Character Competitive Impressions

[JamietheAuraUser]

@epicgordan: I still think that Zelda probably counters Duck Hunt harder than Rosalina does just because she has a near-instantaneous teleport with a powerful hitbox on reentry. Many characters have problems approaching through Duck Hunt's web of projectiles. Even Little Mac has to be careful about timing and spacing with his Jolt Haymaker if he wants to get through. Zelda, though? She can use Farore's Wind to take stage control and apply pressure just about any time she chooses. Meta Knight might also be a decently frustrating opponent thanks to the Dimensional Cape, although again this requires far more careful timing and spacing than Farore's Wind, which Zelda can basically pull out to get from almost anywhere to on top of Duck Hunt in an instant. Palutena has Warp and Reflect, but Reflect is easily bypassed by Trick Shot and Warp lacks a hitbox, meaning Palutena has to be careful with her aim to not leave herself open on reentry.

As for Rosalina vs. Duck Hunt, Gravitational Pull is of course very powerful, but in regards to Luma's ability to tank projectiles for her, Duck Hunt has that covered as long as Luma and Rosalina are together. Trick Shot has a blast radius and Clay Pigeon has an area of effect if you shoot it down, allowing it to hit both Luma and Rosalina if spaced perfectly. And while sending Luma out to attack Duck Hunt by himself is certainly a great strategy, Duck Hunt's Smash Attacks are both quick and disjointed, probably capable of getting Luma out of his face very quickly.

Also, if Custom Specials are allowed, Greninja's Substitute Ambush is a very powerful option against Duck Hunt. It has longer counter frames than a standard Substitute, meaning it requires less precision which is very beneficial with the unique hitboxes on Duck Hunt's projectiles, hits for a whopping 15% damage or more with strong knockback, and like a standard Substitute the counter can be angled to attack from anywhere in a huge area. (Teleport forward into a diving kick, teleport forward into a lunging side kick from behind, teleport forward into a vertically-ascending kick, teleport back into a lunging side kick forward, teleport back into a diving kick, or teleport back into a vertically-ascending kick.) It also breaks shields in two hits and causes huge shieldstun (by Smash 4 standards anyway), so just because it's slower doesn't mean you can block it safely, and with how mobile Greninja is during the counter-attack you're unlikely to be able to punish even if you dodge. And in Smash 4, projectile attacks tend to have far more endlag than they did in previous Smash games, including Duck Hunt's Clay Pigeon. (Even if his other projectiles are far faster than much any others in the game in terms of endlag.) Greninja also has Shadow Sneak, which has a greater maximum range than all of Duck Hunt's projectiles excluding Trick Shot or an aerial Clay Pigeon. And of course Greninja can still walk or jump while charging, allowing him to continue to evade projectiles.

 

[Funtroon]

I've heard people talk about the potential characters that might end up in the top tier part of a tier list. What about low tiers? Are there characters that are completely not viable?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Lucario, Fox, Yoshi, Wario and Sonic are characters that might be slept on as of right now. They all have seen important buffs, little to no nerfs, they all have their respective outstanding traits and I fail to see any major weaknesses in their character design. All of them have a rather good shot at ending up high or very high on the tier list imo.

If there's one character I can see very little hope for it'd have to be Luigi. Does he have anything to make up for his devastating lack of mobility and range?

I don't really see what Yoshi has going for him that's so good. Yes his game is more standardized with his shield finally working properly, but that alone doesn't define what the character can do. What options does he have in midrange and for converting into KO setups? I can't see Yoshi being that strong especially if for any reason he has to catch up from behind, unless his midrange game changed drastically. I just don't see him as having the same traps and setups that other characters have outside of the generic buffs to land/edgetrapping, though his KO moves are not especially remarkable from what I recall.

I mean, look at ZSS in contrast. When ZSS fires paralyzer, she's effectively put in control even if you block it, and on hit it can potentially lead to guaranteed conversion into F-smash or DA depending on timing/positioning. So even though she has a slow startup tether grab, the positional advantage she's in when zoning at midrange is really strong. She's also one of the strongest characters in the game at chasing people in the air and has viable options to juggle you to a KO. Yoshi in midrange, Egg Toss requires precise aiming on grounded opponents and has larger commitment overall, so he can't get the same level of control at midrange, even factoring that he has a command grab. And I forget if U-air is still a good KO move on Yoshi, but his jump mechanics are by far not as preferable for chasing people in the air. So how does Yoshi define himself in midrange besides standard footsies? I mean, if we're only talking footsies, there's already competition for that from Marth/Lucina, Metaknight, and Falco.

I would assume Luigi is in theory really good with powershielding, which combined with his strong overall survivability gives him wildcard potential when his punish game is still really strong. He can still also to an extent try to get around zoning with Cyclone, but other than that, yeah. He's never been one for footsies.

I believe R.O.B. as he is with his standard specials is also pretty bad in this game. His neutral game is ok though nerfed, but the mechanics changes just hurt him more than anyone else. R.O.B. probably has one of the 5 worst recoveries in the game when you realize he has no benefits from anti-edgehog mechanics, while other characters risk much less intercepting his recovery. And R.O.B. is still bad at getting up from the ledge and landing on stage as well. Combined with the fact he still doesn't have a lot of reliable finishers given he doesn't have many options to edgeguard low recoveries, I don't think he's that good.

And of course to state the obvious, Ganondorf is likely the worst character in the game overall just simply because he technically can't beat anyone in neutral (though he's slightly less terrible at it with buffs to Jab and F-tilt from what I've seen). Though the fact he can't be edgehogged like before alone is a huge buff to his playstyle and makes him more viable.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I don't really see what Yoshi has going for him that's so good. Yes his game is more standardized with his shield finally working properly, but that alone doesn't define what the character can do. What options does he have in midrange and for converting into KO setups? I can't see Yoshi being that strong especially if for any reason he has to catch up from behind, unless his midrange game changed drastically. I just don't see him as having the same traps and setups that other characters have outside of the generic buffs to land/edgetrapping, though his KO moves are not especially remarkable from what I recall.

I would assume Luigi is in theory really good with powershielding, which combined with his strong overall survivability gives him wildcard potential when his punish game is still really strong. He can still also to an extent try to get around zoning with Cyclone, but other than that, yeah. He's never been one for footsies.

I believe R.O.B. as he is with his standard specials is also pretty bad in this game. His neutral game is ok though nerfed, but the mechanics changes just hurt him more than anyone else. R.O.B. probably has one of the 5 worst recoveries in the game when you realize he has no benefits from anti-edgehog mechanics, while other characters risk much less intercepting his recovery. And R.O.B. is still bad at getting up from the ledge and landing on stage as well. Combined with the fact he still doesn't have a lot of reliable finishers given he doesn't have many options to edgeguard low recoveries, I don't think he's that good.

And of course to state the obvious, Ganondorf is likely the worst character in the game overall just simply because he technically can't beat anyone in neutral (though he's slightly less terrible at it with buffs to Jab and F-tilt from what I've seen). Though the fact he can't be edgehogged like before alone is a huge buff to his playstyle and makes him more viable.

Yoshi: He can jab into USmash as a KO setup. That's pretty darn good, I'd say, especially since it's a true combo if performed correctly.

UAir is freaking powerful. NAir is lagless maybe? I've not seen a lot of Yoshi being played, so I don't know all his tech. DAir is still rather laggy on landing but it's highly-damaging, SDI nerf makes it near-impossible to escape, and despite the landing lag it combos into some of his ground moves, some of which can in turn string (or possibly even combo at certain %) very nicely back into DAir. BAir is good for poking and the last hit has kill power.

UTilt is now a single roundhouse kick to head-height. Its range really isn't the most amazing thing ever (although Yoshi does have pretty big feet, and they somehow get bigger when he kicks), but it is faster than his previous UTilt.

Up Special in the air gets more height. Eggs can aim better I think?

Midair jump still has armour of course, so his aerial game is pretty darn good.

Ganondorf: Based on what I've seen, Ganondorf has a somewhat Brawl Lucario-ish thing going for him in that a lot of his moves have a darkness effect to them that gives them disjoint beyond the range his limbs should give him. Moves with this effect include, to the best of my recollection, DTilt, FSmash, USmash, UAir (which is also lagless and does a whopping 15%), FAir (dat disjointed meteor smash though), and I think BAir. Oh, also, DAir auto-cancels IIRC. A lot of his tilts and his jab are also faster than they were in Brawl, both in startup and in endlag.

As for less neutral-related tech, UTilt, while still objectively terrible, has shorter startup than in Brawl as well as a stronger windbox, also dealing damage on par with many Final Smashes and KOing earlier than most of them. Warlock Punch can work as a punishment option as it is now super-armoured for the entire move, and I think it's a little faster as well. Its damage is less than in Brawl, though.

And then you get to Ganondorf's custom moves, which include some truly amazing things like a side special that covers him in hitboxes instead of grabbing, along with an Up Special that does the same thing. He gets a Down Special that makes an aerial Wizard's Foot go at a really shallow angle, while the grounded version pops him into the air slightly before doing the version he normally does in the air. That shallow aerial Wizard's Foot looks like it's really freaking good, actually. It seems weaker in terms of raw damage and knockback, but it's pretty fast and again, has a really neat angle to it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi: He can jab into USmash as a KO setup. That's pretty darn good, I'd say, especially since it's a true combo if performed correctly.

UAir is freaking powerful. NAir is lagless maybe? I've not seen a lot of Yoshi being played, so I don't know all his tech. DAir is still rather laggy on landing but it's highly-damaging, SDI nerf makes it near-impossible to escape, and despite the landing lag it combos into some of his ground moves, some of which can in turn string (or possibly even combo at certain %) very nicely back into DAir. BAir is good for poking and the last hit has kill power.

UTilt is now a single roundhouse kick to head-height. Its range really isn't the most amazing thing ever (although Yoshi does have pretty big feet, and they somehow get bigger when he kicks), but it is faster than his previous UTilt.

Up Special in the air gets more height. Eggs can aim better I think?

Midair jump still has armour of course, so his aerial game is pretty darn good.

Ganondorf: Based on what I've seen, Ganondorf has a somewhat Brawl Lucario-ish thing going for him in that a lot of his moves have a darkness effect to them that gives them disjoint beyond the range his limbs should give him. Moves with this effect include, to the best of my recollection, DTilt, FSmash, USmash, UAir (which is also lagless and does a whopping 15%), FAir (dat disjointed meteor smash though), and I think BAir. Oh, also, DAir auto-cancels IIRC. A lot of his tilts and his jab are also faster than they were in Brawl, both in startup and in endlag.

As for less neutral-related tech, UTilt, while still objectively terrible, has shorter startup than in Brawl as well as a stronger windbox, also dealing damage on par with many Final Smashes and KOing earlier than most of them. Warlock Punch can work as a punishment option as it is now super-armoured for the entire move, and I think it's a little faster as well. Its damage is less than in Brawl, though.

And then you get to Ganondorf's custom moves, which include some truly amazing things like a side special that covers him in hitboxes instead of grabbing, along with an Up Special that does the same thing. He gets a Down Special that makes an aerial Wizard's Foot go at a really shallow angle, while the grounded version pops him into the air slightly before doing the version he normally does in the air. That shallow aerial Wizard's Foot looks like it's really freaking good, actually. It seems weaker in terms of raw damage and knockback, but it's pretty fast and again, has a really neat angle to it.

What percents most importantly? It's cool if you can Jab U-smash at 30-50%, but can you do it at 110-130%?

Also Yoshi's midair jump having armor doesn't help you so much onstage as opposed to recovery. There's not a lot of situations where you're going to chase anyone onestage with it when it's really telegraphed, which does limit some of your followups in the air.

And yes, Ganondorf does benefit considerably from the divekick custom. It remains to be seen though if it makes him more viable in a custom move environment.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

What percents most importantly? It's cool if you can Jab U-smash at 30-50%, but can you do it at 110-130%?

Also Yoshi's midair jump having armor doesn't help you so much onstage as opposed to recovery. There's not a lot of situations where you're going to chase anyone onestage with it when it's really telegraphed, which does limit some of your followups in the air.

And yes, Ganondorf does benefit considerably from the divekick custom. It remains to be seen though if it makes him more viable in a custom move environment.

http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/c/5109980

You can do it at kill%, I know that much. It's not actually a "combo", but if you're close enough then DI'ing outward won't save the opponent, and USmash's hitbox is so freaking big that for most characters, attempting a midair jump won't save them either because they just don't gain height fast enough. It might save Falco, though, because both of his jumps are freaking huge. Also, any character with a counter can probably block this, depending on how quickly their counter activates. And there's Ganon's Warlock Punch, Ike's Eruption and Aether, DK's fully-charged Giant Punch, and whatever other aerial super armoured attacks there are that I'm missing that are armoured early enough into the move. Many characters an probably escape with an Up Special, but if you read that and dodge then you get a free shot at them anyway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel like if you're vectoring away and floaty it becomes considerably harder for Yoshi to land that, but that does look pretty good. Falco probably actually gets comboed easily at high percents by this due to his fall speed.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I feel like if you're vectoring away and floaty it becomes considerably harder for Yoshi to land that, but that does look pretty good. Falco probably actually gets comboed easily at high percents by this due to his fall speed.

That same high fall speed also means that for Falco to have such a high jump (he can literally stand at the centre of Wiley's Castle Omega and reach the top of the screen by just double-jumping), he has to have very high jump acceleration. That's why I thought it might be easier for him to escape than other characters, on the basis that a midair jump might actually carry him enough distance to get him out of range. Granted, at high percents it might actually be a true combo on Falco, or simply put him in enough hitstun that combined with his fall speed he can't get out despite his crazy-high jumps, which would make that possibility a non-issue,.

 

[Shog]

Just want to say this: Custom Moves must be allowed. I just checked some videos about the cm of the characters: They are not broken, they are awesome. They seem to follow the Standard Power and Speed Route most of the time. It really can help some characters and allows for unique battles.
Also consider that there unlike equipment NOT luckbased or anything. Each character has a set of 3 C moves per B direction. That isn't that much.

 

[Makaronileo]

They are not broken, they are awesome.

They Are awesome indeed

 

[Thinkaman]

While we don't ban or not-ban things because of how cool they are, custom moves are looking more legit every day. It's an exciting time to be a smash player.

Edit to bring us back on topic:

Based on footage, I've been a negative nancy towards Ike and Samus in particular--two of the only characters I have not been impressed with. But as it turns out, I think Ike and Samus have the best custom moves sets. They are the only characters that have imo unambiguously improved specials across the board.

 

[Funkermonster]

Anyone got any opinions on Sonic and Yoshi? Hardly anyone seems to talk much about them.

 

[MushroomKiller]

UTilt is now a single roundhouse kick to head-height. Its range really isn't the most amazing thing ever (although Yoshi does have pretty big feet, and they somehow get bigger when he kicks), but it is faster than his previous UTilt.

Pretty sure that UTilt is still the tail swipe, although it is significantly more useful because his tail actually grows longer.

Anyone got any opinions on Sonic and Yoshi? Hardly anyone seems to talk much about them.

Not many are talking about Sonic, but the few that have are saying that he's pretty good this time round. Don't know much about him, myself. Sorry

Yoshi gets his fair share of attention. A lot of people think he can make it into high tier, easily. I myself see him as a pretty solid character - all five of his aerials are great: UAir that kills pretty quickly, highly damaging, almost inescapable DAir that can lead into a quick follow-up, near-lagless FAir that can kill off the side AND meteor smash, BAir that's great for poking and edgeguarding. Don't know about NAir, but it doesn't seem useless either.

His ground game isn't shabby either, what with that dash attack that sends him flying across half the stage and that super sexy USmash. IMO, most buffed character from Brawl right after Bowser and Puff.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Pretty sure that UTilt is still the tail swipe, although it is significantly more useful because his tail actually grows longer.

Huh. Guess I was wrong then. Had it in my head he had a roundhouse kick for some reason. Dunno why though.

 

[JonJon]

Anyone got any opinions on Sonic and Yoshi? Hardly anyone seems to talk much about them.

Haven't seen much of them either. I here sonic is pretty good. I haven't heard one thing about yoshi. You should probably check their character page.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

From my impressions of things I've seen on stream, Sonic is very good. They seemed to have addressed his flaws pretty well.

Spin dash has some nice utility and he doesn't hit like a wet noodle anymore. He'll be frustrating to go against because he can credibly break through zoning-based play. I'm sure DHD mains will have a tough time.

 

[Captain Norris]

Has there been much talk on Mario? Fireball to f-air off stage is pretty good, although it requires good timing and prediction to hit the opponent with the fireball. Otherwise, with the fireball stun, you will fair them into a ko.
Pretty nifty if you ask me :D

 

[Funkermonster]

From my impressions of things I've seen on stream, Sonic is very good. They seemed to have addressed his flaws pretty well.

Spin dash has some nice utility and he doesn't hit like a wet noodle anymore. He'll be frustrating to go against because he can credibly break through zoning-based play. I'm sure DHD mains will have a tough time.

Sonic vs Duck Hunt Dog.... That kinda reminds me of somethin...

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ODuGWZj-A[/spoiler]

Sorry I just had to do it.

 

[JonJon]

Has there been much talk on Mario? Fireball to f-air off stage is pretty good, although it requires good timing and prediction to hit the opponent with the fireball. Otherwise, with the fireball stun, you will fair them into a ko.
Pretty nifty if you ask me :D

I mained Mario in brawl and used the fireball as a means of approach. Fireball then sliding kicking into their face while they were stunned. I'll have to try what you are talking about.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Sonic vs Duck Hunt Dog.... That kinda reminds me of somethin...

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ODuGWZj-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ODuGWZj-A[/spoiler]

Sorry I just had to do it.[/spoiler]

Sooo, this video make the Sonic vs. DHD matchup 90:10 in DHD's favor.

If Tails was in the game however...

Anyways, I think Sonic has some real potential in this. Characters with high mobility have a greater ability to break through zones. Sonic, Sheik, etc are characters to keep an eye out imo.

Once we find ways to get around DHD's zoning game, I think they hype around him will die out a bit. Up close, he's not all too great I hear.

 

[Captain Norris]

I mained Mario in brawl and used the fireball as a means of approach. Fireball then sliding kicking into their face while they were stunned. I'll have to try what you are talking about.

fireballs are more of a use in the air now rather then on the ground this game from what I have played out.

 

[Funkermonster]

Sooo, this video make the Sonic vs. DHD matchup 90:10 in DHD's favor.

If Tails was in the game however...

Anyways, I think Sonic has some real potential in this. Characters with high mobility have a greater ability to break through zones. Sonic, Sheik, etc are characters to keep an eye out imo.

Once we find ways to get around DHD's zoning game, I think they hype around him will die out a bit. Up close, he's not all too great I hear.

Not too great up close? Well I dunno... I was told Dawg's got Smash attacks with Disjointed Hitboxes (which Sonic doesn't seem to have, correct if I'm wrong). Zoning AND Disjointed Smashes? That sounds pretty darn scary to me. I wonder how good his grab and throws are though, and his aerials....

But thanks for the insight on Sonic. Now I just need to somebody with a little thoughts on how Yoshi feels. That new Up Smash of his looks awesome.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Not too great up close? Well I dunno... I was told Dawg's got Smash attacks with Disjointed Hitboxes (which Sonic doesn't seem to have, correct if I'm wrong). Zoning AND Disjointed Smashes? That sounds pretty darn scary to me. I wonder how good his grab and throws are though, and his aerials....

But thanks for the insight on Sonic. Now I just need to somebody with a little thoughts on how Yoshi feels. That new Up Smash of his looks awesome.

I didn't hear about the disjointed hitboxes but if that's the case, it's gonna be nuts. I hear his grabs aren't too great.

I haven't seen much yoshi play. I hear he's buffed. I certainly hope he's viable.

Can we take a minute to talk about Greninja's mobility thoooo

 

[Werner Herzog]

If I can make a small request here for anybody feeling charitable, I'm curious about a few characters - Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, and Diddy. I'm interested in all three (Kirby especially is a personal favorite whose 64 glory days I miss dearly) but they're all really, really difficult to find any impressions or videos of. None of them seem to ever get picked in tournaments either. Are they just getting slept on, or do they genuinely not seem very promising so far?

 

[Yonder]

I think the character I've heard the absolute least about so far has been Bowser Jr.

 

[iruchii]

If I can make a small request here for anybody feeling charitable, I'm curious about a few characters - Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, and Diddy. I'm interested in all three (Kirby especially is a personal favorite whose 64 glory days I miss dearly) but they're all really, really difficult to find any impressions or videos of. None of them seem to ever get picked in tournaments either. Are they just getting slept on, or do they genuinely not seem very promising so far?

I haven't played much with those three, but I can give you some impressions off about 10 matches as playing either with or against them.

Kirby looks fine, but still a bit underwhelming. His aerial game is pretty good, and the new Side B could have its uses (it's a strong air finisher, something he lacked). Down B is still bad, but Neutral B is a lot faster. To be honest, he feels like a worse Jigglypuff. This is not to say he is bad, since Puff is looking pretty good, just that he is outclassed.

WFT is really weird to play as. Her aerials have such weird hitboxes, and it always feels like you have no range. The neutral B projectile is good though, and so are your jab and smashes. I guess it's a matter of getting used to the ranges and hitboxes of her tilts and aerials, but idk, I wasn't very thrilled by her.

Diddy is just... well, I never liked playing as Diddy in either Brawl or P:M, and this feels like a Brawl Diddy except worse in every possible way. The banana game is almost nonexistent since you can only have one banana out at a time and it disappears so quickly. His UpB recovery is a lot weirder to control and it felt really clunky. I can't really comment on his normals since I never played enough Diddy to make a fair comparison, but I was unimpressed by everything he did.

Keep in mind those are really brief impressions out of a few games, and with characters I really didn't explore much, but I hope it's somewhat helpful.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I love this game and I haven't even played it. The fact that you read through this thread and see such disparity in opinions for the character just shows how excellently balanced it's turning out to be. The only comment I've heard about low tiers would be Falco and Megaman, but both still appear to have strengths that compliment matchups well. Even the supposed god-tier threats in Bowser and Shiek have counters which can be exploited.

I literally cannot wait to get my hands on this game. October 3rd can't come sooner.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

I didn't hear about the disjointed hitboxes but if that's the case, it's gonna be nuts. I hear his grabs aren't too great.

I haven't seen much yoshi play. I hear he's buffed. I certainly hope he's viable.

Can we take a minute to talk about Greninja's mobility thoooo

Duck Hunt's throws don't have a lot of knockback but he seems to be able to act out of his throws pretty quickly. Or at least, this is true of his FThrow. He can't combo out of it, but it seems pretty useful for pressure. Smashes are very fast and have disjointed hitboxes, but sometimes push the foe out of their multiple hits if they aren't landed right. But yes, his smashes have disjointed hitboxes over a wide area, solid KO power, and have both quick startup and short endlag, so you're not gonna punish them with a roll-and-counter. And they're all multi-hit, probably even making them impossible to sidestep dodge. And he has a rather fast run speed, allowing him to play runaway with slower characters like Bowser. His tilts are pretty short-range, though.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

http://smashboards.com/threads/marios-up-b-is-a-reliable-combo-finisher.369792/

From what I have played so far, this is how most of Mario's combos are going to turn out in the long run.

The video footage that people have been posting thus far about Mario's combos look great on paper and seem like they would all string together, but in actual practice this is sadly not the case most of the time.You can airdodge and act out of hitstun pretty early in Smash 4. It's not nearly as bad as how Brawl was, but it does prevent things like Mario's Uair chains being true combos as opposed to having to read what your opponent tries to do before throwing out that next Uair. Mario still feels pretty solid to me, but my initial impressions of him have changed. He has combos, just not as many true combos in contrast to what video footage may lead one to believe.

I am going to withhold my thoughts on the other characters until I have the actual game, and have had more time messing around with the other characters. I just wanted to post this as food-for-thought in regards to Mario, since he is the only character I have spent an extensive amount of time playing/testing thus far. He feels like how Mario should be. Decent recovery, decent killing power, decent speed, good combos, and a somewhat noticeable yet slight weakness in regards to attack range. He wouldn't be top tier, or bottom tier; just mid tier, as he usually always is.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

http://smashboards.com/threads/marios-up-b-is-a-reliable-combo-finisher.369792/

From what I have played so far, this is how most of Mario's combos are going to turn out in the long run.

The video footage that people have been posting thus far about Mario's combos look great on paper and seem like they would all string together, but in actual practice this is sadly not the case most of the time.You can airdodge and act out of hitstun pretty early in Smash 4. It's not nearly as bad as how Brawl was, but it does prevent things like Mario's Uair chains being true combos as opposed to having to read what your opponent tries to do before throwing out that next Uair. Mario still feels pretty solid to me, but my initial impressions of him have changed. He has combos, just not as many true combos in contrast to what video footage may lead one to believe.

I am going to withhold my thoughts on the other characters until I have the actual game, and have had more time messing around with the other characters. I just wanted to post this as food-for-thought in regards to Mario, since he is the only character I have spent an extensive amount of time playing/testing thus far. He feels like how Mario should be. Decent recovery, decent killing power, decent speed, good combos, and a somewhat noticeable yet slight weakness in regards to attack range. He wouldn't be top tier, or bottom tier; just mid tier, as he usually always is.

Mario's attack range is actually pretty darn decent if you use the right moves. Up Special has a very slight disjoint. Down Tilt has greater range than his Forward Tilt, and seems to outrange Link's Forward Tilt. Well, actually, that's not quite true; what actually happens is that if Link whiffs an FTilt by mis-spacing it, Mario's DTilt can strike the hurtbox on Link's sword hand right after Link's hitbox ends. A lot of punishes in Smash 4 can work like that: trick the foe into screwing up their defensive or offensive spacing, and strike their extended hurtbox.

 

[Funkermonster]

I love this game and I haven't even played it. The fact that you read through this thread and see such disparity in opinions for the character just shows how excellently balanced it's turning out to be. The only comment I've heard about low tiers would be Falco and Megaman, but both still appear to have strengths that compliment matchups well. Even the supposed god-tier threats in Bowser and Shiek have counters which can be exploited.

I literally cannot wait to get my hands on this game. October 3rd can't come sooner.

Do keep in mind though, game's only been out for a few weeks and metagames take a looooong time form. While I can agree that it may look balanced now, things could surprise ya in the future.

All I'm sayin is though: Don't get your hopes too high up.

 

[Signia]

Diddy is just... well, I never liked playing as Diddy in either Brawl or P:M, and this feels like a Brawl Diddy except worse in every possible way. The banana game is almost nonexistent since you can only have one banana out at a time and it disappears so quickly. His UpB recovery is a lot weirder to control and it felt really clunky. I can't really comment on his normals since I never played enough Diddy to make a fair comparison, but I was unimpressed by everything he did.

You should watch more of Leffen's stream. He's not kidding when he says Diddy is one of the better characters, and that's not even factoring in that peanut-hitstun-cancelling and the air dodge and side-b cancelling the peanut. He's very fast on the ground and the air with a very useful command grab / air dash aerial in side-b that looks amazingly fun. His aerials and fall speed allow for a very strong (true) combo game while still having a decent zoning game. His grabs start his combos and are hard to VI due to the speed of the throw animation.

It's my understanding that in Brawl he played primarily like a zoning character, and in this game he can only have one banana out, so it seems like he's a worse character, but without those preconceptions he looks solid, especially the way Leffen plays him. He seems like one of the few effective offensive characters in the game.

 

[iruchii]

You should watch more of Leffen's stream. He's not kidding when he says Diddy is one of the better characters, and that's not even factoring in that peanut-hitstun-cancelling and the air dodge and side-b cancelling the peanut. He's very fast on the ground and the air with a very useful command grab / air dash aerial in side-b that looks amazingly fun. His aerials and fall speed allow for a very strong (true) combo game while still having a decent zoning game. His grabs start his combos and are hard to VI due to the speed of the throw animation.

It's my understanding that in Brawl he played primarily like a zoning character, and in this game he can only have one banana out, so it seems like he's a worse character, but without those preconceptions he looks solid, especially the way Leffen plays him. He seems like one of the few effective offensive characters in the game.

I don't doubt any of that. As I said before, I just dislike the character himself and therefore haven't taken a deeper look at him -- meaning my impressions are just a result from what I could take from his Brawl self. It's good to know Diddy plays different from Brawl though, which is how I tried playing him the couple times I did (and disliked).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He seems like one of the few effective offensive characters in the game.

Greninja, Sheik, Fox, Sonic, ZSS and Little Mac all look like fast-paced, offensive, pressure-based characters that have potential to become high tier or even better. It actually looks like this type of character seems to be the rule rather than the exception if we take Diddy Kong and other potentially good characters such as MK and Falcon into the equation. The only strongly [projectile] camping-based characters that have done well in a competitive environment so far are Duck Hunt and Pac-Man. The only strongly zoning-based character that has done well in a competitive environment so far is Rosalina.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Is it fair to assume we may discuss the strategies to be used for the Gamestop Nationals or no?

 

[Funkermonster]

Haven't seen much of Charizard play either besides 4 player free for alls. Judging by the footage I've seen, he doesn't look as good as he is in Project M, but he seems at least maybe mid-tier right now? He seems to hit like a wrecking ball with Flare Blitz and his other moves, but his recovery looks like it kinda sucks..

Is it fair to assume we may discuss the strategies to be used for the Gamestop Nationals or no?

Considering how the Gamestop tournament is using party rules with items on, 4 player matches, first come first served rule (Don't expect most of the players to be very good), and only 1 day after the game's release; I don't think so. Its a tournament alright, but a casual play tournament with chaotic parties. Items alone are gonna bring luck into the game and a few of them are very, very OP like the Smash Balls and Galaga Ship.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Haven't seen much of Charizard play either besides 4 player free for alls. Judging by the footage I've seen, he doesn't look as good as he is in Project M, but he seems at least maybe mid-tier right now? He seems to hit like a wrecking ball with Flare Blitz and his other moves, but his recovery looks like it kinda sucks..



Considering how the Gamestop tournament is using party rules with items on, 4 player matches, first come first served rule (Don't expect most of the players to be very good), and only 1 day after the game's release; I don't think so. Its a tournament alright, but a casual play tournament with chaotic parties. Items alone are gonna bring luck into the game and a few of them are very, very OP like the Smash Balls and Galaga Ship.

Okay I guess that makes sense. In regards to Charizard, I think I've only used him once. But from what I've played, I like his Project M version better.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Considering how the Gamestop tournament is using party rules with items on, 4 player matches, first come first served rule (Don't expect most of the players to be very good), and only 1 day after the game's release; I don't think so. Its a tournament alright, but a casual play tournament with chaotic parties. Items alone are gonna bring luck into the game and a few of them are very, very OP like the Smash Balls and Galaga Ship.

You're thinking of the regionals.

The nationals is the week after with full roster low/no items, 1v1s, custom moves, and the winners of the 16 regionals only.

 

[Funkermonster]

You're thinking of the regionals.

The nationals is the week after with full roster low/no items, 1v1s, custom moves, and the winners of the 16 regionals only.

Yeah but he said GAMESTOP nationals, and the National Tournament isn't held at a gamestop store. Its at the Nintendo World store, so he made it sound like he was talking about the regionals. And the National Tournament still is flawed even with that:

- Your point on the items is only half true. Items are are only turned off on rounds 4 and the finals, smash balls are still on for the rest. Smash Balls count as items and still disrupt gameplay.
- Players can't change to another character or customization during the tournament, no counterpick options.
- 1 winner for each match and best out of 1 games, no rematches.
- Sudden Death Matches are allowed, should stocks be tied (wtf?)
- Stage choices are on Random besides the finals.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Yeah but he said GAMESTOP nationals, and the National Tournament isn't held at a gamestop store. Its at the Nintendo World store, so he made it sound like he was talking about the regionals. And the National Tournament still is flawed even with that:

- Your point on the items is only half true. Items are are only turned off on rounds 4 and the finals, smash balls are still on for the rest. Smash Balls count as items and still disrupt gameplay.
- Players can't change to another character or customization during the tournament, no counterpick options.
- 1 winner for each match and best out of 1 games, no rematches.
- Sudden Death Matches are allowed, should stocks be tied (wtf?)
- Stage choices are on Random besides the finals.

Yeah ik that feel. I wish they would put more thought into their ruleset than they do.