Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Wut? What is this Falco doing at 1:43 of this video? Is he chaining perfect pivots? It looks like he's dancing.

It looks deceptive since he's just twirling around going who knows where.

 

[Luco]

Oh, I lied, woops. Fair trades with Diddy's Fair which is disadvantageous for us because Fair is lingering multi-hit move.

Oh, Ffamran, a similar thing existed for Marth in Brawl. Isn't perfect pivoting something else? Or was the term carried over from Brawl and I just failed to link the term until now?

 

[Antonykun]

Wut? What is this Falco doing at 1:43 of this video? Is he chaining perfect pivots? It looks like he's dancing.

It looks deceptive since he's just twirling around going who knows where.

@Izaw calls that saw dancing,

 

[mimgrim]

Wut? What is this Falco doing at 1:43 of this video? Is he chaining perfect pivots? It looks like he's dancing.

It looks deceptive since he's just twirling around going who knows where.

Looks like Pivot Walking.

 

[Luco]

Looks like Pivot Walking.

That's the term! Thanks for that. =)

Pivot walking was a weird tech in Brawl. Some characters like Marth, it allowed them to do a kind of wavedash-like thing in terms that it allowed him to move really quickly whilst being able to execute a smash attack at any time. Unfortunately it's hard to pull off and not really worth it normally, and in Brawl there was only like 2 characters that moved faster than regular walking for it to be remotely useful. Who knows though, that might be different in smash 4.

 

[mimgrim]

Palutena has a really easy to do Pivot Walk with good speed (pretty sure it is faster then her regular walk speed) and pretty good distance. If you could get it down consistently with her it would be superior to her walking in just about every way since, just like walking, she could preform any action out of it, while moving faster then her regular walk speed. But is generally character specific.

 

[Luco]

Palutena has a really easy to do Pivot Walk with good speed (pretty sure it is faster then her regular walk speed) and pretty good distance. If you could get it down consistently with her it would be superior to her walking in just about every way since, just like walking, she could preform any action out of it, while moving faster then her regular walk speed. But is generally character specific.

In a way. I mean, of course there are times you want to be facing a certain way for when you edge-guard and pivot walking could interfere with that - but as a general rule, I'd love to see PW implemented more into gameplay. My brother used to do it when we played and it just looks really flashy and fun.

Oh man, it makes me wish we had more ATs again. I love playing Ness, but there was a certain fun to being a ludicrously flashy Lucas with zap jumps, z-cancelling, magnet pulls, B-reversed PK Fires and wavebounces, and the rest. *nostalgia*

Even Peach is slightly less technical than she used to be. Glide tossing used to be so much fun, and then Nintendo said nope.

 

[Blobface]

Wut? What is this Falco doing at 1:43 of this video? Is he chaining perfect pivots? It looks like he's dancing.

It looks deceptive since he's just twirling around going who knows where.

The Elite Falco Interpretive Dance Assault; Meta-defining tech.

 

[Ffamran]

The Elite Falco Interpretive Dance Assault; Meta-defining tech.

Apparently Falco's been capable of it since Melee if gamefaqs is to be trusted.
OP said at 2:53, but I don't see much...

In Brawl, it was a thing too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGPoSoNYeyY. I never heard of it, though. Marth and Lucina can do this in SSB4, right?

 

[AvariceX]

Pivot walking is really easy in this game if you use a tilt cstick. Hold A, walk, tap the tilt-stick in the opposite direction of your walk. I know Link and Palutena can do it, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone could (I also wouldn't be surprised if Mega Man can't because of his weird jab).

 

[mimgrim]

You can also Pivot Walk by just very lightly pressing the the control stick back in forth without fully pressing the stick towards either side. Like lightly press the control stick about a quarter or so to the right and then quickly, but lightly, about a quarter to the left. At least you can do this in Brawl and Smash 4 (as well as the method above). Melee is a whole different beast when it comes to pivoting in general though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Oh, you mean top players will pick good characters? "Quick, let's ban a character who's not a problem before he can turn into a problem!" If a game is good, it'll survive the existence of a clear "best" character. See also: Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, every single iteration of Street Fighter 4, Street Fighter Third Strike, Mortal Kombat 9, Injustice, every single smash game, almost every single fighting game ever.

V Sagat was banned in Japan....just saying.

It's not about banning a character who's potentially good but diddy is a problem with no answers and if we continue down this path diddy will destroy the game.

 

[san.]

It was called doop walking in brawl and only marth and falco used it much.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

V Sagat was banned in Japan....just saying.

This didn't happen.

 

[mimgrim]

It was called doop walking in brawl and only marth and falco used it much.

It goes under many different names, tbh. I've also seen it called dance trotting, sex walking, dancing, crack walking, and various other names I can't remember.

"Pivot Walking" is perhaps the most straightforward and practical name I have heard for it though, and thus the one I use.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This didn't happen.

It didn't? I could've sworn it did happen. Oh well.

I thought it was called crack walking/ haze walking.

 

[Blobface]

If we just plain ban Diddy, Sheik takes his place. Having the best character be very polarizing is literally the absolute worst thing that could happen to Smash 4. To me, one of it's selling points as a competitive game is that almost every character is viable; at a lot of tourneys, there's maybe 1-3 Diddys and then every other player is unique. We replace Diddy with Sheik and suddenly over half the cast loses their viability to needles.

 

[Ffamran]

We should just call it Falco's mating dance.

So, Falco and Palutena can do it and probably Marth and Lucina. It's not an incredibly useful/game changing thing, but it could be used for mind games or what not, right?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If we just plain ban Diddy, Sheik takes his place. Having the best character be very polarizing is literally the absolute worst thing that could happen to Smash 4. To me, one of it's selling points as a competitive game is that almost every character is viable; at a lot of tourneys, there's maybe 1-3 Diddys and then every other player is unique. We replace Diddy with Sheik and suddenly over half the cast loses their viability to needles.

Every character isn't going to be viable that's the simple truth of fighting games. You're going to need every character to have crazy options or every character have poor options. The difference between a diddy or a shiek is a big difference IMO. I feel like diddy warps the metagame to an extent that it's rather ridiculous. I doubt we're going to see a difference from what we've seen result wise. I just think we're going to see more Diddys in the future. You're going to have to answer Diddy. To me the best bet is the mirror.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think we should drop this doom and gloom mentality about diddy, he's nowhere near the level mk was

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

i think we should drop this doom and gloom mentality about diddy, he's nowhere near the level mk was

Idk man the biggest difference is MK off stage game was ridiculous. Diddy has legit kill set ups and hits harder with equally ridiculous moves. Is diddy's dtilt that much worse than MK's? What about his grab game? Uair? Fsmash? Fair? Jab? Bair? We can say that he's not MK but how many areas is MK actually better than Diddy? Then there's also stage control. I don't think it's doom and gloom. But actually looking at recent trends. We shall ser what happens when EVO rolls around. I however only think things will get worse over time. There's a lot of good players who aren't seeing the results they had in brawl. Hell there's still players like Anti who hasn't really been to many events.

 

[Smog Frog]

one move makes all the difference between diddy and meta knight:

diddy doesnt have an option that comes anywhere near the level of broken that was. before you could deal with you had to be able to not get shredded by .

 

[Smooth Criminal]

V Sagat was banned in Japan....just saying.

BPC is correct; this never happened. You were scolded for picking Old Sagat because he was such a powerful, scrub-friendly character, but there was never a hard and fast rule that said he was banned. Akuma/Gouki in ST, however, is another matter. He literally broke the game at points (air fireballs, ridiculous unblockable setups, etc). What's-his-name could probably tell you more (@TTTTTsd ). Sim and Gouki was legit 9:1 in ST, wasn't it? Something stupid like that.

As for Diddy "destroying" this game? I'm sorry, but this community is going to kill the game faster than the actual meta will.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Mr. Johan]

had top ground speed, two fast, large, and demanding tilts, one of which converts into a grab, a very fast Smash attack that kills, a Frame 3 Uair that covered his entire hitbox and ended as soon as it started, at least two unpredictable and safe recovery options, an aerial with Montana range and was safe on block, a special move that forced everyone to be terrified of MK sitting in shield, and a special move that he can pull out of Advantage, Neutral, and Disadvantage and 9 times out of 10 get away with it.

has top ground speed, two fast, large, and demanding tilts, one of which converts into a grab, a very fast Smash attack that kills, a Frame 3 Uair that covered his entire hitbox and ended as soon as it started, at least two unpredictable and safe recovery options, an aerial with Montana range and was safe on block, a special move that forced everyone to be terrified of Diddy sitting in shield, a special move that he can pull out of Advantage, Neutral, and Disadvantage and 9 times out of 10 get away with it, and Hoo-Hah.

 

[Smog Frog]

umm...what special move could he pull out of shield? what's his second tilt? you also neglected to mention that meta knight could chase you offstage the the blast line and still make it back in time for dinner. diddy cant do that. also, diddy actually has the 12th fastest running speed, tied with yoshi. not exactly top ground speed. look over your facts before you mention them, and please dont exaggerate to make it seem like diddy is as broken as meta knight, because it isnt ****ing true no matter how you slice it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Crass as they're being, I kind of agree with Smog. Intrinsic character traits aside, the game's engine also keeps the bull**** that was prevalent in Brawl in check. Anybody remember when we had to make rules to accommodate characters hugging the edge all the time? Gliding/running away all the time? I certainly do, and one of MK's greatest strengths was to shaking a leg outta trouble/abusing that ****.

Smooth Criminal

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

umm...what special move could he pull out of shield? what's his second tilt? you also neglected to mention that meta knight could chase you offstage the the blast line and still make it back in time for dinner. diddy cant do that. also, diddy actually has the 12th fastest running speed, tied with yoshi. not exactly top ground speed. look over your facts before you mention them, and please dont exaggerate to make it seem like diddy is as broken as meta knight, because it isnt ****ing true no matter how you slice it.

Diddy flip is what he's talking about.

Honestly I'd rather deal with nado than Diddy's throw game.

 

[Nabbitnator]

can we just time Diddy out with villager? It's not the best way but maybe that can work.

 

[webbedspace]

*z-drops Battering Banana Peel over the ledge*

 

[HeroMystic]

http://www.twitch.tv/newmetastream

Order Tackle Glitch on stream. Full Time.

 

[Pyr]

On the whole Brawl Metaknight vs S4 Diddy situation:

Over the course of Brawl, Metaknight consistently placed higher then all other characters in tournament play so often that he doubled (iirc it was doubled or at least a huge chunk) the overall results of all next best character. Further, he invalidated 14 out of 37 characters (37% of the cast), hard countered 13 others (35% of the cast), and his worst matchup was even. He, at no point past the first year, had a non-even or better matchup with anyone else in the cast. At 2 points he was considered slightly disadvantaged (45:55 snake and diddy at those 2 points), but this was later proven false.

S4 Diddy does not do this currently. He doesn't invalidate that many characters. Until he does, he is no where near ban-worthy.

Also, Tornado wasn't the thing that made Metaknight a ***** to deal with. Shuttle Loop was. Inv on startup, lagless on langing, strong for the initial hit and the glide's hit. Janky hitboxes that gimped more easily then any other move in the game. Usable OOS. Tornado was annoying and useful. Shuttle Loop was godlike. Diddy does not have a shuttle loop.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

On the whole Brawl Metaknight vs S4 Diddy situation:

Over the course of Brawl, Metaknight consistently placed higher then all other characters in tournament play so often that he doubled (iirc it was doubled or at least a huge chunk) the overall results of all next best character. Further, he invalidated 14 out of 37 characters (37% of the cast), hard countered 13 others (35% of the cast), and his worst matchup was even. He, at no point past the first year, had a non-even or better matchup with anyone else in the cast. At 2 points he was considered slightly disadvantaged (45:55 snake and diddy at those 2 points), but this was later proven false.

S4 Diddy does not do this currently. He doesn't invalidate that many characters. Until he does, he is no where near ban-worthy.

Also, Tornado wasn't the thing that made Metaknight a ***** to deal with. Shuttle Loop was. Inv on startup, lagless on langing, strong for the initial hit and the glide's hit. Janky hitboxes that gimped more easily then any other move in the game. Usable OOS. Tornado was annoying and useful. Shuttle Loop was godlike. Diddy does not have a shuttle loop.

While diddy's up B is no SL it can be used for KO's. Let me ask you this since you claim he doesn't invalidate many characters. Who in your top ten does he lose to? Idk who you considee the ten best characters but seriously who does he lose to?

 

[Pyr]

While diddy's up B is no SL it can be used for KO's. Let me ask you this since you claim he doesn't invalidate many characters. Who in your top ten does he lose to? Idk who you considee the ten best characters but seriously who does he lose to?

"Being useful for KOs" in no way comes close to equating Diddy's Up-B to Shuttle Loop

You don't understand. I'm using hard data for my analysis of this comparison.. I have yet to see a matchup in this game go past 70:30 in anyone's favor from my analysis. You start getting to invalidation at 80:20 and worse.

Let me define invalidation in this context: If a singular character from the top winning, top used x characters has a matchup that states that, in 100 games, the top character wins 80 out of those 100 in an even field, that top character invalidates the lesser character. 70:30 is doable, but extremely difficult. That is defined as a hard counter for me.

As of this post, I've yet to see an analysis of a matchup, or see a matchup played out, where it goes beyond ~70:~30, when Diddy is played against anyone else in the cast. Metaknight had 14 80:20 matchups. Diddy doesn't even come close to his power-level.

 

[Blobface]

Would it be accurate to say Kirby is the most true combo oriented character? He already works in like 3-5 attacks into his combos, and customs only improve that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Diddy flip is what he's talking about.

Honestly I'd rather deal with nado than Diddy's throw game.

You really don't.

Granted I played a character that got around nado easily, Lucario, some characters has literally nothing they could do about it.

Literally nothing but a well spaced Fsmash and that was near impossible.

Trust me, he was far far far worse than Diddy is in this game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

"Being useful for KOs" in no way comes close to equating Diddy's Up-B to Shuttle Loop

You don't understand. I'm using hard data for my analysis of this comparison.. I have yet to see a matchup in this game go past 70:30 in anyone's favor from my analysis. You start getting to invalidation at 80:20 and worse.

Let me define invalidation in this context: If a singular character from the top winning, top used x characters has a matchup that states that, in 100 games, the top character wins 80 out of those 100 in an even field, that top character invalidates the lesser character. 70:30 is doable, but extremely difficult. That is defined as a hard counter for me.

As of this post, I've yet to see an analysis of a matchup, or see a matchup played out, where it goes beyond ~70:~30, when Diddy is played against anyone else in the cast. Metaknight had 14 80:20 matchups. Diddy doesn't even come close to his power-level.

Pretty sure Diddy has a couple of 8-2 especially in non customs. The reason for Diddy's MUs not getting those type of numbers are because people are keeping tbem down. The MU discussion aren't really up to date. So the MU's can fall behind. Unless there's a top diddy claiming what his MU's are currently.

Yeah I'm not saying diddy's up B is SL but it has some uses. Which we're probably going to see more as the meta develops. Also I reject the notion that only 8-2 MY's invalidates a character. 7-3 are enough IMHO and he probably beats the majority of the cast like that.

You really don't.

Granted I played a character that got around nado easily, Lucario, some characters has literally nothing they could do about it.

Literally nothing but a well spaced Fsmash and that was near impossible.

Trust me, he was far far far worse than Diddy is in this game.

Some characters had options vs nafo if you played a character that had no options vs nado you that's on you. Compare that to diddy's grab game? Where your only option is dont get grabbed.

Let's try something....how about everyone post their characters MU vs diddy?

 

[Pyr]

Pretty sure Diddy has a couple of 8-2 especially in non customs. The reason for Diddy's MUs not getting those type of numbers are because people are keeping tbem down. The MU discussion aren't really up to date. So the MU's can fall behind. Unless there's a top diddy claiming what his MU's are currently.

Yeah I'm not saying diddy's up B is SL but it has some uses. Which we're probably going to see more as the meta develops. Also I reject the notion that only 8-2 MY's invalidates a character. 7-3 are enough IMHO and he probably beats the majority of the cast like that.

Have you ever played a 7:3 vs an 8:2. I have. 7:3 is hard. It's stressful. It's doable. 8:2 means I will likely lose against an equal, no mater how hard I play in it. 7:3 is not when invalidation begins. A 7:3 matchup won't keep you from at least placing in tournaments if you come across it. An 8:2 will.

Some characters had options vs nafo if you played a character that had no options vs nado you that's on you. Compare that to diddy's grab game? Where your only option is dont get grabbed.

Let's try something....how about everyone post their characters MU vs diddy?

Nado was better then grab. It was disjointed, clashed with everything, was fast, and most things lost to it from any angle.

I can jab and beat a grab if I time it right in this game. I couldn't even punish a properly used tornado in Brawl. So, when compared to Diddy's grab game, Nado wins hands down.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Some characters had options vs nafo if you played a character that had no options vs nado you that's on you. Compare that to diddy's grab game? Where your only option is dont get grabbed.

Let's try something....how about everyone post their characters MU vs diddy?

You can punish a grab, you can't punish a well used tornado. Everyone can do something vs a grab, some character had literally nothing against nado.

It was that good.

That's not even counting the other aspects MK had with the spacing, juggling, amazing recovery, while not the best still solid kill power.

Diddy has some weaknesses, or at east something he isn't the best in, Metaknight had loads of options on top of his pros that made him that best in loads of aerials.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Have you ever played a 7:3 vs an 8:2. I have. 7:3 is hard. It's stressful. It's doable. 8:2 means I will likely lose against an equal, no mater how hard I play in it. 7:3 is not when invalidation begins. A 7:3 matchup won't keep you from at least placing in tournaments if you come across it. An 8:2 will.



Nado was better then grab. It was disjointed, clashed with everything, was fast, and most things lost to it from any angle.

I can jab and beat a grab if I time it right in this game. I couldn't even punish a properly used tornado in Brawl. So, when compared to Diddy's grab game, Nado wins hands down.

Yes I've played several 7-3 MU'S and I've played 8-2 MUS before. It's really not that big of a difference. As for Nado some characters had options vs it. Damn I guess you just olved the diddy problem run around and jab. Also what about characters who jab is slower than Diddy's grab? Guess they're just screwed eh?

You can punish a grab, you can't punish a well used tornado. Everyone can do something vs a grab, some character had literally nothing against nado.

It was that good.

That's not even counting the other aspects MK had with the spacing, juggling, amazing recovery, while not the best still solid kill power.

Diddy has some weaknesses, or at east something he isn't the best in, Metaknight had loads of options on top of his pros that made him that best in loads of aerials.

Yes Diddys only option isn't grab. However, the strength of his grab game can't be understated. While you're describing MK I can't help but wonder if you're not describing diddy. I know diddy's revovery isn't great. However if you mix it up like Zero did vs dabuz it becomes ridiculously hard to gimp him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

.....


Yes I've played several 7-3 MU'S and I've played 8-2 MUS before. It's really not that big of a difference. As for Nado some characters had options vs it. Damn I guess you just olved the diddy problem run around and jab. Also what about characters who jab is slower than Diddy's grab? Guess they're just screwed eh?

You outspace it, spot dodge, jump, walk backwards, you beat it out with a smash attack/tilt/aerial. There is a lot you an do vs someone going for a grab.

vs nado.

Fsmash it spaced perfectly and hold your shield. That's all some characters had.

I'm lucky Lucario had transcendent priority so half his moveset could beat it out. A lot of character had nothing vs him outside of the above or some niche special move, Snake nade, Falco laser, etc.

It was far far worse for the cast when Metaknight's nado was around on top of his loads of other options he had.