Character Competitive Impressions

[deepseadiva]

If we ban diddy then sheik will rise up. She will gain more and more tech. Then people will get upset with her and ban her. Afterwards we will start banning down the line with each new top 5 because something seems broken.

This is called the slippery slope fallacy and is not a real concern.

 

[warriorman222]

This is called the slippery slope fallacy and is not a real concern.

Well the point is: Diddy shouldn't be banned. He is nowhere near the level of MK, who lasted about 5 years and was banned for only 6 months.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'll put it this way: Zero just won Aftershock with a Diddy. Aftershock had about 110 entrants and the best talent from TX and AZ.

I just wanna say absolutely none of the other cities bothered going because the rules, and because it's >Dallas
The one person that did go to the tournament though from Houston got ****ed over from bad TO'ing.

 

[deepseadiva]

My favorite post this week was from Amazing Ampharos where he talked about the difficulty of "saving Brawl":

I was also thinking about what we could have done differently to "save Brawl" and I realized as I thought about it that it would have been... very hard. We could have done stuff differently so things went better, but in light of the existence of smash 4, I'm not sure there's any realistic outcome that would have Brawl still played today. We could have had things go better in some ways and had an effect on the relative strength of the "competing" smash games (Melee and PM), but I am unconvinced there's any world in which we all could have been smarter and more agreeable and taken actions that would result in Brawl as a major tournament game in the year 2015. I'm not sure there's a great point behind this thought other than that perhaps we're not as in control of how things turn out as we usually like to imagine. Again, I'm just so thankful smash 4 is as good of a game as it is; that probably helps us a lot more than anything we say or do here could ever hope to matter.

What's interesting is how we understand Smash now is almost an eternal series. Smash Bros is likely going to exist as long as Nintendo exists, and a crowd is always going to be hungry for the newest installment. No matter how we configure a ruleset to make the current installment palpable, it looks like we'll be ready to drop it when the new Smash comes out.

But it seems there are three kinds of distinct Smash flavors though. Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl iterations. Smash 4 is Brawl 2. Smash 5 will likely be Brawl 3. Which is why I believe 64 and Melee will always have their respective scenes, while "Brawl" players will forever be jumping from upcoming version to upcoming version.

And this isn't even thinking about patches. I am dying to see if the Mewtwo patch brings any gameplay changes. We're very close to a "perfect" version of Brawl; one without planking, severe camping, and busted characters. If hoo-ha actually gets patched out, I can easily pronounce Smash 4 the best balanced Smash. *prays to Mewtwo*

 

[GeneralLedge]

Well hey, if Mewtwo gets disable or confusion it would in fact be a monkey-flip or banana peel counter, so that'd be useful. Unless it comes out too late, anyway.

Diddy Kong mains might actually consider using Backflip.

 

[warionumbah2]

A tall and light character will be jail bait for Diddy. The dream is dead.

 

[Mr. Johan]

They made Yoshi into a midweight inbetween Brawl and 4, no reason they can't do the opposite to Mewtwo.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

They made Yoshi into a midweight inbetween Brawl and 4, no reason they can't do the opposite to Mewtwo.

Yoshi has been heavy in every game, he's just lightest in Smash 4.

 

[Smog Frog]

yeah yoshi's packin some fat, similar to falcons weight this time i think?

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Yeah Yoshi now weighs the same as Link and Falcon. He lost weight in transition from Brawl to Smash 4 (and has been losing weight since Smash 64). Meanwhile, Marth gained weight in Smash 4. Probably explains why he can't do the short hop double f-air stuff.

So Mewtwo could be heavier, but it won't be a drastic weight increase.

 

[warriorman222]

My favorite post this week was from Amazing Ampharos where he talked about the difficulty of "saving Brawl":



What's interesting is how we understand Smash now is almost an eternal series. Smash Bros is likely going to exist as long as Nintendo exists, and a crowd is always going to be hungry for the newest installment. No matter how we configure a ruleset to make the current installment palpable, it looks like we'll be ready to drop it when the new Smash comes out.

But it seems there are three kinds of distinct Smash flavors though. Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl iterations. Smash 4 is Brawl 2. Smash 5 will likely be Brawl 3. Which is why I believe 64 and Melee will always have their respective scenes, while "Brawl" players will forever be jumping from upcoming version to upcoming version.

And this isn't even thinking about patches. I am dying to see if the Mewtwo patch brings any gameplay changes. We're very close to a "perfect" version of Brawl; one without planking, severe camping, and busted characters. If hoo-ha actually gets patched out, I can easily pronounce Smash 4 the best balanced Smash. *prays to Mewtwo*

The literal only other thing it needs is a hazard switch, and the game will be perfect.

 

[GeneralLedge]

The literal only other thing it needs is a hazard switch, and the game will be perfect.

Due to popular demand on Miiverse, we've added hazards to all stages.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Due to popular demand on Miiverse, we've added hazards to all stages.

"On Battlefield, when the sun is out, characters take 3% damage each second. At night, Kricketunes show up and attack the fighters.

On FD, the white flash will KO anyone not on a ledge.

On Delfino, Petey Piranha will appear at random to attack the fighters. Beat him to unlock him... just kidding!

On Halberd, we've added Heavy Lobster. Like the aforementioned Kricketunes and Petey, it will attack fighters.

On the new Miiverse Stage, hazards appear in the form of character requests. Each deals a different amount of damage depending on the character being requested: All cut Brawl fighters do 10%, Ridleys do 28.16%, every requested Nintendo character does 3%, and every character requested not from Nintendo is a 1-hit KO."

Oh man.

 

[Smog Frog]

On Smashville, the balloons become an exploding attack for the player who popped them.
On Town and City, the top blast zone will sporadically lower all the way down the the floor, KOing anyone unlucky enough to get hit during this time.
On Duck Hunt, the ducks will retaliate when attacked. Be careful!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is gameplay.

He can't grab with a banana in hand, if he throws it I now know he can. It's like playing against Peach or anyone else with an item. You consider and think what they are capable of.

Yes he has other moves and this is apart of gameplay I'm telling you though Brawl MK nado was far stronger than anything that Diddy can use.

Heck shields weren't always an option with MK, sometimes that even failed because that things eats shields for breakfast.

Diddy is good, we get it. But he's not to the levels MK had.

Why? Because there is far more counterplay to a grab or other stuff diddy can do that what Brawl MK could do.

I'm a bit late in addressing this post but anyways here goes.

Diddy with a nana in his hand can still grab you because of diddy flip. Since diddy has a command grab hiding in shield isn't always a viable option.

I get what you're saying but I simply don't agree with you MK was a beast there's no denying that but that doesn't take away from Diddy's nonsense.

I'm not sure if there's any real true counters to diddy. But characters who I feel have the potential.

Custom Rob
Custom Villager
Custom Shiek
Diddy

Other than that I don't really see anyone beating Diddy. Another problem with Diddy is he has some of the fastest moves in the game. 3 frame jab 4 frame dtilt 6 frame fair 5 frame bair 3 frame uair 6 frame grab 8 frame dash grab. These moves are some of if not the fastest moves for any character and their all pilled onto one character. It's rather absurd oh yeah fsmash is 12 frames dsmash 6 and usmash 5. This character sickens me.

 

[Smog Frog]

if diddy had access to all his moves when he has a banana then yeah he would be on par with . but unfortunately(or fortunately) his only way of attacking before he disposes of his nanner is monkey flip, which is telegraphed in this situation.

 

[HeavyLobster]

On Halberd, we've added Heavy Lobster. Like the aforementioned Kricketunes and Petey, it will attack fighters.

Nah, I'm just here to watch and chill out. Why does everyone think that just because I'm a killer robot I'm all about attacking people? Sometimes I just want to sit back and have a good time.

 

[Smog Frog]

but robots are incapable of emotion, and henceforth having a good time

 

[HeavyLobster]

but robots are incapable of emotion, and henceforth having a good time

ROB looked pretty sad in SSE if you ask me. Why does everyone keep spreading these false stereotypes about robots?

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm not sure if there's any real true counters to diddy. But characters who I feel have the potential.

Custom Rob
Custom Villager
Custom Shiek
Diddy

I don't know about those characters, but I would list:

•
•
•

As Diddy contenders with customs on. Which is why I'm so excited for customs. I'd rather have a handful of very powerful characters rather than just one.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

if diddy had access to all his moves when he has a banana then yeah he would be on par with . but unfortunately(or fortunately) his only way of attacking before he disposes of his nanner is monkey flip, which is telegraphed in this situation.

I'm not comparong diddy to melee fox. Melee fox doesn't spawn items I don't understand the comparison you're trying to make.

I don't know about those characters, but I would list:

•
•
•

As Diddy contenders with customs on. Which is why I'm so excited for customs. I'd rather have a handful of very powerful characters rather than just one.

I think maybe pikachu but I'll need to see more although esam vs mvd was a great watch. Palutena just doesn't work a d IDK about mii brawler.

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of Monkey Flip, can it soft spike people? I've been messing around CPUs since you can pick certain MUs and get a vague idea how to fight them, but I had Diddy Monkey Flip grab me while I was off stage and it was like a footstool where Diddy hops off and I was left to drift downwards.

 

[Teshie U]

if diddy had access to all his moves when he has a banana then yeah he would be on par with . but unfortunately(or fortunately) his only way of attacking before he disposes of his nanner is monkey flip, which is telegraphed in this situation.

A well versed and technical player can still use ftilt/smash, all aerials/specials, but that works for and against Diddy.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Speaking of Monkey Flip, can it soft spike people? I've been messing around CPUs since you can pick certain MUs and get a vague idea how to fight them, but I had Diddy Monkey Flip grab me while I was off stage and it was like a footstool where Diddy hops off and I was left to drift downwards.

If the player presses the jump button when Diddy is latched onto an opponent after using monkey flip, Diddy will jump vertically rather than diagonally and the victim will be meteor smashed. It's not the strongest meteor though.

 

[Djent]

I don't know about those characters, but I would list:

•
•
•

As Diddy contenders with customs on. Which is why I'm so excited for customs. I'd rather have a handful of very powerful characters rather than just one.

is probaby even with HSB (comparatively early kill mix-ups and a strong neutral game). isn't, because despite HalleluHah she just can't match Diddy's ground game at all. I know little about.

 

[Project Quarantine]

I'm starting to get tired/bored of Greninja now (Is still the character I have stuck to the longest so far for Smash 4).

Hrmmm. Who to move onto next.

Mii brawler pls. There needs to be more brawler mains in custom environment ;(

 

[Ffamran]

If the player presses the jump button when Diddy is latched onto an opponent after using monkey flip, Diddy will jump vertically rather than diagonally and the victim will be meteor smashed. It's not the strongest meteor though.

Yay... Diddy can gimp people while recovering. Y'know who else can? Falco.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Yay... Diddy can gimp people while recovering. Y'know who else can? Falco.

So can Little Mac. THAT ain't Falco

 

[webbedspace]

Due to popular demand on Miiverse, we've added hazards to all stages.

"To celebrate Mewtwo's arrival, Prism Tower has come to Wii U... and now the background Zapdos and Yveltal will use Thunder and Hurricane on random fighters!

But that's not all! We're also adding Pokémon Stadium 1... to the 3DS."

 

[Blobface]

Yay... Diddy can gimp people while recovering. Y'know who else can? Falco.

Shameless main promotion. I expected better, Ffamran.

By the way, Dark Fists makes Ganondorf utterly amazing and you should main him because of it!

 

[Locke 06]

So, what do people think their mains' MU with Diddy actually are?

 

[Blobface]

So, what do people think their mains' MU with Diddy actually are?

40:60 without customs, 45:55 without.

Diddy's... Diddy-ness is just as problematic for him as it is for anyone else, but Ganondorf gets Dark Fists to deal with Diddy's aerial shenanigans.

 

[Smog Frog]

some delusional guy at our boards thinks that custom has an advantage vs diddy

yeah my boi's slept on but thats delusional

 

[HeroMystic]

So, what do people think their mains' MU with Diddy actually are?

40:60. Mario has a pretty good chance against Diddy as long as he can avoid getting killed early. Mobility is pretty important in this MU and Mario can match it along with having superior attack speed. He also can edgeguard Diddy for free thanks to FLUDD.

He just has to avoid getting killed off early from the usual Diddy shenanigans and respect his aerials, especially U-air since it combo breaks Mario.

 

[PUK]

Maybe Could have a good matchup, maybe even. Land trap, good horizontal and vertical speed and disjoints.

 

[Shaya]

Maybe Could have a good matchup, maybe even. Land trap, good horizontal and vertical speed and disjoints.

Rush down from Diddy plus the disparate kill ability will have Duck Hunt unravel most of the time in practice.
Diddy's own projectiles/tools tend to be pretty comparable.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So, what do people think their mains' MU with Diddy actually are?

: 45:55. His absurd range combined with MALLC (Monado Art Landing Lag Cancelling) allows him to keep Diddy out rather easily, but once Diddy is in, Shulk suffers the same problems that every other character does.

: 35:65. Most of her moves have about the same range as Diddy's, but his fair outranges a ton of her moves. Zelda already has no safe approach options, and his super long ranged fair makes it even harder for her to get in. A lot of her moves also have a ton of lag and she can be punished hard. Though once she does get in, she can hurt Diddy a lot. She can dair him out of side b and also gimp his up b with nair and dair.

 

[Luigi player]

I'm a bit late in addressing this post but anyways here goes.

Diddy with a nana in his hand can still grab you because of diddy flip. Since diddy has a command grab hiding in shield isn't always a viable option.

I get what you're saying but I simply don't agree with you MK was a beast there's no denying that but that doesn't take away from Diddy's nonsense.

I'm not sure if there's any real true counters to diddy. But characters who I feel have the potential.

Custom Rob
Custom Villager
Custom Shiek
Diddy

Other than that I don't really see anyone beating Diddy. Another problem with Diddy is he has some of the fastest moves in the game. 3 frame jab 4 frame dtilt 6 frame fair 5 frame bair 3 frame uair 6 frame grab 8 frame dash grab. These moves are some of if not the fastest moves for any character and their all pilled onto one character. It's rather absurd oh yeah fsmash is 12 frames dsmash 6 and usmash 5. This character sickens me.

Diddys jab sucks. And frame 3 is just good enough to not be slow.
Also did you ever look at the frame data of other characters?

Let's look at Fox for example.
Jab 2 (-1)
Dashattack 4 (-5)
Ftilt 6 (-4)
Dtilt 7 (+3)
Utilt 3 (-3)
Fsmash 13 (+1)
Usmash 8 (+3)
Dsmash 6
Nair 4 (-4)
Fair 7 (+1)
Bair 9 (+4)
Dair 5 (-12)
Uair 9 (+6)
Grab 6
DashGrab 10 (+2)

Overall Fox has a +9 frame advantage on Diddy for these moves.

Then there's Mario, Luigi, Doc, Marth, MK, Mii Fighter, Pikachu, Sheik, and others who have really good framedata too.

Move | Mario | Luigi | Sheik | Fox
Jab | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2
DashAtk | 6 | 4 | 5 | 4
Ftilt | 5 | 5 | 5 | 6
Utilt | 5 | 5 | 5 |3
Dtilt | 5 | 5 | 5|7
Fsmash | 15 | 12 | 12|13
Usmash | 9 | 9 | 11|8
Dsmash | 5 | 6 | 11|6
Nair | 3 | 3 | 3|4
Fair | 16 | 7 | 5|7
Bair | 6 | 6 | 4|9
Uair | 4 | 5 | 4|9
Dair | 5 | 10 | 15|5
Grab | 6 | 6 | 6|6
DashGrab | 8 | 8 | 8|8
Advantage on Diddy | 8 | 15 | 7 | 9

Overall frameadvantage against Diddy, Pikachu has a -2 disadv, and Marth a -8 disadv. (just to compare more numbers)​

Now look at Diddy Kong... he's a quick and nimble monkey. It makes sense that his framedata is good and fast. It would be stupid otherwise. His character can't be slow, it wouldn't make any sense. That's one thing he has going for him which makes him fundamentally a character who's great in the game. Though in Brawl he lacked a little range and there were less crazy combos, so he had to rely on bananas for most MUs to do well. And also frame 6 standing grab and frame 8 dashgrab is the norm for most characters, so again it wouldn't make sense to make Diddy slower.

A better thing would just be to nerf his uair a little knockbackwise, and maybe think about his fair and sideB, because fair is really safe and shuts down so many appraoch attempts, and sideB's grabrange is still great... it goes way below his animation, catching ducking/small opponents easily, and the grab holds on for a long while, so he can grab you even at almost the end of his sideB, where you might not expect it, so rolling away from that often still gets you grabbed (or kicked).
Diddys (not sideB) grabrange is actually really bad. I think if he gets nerfed a few frames on fair/sideB grablength and get's different knockback on uair it would be good enough to fix everything people have against him perfectly (okay, some might still hate stuff about Diddy but ah well, (almost?) every character has haters). Oh and I guess they could give his uthrow a little more knockback or endinglag so he can't follow up as easily. Maybe 1-3 more frames on dthrow as well to make it a little more difficult.
...But now this goes way too deep into this.

The point was Diddy has great framedata, yeah, but he's not alone, and he should be fast, just looking at him / his character. The framedata is not necessarily the problem here, he'd just need a few little other fixes to make people hate him less.

 

[Antonykun]

So, what do people think their mains' MU with Diddy actually are?

45:55 or less Diddy is too good at sitting in mid range where villager is weak and has way better kill power but man Villager is good at holding a lead

@SolidSense said disadvantaged so I'm sticking with that

Not a main but:

I don't even

 

[Ffamran]

So, what do people think their mains' MU with Diddy actually are?

0:100; you pick Falco against Diddy and the game tells you to get out and rethink your life decisions.

Probably 50:50 way back then when nobody even knew Falco existed, so they don't know how to fight him (even though he was in two previous games) and people didn't understand Diddy enough compared to today; find one of Keitaro's older videos of him going against Diddy and he did fine, but switched to Diddy to clear the set. Right now? Probably 30-35:65-70 because one, people still don't understand how to use Falco compared to motherfreaking Mii Swordfighter of all people and two, Diddy's metagame is like light years ahead of everyone. It's like if you had an amateur swordsman fight a seasoned swordsman. Even if that amateur had a new and "better" sword while the seasoned fighter had a worn-out sword, the seasoned one would probably kick the amateur's butt back home to his mama. The amateur would have to win by pure luck or some miracle like a meteor crashed down on the seasoned dude. Go home and be a family pheasant, Falco. Oh wait, he doesn't have one.

Seriously though, Falco doesn't have a family and if he does, there's reasons why he won't tell us. In Star Fox: Assault, the manual hinted that he considers Star Fox as his family.

As for the frame data thing, the most ridiculous things would be his aerials and Smashes. For example, Diddy's Side Smash is a frame 12 move that does 16% while Falco's frame 17 Side Smash only does 15%. Diddy's Side Smash also moves him forward more than Falco and most characters; I can only think of Sheik who has a Side Smash that moves her forward by a lot. Then there's the frame 3 Uair/sex kick that everyone's been complaining about.