco could place in the around top 15 even with stacked tournaments - well, relative to the scene. Gamegenie been doing fine with his Falco, Robin, and Lucina, Kato and Liquid place decently at CA's tournaments, and Zanryo, Domino, and Dao place well at TX's. Eshura took out Fishbait's Captain Falcon, Fox, and last resort Marth for 1st before the patch where Falco's Uair was still frame 10, Fair was frame 12 and had 32 frames of landing lag, and Nair didn't connect well. Happened on June 6 - just 8 days before the patch came out. At the same time, you have to consider this: Fishbait's apparently not in Colorado anymore or in the competitive scene anymore. He was #1 for Colorado's PR, but if he's not there, then does it really "count"? His play during grand finals wasn't spectacular compared to his past plays. It was like he was breaking down and worn out which considering Falco's punish options and Fishbait pulling out Marth of all characters can be used against Falco winning anything.

The patch were quality of life stuff to Charizard, Falco, Ike, Link, Lucina, Marth, and Meta Knight. Some of them were already strong characters like Ike and Meta Knight, others got better tools like Charizard, Link, Lucina, and Marth, and one of them became a safer character in the air, Falco. If a patch 1.1.0 made it so Marth did on average, 10% more with tippers and 5% more with sour-spots, so a tipper Side Smash does 28% uncharged, then maybe that would shoot Marth up. Maybe not top tier, but that kind of power would be considered broken to say the least.
All of those brackets lacked good players. Not a good example.
:018:
 
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NewZen

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But lugi combos falcon harder than falcon combos luigi. capt. falcon has to play more precise, since if he misses up, lugi goes to work on him. I think this MU goes to lugi since he has more margins of error to work with.
Difference here is that:4falcon:has the mobility to actively pressure:4luigi:, whereas :4luigi:'s screw-ups are guaranteed combo-food for:4falcon:. Yes, you could argue that :4luigi: has the Fireballs to keep him at bay, but:4falcon:can simply jump over them forcing:4luigi:to actively do something else instead of zone him out. That, and :4falcon: Dashgrab being better than :4luigi:'s also isn't in the Green Machine's favor.

You do have a point, however, in that if :4luigi:i does grab :4falcon:, that's a basically a free 40-50% combo going (This is the highest I've gotten with :4luigi: Vs. :4falcon: while near the edge and led to an offstage combo), and almost all of Falcon's aerials cannot compete with N-air or F-air.
 

NachoOfCheese

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New subject: could Dark Pit actually end up higher on the tier list than regular Pit?

The reason I'm thinking that there's a chance is that Dark Pit can actually one hit KO Luma with his sideB by knocking it straight off the stage, something regular Pit can't do. Perhaps, as the metagame envolves, this could become somewhat of a game changer in this matchup. Should this difference prove to be non-trivial then we may face a seemingly paradoxical situation in which Pit ends up lower on the tier list despite being 'objectively' better. It really depends on whether Pit's stronger ftilt and more agile arrows end up being important in other matchups but there's a chance that it's not enough to make up for the disadvantage he faces against Rosalina compared to his dark iteration.

I wonder how @Dabuz feels about the difference between the Pit's in this matchup. Is it a big deal, yay or nay?

:059:
Personally, the characters are so similar that if you are a Pit ain, you are, by definition, a Dark Pit main. Other than Ftilt, arrows, and Electroshock they are the same character. So in terms of a tier list, I'd just put them as the same character because as a whole if I mained Pit I would switch to Dark Pit for the Rosalina matchup. He is by far the most clone-y clone in all of Smash unless you count Nana as a clone of Popo or something.
 

Seagull Joe

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would you say Matchups>Tiers? as in, it's more important that you know Match-ups more than which character is the best and the worst? That's kinda what my mind is atm
I mean...in tournament, matchups are far more important then knowing which characters are top, high, mid, and low tier. You can lose to a low tier if you aren't familiar with the matchup or you get outplayed. Happens from time to time. In brawl I mained :wolf:. I knew almost all my matchups very much so. I had to outplay opponents and use the knowledge of my character and lack of knowledge my opponent had to win some of the time.

Also: Make sure to vote :wolf: into smash 4 people!
:018:
 
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Sir Tundra

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:4villager: is the single most overrated character. With customs, he's godlike. Without? One of the worst high tier characters as you climb up the levels of players.

:018:
Fair enough mate. I do agree that :4villager: can infact be very overrated at times without customs. However imo villager should at the very least be a top 15 character.
 

NachoOfCheese

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I mean...in tournament, matchups are far more important then knowing which characters are top, high, mid, and low tier. You can lose to a low tier if you aren't familiar with the matchup or you get outplayed. Happens from time to time. In brawl I mained :wolf:. I knew almost all my matchups very much so. I had to outplay opponents and use the knowledge of my character and lack of knowledge my opponent had to win some of the time.

Also: Make sure to vote :wolf: into smash 4 people!
:018:
Wolf had a decent Metaknight matchup didn't he? Like above average at least iirc which was extremely important in Brawl.
 

Ffamran

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All of those brackets lacked good players. Not a good example.
:018:
I did make a point on how when Ally used Falco, Rayquaza wasn't there and since I'm not familiar with Michigan, so probably their good players weren't there either. The matches Ally had with his Falco were curbstomps where Ally's skill as a player destroyed the other player. Eshura's good, but when Fishbait's not there, I don't remember seeing any of the other Colorado PR members at the recent tournament and only Max Ketchum and Toronto Joe? - pretty sure he's a good Fox player - were there... So, three good players and then the others. Keitaro's good, but False is much better which leads to something like you or Boss taking S@X when Snow, VaBengal, or a visitor like Nairo isn't there. The times Larry Lurr used his Falco were also curbstomps against "no-names".

Falco or any character taking a tournament is never impossible. Now, if Ally took a tournament with Falco against Dabuz's Rosalina, Zex's Sheik, Larry Lurr's Fox, False's Sheik, MVD's Diddy, ESAM's Pikachu, Nietono's Fox, and Fatality's Captain, then that's something for Falco unless it turns out everyone, but Ally was sick that day or something like Dabuz broke his arm, but still decided to compete cause his hand wasn't busted or it was a Falco-only tournament. So, Falco, Ike, etc. took tournaments, but not important tournaments. The only important tournament Falco showed up at was CEO and he was taken out in a body bag - Dao vs. Dabuz ended up with Dabuz murdering Dao's Falco and Diddy. Shulk, Ike, and even Samus did better at CEO than Falco.

Edit: Forgot about Attilla_'s part. Yeah, I know nothing about Australia's scene other than there's a good Wii Fit Trainer and that Shaya's from there. So... yeah.
 
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Vipermoon

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So you guys asking about Lucina viability compared to Marth this patch.

The jab change helped Marth immensely more than it helped Lucina.

Before I start I'll start I'll mention this difference. Marth's Jab 2 gets inputted as soon as frame 17 and Lucina's 18 (for some reason). They both used to be 20. This doesn't matter too much. Lucina's jab still combos into itself.

So anyway. Marth has Jab to Fsmash, Jab to Ftilt, and Jab to Utilt to rely on for killing early. Lucina's Utilt and Ftilt as still super weak and obviously she doesn't have the tipper Fsmash setup so she relies on a weaker one. Another thing is jab. Marth's sour jab severely helps him in the very high percents and his tipper jab is strong enough to put people into tumble at lower percents with rage. Lucina doesn't have a tipper jab, though it's still vertical KB at the tip, it's not strong enough to create combos. When people get used to double jumping out of jab 1 when it doesn't combo (most of the time it doesn't) Lucina will have it the worst.

Of course, the Nair landing lag and DS KBG benefitted them the same.

I think the Utilt buff benefitted Marth more. His is now extremely powerful and Lucina kills at similar percents to Uthrow so what's the point? Neither character gained more Utilt combos than the other. Only the percents they work (very small windows) are different.

Add this to every other way Marth is better and it's clear there's at least a tier of difference. But not 3 tiers.
 
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GeneralLedge

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I wonder how hypothetical patches could put Lucina on the same level as Marth. Lower aerial and/or landing lag to make up for her shorter range?
 
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Mario766

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I wasn't aware that not having Rayquaza meant that a tournament was free. There were still major threats at the tournament. Loe1 was there and he beats Ally on a consistent basis. Nom has been pulling out impressive results, and beat Loe1 not once, but TWICE. Coco also pulled out another very impressive result since his massive run earlier in the year. The only real threats not at this project playhem is Rayquaza and Zinoto, who was taking time off due to being sick.
 

Ffamran

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I wasn't aware that not having Rayquaza meant that a tournament was free. There were still major threats at the tournament. Loe1 was there and he beats Ally on a consistent basis. Nom has been pulling out impressive results, and beat Loe1 not once, but TWICE. Coco also pulled out another very impressive result since his massive run earlier in the year. The only real threats not at this project playhem is Rayquaza and Zinoto, who was taking time off due to being sick.
Like I said, I don't know about Michigan's scene which is sad since I live a state over. Not sure about Seagull knowing. Forgot about LOE1, though. He gave Ally a run for his money at the recent E2C tournament.

Edit: As a Falco player, I have an innate sense of dread when I see Rosalina. She's like the final boss or level 10 threat. Diddy, Sheik, Yoshi, or Luigi? Whatever, they're threats, but Rosalina... *shudders*
 
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Luco

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Edit: Forgot about Attilla_'s part. Yeah, I know nothing about Australia's scene other than there's a good Wii Fit Trainer and that Shaya's from there. So... yeah.
It's less about player skill and more about MUs. To contend with Attila you have Earl, V, Shaya. Luke, Waveguider, and more (EDIT: lawl tortologies). Falco's worst MU is Rosalina, which Australia lacks a good player for. I can't remember but if Falco lacks a good MU against Sheik, Pika, Sonic or Luigi, then that made it even better. It's true that much of the time you're playing a player more than a character, but I believe this does have the ability to affect results.

Like, some of our top-placing characters include :4wiifit: and :4littlemac:, so take that as you may.

This isn't to discredit Attila's win, but it could be argued that our scene lacks certain top tier characters that effectively make other characters... More viable. A few Ness mains place pretty well in Australia too (like Pazx, though I guess in reality he mains Diddy) because of a lack of Rosa, Sheik, Sonic and Luigi rep. Lol. All of Ness' worst MUs are hilariously absent from our scene. :laugh: (Suppose I was a sham! :3 )
 
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Severn

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I wonder how hypothetical patches could put Lucina on the same level as Marth. Lower aerial and/or landing lag to make up for her shorter range?
Depending on much less endling and landing lag they would decide to give her that could just make her better than marth. Less landing lag and ending lag on aerials is something they both desperately need.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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@ Seagull Joe Seagull Joe I think you wanted results. When people gave you results you started calling out people's scenes. Which isn't cool. It's not as though your region is a powerhouse.
 

Scarlet Jile

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Obviously, I object to the notion that there's an E, F and G tier. I don't think the gap between most of the cast justifies so many different tiers. I do agree that there's an S tier and that Sheik and Rosalina occupy it exclusively, though I think that's subject to change in the future when we figure out how to expose Rosalina (like what happened to Snake).

I also clearly object to the notion that Ganondorf is one of the bottom 4 characters in the game when @Ray_Kalm has been getting respectable results in some pretty competitive events.

And I don't know why, but ever since @ Ffamran Ffamran mentioned crack, I've been fiending hard. Thinking about doing some crimes.
 

hypersonicJD

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I mean it's an opinion. And I had to respect it. But I think it was just too sudden to come up with that type of tier list with no reason whatsoever. I think Seagull needed to explain why he placed the characters like that.

Sorry for the flaming Seagull.

I think i'll make my own Tier List right now. I'll try to explain the placement of the characters.

S: :4sheik: :rosalina: (Rosalina and her Luma are insanely powerful. Some good aerials, the best spacing tools in the game, Up Air ridiculous range, pretty strong Smash Attacks and a good recovery. With his little Luma she is pretty strong. The thing you need to know is that Rosalina without Luma is actually a C tier character. And that's really bad. She gets down from the top tiers, to the bottom tiers. She is just so godlike with his Luma and her powered up Smash Attacks or any attacks in general. But when she's alone she isn't that great anymore. And then we get to Sheik. Without a doubt the best character in the game. She does require a little bit of practice to get used to her. Bouncing Fish has to be one of the most effective edge guarding tools in the game. She just goes so far with so little effort. And she can come back to the stage with no problem whatsoever. She also has an insane Forward Air that can be auto canceled and it can just go almost to the end of the stage and finish you off with a Bouncing Fish. Needles are really good for pressure, her aerials doesn't have any lag at all, She can do strings of Forward Tilts and then continue with some Forward Airs or Up Airs, Amazing grabs (Down Throw and Forward Throw). Tipper Up Smash kills pretty early, And she can even do a bait with Down Throw. She throws you with Down Throw, jumps and then she does her teleport and takes the stock. She can also go really deep for a kill and still get back on the stage. She is just amazing with everything she does and almost no one can stop her. And she gets even better with Customs.
A+: :4sonic: :4luigi: :4ness: :4pikachu: :4villager: :4zss: (I don't think some of this characters need explanation. But even then I'll still do it. Sonic has a really good mind game with Spin Dashes, can block almost inmediatily with Spin Dash into Shield, good aerials, good smash attacks. Spring is good for pursuits in the air, the fastest character in the game, good pivot grabbing and good specials. He's a damn solid character but he loses to the top tiers and has a really hard time againts R.O.B. Luigi is still here because even with his bad match-ups he still has an amazing combo game. Fireballs are still a good cover for him and a free grab if they are normal blocked and he gets the job done on Mario pretty easily. And Mario is one of the most balanced characters in the game and he still loses to Luigi. Ness also has a pretty good combo game with grabs and Forward Air, Neutral Air is stupidly fast and a good out of shield option. Can absorb energy projectiles and has good specials. Only downside: He can be gimped really easy thanks to his poor recovery. Since his only chance is PK Thunder. Pikachu is one of the masters of how to combo. Insane combo and damage output. Not because his attacks are strong. But because he can rack them up so fast and so safely. Quick Attack has to be the best teleport in the game and he is a master at recovering on the stage. But here's the thing: You can kill Pikachu easily because he is a lightweight. So you need to concentrate againts him and don't lose control. That way you will kill him no matter how hard he tries to kill you because Pikachu does have trouble killing. Villager is an amazing zoning character with good aerials and now with a Throw Combo. He has a pretty good recovery and his tree is a good gimmick move to kill people. He gets beated by reflector/fast characters though. Zero Suit Samus is almost an S tier character. She also has one of the best movesets in the game. Amazing aerials, Some of the best Special moves in the game, pretty good ground attacks. Then what the hell she isn't in the S tier list? Pretty simple: Her grab. She has a pretty bad and laggy grab that doesn't let her get into her bread and butter combos like Down Throw into Up Air, Up Air, Up B. Or Back Throw into Down B (Only at certain percents in some specific characters).
A: :4mario: :4falcon: :4fox: :4diddy: :4miibrawl: :4lucas:(Lucas is here because I think he does deserve more recognition. He also has some of the best throws in the entire game and his neutral air strings are pretty insane. PK Fire is a good zoning move, his aerials have disjoints and don't have too much lag. Mario is a pretty balanced character and easy to pick up. He has a really good spread of match-ups in the entire game and he has a little bit of chance on beating the S Tiers. Captain Falcon has an insane neutral and some of the best movesets in the entire game. But his disavantages againts some characters are really bad. Fox is here because he does have a good neutral game and can rack-up damage really easily. Also his Jab combo into Up Air is still ridiculous for me. But it's quite good. Diddy Kong even with his nerfs it's still strong and viable. Banana is just an amazing tool for him and we keep seeing new stuff from him.

A-: :4yoshi: :4feroy: :4megaman: :4peach: :4ryu: (I putted Peach in here because since she hasn't been explored, she has some good potential. I have seen some pretty good peaches in For Glory and have played other peaches in online tourneys. The same goes for Yoshi and Megaman. They are pretty good characters but in other ways: Yoshi is good with his combos, spacing and his Neutral Air is pretty damn fast on shield. Megaman is a good zoning character that can kill other top tiers pretty easily. Like Captain Falcon. Roy has some really good damage outpot and some of the strongest Smash Attacks in the game. Specially Forward Smash. Not at Tipper Marth level but it's still pretty good.)

B+: :4link: :4myfriends: :4bowserjr: :4falco: :4wario2: :4miigun::4marth: :4shulk:(The Mid-High Tier characters. Link has improved pretty nicely and you need to be more careful when you approach him. The same with Ike. Bowser.Jr has some unexplored. Falco also got some really good buffs that make him get in here. And Wario because he has some pretty good protection with his Bike and has some good attacks like Forward Air, Neutral Air, and his jab his good for spacing. Mii Gunner is a good spacing character too. But some of his attacks really have some bad hitboxes or aren't as good as other characters attacks. Marth is one of thoser characters that even though they change pretty often in the games, they can still be good. Marth has changed his playstyle from being a rush-down Sword Man, into a Punishing and edge guarding Sword Man. Now you need to play really smart with Marth. If you do calculate your choices and make good decisions on the match, you can win pretty easily with him. With his buffs to his jab now he has more options to space himself and even a Tippered Forward Smash confirm with a Jab Cancel or something like that. I don't like how Marth plays in this game. But even then I have to admit that the player and the chracter need to be smart and patient to be really good. Although I would recommend a secondary because Marth does have trouble with some match-ups like Fox, Captain Falcon or Sonic. Shulk has been a really long debate. Zero thinks that he's Top Tier with Customs. Other people say that he sucks. And other people just can't decide. I think that Shulk is a good character. His Monado Arts are pretty amazing and help him alot on his matches. Speed is really good for catching up with Sonic, Fox, Captain Falcon or Sheik. Jump is good for offstage pursuits and getting back on the stage. Shield makes him so heavy and hard to kill. But even then he can be gimped with a thrown or another gimmick attack like Mario's Cape or FLUDD. Buster is just amazing to rack up damage quickly and you can feel the satisfaction of getting every single hit while you have your Buster activated. And Smash art is uself to get some pretty early kills. If Shulk actually got some attack end lag reductions. He would easily be in any A Tier Class. His frame data just stops him from being one of the best characters in the game.

B: :4kirby: :4charizard: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4rob: :4duckhunt: :4miisword: :4greninja: :4gaw: :4lucina: :4metaknight: (Middle tiers. Pit and Dark Pit are really good on their own. But you really do need a secondary character to be effective and have results. Kirby is the highest in here because he has pretty good air mobility, good aerials, good attacks and a pretty good recovery. The problem with him is that he has some bad Specials like Down B or Up B. With customs he is easily an A Tier. Charizard is in here thanks to his buffs and now he has more reliable tools to get damage. R.O.B has some good attacks and really nice frame traps like Down Throw into Up Air. But his problem is that you can pick-up his gyros and just block his laser. Duck Hunt Dog relies too heavily in proyectiles and he gets destroyed by fast characters. Although he can also zone them too. Grenina back in Smash 3DS days, was a top tier character. Good aerials, fast approach, a good projectile and damaging Smash Attacks. Then... The Greninja nerfs came. And he went from A or A+ tier to Middle Tier. He hasn't had a good time around this days. But even then he's still a really solid character. He still has his good approaches and good aerials. But he doesn't have the killing power he had in 3DS days. Mr. Game and Watch has some good aerials, nice recovery and some good ground attacks. But he's a lightweight. So he can't compete properly since he gets killed to early and sooo many times. If he was given more weight and better ground attacks. He would be pretty solid. Even go to A- Tier. Lucina is still a Marth Clone and though I don't like this at all. She still has the good aerials that Marth does, only with less damage and no tipper. I would love her to be faster than Marth so that way we could get a difference between them. Even then Lucina can still do good in a tournament. You could use a secondary with her though.

B-: :4jigglypuff: :4olimar: :4tlink: :4dedede: :4dk: :4samus: :4bowser: (Getting tired of explanations X_X. Jigglypuff has a really good aerial mobility and good aerials. But she isn't so strong on the ground and gets killed pretty easily. Although Jiggly mains can be good enough to avoid being killed so easily. Olimar is pretty good on the ground and has some good match-ups with Top Tier characters. But then he gets destroyed by other characters like Sonic, Pikachu, Little Mac and many more. Toon Link has some good projectiles and with them a good mind game. But he has some laggy attacks and his down air is not good at all. King Dedede has to be one of the best heavyweights in the game. Good pokes, a good spacing game with Gordos, Forward Tilt and he even has some combos. But he gets destroyed by combo characters like Captain Falcon, Sonic, Fox or Falco. Then can reflect the Gordo back to King Dedede and even kill him with that. And he can't survive the entire eternity when he's fighting a combo character. Samus has some favorable match-ups againts Top Tiers and good aerials. Up Air is really good for pursuits in the air, and now she has an improved Up Smash, which helps her nicely. Her projectiles are good but have nasty end lag. She needs more development to be more effective. Bowser back in Smash 3DS was said to be the best character in the game, everyone though that he had some good aerials and an amazing killing power. Part of this is still true. He still has a pretty good killing power and he has one of the best jabs in the game. But his problems are in the air: He can't land in any safe way. His aerials doesn't let him land on the stage properly and he gets killed off the stage pretty easily. Although he can be really good at the ground and at killing. He lacks a good way to protect himself. Donkey Kong also has this problem. But not as bad as Bowser. He also has some good attacks and a really good Back Air. Also his Cargo combos got so much better and now you have to be careful when you battle him. He's still pretty weak on the air though)

C: :4ganondorf: :4wiifit: :4zelda: :4mewtwo: :4palutena: :4robinm::4littlemac:(Ganondorf is pretty damn strong and can have a really good control of his personal space. You can't combo him pretty easily thanks to his jab and Forward Tilt, Side B is still good even when it's now teachable on the ground and Down B is good for Shield Punishes. He can also combo Down Throw into Down B. So it's good damage. He has a really really poor recovery though. So he really needs to keep himself on the field. Wii Fit Trainer is entertaining to use and she can be used nicely on a tournament. But the player needs so much time to learn how to use her properly. And even then, she still doesn't reguard you so much. Zelda does have some good aerials like Neutral Air, Forward Air and Back Air when they are sweetspotted. She has some decent ground attacks. But when compared to the rest of the cast... She is pretty bad. But even then she can still be a decent or good character. You just need to put effort into it. Mewtwo has a better chance of being a better character. Because his Neutral Air is even better and if he reads you only once. You can get into really big trouble. Mewtwo has some good moves like Forward Air, Back Air or Up Air. Side B has to be the best reflector in the game. Because it comes out so quick and it can damage the opponent so badly. Mewtwo is actually a read based character. He can be really good when you read your opponent almost perfecly. But his weigh problem is what keeps him from even being a Middle Tier. Palutena also has some good attacks and some decent ones (Up Tilt is a good anti air.) And she can also do some Down Throw combos. Not as good as other characters combos but she does have some. At high percents: Down Throw into Up Air and it kills. And I think it's a true combo. But her other moves just suck really badly. Side and Down Smash are just plain awful and need an speed and range increase. Up Smash is only good for Anti-Air and edgeguards. She does have one of the fastest meteor smashes in the game. And her Specials are also really awful. She only gets good with customs. Robin is a character that can be good but only if they butff his run speed and ground attacks. His aerials are good and he has good specials. But his speed is just so damn bad. And the last one: Little Mac. Advice: NEVER SLEEP ON A LITTLE MAC. Little Mac has to be one of the best ground characters in the game, incredible ground attacks frame data, huge kill power, armor Smash Attacks, Decent Specials and the KO Punch is a game changer. Down Tilt into KO Punch? That is pretty damn good. The problem with Little Mac is that he's the worst in the air. He just can't survive when he's off the stage. He needs his Side B from 3DS days back.

I hope you see my list as possitive. Because I spent a **** ton of time into it :p And if you want, discuss with my own list or whatever.

Also Seagull. I seriously apologize. I shouldn't have reacted like that.
 
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Vipermoon

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I wonder how hypothetical patches could put Lucina on the same level as Marth. Lower aerial and/or landing lag to make up for her shorter range?
Heck no. I will not stand for that. Lucina is the casual player's Marth, no need for her to out perform the veteran. If they wanted to make up for the shorter range (which there is barely a difference) they would increase her shorter range to Marth's level (except where character height is the reason for the difference).
 
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Appledees

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Megaman is not A- tier lmao

he also can't kill high/top tiers easily what is this lol
 

Luco

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I... Actually don't object to the notion that there are quite a few tiers. It's a very personal thing, but I see separation in viability where results start to become noticably less. Say, the difference between characters like :4mario: :4falcon: etc and characters like :4rob: :4pit: and more, or the gap between characters like :4zelda: :4palutena: (customs off this is just a good example, customs on Pally is beautiful) and :4wiifit: and :4drmario: who have dedicated mains and do make splashes occasionally or in some areas.

I guess a lot of it has to do in my eyes with how successful/numerous/consistent/etc their top and high level players are, which might be a good way to make a list (we haven't had one of those for a while). I tend to find my lists easier to split based off how much/how often I hear the success of those characters and their top players.

I'm also not entirely sure the game is totally as balanced as everyone makes it out to be. By far, definitely, the most balanced smash game there is. But when you compare that to Melee and Brawl especially, it doesn't actually mean THAT much. The top tiers are weaker than ever before, but top 8 you'll still see the same old perpetrators the vast majority of the time. We are getting ever closer to a game that needs less and less tiers, but I still see the results skewed in a way which suggests charactes like Dedede, customs off DK or hell even MK (who's probably high tier) just aren't going to have a very good shot at winning national-scale tournaments. Solidsense said it true that most of the top tiers are playing a very different game. I do believe that the presence of more explotable weaknesses than in previous games does mean something (Sheik's killing ability, ZSS' grab, Rosa without Luma, Luigi's mobility/traction, Ness' mobility/offstage weaknesses, etc.) but I still see a clear-ish hierarchy between the best, the great, the good, the average, the underwhelming, the bad and the unviable. If you do too, then maybe you should reconsider why you are uncomfortable with a tier list that has more than 4 tiers.

Also I much prefer A, B, C, D, E etc to A+, A, A-, B+ etc. Looks so much cleaner to me. Once people get over their perceptions that F tier = Brawl Ganon I think we'll be alright.

EDIT: Also, I have this theory that the 'better' posts in this thread tend to be formatted well too, or at least not just a wall but more often a series of shorter paragraphs that lead well into each other.

I need to learn how to do that. @.@
 
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Vipermoon

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Depending on much less endling and landing lag they would decide to give her that could just make her better than marth. Less landing lag and ending lag on aerials is something they both desperately need.
Only Fair has more end lag. Landing lag is super important but the thing they need the most are real autocancel windows. They were stripped of their godly Melee and Brawl ACs. Robin literally stole them, in fact.
 

Spinosaurus

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And Wario because he has some pretty good protection with his Bike and has some good attacks like Forward Air, Neutral Air, and his jab his good for spacing.
See, this is the problem with tier lists made by one person.

Knowledge outside the characters they're comfortable with is likely so limited. There's a reason they're frowned upon in this thread.
 

Vipermoon

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@ hypersonicJD hypersonicJD
Marth does not lose to Fox and Falcon. I don't know where you got that.

Also your tier list isn't as good as Seagull's (not that I agree with his) and obviously I have to give Seagull's opinion some respect, he wins tournaments. You overrate a lot of characters here. I don't feel like elaborating right now, sorry.
 

ARGHETH

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Heck no. I will not stand for that. Lucina is the casual player's Marth, no need for her to out perform the veteran.
Since when was this a thing?
He literally said, in the post you quoted, that he was asking about how to make Lucina on the same level as Marth.

I personally think that she could use a general damage buff, maybe just a few % higher to her weaker moves (tilts come into mind).
 

TheReflexWonder

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Rango got top 5 in a 100+tournament
He got Top 5 at an event with something like six actively good players there. It was a convention event where everyone but the top 8 were casual players entering for fun. Not really the best representation of Ike's potential there.

He did beat Scatt there, though, which is a good look.
 
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Vipermoon

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Since when was this a thing?
He literally said, in the post you quoted, that he was asking about how to make Lucina on the same level as Marth.

I personally think that she could use a general damage buff, maybe just a few % higher to her weaker moves (tilts come into mind).
And what I said implies that Marth is supposed to be slightly better because he takes more work. It wouldn't make sense to make tippers less rewarding by buffing the clone character that Sakurai stated was created for people who didn't want to deal with tipper spacing.

They both gravely need damage buffs (but not higher KB). And Lucina has been getting them every patch.

Her Dtilt already does exactly half the damage between Marth's tips and non tips. Her Ftilt does nearly 11. Marth is at 9 and 12. That is already more than generous. Utilt should do consistent damage that the back hit does so I agree with a buff to that.
 
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momochuu

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But he doesn't have the killing power he had in 3DS days.
things like this is why i think greninja players lurk this thread all the time.

they didn't even nerf greninja's killing power, and one of his smash attacks got buffed in knockback. the only move that got decreased knockback was fair (for some reason). his usmash still kills as stupidly early as it did pre-patch, except its balanced by its current ending lag.

greninja still has the potential to kill very early for such a fast character.
 
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FullMoon

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Grenina back in Smash 3DS days, was a top tier character. Good aerials, fast approach, a good projectile and damaging Smash Attacks. Then... The Greninja nerfs came. And he went from A or A+ tier to Middle Tier. He hasn't had a good time around this days. But even then he's still a really solid character. He still has his good approaches and good aerials. But he doesn't have the killing power he had in 3DS days.
Of all flaws to point out in Greninja, kill power?


Are you sure he needs a power boost?
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I think Falco is being slept on currently and I believe he may be a top 20 character.

Falco latest changes really help him out. Most notably the nair buff. I didn't realize how big of a change this was until I played a falco a couple of days ago. This move is a great OoS option. Something Falco used to lack which is a pretty big deal. Considering it can lead into follow ups you have to be extremely cautious attacking Falco's shield.

Then there's the other buff he's received like the changes to fair and uair. This character is has a lot of solid options across the board. He also has some extremely fast moves which can only be a benefit. I think falco flows together a lot better now than before. I'm not sure if his jab has gotten better. But I do believe falco is a good character now.

@ FullMoon FullMoon what are your thoughts on the greninja vs lil mac mu?
 
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Gunla

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Stop ninjaing me, you two.

Though to clarify, Greninja has kill power. Whether it's KOing with UThrow-UAir, FSmash, HP gimps, Bair gimps, UThrow by itself, Backstab SS, or Fair, he actually has good KO%s and a varied set of KO options, and more besides these. The main nerf I can consider would be USmash's damage and end lag nerfs, and that still kills at good %s.
 
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