Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

That gets broken by DI, right?

Also, just as a heads up I don't know about other characters but at least Sheik and ZSS (assuming I'm not just doing things horribly wrong...?) can generally get things (tilts, grabs, etc) off of jab cancelling... but it's not true; the followups can be avoided. It's a nice setup to mix things up and punish, though.

On rosa jab up b is guaranteed with zss.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Is there a list or something on characters that can Jab cancel and ones that can effectively Jab cancel into stuff? So far, most people know about Fox and Link if more people would use him... Anyway, there's also Sheik, Triple D, Luigi, Falco, Ike, Palutena, Samus who apparently has a tip on it, ZSS?, and apparently DK, Rosalina, and Greninja as well. Also, Sonic and Captain Falcon might be able to which might be moot for the Capt. since his Gentleman Jab is good, but considering he could possibly hit confirm to other moves is pretty awesome.

Edit: Add Toon Link to that which makes sense since well... yeah...

Mii brawler can jab jab into grab or even a helicopter kick or read smash.

Bowser can jab-Dtilt at higher percents against some characters (needs exact testing) and can jab grab after conditioning the shield with dtilt.

Olimar can jab jab grab at low percents, I've seen VGBC Logic and Dabuz to it.

I haven't looked at the other miis, but they might be able to do something fancy out of jab.

 

[Nobie]

Seeing Diddy in tournaments and thinking about ESAM's Heavy Skull Bash punish on MVD's Diddy recently, I think a lot of Diddy players are accustomed to being able to press buttons in the air and get away with it because of the insane hitboxes on his aerials. As more custom moves are found that can deal with that sort of thing, it's probably going to require Diddy players to be a lot more careful.

 

[Blobface]

Seeing Diddy in tournaments and thinking about ESAM's Heavy Skull Bash punish on MVD's Diddy recently, I think a lot of Diddy players are accustomed to being able to press buttons in the air and get away with it because of the insane hitboxes on his aerials. As more custom moves are found that can deal with that sort of thing, it's probably going to require Diddy players to be a lot more careful.

I'll have to test if Ganondorf can Dark Fists out of Diddy's combos. Considering how he combos you upward usually, Dark Fists would kill at like 40% off a counter.

The idea of that makes any Ganon smile

 

[Smog Frog]

zero flyin through the air, swingin from vine to vine

 

[Blobface]

It seems Link's jab infinite was drastically overestimated. A link just lost a match from ahead because he was fishing too hard for the infinite instead of... doing anything else. It still has usage as a setup, but it's use as an infinite is limited.

 

[Ffamran]

It seems Link's jab infinite was drastically overestimated. A link just lost a match from ahead because he was fishing too hard for the infinite instead of... doing anything else. It still has usage as a setup, but it's use as an infinite is limited.

Fishing for anything deserves punishment. Link's infinite jab is great and all, but I'd rather Jab to Down Smash or something more reliable.

@Amazing Ampharos, Charizard's Jab to Utilt won't work since it's too close and too vertical while Up Smash and Fly can catch, but it's shorter than going into tilts, Side and Down Smash, Rock Smash, Jab again, or even Flamethrower and Flare Blitz. Up Smash and Fly might catch larger characters like Bowser.

Also, like what Sinister Slush did, it'd be cool if gifs or videos can be provided for Jab cancels. While they're possible, not having proof makes it seem hollow sort of like before Lavani made a gif of Falco doing Fast Fire Bird slide and me yammering about how cools Falco's Fast Fire Bird was.

 

[Blobface]

People have said before that Palutena's B-air and Dash Attack beat out everything. Is this true, and why?

 

[Lavani]

People have said before that Palutena's B-air and Dash Attack beat out everything. Is this true, and why?

Both attacks have invincibility frames on them, yes. I'm not 100% on the specifics - dash attack seems to be full body invuln while bair is partial around her shield - but they are quite capable of beating more or less anything.

not having proof makes it seem hollow sort of like before Lavani made a gif

well okay

 

[Smog Frog]

yes, because shield

 

[Ffamran]

I checked Ness's Jab again and yeah, probably not as safe as Dtilting to something else. There's a noticeable delay and there's not a lot of hit stun, but does it work? Yeah, pretty much like how Bowser Jr. or Fox's work where you can do stuff out of Jab, but how fast depends on the character with Ness being more like Bowser Jr. It's still something you can do to mixup Jabs, but it's not as reliable as Fox, Luigi, Sheik, Link, Triple D, or Toon Link's.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja can use jab 1 or jab 1 + 2 and then Dtilt, dash attack or dash grab for some useful combos. At high percents he can even do jab 1 + 2 -> Fsmash. These aren't true jab cancels though AFAIK. Am I correct in thinking a true jab cancel is where you can cancel your jab into a crouch (and usually other stuff, like shield, specials and even other attacks) but there's an extended window where pressing A again will cause you to do the next jab? This is exactly how Link's jab cancel works, for example. You can do jab 1 and then crouch after say 10 frames, but if you don't crouch and press A again within say 20 frames, you'll do jab 2, even though you could have cancelled into something else.

I ask because Greninja doesn't have that, if that indeed is a true jab cancel. You just have to wait for the jab 2 animation to finish. Pressing A again will cause him to do jab 1 afterward. In this game though it seems rare for characters to have true jab cancels in the same way as Link. Way rarer than Brawl, at any rate.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Ffamran @TTTTTsd @ HeroMystic

I didn't test extensively but I confirmed not long ago that Doc's jab cancel (which is far superior to Mario's due to better knockback and angle on all hits) breaks about neutral on hit (or maybe +1) vs most characters, but against characters like G&W, Jigglypuff, Little Mac, Pit/Dark Pit, Rosalina, Duck Hunt, and maybe some other characters I'm forgetting at this instant, you can hit confirm 2 Jabs -> Up-B if the only action your opponent does is buffer shield. It's a juggle setup, as opposed to a true combo, much like most Brawl Jab cancels that weren't Link's.

HeroMystic is correct that Mario's Jab cancel is generally speaking negative on hit vs everyone, even when you sweetspot the fist hit.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Ok aftershock viewers, we just saw the last doubles game between Zero+Dabuz and Dakpo+Denti. Zero played fox and dabuz played olimar. Dabuz throws pikmin to zero and zero uses amplified reflector. This is the result: http://youtu.be/IMMxmMVO9gA

I'm sure some of you have seen this before, but now it had been used in tournament, to win grand finals. Apparently, TOs agreed to test it out to see if it was ban worthy, and based on Zero and Dabuz's results, I think it is.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Your in-game options are rather simple
Counter, Reflector, Super Armor, and kill Olimar. Oh and some grabs will seperate Oli from Pikmin to allow them to be destroyed but w/e.
The Success of that being suspect.

 

[Trieste SP]

Perhaps you could use a character that has a reflector like Falco ?

I still think it's ban worthy.

 

[Gunla]

Ok aftershock viewers, we just saw the last doubles game between Zero+Dabuz and Dakpo+Denti. Zero played fox and dabuz played olimar. Dabuz throws pikmin to zero and zero uses amplified reflector. This is the result: http://youtu.be/IMMxmMVO9gA

I'm sure some of you have seen this before, but now it had been used in tournament, to win grand finals. Apparently, TOs agreed to test it out to see if it was ban worthy, and based on Zero and Dabuz's results, I think it is.

I recall seeing this a while ago when it was first discovered.

Gfycat of the move in question.

It's a particularly game-breaking technique, and I definitely think that, after seeing that match, it definitely is something that should be looked at for a ban of sorts in doubles. It may be oddly specific, but seeing it in use is particularly obscene as it can easily kill, even with the fact that it needs to mostly be uninterrupted.

 

[Lavani]

All things considered, that was a rather close match even with the glitch. Olimar and Fox both need time uninterrupted to set it up, and pikmin die pretty easily.

Don't get me wrong, it's janky as hell, but it didn't lead to the kind of landslide victory I was expecting.

 

[Firefoxx]

Custom doubles is filled with strong combos, that's kind of the point of the format. D1 and Blink were freaking out about it, and its clearly very strong, but it doesn't seem crazy broken. At least, not after one showing in a high level match.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm pretty convinced they were just vehement in showcasing the glitch since they had that match in the bag (and they had 2 more games AND another set as a buffer).

That said, while I'm usually in a "innocent until guilty" mindset when it comes to banning things, I've never saw any merit to keeping this for whatever reason, and that was before this match.

 

[Locke 06]

I think it was called "Cocaine logic?"

If this wasn't in the game, and someone proposed it, would everyone consider them insane?

999% damage should never happen.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Or the Link should have you know... stopped sucking and actually played the fighting game part of the game.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I noticed that a couple of times they were able to stop Dabuz from finishing the glitch by hitting him before he could use Order Tackle. It actually cost Zero his last stock from the looks of it.

But yeah, that was clearly pretty nuts, quite similar to the Pikachu + G&W team on 3DS.

 

[Teshie U]

Much like Villager's nonsense, there is alot of stuff you can do to prevent it by staying on top of these characters (olimar is especially weak to this anyway).

I do hate counter abuse in doubles though.

 

[Ffamran]

WOO! Hell yeah! Falco's KO percents are done!

Spoiler

Tested on Pit because he, Dark Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer are closer to the middle in terms of weight while Mario's slightly lighter heavier - I could have used Luigi, Villager, or middleweight Mii - at center stage on FD/Omega stages on the 3DS. Moves that don't kill include Blaster, Explosive Blaster, Burst Blaster, Falco Phase, Fast Fire Bird, Reflector at center stage, and Accele-Reflector. The stupidest thing is Falco's Side Smash where there's a hitbox on his body while his arms slam down and arc over him. I am not going to attempt to hit with that since Uair and Down Smash's body (and head) hit is easier to land than a skinny pheasant's torso.

Move|KO percents
Rapid Jab Finisher|383%
Dash Attack|210% or 305% (Late HIt)
Utilt|168% (Final Hit) or 169% (Late Hit)
Ftilt|232%
Dtilt|137% (Body), 172% (Tail), 207% (Tail End)
Up Smash|130% (Fully connects), 138% (Second Hit)
Side Smash|113% (Hand), 121% (Elbow), ??? (Body), or 200% (Late)
Down Smash|151% (Legs) or 200% (Body)
Nair|255% (Final Hit)
Uair|162% (Legs) or 872% (Body)
Fair|200% (Final Hit)
Fair Landing|192%
Bair|120% or 241% (Late Hit)
Dair|249% (Spike Hit/No tech on stage) or 259% (Late Hit)
U-throw|187% (If Laser Hits) or 270% (Throw)
F-throw|311%
B-throw|307% (Laser misses at center meaning it's just the throw that kills at center)
D-throw|380%
Falco Phantasm|469%
Falco Phantasm (Aerial)|301% (Ground Target)
Falco Charge|175% (Close) or 760% (Spaced)
Fire Bird|470% (Final Hit)
Distant Fire Bird|409% (Pointblank Hit)
Reflector Void|230%

Edit: Reading charts is hard.

 

[Smog Frog]

lol @ no move koing below 110%

falco needs to hit the gym

 

[Ffamran]

lol @ no move koing below 110%

falco needs to hit the gym

Well, it's on Pit and center stage. I think Falco's main strength is damage over raw killing power and maybe some knockback? I don't know how to show knockback and have everyone understand. Also, at least Falco kills at a fair percentage unlike other characters *cough*Luma Uair juggling and killing DK at 22% even though it was a high ceiling stage, Halberd*cough*. Here's Falco's damage output.

Spoiler

Move|Damage
Jab 1|3%
Jab 2|2%
Rapid Jab|1% each
Rapid Jab Finisher|3%
Minimal Jab Combo|3% + 2% + 1% (x4) + 3; 12%
Dash Attack|9% or 6% (Late HIt)
Utilt|4% or 3% + 5%; 9% or 8%
Ftilt|9%
Dtilt|12% (Body), 11% (Tail), or 9% (Tail End Disjoint)
Up Smash|4% + 12%; 16% - he has one of the weakest Smashes in the game if the first hit screws up linking into the second hit
Side Smash|15% or 10%
Down Smash|15% or 12%
Nair|3% + 3% + 2% + 4%; 12%
Uair|11%
Fair|1% + 1% + 1% + 1% + 4%; 8%
Fair Landing|5%
Bair|13% or 7% (Late Hit)
Dair|13% or 8% (Late Hit)
Pummel|2%
U-throw|4% + 4% (Laser); 8%
F-throw|3% + 3%; 6% (Throw) and 4% (Splash Damage)
B-throw|6% + 3% (Laser); 9%
D-throw|3% + 3% (Laser); 6%
Blaster|3%
Explosive Blaster|0% + 1% + 2%; 3%
Burst Blaster|2% or 1% (Far hit)
Falco Phantasm|7%
Falco Phantasm (Aerial)|7% (Ground Target) or 6% (Air Target)
Falco Phase|0% - gee, I wonder why?
Falco Charge|12% (Close) or 4% (Spaced)
Fire Bird|2% (x7) + 3% + 2% (x7) + 2%; 33% - hella unreliable
Fast Fire Bird|2%
Distant Fire Bird|8% or 2% (x15); 30% (spaced and also unreliable)
Reflector|5%
Accele-Reflector|2%
Reflector Void|9%

Edit: Typed "Utilt" instead of "Uair" for the Luma thing.

 

[Lavani]

*cough*Luma Utilt juggling and killing DK at 22% even though it was a high ceiling stage, Halberd*cough*.

Halberd has the lowest ceiling of the legal stages, to my knowledge.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Might as well use Bowser/D3. I don't understand the appeal of using a metric where approx half the cast dies and half the cast doesn't. If you're going to leave uncertainties, Might as well say *everyone is definitely dead at this point* as far as generalizing goes, but maybe that's just me.

Also since when is Pit heavier then Mario? The Mid weight of the cast should be Mario/Villager anyways.
/nitpicky.

 

[Ffamran]

Halberd has the lowest ceiling of the legal stages, to my knowledge.

But it was DK! He's a giant gorilla! And Luma's knockback is freaking ludicrous. I could be at 40% and Luma would send me close to the blast zone with any character. That's absolute BS. If anyone who should be doing that, it should be Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Bowser, DK, or even Ike and Mega Man with Mega Upper. Hell, let's add Marth's tipper hits too.

Might as well use Bowser/D3. I don't understand the appeal of using a metric where approx half the cast dies and half the cast doesn't. If you're going to leave uncertainties, Might as well say *everyone is definitely dead at this point* as far as generalizing goes, but maybe that's just me.

Also since when is Pit heavier then Mario? The Mid weight of the cast should be Mario/Villager anyways.
/nitpicky.

Blame the game; don't blame me.

The Pits and Wii Fit are tied for 26 out of the 52 current characters and well, Shulk and his Monado Arts. I could have used "Min Weight Mii" or Luigi who are tied for 25 if you don't consider Miis as individual characters making it 25 out of 50 characters and Shulk and his Monado Arts shenanigans. What's weird is that the KO percents sometimes were lower or higher on Pit than on @Thinkaman's data dump thing which had Mario as the dummy. So, it's an average and I may or may not add in Bowser and Jigglypuff KO percent data, but that would get messy. If I used Bower in the beginning, we'd get "LOL Falco can't kill anything" even if I mentioned that Bowser was the dummy.

DISCLAIMER: Kirby won't be considered for testing with Monado arts until Wii U version and even then potentially won't be tested. Stop asking.

Being me, I've decided to rank each character by how much they weigh. Pretty much done. Not sure if Jump or Smash stance shulk change weight but he doesn't use those stances so I can't test it until I get the English copy of the game.

Rank | Character | Weight
1 | Extreme 盾 (Shield) Stance Shulk | 189*
2 | 盾 (Shield) Stance Shulk | 146*
3 | Koopa | 128
4 | DK | 122
5 | Dedede | 119
6-7 | Charizard | 115
6-7 | Bowser Jr. | 115
8 | Ganondorf | 112
9 | Samus | 108
10-11 | Ike | 107
10-11 | Wario | 107
12 | Robot | 106
13-15 | Captain Falcon | 104
13-15 | Link | 104
13-15 | Yoshi | 104
16-18 | Shulk | 102
16-18 | Max Weight Mii | 102
16-18 | Megaman | 102
19 | Default Weight Mii | 100
20 | Lucario | 99
21-22 | Dr. Mario | 98
21-22 | Mario | 98
23-25 | Villager | 97
23-25 | Min Weight Mii | 97
23-25 | Luigi | 97
26-28 | Wii Fit Trainer | 96
26-28 | Dark Pit | 96
26-28 | Pit | 96
29-31 | Robin | 95
29-31 | Sonic | 95
29-31 | Pacman | 95
32-33 | Frog | 94
32-33 | Ness | 94
34-35 | Toon Link | 93
34-35 | Diddy Kong | 93
36-37 | Palutena | 91
36-37 | Duck Hunt | 91
38-39 | Lucina | 90
38-39 | Marth | 90
40 | 撃 (Smash) Stance Shulk | 89.5
41 | Petch | 89
42-43 | Zelda | 85
42-43 | Sheik | 85
44-45 | Little Mac | 82
44-45 | Falco | 82
46 | Zero Suit Samus | 81
47 | Meta Knight | 80
48-50 | Fox | 79
48-50 | Olimar | 79
48-50 | Pikachu | 79
51 | Rosalina | 78
52 | Kirby | 77
53 | G&W | 75
54 | Jigglypuff | 68
55 | Extreme 撃 (Smash) Stance Shulk | 67

*Monado Art Weights accurate to ~1 point either side.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

But it was DK! He's a giant gorilla! And Luma's knockback is freaking ludicrous. I could be at 40% and Luma would send me close to the blast zone with any character. That's absolute BS. If anyone who should be doing that, it should be Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Bowser, DK, or even Ike and Mega Man with Mega Upper. Hell, let's add Marth's tipper hits too.

Are you referring specifically to Luma's utilt having ludicrous knockback? Yes, it has extremely high base knockback but not a lot of knockback growth. So, it's almost never going to kill below 100% unless Rosalina has 150% rage or she's on a high platform. It having absurd knockback is therefore not a problem. It's only...questionable when he hits someone charging a smash attack and kills at 20%, but that's a very specific and rare circumstamce

 

[Unknownkid]

But it was DK! He's a giant gorilla! And Luma's knockback is freaking ludicrous. I could be at 40% and Luma would send me close to the blast zone with any character. That's absolute BS. If anyone who should be doing that, it should be Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Bowser, DK, or even Ike and Mega Man with Mega Upper. Hell, let's add Marth's tipper hits too.


Blame the game; don't blame me.

The Pits and Wii Fit are tied for 26 out of the 52 current characters and well, Shulk and his Monado Arts. I could have used "Min Weight Mii" or Luigi who are tied for 25 if you don't consider Miis as individual characters making it 25 out of 50 characters and Shulk and his Monado Arts shenanigans. What's weird is that the KO percents sometimes were lower or higher on Pit than on @Thinkaman's data dump thing which had Mario as the dummy. So, it's an average and I may or may not add in Bowser and Jigglypuff KO percent data, but that would get messy. If I used Bower in the beginning, we'd get "LOL Falco can't kill anything" even if I mentioned that Bowser was the dummy.

Umm based on the chart, Mario is heavier than Pit, Ffamran.

 

[HeroMystic]

Are you referring specifically to Luma's utilt having ludicrous knockback? Yes, it has extremely high base knockback but not a lot of knockback growth. So, it's almost never going to kill below 100% unless Rosalina has 150% rage or she's on a high platform. It having absurd knockback is therefore not a problem. It's only...questionable when he hits someone charging a smash attack and kills at 20%, but that's a very specific and rare circumstamce

U-air, not U-tilt.

https://youtu.be/NXi5-_-YeoE?t=1013

I'm sure @ Ffamran is referring to this even though he said U-tilt.

 

[Ffamran]

Umm based on the chart, Mario is heavier than Pit, Ffamran.

I was looking for someone in the middle of the weight ranking and DAMN IT! I read the chart wrong. Reading's hard.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

U-air, not U-tilt.

https://youtu.be/NXi5-_-YeoE?t=1013

I'm sure @ Ffamran is referring to this even though he said U-tilt.

Oh, then in that case, yeah uair killing at 30-40% is dumb

 

[warriorman222]

I was looking for someone in the middle of the weight ranking and DAMN IT! I read the chart wrong. Reading's hard.

Diddy Kong. What a surpirse, the tawp teer is the best candidate for kill percent testing.

EDIT Ohwait that's assuming you remove all miis, and all buffed Shulks and Kirbies.

 

[Unknownkid]

Oh, then in that case, yeah uair killing at 30-40% is dumb

I will take your 30-40% and lower to 22% on DK - http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky/b/637316422?t=6h11m32s

 

[Blobface]

I think we can safely say:

ALWAYS BAN HALBERD AGAINST ROSALINA.

 

[thehard]

Wow, Dabuz really downloaded Denti over the course of 2 days. 3-0'd

 

[Ffamran]

I think we can safely say:
ALWAYS BAN HALBERD AGAINST ROSALINA.

Then you play on Duck Hunt and you get hit by a Side Smash.