Character Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

the solution? make dream land custom stage.

 

[Jaxas]

the solution? make dream land custom stage.

Or just go to Kongo, the stage with Dream Land blast zones!

 

[thehard]

I think Dabuz is improving in the Rosa/Diddy matchup!

 

[Smog Frog]

dabuz maybe adapted to diddy but zero is in 20xx

 

[HeroMystic]

I think Dabuz is improving in the Rosa/Diddy matchup!

That one isn't vs Diddy, but rather vs Zero. As for Diddy in general, I feel Dabuz has it down, but he's definitely playing at a disadvantage with Rosalina as his main.

And it looks like he's giving up on Olimar being his weapon vs Diddy. He didn't use him vs Denti at all.

 

[RWB]

ZeRo is just an absolute steamroller of a player... and a joy to watch. Fast, aggressive and near immaculate in his spacing.

 

[Unknownkid]

So once again, Default Diddy won a Custom Tournament. You know, those custom moves with all the jank. No seriously... where is the jank? Do I need to wait for EVO to see some serious janky stuff or something? Am I the only person that despise the word/term "Jank"?

 

[HeavyLobster]

No seriously... where is the jank?

The jank is yellow and slippery and in Diddy's hand.

 

[Unknownkid]

The jank is yellow and slippery and in Diddy's hand.

We already know what Diddy, Rosalina and Palutena can do. I want new Jank damn!

http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction DKwill vs Jtails. Custom Tournament.

 

[Locke 06]

So once again, Default Diddy won a Custom Tournament. You know, those custom moves with all the jank. No seriously... where is the jank? Do I need to wait for EVO to see some serious janky stuff or something? Am I the only person that despise the word/term "Jank"?

Just because dumb things aren't winning (streamed) tournaments doesn't make them any less dumb.

Also, while jank is a weird term, it is 100x better than hooha or halleluha.

 

[thehard]

Well, I hate "dumb" and "silly" as terms as well, so what does that make me?

 

[Locke 06]

Well, I hate "dumb" and "silly" as terms as well, so what does that make me?

An English major Someone who wants people on the internet to fully utilize the descriptive capabilities of the English language.

I wish more customs were MU specific side-grades instead of almost strict upgrades.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

I wish more customs were MU specific side-grades instead of almost strict upgrades.

Honestly a lot of them are. The number of moves that are "strict upgrades" is fairly small, whereas the matchup-specific stuff is far more prevalent IMO. I may be bringing Kong Cyclone against almost everyone, but I'm bringing Hot Slap if I'm against a Kirby or other floaties over normal Ground Slam.

 

[Djent]

Well this tourney corroborated my thoughts about how has a horrid MU, and that she doesn't belong anywhere near top tier as a result.

 

[thehard]

An English major Someone who wants people on the internet to fully utilize the descriptive capabilities of the English language.

I wish more customs were MU specific side-grades instead of almost strict upgrades.

Lol, it's partly that and partly that I think if you, as a competitor, get it in your mind that X is unfair or "shouldn't be in the game" you're forming a mental block that could impede progress as a player. "Silly" is the first term people jump to when they see a dominant tactic or an unexpected early kill or something. And that's silly. It proliferates a culture of Junior Balance Cadets who think they know the game and all the decisions put into making it, and serves to stifle productive discussion.

There's also the lingering fear that something will get banned purely for being "silly", but so far the Smash community has a pretty good handle on that.

 

[HeroMystic]

There's also the lingering fear that something will get banned purely for being "silly", but so far the Smash community has a pretty good handle on that.

No we don't.

 

[thehard]

No we don't.

Comparatively.

 

[HeroMystic]

Diddy has a banana that pops you in the air yet everyone says Default Diddy is best?

 

[Jaxas]

Diddy has a banana that pops you in the air yet everyone says Default Diddy is best?

Battering Bananna can't be used for JCIT->Fsmash is the main reason, I think

 

[Unknownkid]

Battering Bananna can't be used for JCIT->Fsmash is the main reason, I think

Not only that... Battering Banana goes up higher on startup meaning more chances your opponent can punish you or take the banana.

 

[Shaya]

Ninjalink just knocked out by Ltails, a relatively unknown Hawaiian(?) Diddy.
I think this character was slated to be fine as a top tier, even maybe not being the best in the game in the mid to long term.

But Up throw Up air breaks diddy completely. It's why he's the strongest, custom meta or not.
It's about to be DEHF/Larry vs Ltails in grand finals.
http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction

 

[HeroMystic]

The fact that U-throw to U-air is guaranteed changes everything.

Larry Lurr wrecked him though.

 

[Firefoxx]

That was domination by Larry. Did Lt just miss the timing/percent for upthrow-upair in the last game or does it not work on Fox?

 

[Shaya]

Too much rage on Diddy perhaps, or he messed it up.
But 100% diddy on 60% fox was stupidly close to definitely being real, and it would've killed.

I know personally larry has spent probably more hours than anyone trying to DI Diddy's ****. He was going to pick up Pikachu for a while because Pika avoids guaranteed dthrow follow ups really early, but then gave up when he realised that DI meant death by up throw. Pika's aerial mobility and fast fall speeds put him in a really stupid pickle when sent 90 degrees, for dthrow he has bair/nair as solid combo-breakers.

 

[David Viran]

I'm pretty sure rage really screws with diddy's uthrow.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Well this tourney corroborated my thoughts about how has a horrid MU, and that she doesn't belong anywhere near top tier as a result.

I still think she is up there but not like top 5 or something.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So once again, Default Diddy won a Custom Tournament. You know, those custom moves with all the jank. No seriously... where is the jank? Do I need to wait for EVO to see some serious janky stuff or something? Am I the only person that despise the word/term "Jank"?

Actually, this really was bothering me. After ADHD honestly did so well being an under trained custom Villager, why didn't some people just plain pick it up to try to cruise early bracket? I hear custom DK is kinda wack, why aren't folks choosing it and going for the gimmick? Most of these gimmicks are easy enough to pick up and work with minimal effort, why don't people use them?

I've seen a ton of people especially in online tournaments go DK in customs environments JUST for this reason. Online is obviously not a live event by any means, but why aren't players to to be more... jerkish? Is there the possibility "honor" of some kind is stopping folks from really trying to exploit things?

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm pretty sure rage really screws with diddy's uthrow.

Rage changes the percent range but it doesn't change the fact that the range still exists. ZeRo used this on Rosalina even with high rage multiple times and it worked almost every time.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Nobody wants to try new things. New things don't win money, Diddy wins money.

I hope I'm wrong though. Really, I do.

 

[Firefoxx]

Actually, this really was bothering me. After ADHD honestly did so well being an under trained custom Villager, why didn't some people just plain pick it up to try to cruise early bracket? I hear custom DK is kinda wack, why aren't folks choosing it and going for the gimmick? Most of these gimmicks are easy enough to pick up and work with minimal effort, why don't people use them?

I've seen a ton of people especially in online tournaments go DK in customs environments JUST for this reason. Online is obviously not a live event by any means, but why aren't players to to be more... jerkish? Is there the possibility "honor" of some kind is stopping folks from really trying to exploit things?

ZeRo/Dabuz only went Fox/Olimar in the last game of doubles to show off that order pikmin tackle glitch so... maybe? I mean, they were going to win regardless of their strat, but that team may have won easier just from the WTF factor.

The announcers mentioned that some players (like Calm Animal) didn't want to use custom loadouts until they were 100% sure they had them down. Maybe its a little of both? It is weird though

 

[David Viran]

Rage changes the percent range but it doesn't change the fact that the range still exists. ZeRo used this on Rosalina even with high rage multiple times and it worked almost every time.

It might make it smaller. It's hard to tell we must lab this crap.

@ LiteralGrill it might be that they want to use there main that they put hours into. ADHD said he had already been training with villager for a month.

 

[Shaya]

Actually, this really was bothering me. After ADHD honestly did so well being an under trained custom Villager, why didn't some people just plain pick it up to try to cruise early bracket? I hear custom DK is kinda wack, why aren't folks choosing it and going for the gimmick? Most of these gimmicks are easy enough to pick up and work with minimal effort, why don't people use them?

I've seen a ton of people especially in online tournaments go DK in customs environments JUST for this reason. Online is obviously not a live event by any means, but why aren't players to to be more... jerkish? Is there the possibility "honor" of some kind is stopping folks from really trying to exploit things?

Every top player knows that attitude of being a jerk/proving something's bad is NOT healthy for the game. But they can't ever say "this is bad and shouldn't be legal" because then they'll get the white-wash-wave treatment. Brawl has given many players a lot of valuable lessons.
People who are using Smash4 as a source of income/livelihood aren't going to estrange themselves from potential followers by being considered a "lamer" or "strategy abuser". Social media influences hides the true nature of this game/any tactic you "read about".

These strategies aren't necessarily overpowered, the better player will continue to win. However, why develop your Donkey Kong or Villager when there is little gain to it at this stage and in the long run absolutely no gain whatsoever (Evo is the possible exception, money talks, bull**** walks)? Who wants to be known as the Villager good enough to beat the top caste with a near purely-time out strategy? No one has been jaded enough by the game to go down that path yet.

 

[HeroMystic]

Actually, this really was bothering me. After ADHD honestly did so well being an under trained custom Villager, why didn't some people just plain pick it up to try to cruise early bracket? I hear custom DK is kinda wack, why aren't folks choosing it and going for the gimmick? Most of these gimmicks are easy enough to pick up and work with minimal effort, why don't people use them?

I've seen a ton of people especially in online tournaments go DK in customs environments JUST for this reason. Online is obviously not a live event by any means, but why aren't players to to be more... jerkish? Is there the possibility "honor" of some kind is stopping folks from really trying to exploit things?

I play Mario. His strongest gimmick is HP FLUDD kills at the edge of the stage. I tried it out, didn't like the fact that HP FLUDD takes so long to charge (and against fast characters this is detrimental) and switched back to Scalding which is superior, and not a gimmick.

I don't play DK, Pikachu, Sonic, or Villager. These gimmicks aren't worth anything to me, and they shouldn't be relied on to win a tournament.

You don't see hundreds of players doing these "jerk" strats because they know it won't allow them to win. It'll catch people off guard, of course, but after that the incentive is gone. Now you wasted time abusing one strategy when you could've just went in with the character(s) you've invested in.

 

[Dre89]

ZeRo/Dabuz only went Fox/Olimar in the last game of doubles to show off that order pikmin tackle glitch so... maybe? I mean, they were going to win regardless of their strat, but that team may have won easier just from the WTF factor.

The announcers mentioned that some players (like Calm Animal) didn't want to use custom loadouts until they were 100% sure they had them down. Maybe its a little of both? It is weird though

If you're not a fundamentally good player and you use custom DK for the jank against people who know the MU (AKA everyone in a few months if customs are legalised) you will get destroyed. KC is seriously overhyped. Using it anytime other than recovering to the ledge or frame trapping characters with bad landing options (or are too close to the ground to use mobility options like sidebs and b reverses) is incredibly unsafe. Seriously the reward isn't even that good unless they're at KO percents and it's fresh/you have rage. It also may be DIable seeing as sometimes people just get windboxed out without taking any damage.

Yes it's a good move, and it's probably the go-to upb in customs. But there's still the trade-off of losing early SA frames (this might only be on the ground though, not sure about the air) and it now being mediocre OOS. He's still an abusable heavy and the only thing that's less exploitable about him in customs is his recovery.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

So once again, Default Diddy won a Custom Tournament. You know, those custom moves with all the jank. No seriously... where is the jank? Do I need to wait for EVO to see some serious janky stuff or something? Am I the only person that despise the word/term "Jank"?

The jank is yellow and slippery and in Diddy's hand.

But Up throw Up air breaks diddy completely. It's why he's the strongest, custom meta or not.

The fact that U-throw to U-air is guaranteed changes everything.

Nobody wants to try new things. New things don't win money, Diddy wins money.

I hope I'm wrong though. Really, I do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21YVXoHDuU

Smash 4 meta in a peanut shell.

 

[Dre89]

I'm pretty sure that there's only like a 20% range on most characters where uthrow-uair is guaranteed to land and KO (think it stops around 80%-90 for most characters).

It's obnoxious but I suppose people could do what people used to do Brawl Falco and just run away and eat lazers and aerials at early percents to get out of chaingrab percent range.

20% is about 2 or 3 Diddy aerials. It's stupid that you have to do that but I guess it's something. He can't kill with any of his aerials at that percent anyway unless it's uair close to the celing.

 

[Blobface]

An English major Someone who wants people on the internet to fully utilize the descriptive capabilities of the English language.

I wish more customs were MU specific side-grades instead of almost strict upgrades.

The amount of customs that are strict upgrades is very small. Every custom is designed with some sort of drawback, and the only reason that a "optimal" custom comes up sometimes is that the drawback is minor compared to the reward. Even the really really good customs like Dark Fists and Kong Cyclone have drawbacks (loss of a grab + lower speed and less damage respectively). It's just that what they get from these customs is so much greater than what's taken away.

So once again, Default Diddy won a Custom Tournament. You know, those custom moves with all the jank. No seriously... where is the jank? Do I need to wait for EVO to see some serious janky stuff or something? Am I the only person that despise the word/term "Jank"?

Actually, this really was bothering me. After ADHD honestly did so well being an under trained custom Villager, why didn't some people just plain pick it up to try to cruise early bracket? I hear custom DK is kinda wack, why aren't folks choosing it and going for the gimmick? Most of these gimmicks are easy enough to pick up and work with minimal effort, why don't people use them?

I've seen a ton of people especially in online tournaments go DK in customs environments JUST for this reason. Online is obviously not a live event by any means, but why aren't players to to be more... jerkish? Is there the possibility "honor" of some kind is stopping folks from really trying to exploit things?

I'm beginning to think it's impossible for a custom to be "jank" outside of blatant coding errors/oversights.(Wall of text approaching)

Think about every single "this custom is so good it completely redefines this character" custom. To name a few: Dark Fists, Kong Cyclone, Crescent Slash, Close Combat + Tempest.

All of these have something in common: They patch up the characters weakness.

Dark Fists prevents characters from skewing Ganon's incredibly important high risk:high reward playstyle. It makes him harder to gimp, makes him harder to combo, and gives him an excellent defensive punish off a read.

Donkey Kong imo is meant to be "the heavy with the good neutral", but against over-caffeinated contortionists like Sheik, his neutral is just not good enough, and unlike other heavies he doesn't have near enough reward to make up for it. Kong Cyclone, however, gives him easily the best neutral of the heavies, completing his gameplan against the top tiers.

Quoting Emblem Lord here, "[Marth is] A footsie character that can force people to block and then...nothing because he doesn't have anything scary coming after that. Block all day vs Marth because he is not scary when he puts you on defense. This means his gameplan is not functional. Crescent Slash makes his gameplan of bullying people towards the ledge and forcing shields through solid footsies, actually rewarding."

Ike is like a wannabe heavy, customs off. Only his garbage edgeguarding makes it so he deals with all the neutral issues heavies have without the powerful edgeguarding that heavies all possess. Close Combat improves his neutral considerably, and Tempest gives him actual edgeguarding.

Now compare all of those to Sheiks customs. She gets a little extra shield pressure (which even then, has decreased range and lower damage) and a side-B that isn't worthless but is still crap. Whoop-dee-doo.

Now just so I'm not using only one top/high tier example, Rosalina. She gets Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit. Both are incredibly good. But you know what they help her with? Characters with very strong rushdown, the characters she's not good at fighting in customs-off. She once again gets customs that help her bad matchups, not her good. I can personally attest to this as a Ganon main, Rosalina is probably one of Ganon's most improved matchups with customs on, despite her own improvements.

I'm finally going to get to the point here. Customs all have drawbacks. What this means is that augmenting what your characters good at will always come with an actually significant price, while fixing your characters weaknesses will always be much more valuable than that price. What this means is that customs will always help a character with their bad (read: polarizing) matchups, while leaving their good matchups untouched. Wizard's Dropkick is an excellent example of this. Ganon with a really good recovery? Surely that's unfair! But Wizard's Dropkick requires Ganon to give up the deadly anti-juggle tool Wizard's Foot provides, which is almost never worth it. It's only in the matchups where he gets gimped easily (coincidentally his worst matchups) that Wizard's Dropkick has it's time to shine. Dropkick doesn't help him at all against Kirby, Wario, Mario, or Little Mac.

TL;DR/Conclusion: Customs aren't capable of being unbalanced simply because they all have a drawback of some kind, and augmenting what your character is good at is almost never worth that drawback while fixing a weakness is. Because of this, Customs can only significantly help in bad matchups, inherently making the game more balanced and allowing much more of the cast to be viable.

 

[Kofu]

Burst Grenade isn't useless, though Gravity Grenade gives Sheik kill setups. I know it can provide ledge pressure and clank with other projectiles.

Just a nitpick. I'd wager it's better than her old chain, anyway.

 

[Ffamran]

Chain had the ability to troll in Melee, but Burst Grenade allows Sheik to kill through trapping. Was it in Melee or Brawl that Sheik could use Chain to tether recover? Even then, it wasn't that great for recovering because it was slow, right?

 

[Jaxas]

Chain had the ability to troll in Melee, but Burst Grenade allows Sheik to kill through trapping. Was it in Melee or Brawl that Sheik could use Chain to tether recover? Even then, it wasn't that great for recovering because it was slow, right?

It couldn't in Melee, so I'm assuming it was just in Brawl. I certainly wouldn't mind having a tether recovery over the grenade in Sm4sh though...