Character Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You outspace it, spot dodge, jump, walk backwards, you beat it out with a smash attack/tilt/aerial. There is a lot you an do vs someone going for a grab.

vs nado.

Fsmash it spaced perfectly and hold your shield. That's all some characters had.

I'm lucky Lucario had transcendent priority so half his moveset could beat it out. A lot of character had nothing vs him outside of the above or some niche special move, Snake nade, Falco laser, etc.

It was far far worse for the cast when Metaknight's nado was around on top of his loads of other options he had.

And if diddy has a banana in his hand? Then I guess your option becomes playing next to the ledge so that if you do trip on his nana you fall of the stage. If he doesn't have a nana you have to contend with his fair or dtilt....which moves beat those?

 

[Pyr]

.....


Yes I've played several 7-3 MU'S and I've played 8-2 MUS before. It's really not that big of a difference. As for Nado some characters had options vs it. Damn I guess you just olved the diddy problem run around and jab. Also what about characters who jab is slower than Diddy's grab? Guess they're just screwed eh?

Actually, the difference is significant. What are those 7-3s and 8-2s you've played, for my reference?

And no. As Red said: You either block it or beat it. Grabs have counter-play universally. Tornado did not.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Actually, the difference is significant. What are those 7-3s and 8-2s you've played, for my reference?

And no. As Red said: You either block it or beat it. Grabs have counter-play universally. Tornado did not.

Brawl Zelda vs MK

Sm4sh Rosalina vs Diddy.

There's probably more though considering I played a bit of Zelda in brawl. There's MU's in this game I've played that I feel maybe 7-3 or worse but people may not agree. Such as Shiek vs Shulk and Diddy vs Palutena. I've also played dr. Mario vs Gannon which is pretty bad for dr. M from my understanding granted I'm not really that great with doc M.

 

[Smog Frog]

didnt nado demolish shields regardless?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Since when is Monkey Flip even remotely comparable to Mach Tornado in terms of safety? I've got no problem Uairing Diddys who predictably spam Monkey Flip as a recovery. Mach Tornado doesn't get beaten out so easily. Sure Diddy can wavebounce off of it and has way more mixups off of it than he should, but if you know where he's going you can beat him out. You're not so lucky with Nado unless you're at least a mid tier, sometimes not even then. Monkey Flip is really good but no one should even dream of putting it in the same ballpark as Tornado. Monkey Flip also has actual endlag, and is in no way spammable.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

didnt nado demolish shields regardless?

It did. While having STUPID good range.

Ike's fair could beat it out. Barely. And it was the Fair with the most disjointed range in Brawl. While having transcendent priority.

Brawl MK makes SSB4 Diddy look like Brawl Ganondorf by comparison. And no, Diddy doesn't have any 8-2 MUs. Or anything even remotely close. A 8-2 MU in the SSB series is ICs vs Ganondorf in Brawl.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And if diddy has a banana in his hand? Then I guess your option becomes playing next to the ledge so that if you do trip on his nana you fall of the stage. If he doesn't have a nana you have to contend with his fair or dtilt....which moves beat those?

This is gameplay.

He can't grab with a banana in hand, if he throws it I now know he can. It's like playing against Peach or anyone else with an item. You consider and think what they are capable of.

Yes he has other moves and this is apart of gameplay I'm telling you though Brawl MK nado was far stronger than anything that Diddy can use.

Heck shields weren't always an option with MK, sometimes that even failed because that things eats shields for breakfast.

Diddy is good, we get it. But he's not to the levels MK had.

Why? Because there is far more counterplay to a grab or other stuff diddy can do that what Brawl MK could do.

 

[Nobie]

I only ever approached Brawl casually so don't take this as an authoritative opinion, but I think saying that Diddy's recovery isn't as bad as it seems if played smartly is a far cry from Meta Knight's nigh-ungimpable properties, especially when you factor in the fact that Brawl had gliding, and Meta Knighy had an invincible startup move that KOs and transitions into a glide.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I only ever approached Brawl casually so don't take this as an authoritative opinion, but I think saying that Diddy's recovery isn't as bad as it seems if played smartly is a far cry from Meta Knight's nigh-ungimpable properties, especially when you factor in the fact that Brawl had gliding, and Meta Knighy had an invincible startup move that KOs and transitions into a glide.

Not trying to overstate diddy's revovery because it's not as good as MK but he's not easy to gimp. But there's times when you can exploit his recovery.

 

[TTTTTsd]

BPC is correct; this never happened. You were scolded for picking Old Sagat because he was such a powerful, scrub-friendly character, but there was never a hard and fast rule that said he was banned. Akuma/Gouki in ST, however, is another matter. He literally broke the game at points (air fireballs, ridiculous unblockable setups, etc). What's-his-name could probably tell you more (@ TTTTTsd ). Sim and Gouki was legit 9:1 in ST, wasn't it? Something stupid like that.

As for Diddy "destroying" this game? I'm sorry, but this community is going to kill the game faster than the actual meta will.

Smooth Criminal

Oh, I can talk about Akuma. Oh man can I talk about Akuma.

HERE WE GO. In long summary, why Akuma was banned...

Spoiler

Akuma was basically a god in ST. Access to an air fireball in a game where fireballs on the ground are godlike would be one thing, but the best part was the angle it went at. It went at the PERFECT angle to shut down most offensive options, it demanded respect, did I mention it was also slow and had a lovely amount of blockstun?

Akuma also has a blockstun infinite with his Red Fireball, that can chip people to death easily. That was also amazing, mind you.

Essentially Akuma vs. the cast was like, mega free in the hands of a good player, because Akuma had an optimal option for everything and legit no one could challenge that, it wasn't even like 6-4, it was just outright killing you. I am pretty sure Akuma would flatten Zangief, and yes I am positive he even bopped the game's top tier. His air fireball goes through lariats.

Did I mention pre-HDR Akuma could not be properly stunned, either? Oh he also has a fully invincible teleport and invincibility on his Tatsu startup, the invincibility on Tatsu being like CPS1 Shotos giving him all of those options as well.

The best part is Akuma was even banned in HDR when they "balanced" him, his fireball hitstun/blockstun stuff in HDR helped make him fair but then they gave him an SGS which led to a ton of unblockable setups.

Basically he's historically stupid, to the nth degree. His options and gameplay far outpace anyone in ST by a long mile, it's like he's from a different game, and thus, his ass is banned.

Whew! I have nothing to say about Diddy Kong that hasn't been said already, I'm neutral on him atm. But someone tagged me and said ST Akuma so kneejerk. Also ST Akuma was dumb enough that even his TATSU had invincibility frames. Silly. Old Sagat (and Claw) were just softbanned in certain JP tournaments, but there's no universal hard ban on them worldwide like there is on Akuma.

 

[Shaya]

Brawl MK makes SSB4 Diddy look like Brawl Ganondorf by comparison. And no, Diddy doesn't have any 8-2 MUs. Or anything even remotely close. A 8-2 MU in the SSB series is ICs vs Ganondorf in Brawl.

Uhh what?
No.1/Top Tier in one game can not be fairly compared to anything else other than a top tier in the other. Saying S4 Diddy is like Brawl Ganondorf just doesn't seem to have any logical bearing whatsoever.

MK's dtilt was a pretty average move (for him). Ftilt did everything dtilt did, but better.
Tornado was an amazing move with minimal risk medium reward. In some match ups a lot of reward as characters didn't have solid means of keeping their shields alive long enough. There was a means for Meta Knight to abuse Tornado in every match up, against characters like Marth or ICs they would tend not to take the risk of it though.
Grounded Shuttle Loop was dominant especially on platformed stages, but well spaced moves could deal with it (i.e. good characters).
MK's up air was 2 frames start up.
A perfect shield of any one of MK's moves but super perfect ftilts was punishable by the best characters. Perfect shielding was a major part of top level Brawl play.

Now look at what the engine/bugs that existed made MK silly: Dimension cape, ledge mechanics (sweetspotting / invincibility) and gliding. Let's look at what existed to make other characters compete: guaranteed kill set ups or highly damaging combos/chain grabs that would force Meta Knight to approach.

I would posit that Diddy's dash grab is of minimal risk (in all bar 1 or 2 match ups in this game) with the highest reward in the game.
Dash grabs are fast start up, excessively long range, and the natural counter to them (spot dodges) are all laggier/weaker in dealing with them to the point of which you frame trap yourself for reading the dash grab with spot dodges. It's really really really stupid. I feel it's a fair comparison to make between Diddy's dash grab and MK's tornado, except Diddy's grab gets 20-30% and kills as low as 70% while MK's tornado shut down options and controlled space, with power shielding/well timed rolls and dodges being very potent against it still (No matter what, MK was facing a minimum of 30 frames of lag from his nado). There is more counterplay to Brawl MK's tornado than dash grabs in this game and the reward MK got is no where near Diddy's.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It was hyperbole.

Also, couldn't MK avoid the lag by ending the nado right over the edge and grabbing it?

 

[HeavyLobster]

There is more counterplay to Brawl MK's tornado than dash grabs in this game and the reward MK got is no where near Diddy's.

But grab armor no longer exists, meaning the main counterplay to dash grabs is generally to just jab. Sure it's tough for characters lacking fast moves, but something that loses to any hitbox doesn't exactly lack counterplay. I absolutely agree that spotdodge is underpowered and the balance of power between them and dash grabs needs to be remedied, but no dash grab is safe in neutral the way Brawl Tornado was.

 

[Shaya]

It was hyperbole.

Touche.

But even then, in a somewhat serious discussion of Brawl MK vs S4 Diddy, you did not really provide anything substantial bar B button and "ganondorf comparison" yet seemed pretty fixed on your opinion.

But grab armor no longer exists, meaning the main counterplay to dash grabs is generally to just jab. Sure it's tough for characters lacking fast moves, but something that loses to any hitbox doesn't exactly lack counterplay. I absolutely agree that spotdodge is underpowered and the balance of power between them and dash grabs needs to be remedied, but no dash grab is safe in neutral the way Brawl Tornado was.

That affects standing grabs significantly more than moving grabs. When a 8 or 9 frame move has a near roll length in range, you'd be surprised what standing options characters have against it when most moves have a 2 frame hitbox duration on average.

Tornado in neutral wasn't that much of a thing. You couldn't approach with it.
What made it seem like that was it's obnoxious priority and speed/range of it. "Oh you did something that I know has any lag whatsoever?" Well I can Tornado that! (Bouncing Fish sends it's greetings). Oh you're in a disadvantageous position? Well good luck against Tornado!
Oh you're in an advantageous position and didn't respect something and used your double jump and are now regretting your decision? TORNADO.

But in neutral, a tornado could be crouched into a power shield and then spot dodged towards the end (angling your shield upwards and whatnot). The 9/10 usage of Tornado was easily handled by the entirety of high tier. If you look at late Brawl usage of it by Japanese players against Dabuz (not a purposeful name drop, more so it was a distinctive memory of it being used as such) was moving in with nado and then using the respect the opponent has for it to dip out early and escape for free. It suddenly turned into a "need to read/properly react to him poking with it", but all the same conditions still applied.

Note: there was a lot of disbalance in the game in terms of OoS options. If a character's only answer to Nado was shielding and didn't have the mobility or means to move around it, they would be up **** creek.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Touche.

But even then, in a somewhat serious discussion of Brawl MK vs S4 Diddy, you did not really provide anything substantial bar B button and "ganondorf comparison" yet seemed pretty fixed on your opinion.

I'm fixed on my general opinion of Diddy being nowhere near as bad as MK was largely due to mechanics. Yes Diddy has a stupidly good grab and Uair game. However, there were some very important system changes done. If you have a decent grab, you can stuff his grab. His Uair you can at least try to force him to guess if he needs to go for it or Fair.

Nado was an amazing complement tool to MK's kit, but not what I would call his primary scary factor. If Diddy's grab/uair game is his key factor, MK's planking game was his key factor and the thing that should be compared. MK's Nado should be compared to like, Diddy's Banana/Dtilt/Fair.

There were buckets of frame data for MK's planking game discussed during Brawl's time, but it was next to impossible to stop him. Between the ledge invincibility, the Uair/Dair/Nair/Shuttle Loop/Cape options, the 5 jumps, all of that on top of Nado and other options making it easy to gain the lead in the first place. I forget the exact number of frames where he was actually vulnerable, but it was... stupid. Very very very stupid. And I haven't even added in his basic air camping on top of it yet, or flying under the stage!

Another thing to consider is that MK had to be targeted with the LGL rule, a heavily nerfed stage list, and a glitch ban/limit. Diddy hasn't needed anything like that. If anything when it comes to the stages we need the opposite which is healthy for the game.

I was right on board for the MK ban fairly early on. If I felt Diddy needed a ban, I would be doing the same. I'm not at that point, particularly not with customs. He has issues, but not to that mind boggling extent.

 

[Shaya]

In a completely "vanilla" game, MK was virtually winning games with a 1% lead.
This didn't stop people outplaying them first. Plank, by his name sake, never took out a big name.
"Abusive" things only became extremely apparent between similarly skilled opponents (this is a pretty important thing to remember when talking about issues within any game). Like DSF vs DEHF.

However, we're talking about the competitive game (one which we tried, and failed, to remove abuse from), and the one that was played was one in which we had a metric ton of rules to curtail this.
As baffling as it sounds, those rules turned MK on the ledge against the likes of Marth, ICs, ZSS to a death sentence. With a 30 LGL, MK could win with a 1% lead with 2 minutes on the clock, with the same LGL Pit could with 5 minutes (god Brawl was disgusting lol). Anti-scrooging sure helped that... kinda.

Either way, we're blaming the game more so than the character. We can blame rage and the loss of vectoring as to why Diddy is so obnoxious in this game too.
IIRC, MK was vulnerable for around 10 frames during his second up air from planking, but up air into dropping down dimension cape was nearly insurmountable as the frame advantage on shield from it and the run off ledge snapping animation (unique to every character) usually gave people under 5 frames. Dimension Cape could be moved to be on stage reactively and if not restricted by "extending" could completely negate the situation completely. However, this perfect planking required 3 ledge grabs for every 2 seconds.


For the sake of whatever, with all these rules in affect, you'd [not] be surprised how many MK mains felt ICs were either tied or better than them, and notable ICs main believed they were the best in the game too. I like comparing Diddy to ICs honestly, there are much easier congruences. NY/NJ was one of the regions at the forefront of the brief MK ban and rescinded in a knee-jerky type of way because of ICs dominance that immediately followed.

 

[Villyness]

V if you see this, I figure you'd be perfect to talk on this matchup.

I'll try to keep this short cause I don't really understand the context and there seems to be a very big conversation happening (of sorts).

Imo Villager vs Diddy is either even or in Diddy's favour, but not by much.

It's well worth it to Pocket the nana. It saves Villager a LOT of trouble, and imo it dictates the flow of the match.

Even with the nana gone though, it's still difficult for Villager cause the mayor can't really challenge Diddy in the air, but it's bearable. There's nothing stopping Diddy from running up and fair'ing over lloids and against Diddy Villager can't commit to slingshots because the mayor risks eating aerials. Once Diddy sticks to Villager it's very hard for Villager to get him off without losing stage control.

Despite the disadvantages I feel like if the Villager's patient enough and knows when and where to slingshot/lloid, it'd be annoying for Diddy cause he's forced to approach and if a fair isn't spaced right Villager has the option to punish, albeit weakly.

Also, gimping Diddy is cinch if they recover low, but a Diddy who knows the MU will recover high. Diddy going offstage doesn't necessarily mean a lost stock, but it's likely if the Villager's on point and doesn't commit to a particular gimp option.

I can say more but I'll leave people to discuss.

Disclaimer: I don't know EVERYTHING about this MU, and for all I know perhaps I'm playing the MU completely wrong. I'm just using my experiences playing a Diddy main who's been kind enough to give me insight into playing Diddy/against Diddy. If there's anything you disagree with here you're free to say why but this is just my experience personally.

 

[deepseadiva]

I love that no one mentions or anymore because everyone is so relieved they're dead. xD

 

[Ffamran]

I love that no one mentions or anymore because everyone is so relieved they're dead. xD

Well, you gotta let the old man sleep. He's been through too many wars and too many Metal Gears.

As for the Ice Climbers, I don't know... Maybe they found more business helping people up the Himalayas? Speaking of which, people need to pick up their trash while climbing the mountains...

Speaking of Diddy, is it a good idea to follow him off stage? Is it because people are unfamiliar with how off-stage game works in SSB4 because of how young it is or is it because of The Fear?

 

[Shaya]

Recipe:
1 pinch of 's asinine hitboxes and relative kill power.
5 heaped teaspoons of 's lack of counters and unfavourable match ups
4 cups of 's dominance from brain dead gameplay


Bring to the boil for 6 weeks before taking out the layer of DI options from the top that are residue from which unfavourably spoil the stock.
Serve as is with copious salt to taste. Brandish it with colors and flavourings with freshly ground .

Alternatively let sit to cool for 3-7 months and pray for pale skinned purple-ish psychic cats to finally bring much better spices and ingredients for a better soup.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Are you trying to make a recipe for cancer?

 

[Djent]

Meta-static cancer, specifically.

 

[Blobface]

I still say that, of all the characters we could have as overlord, Diddy is easily one of the better ones. Having a polarizing character like Sheik, Little Mac, or Villager be the dominant force in the meta would be destructotastic. No matter how good Diddy is, he's not a very polarizing character. He just has a matchup chart of 45:55's and 40:60's

 

[Quickhero]

@ Shaya You forgot to mention the most important ingredient....

A metric ton of used bananas.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Shaya You forgot to mention the most important ingredient....

A metric ton of used bananas.

I swear if that one song is brought up, you're gonna pay.

Speaking of which, who uses Banana Peels a lot? I remember M2K did, but later matches with Diddy players, I don't see them used a lot. Then again, I don't watch a lot of matches with Diddy.

 

[Locke 06]

If we're making cancer, I'll prep the polio to fight it. Shameless plug for real life issues & science, because this is amazing and people should know about it.

I've started rethinking Diddy a bit and the idea of "invalidation." Mega Man and Rosalina are considered far more polarizing characters because they can dominate the neutral state to the point where nothing else matters. Diddy does not do this (FAir WoP is good, but not a wall that cannot be broken), but his risk/reward is disgusting. If you kill at 75-80% and you get 20+% on a single grab, 12% on FAir, 6% on dtilt which leads into stuff... Diddy is simply playing a different game. Sure, he doesn't have a move that can shut down the opponents/limit their options (dominant neutral), but at what point does a dominant advantage become invalidating? Brawl's chain grabs were invalidating... But is this that far off, with the banana to set up grabs?

If the opponent does not have great tools to combat Diddy's neutral, Diddy has a very strong advantage due to his risk/reward to the point where you can start to call it "polarizing."

And as a side-note that I'm curious about, how fast is an item toss (banana is relevant, but I've always wanted to know for Mega Man purposes)?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I swear if that one song is brought up, you're gonna pay.

Speaking of which, who uses Banana Peels a lot? I remember M2K did, but later matches with Diddy players, I don't see them used a lot. Then again, I don't watch a lot of matches with Diddy.

I think mvd uses them a lot.

 

[mimgrim]

A 8-2 MU in the SSB series is ICs vs Ganondorf in Brawl.

Pfft. Melee Sheik VS Melee Bowser. 99-1.

I love that no one mentions or anymore because everyone is so relieved they're dead. xD

I kinda miss Snake, or more accurately I totally his moveset/play-style. :<

 

[Ffamran]

I cannot believe I just analyzed this... WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE? Well, you guys and gals can now understand why Falco's Up Smash is so wonky.

I finally, finally understand why Falco's Up Smash whiffs so much. Thanks @Nammy12 for SSB4 Falco's move gifs.

WARNING: Long winded explanation; just read the first paragraph if you're not interested in the rest.

Spoiler

Can't tell? Look at the pink arc. Yeah, it's arcing not like Fox's or Yoshi's backflip which covers their entire front and looks like they're arcing "flatly", but diagonally around him which means: Z-axis dodging shenanigans. In Training Mode, you can - well the 3DS version can, I'm not sure about the Wii U version - use the "Hold L" speed option. Instead of holding it, tap it and watch Falco's Up Smash snapshot to snapshot. Before that, watch his charging animation; Falco twists himself so he can backflip while turning to hit with the heel of his right foot then his left - weird wording, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. This also explains why he lands differently than Fox and SSB4 Yoshi's Up Smash.

Look at Fox's Up Smash. Yoshi's is pretty much the same thing along Brawl Wolf's Dash Attack and Falco's old Up Smash from Melee and Brawl. All three turn to face the front with Fox preparing to kick with his both feet at the start then his right leg for the rest of the move - this probably explains the sweet-spot -, Yoshi preparing to kick with his left leg, and Wolf preparing to kick with both feet, but only Fox and Yoshi land facing forward on both feet while Falco lands right foot first and kneels down to let his left foot land since it "lagged" behind for the second hit. All three also kick with the front part of their feet. Thank @Zelkam for Fox's Up Smash gif.

Funny enough, Brawl Wolf's Dash attack had him landing like Falco, but he performed the kick similarly to Fox, Melee/Brawl Falco, and SSB4 Yoshi. Thank @TheWolfBackRoom for the Brawl Wolf gifs.

Brawl Wolf's Up Smash had him turning, spinning, twisting, or whatever you want to call it; Sonic's Uair was the same. In other words: it covered a radius around Wolf before pulling people in to the "scissor cut". I say Brawl Wolf because for all we know, if Wolf returns, he might not have that Up Smash. I mean, look at Falco and his changes in SSB4. Or even Pikachu who has different animations in SSB4.

SSB4 Falco and Brawl Wolf (and Sonic) had beautifully animated and flashy Up Smashes - Uair for Sonic -, but in practice, Brawl Wolf's would beat SSB4 Falco's because of that horizontal coverage (Z- and X-axises) whereas SSB4 Falco's Up Smash covers partially the Z- and X-axises. It really, really sucks since Falco's Up Smash is one of my favorite moves animation-wise; Sheik's Down Smash is another favorite since she breakdances while fighting.

 

[Jaxas]

I cannot believe I just analyzed this... WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE? Well, you guys and gals can now understand why Falco's Up Smash is so wonky.

I finally, finally understand why Falco's Up Smash whiffs so much. Thanks @Nammy12 for SSB4 Falco's move gifs.

WARNING: Long winded explanation; just read the first paragraph if you're not interested in the rest.

Spoiler

Can't tell? Look at the pink arc. Yeah, it's arcing not like Fox's or Yoshi's backflip which covers their entire front and looks like they're arcing "flatly", but diagonally around him which means: Z-axis dodging shenanigans. In Training Mode, you can - well the 3DS version can, I'm not sure about the Wii U version - use the "Hold L" speed option. Instead of holding it, tap it and watch Falco's Up Smash snapshot to snapshot. Before that, watch his charging animation; Falco twists himself so he can backflip while turning to hit with the heel of his right foot then his left - weird wording, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. This also explains why he lands differently than Fox and SSB4 Yoshi's Up Smash.

Look at Fox's Up Smash. Yoshi's is pretty much the same thing along Brawl Wolf's Dash Attack and Falco's old Up Smash from Melee and Brawl. All three turn to face the front with Fox preparing to kick with his both feet at the start then his right leg for the rest of the move - this probably explains the sweet-spot -, Yoshi preparing to kick with his left leg, and Wolf preparing to kick with both feet, but only Fox and Yoshi land facing forward on both feet while Falco lands right foot first and kneels down to let his left foot land since it "lagged" behind for the second hit. All three also kick with the front part of their feet. Thank @Zelkam for Fox's Up Smash gif.

Funny enough, Brawl Wolf's Dash attack had him landing like Falco, but he performed the kick similarly to Fox, Melee/Brawl Falco, and SSB4 Yoshi. Thank @TheWolfBackRoom for the Brawl Wolf gifs.

Brawl Wolf's Up Smash had him turning, spinning, twisting, or whatever you want to call it; Sonic's Uair was the same. In other words: it covered a radius around Wolf before pulling people in to the "scissor cut". I say Brawl Wolf because for all we know, if Wolf returns, he might not have that Up Smash. I mean, look at Falco and his changes in SSB4. Or even Pikachu who has different animations in SSB4.

SSB4 Falco and Brawl Wolf (and Sonic) had beautifully animated and flashy Up Smashes - Uair for Sonic -, but in practice, Brawl Wolf's would beat SSB4 Falco's because of that horizontal coverage (Z- and X-axises) whereas SSB4 Falco's Up Smash covers partially the Z- and X-axises. It really, really sucks since Falco's Up Smash is one of my favorite moves animation-wise; Sheik's Down Smash is another favorite since she breakdances while fighting.

So does the Usmash hit better on 2D stages (Duck Hunt, Flat Zone X, etc & omega versions)?

 

[Dre89]

Uhh what?
No.1/Top Tier in one game can not be fairly compared to anything else other than a top tier in the other. Saying S4 Diddy is like Brawl Ganondorf just doesn't seem to have any logical bearing whatsoever.

MK's dtilt was a pretty average move (for him). Ftilt did everything dtilt did, but better.
Tornado was an amazing move with minimal risk medium reward. In some match ups a lot of reward as characters didn't have solid means of keeping their shields alive long enough. There was a means for Meta Knight to abuse Tornado in every match up, against characters like Marth or ICs they would tend not to take the risk of it though.
Grounded Shuttle Loop was dominant especially on platformed stages, but well spaced moves could deal with it (i.e. good characters).
MK's up air was 2 frames start up.
A perfect shield of any one of MK's moves but super perfect ftilts was punishable by the best characters. Perfect shielding was a major part of top level Brawl play.

Now look at what the engine/bugs that existed made MK silly: Dimension cape, ledge mechanics (sweetspotting / invincibility) and gliding. Let's look at what existed to make other characters compete: guaranteed kill set ups or highly damaging combos/chain grabs that would force Meta Knight to approach.

I would posit that Diddy's dash grab is of minimal risk (in all bar 1 or 2 match ups in this game) with the highest reward in the game.
Dash grabs are fast start up, excessively long range, and the natural counter to them (spot dodges) are all laggier/weaker in dealing with them to the point of which you frame trap yourself for reading the dash grab with spot dodges. It's really really really stupid. I feel it's a fair comparison to make between Diddy's dash grab and MK's tornado, except Diddy's grab gets 20-30% and kills as low as 70% while MK's tornado shut down options and controlled space, with power shielding/well timed rolls and dodges being very potent against it still (No matter what, MK was facing a minimum of 30 frames of lag from his nado). There is more counterplay to Brawl MK's tornado than dash grabs in this game and the reward MK got is no where near Diddy's.

Why spotdodge if you have enough frames to beat out the dashgrab with an attack or just counter it with a pivot grab. There's no grab armour anymore so several options beat out dashgrab now.

Spotdodging is for when you have minimal frames to move and people don't think that you could spotdodge in time (because it's normally a matter of a few frames).

 

[Nabbitnator]

I cannot believe I just analyzed this... WHAT AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE? Well, you guys and gals can now understand why Falco's Up Smash is so wonky.

I finally, finally understand why Falco's Up Smash whiffs so much. Thanks @Nammy12 for SSB4 Falco's move gifs.

WARNING: Long winded explanation; just read the first paragraph if you're not interested in the rest.

Spoiler

Can't tell? Look at the pink arc. Yeah, it's arcing not like Fox's or Yoshi's backflip which covers their entire front and looks like they're arcing "flatly", but diagonally around him which means: Z-axis dodging shenanigans. In Training Mode, you can - well the 3DS version can, I'm not sure about the Wii U version - use the "Hold L" speed option. Instead of holding it, tap it and watch Falco's Up Smash snapshot to snapshot. Before that, watch his charging animation; Falco twists himself so he can backflip while turning to hit with the heel of his right foot then his left - weird wording, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. This also explains why he lands differently than Fox and SSB4 Yoshi's Up Smash.

Look at Fox's Up Smash. Yoshi's is pretty much the same thing along Brawl Wolf's Dash Attack and Falco's old Up Smash from Melee and Brawl. All three turn to face the front with Fox preparing to kick with his both feet at the start then his right leg for the rest of the move - this probably explains the sweet-spot -, Yoshi preparing to kick with his left leg, and Wolf preparing to kick with both feet, but only Fox and Yoshi land facing forward on both feet while Falco lands right foot first and kneels down to let his left foot land since it "lagged" behind for the second hit. All three also kick with the front part of their feet. Thank @Zelkam for Fox's Up Smash gif.

Funny enough, Brawl Wolf's Dash attack had him landing like Falco, but he performed the kick similarly to Fox, Melee/Brawl Falco, and SSB4 Yoshi. Thank @TheWolfBackRoom for the Brawl Wolf gifs.

Brawl Wolf's Up Smash had him turning, spinning, twisting, or whatever you want to call it; Sonic's Uair was the same. In other words: it covered a radius around Wolf before pulling people in to the "scissor cut". I say Brawl Wolf because for all we know, if Wolf returns, he might not have that Up Smash. I mean, look at Falco and his changes in SSB4. Or even Pikachu who has different animations in SSB4.

SSB4 Falco and Brawl Wolf (and Sonic) had beautifully animated and flashy Up Smashes - Uair for Sonic -, but in practice, Brawl Wolf's would beat SSB4 Falco's because of that horizontal coverage (Z- and X-axises) whereas SSB4 Falco's Up Smash covers partially the Z- and X-axises. It really, really sucks since Falco's Up Smash is one of my favorite moves animation-wise; Sheik's Down Smash is another favorite since she breakdances while fighting.

I'm a bit confused. So does his up smash whiff because of how he positions himself? As for wolf i hope they keep his up smash. I thought it was cool.

 

[Ffamran]

So does the Usmash hit better on 2D stages (Duck Hunt, Flat Zone X, etc & omega versions)?

I'm not sure, but this only covered the animation. The first hit can knock people back too much and cause the second hit to whiff resulting in a 4% Smash attack. I think you can even DI it making the second hit whiff too.

Also, I think the hitboxes end earlier than the animation. Short and crouching characters won't get hit by it from the back and this might be the CPU air dodging, but I had them land on Falco and it missed completely - I'm leaning towards perfect dodging and maybe the they landed perfectly in between Falco's kicks.

On Battlefield, because the move barely touches over the platforms, it's either the first or second hit and most likely the first kick will hit unless, I guess, if you do a reverse Up Smash or something. So, this makes Utilt more useful if someone's on a platform. The first kick never killed Pit at center stage or around the stage and I doubt even with platforms and a high ceiling, that it would kill.

Long story short, unlike, I think it was Greninja's Side Smash, Falco's Up Smash not only has animation "issues", but also functionality/property issues. It's a fantastic move if it fully connects, but when it doesn't...

I understand not taking Brawl Wolf's Up Smash and just giving it to SSB4 Falco, but then there was Bair becoming Wolf's Bair and an image that had Falco in a similar pose to his Melee and Brawl Bair. That Bair being a sex kick would have made Falco's disadvantage less painful. It's weird to say the least.

I'm a bit confused. So does his up smash whiff because of how he positions himself? As for wolf i hope they keep his up smash. I thought it was cool.

Basically, yes. Smash has always been a 2.5D game. While I don't really know about past games except for SSB64 having primitive, but at the time, advanced hitboxes - literally, hitboxes -, SSB4 seems to make hitboxes more accurate to the animation resulting in things like the way Falco's Up Smash whiffing or Marth and Lucina's Shieldbreaker whiffing if you're too close because Falchion isn't hitting you. Look at Brawl and Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot. He turns before launching forward on the ground and during the turn, he's not hitting anything. It's only when he launches does he hit stuff.

With Falco's Up Smash, it's probably a combination of how he's kicking and maybe the hitboxes ending sooner than the animation. Fox and Yoshi cover the 2D with the kick - front, top, and part of their back. Adding the ".5D" or 3rd D since we don't play Smash in third person, they're covering their front, top, part of the back, but not really the sides which Link's Spin Attack would do. Falco's kicking diagonally. Theoretically, in 2D, he'd cover the front, top, and back too, but in 3D, he's covering part of the sides, part of the front, part of the back and the top. His Utilt also does this too, but less end lag and less knockback on the first hit makes it easier to link.

Does this make any sense? How about this. Take a circle or a can, like a can of cat food or something, and lay it flat on a table. That's how Fox and Yoshi's Up Smash work. Now, lift the circle up a bit and tilt it. That's how Falco's work. As for Wolf's you'd need 2 circles.

Edit: I should clarify that it whiffs mostly behind him rather than completely whiffing at any point during the move while the first hit can cause the second to whiff.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

This axis stuff is fascinating and obnoxious at the same time. They made the one thing realistic that they didn't need to.

 

[Ffamran]

This axis stuff is fascinating and obnoxious at the same time. They made the one thing realistic that they didn't need to.

It's a little of both. For one, Meta Knight's Galaxia not having proper hitboxes on certain moves like Ftilt. Add in disjoints like Link's Dair which has a wacky horizontal hitbox, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's disjoint on their Side Smash, or Falco's disjoint on his Dtilt and Fair. Then there's Diddy with his Hair being able to hit below him. At this rate, Diddy has a sex kick through his Uair. @ Lavani , didn't you have a gif of Diddy's Uair hitting below him?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's a little of both. For one, Meta Knight's Galaxia not having proper hitboxes on certain moves like Ftilt. Add in disjoints like Link's Dair which has a wacky horizontal hitbox, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's disjoint on their Side Smash, or Falco's disjoint on his Dtilt and Fair. Then there's Diddy with his Hair being able to hit below him. At this rate, Diddy has a sex kick through his Uair. @ Lavani , didn't you have a gif of Diddy's Uair hitting below him?

I have seen it irl. God, it's a ridiculous hitbox. "You're too low to be hit with my Fair? I'll just Uair you"

 

[Lavani]

@ Lavani , didn't you have a gif of Diddy's Uair hitting below him?

You mean this?

And now I'm watching matches on Trifroze's channel because someone in that thread linked one of the matches. Looks like Dynamiitti IV was played with customs enabled and it's pretty awesome so far.



although... http://puu.sh/ePFbB/afe757fcb4.webm ಠ_ಠ

 

[Ffamran]

First the Uair bottom hitbox, then Fair hitting Pikachu before Pikachu even appeared in front of Diddy... Why can't Falco have this kind of crap?

 

[ぱみゅ]

The worst part is that it isn't even a weaker hitbox, it hits just as hard as his toes.

 

[HeavyLobster]

First the Uair bottom hitbox, then Fair hitting Pikachu before Pikachu even appeared in front of Diddy... Why can't Falco have this kind of crap?

I still have repressed trauma from trying to get through Falco's lasers on FD in Brawl. Falco's had his share of high tier jank over the years.