Character Competitive Impressions

[Killtrox]

So you think that any character with a bad grab will not be able to beat top tier characters or be top tier themselves?

Also what's ur views in a top tier character having a bad recovery? Diddy for instance once the meta evolves and people get more comfortable going off stage is that something we'll have to look at that could potentially make this character drop down a bit? If grabs prohibit yoshi from being considered a top 10 character is a questionable recovery going to do the same thing?

Generally, from what I've seen any ability that knocks Diddy far enough off-stage to make his recovery an issue will likely kill him anyway. Spikes and dunks aren't as common in this game, and edge-guarding a Diddy that is recovering from below isn't likely to work in your favor.

As far as side-recovery, most of the cast have moves that don't have as much priority as say, Diddy's Uair or his side-b. Going off-stage to meet him is usually a strategically worse move than waiting for him to come back and reacting to whatever bull**** he sends your way.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Now theres a good question. but be aware its also been proven that diddy's recovery is also quite flexible and can be unpredictable i belive ADHD made an example of this the most. but then we have to ask our selves. What is a questionable recovery? would falcons be considered weak? or would pits? i could come up with reason why both are weak. but its more along the lines of does it hinder the character? i dont think diddy's recovery hinders his offstage game very much. his recovery functions effectivly so i see no reason why diddy may sink because of recovery but thats me. on top of monkey flip.......

Also one more thing to think about when talking about grabs and value of grabs. I personally don't consider falcon better than yoshi. Falcon is a top 15 character he's very good and has the best dash grab in the game but having the best dash grab in the game doesn't make him top 5 due to his holes he has else where in his game. Same can he said for yoshi yeah he has a bad grab but he has more pros that make up for his lack of a good grab. Yoshi would be broken if his grab was any better same with pac for that matter. Like you said it's all the player playing the character. If u condition ur opponent to block ur approaches your def going go open up the grab game.

All good characters have weaknesses. Shiek can't kill, Diddy can be gimped easily, sonic to me is over rated and very one dimensional and as time goes on I feel he's going to really drop.

 

[Luco]

Now theres a good question. but be aware its also been proven that diddy's recovery is also quite flexible and can be unpredictable i belive ADHD made an example of this the most. but then we have to ask our selves. What is a questionable recovery? would falcons be considered weak? or would pits? i could come up with reason why both are weak. but its more along the lines of does it hinder the character? i dont think diddy's recovery hinders his offstage game very much. his recovery functions effectivly so i see no reason why diddy may sink because of recovery but thats me. on top of monkey flip.......

I think when it comes to having a good recovery you have to ask two questions: First, does it do its job? By this criteria the pits do quite well, so does anyone with a reasonably long recovery. The second question is can the opponent hinder the recovery effectively? This question can be more complex than it sounds but as a general rule of thumb, a recovery is good if both questions are answered for, okay if one or the other is compromised and bad if they're both an issue. Most characters at least have one or the other though (safe vs. long recovery).

As I was saying about the complexity of the second question, someone like Diddy Kong should by all rights have more issues with the second question but often doesn't. I would hazard a guess and say this might be due to the way he falls and that might be an issue for characters that have worse recoveries too... In reality I'm not that sure.

@ Conda : Hmm, maybe, I'm not so sure she does it better in the end but what I'd then like to ask you is, who is showcasing that she is at the level you're making her out to be? Salem uses her every so often but usually goes Sheik or Villager right?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Also one more thing to think about when talking about grabs and value of grabs. I personally don't consider falcon better than yoshi. Falcon is a top 15 character he's very good and has the best dash grab in the game but having the best dash grab in the game doesn't make him top 5 due to his holes he has else where in his game. Same can he said for yoshi yeah he has a bad grab but he has more pros that make up for his lack of a good grab. Yoshi would be broken if his grab was any better same with pac for that matter. Like you said it's all the player playing the character. If u condition ur opponent to block ur approaches your def going go open up the grab game.

All good characters have weaknesses. Shiek can't kill, Diddy can be gimped easily, sonic to me is over rated and very one dimensional and as time goes on I feel he's going to really drop.

I think the best way i can put it.
is that having a bad grab is a greater hinderance than a good grab being an asset.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

- Sure, jab works now
- Up air is nothing but a nerf, there's nothing buffed about it. Hitbox is smaller, start-up is slower. It's safer on block by a small amount, but as a juggle/air bullying move it's worse.
- Yeah true
- Grab catches badly timed spot dodges, but this shouldn't really be relied on
- Her tilts overall are "better" in smash 4, but if I had to choose between brawl dtilt and smash 4 tilt / utilt I think the choice would be pretty obvious. As a set-up move ftilt just doesn't do the same job and they cover the same space in front, so this is probably more a nerf than anything unless you're just looking at ftilt in a vacuum.
- Back air is so much worse. It kills later, is LESS disjointed (not more), doesn't have a hitbox on her body, and has to be sweet spotted to kill.
- Brawl dash attack was way better >_>

For the record, I don't want to understate the changes she got as being insignificant, because they aren't:

- Jab is ridiculous, obviously
- Nair being safe on block is just crazy good, uair too. Combined with jab, the nair->jab frame trap->dash away or complete your jab is bull**** tbh.
- Up-B OOS is great, although shielding in general ain't what it used to be
- Recovery is probably better because down-b is flexible and you can re-used up-b after being hit (big problem for zss in brawl against MK and a few other characters)

But I'd say that if you put Smash 4 ZSS in Brawl it would be a significant nerf overall. The reason ZSS is good in Smash 4 is because most characters just got worse at everything.

I think ZSS is better in this version. And there's really no point complaining about nerfs when she's a better character. But that's just my opinion. It annoys me when people play good characters and then attempt to downplay them.

 

[Conda]

@Supermodel From Paris
ZSS isn't perfect, but the list of 'shortcomings' you are pointing out about her is tiny compared to the list of shortcomings for the majority of other characters. That's a big part of the reasoning for her placement on my list.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I think ZSS is better in this version. And there's really no point complaining about nerfs when she's a better character. But that's just my opinion. It annoys me when people play good characters and then attempt to downplay them.

i think its always good to know what changes occured durring the brawl transition. its key to understanding what works now rather than before.
also its always a good idea to look at your character with a critical eye even if that means downplaying them it help u work around all potential weaknesses and overall tightens up ur play.

we have been downplaying mario as well for a VERY long time but hey hes been holding his own. kinda...

 

[TriTails]

You guys post so fast in 15 hours that a good 10-11 pages I have to read (I just skipped most of them) since the last I saw it.

Now what are you guys discussing again?

 

[Luco]

I think ZSS is better in this version. And there's really no point complaining about nerfs when she's a better character. But that's just my opinion. It annoys me when people play good characters and then attempt to downplay them.

That's great, except he's not the only one saying it, and I sure as hell don't main Zero suit.

The discussion isn't solely about her nerfs, its more about what they mean and how she fits into this meta. Her kill power is mostly average - it's good (even better that Uair true combos into upB I assume with certain DI) but like, other characters in the tier below her have better killing options and more reliable ones.

The argument that she does these things better and is overall more rounded than the characters in that tier, even if that's true, I don't believe justifies putting her in the next tier up, it just puts her closer to it/towards the top of the next tier down. I feel people are seriously exaggerating this characters' strengths. She is a freakishly good character but I don't believe she is unfair in any way shape or form like the other top 4 characters, and I'm not sure what results are that say she is. I'm not even totally convinced she's above the likes of Pikachu, Ness and Yoshi.

You guys post so fast in 15 hours that a good 10-11 pages I have to read (I just skipped most of them) since the last I saw it.

Now what are you guys discussing again?

Hahaha, we've discussed a few things, including a few tier lists, ZSS' position and the mentality and legitimacy of low tier players.

 

[Asdioh]

His rapid jab end has way too much reach though. Ever go into training and see how far in front of him it reaches? It's disgusting. (Kirby's is similar but it's Kirby so who cares)

The reach and disjoint is nice, but the fact that jab3 does not truly combo from jab2 is pretty quality game design. Seriously play against a good sheik and they'll jab you before your multijab part comes out every time. If that wasn't bad enough, it's one of the easiest multijabs to DI out of, I do it in kirby dittos all the time, it's comparable to like, bowser jr, robin, diddy, pit, and spacies. (These things really need fixes, good justifications for a balance patch! Nobody should lose their stock for landing a jab, having it DI'd out, and punished because of massive endlag, I say this even though kirby is good at doing this very thing)

Also, the hitbox matches the animation, and reality... seriously? have you seen the insane reach on vulcan jab in kirby games? Even smash4's buffed version is nothing compared to return to dreamland.

About recoveries... I feel that few of the good characters have truly exploitable recoveries. Watch izaw vs haze and see how badly falcon's recovery screws him. Watch ness try to recover with upB and see how often that kills him. Watch diddy kong... please tell me, how often does he die for getting knocked offstage? I haven't watched the big tournies from this weekend yet, how many times did it happen? I'm guessing not many. Even the famous will vs m2k example only happened because diddy used upb instantly instead of jumping and airdodging first. After that surprise I'm sure he learned his lesson and never did that again.

I'd like to se more of that ledge snap vulnerability though, has it been seen in tournaments at all?

 

[Nobie]

I hope I'm not re-opening a can of worms by talking about this, but a number of pages back people were discussing what it means to be competitive, and what it means to pick a top tier character vs. a low tier one. An issue that kept coming up is what your motivation should be when playing competitively, and that, if you want to win as much as possible, you may very well be better off using a top tier.

This reminded me of a famous design philosophy used in Magic: The Gathering, which is to think about how certain cards appeal to certain player archetypes. While one archetype may be seen as the more "tournament mindset" personality, all of them can and often do play to win. I'm going to try and adapt these archetypes to Smash. I believe @ Thinkaman has talked about this too in the past? I apologize if I got the wrong person.

Timmy likes to "win big." He likes making power plays. In Smash terms, he'd be the guy who looks to land that massive Captain Falcon knee to blow his opponent away, and takes immense satisfaction from doing so.

Johnny likes to "win on his own terms." He's the one who wants to innovate and experiment in order to show off his creativity. This is where non-top tier specialists such as Will (DK) and Zucco (Mega Man) thrive.

Spike "plays to win." He's the tournament-minded player, who cares about quantity of wins over quality of wins, and who sees what's working and copies and refines it to the best of his ability. I think a lot of the Diddy craze comes from Spikes, who search out the current best tools available (down throw + up air), and use it to, well, win.

I think it's no surprise to anyone that there are a lot of "Spikes" in competitive play, and in fact there is probably a bit of Spike in anyone willing to play competitively in the first place (these categories aren't rigid after all). However, the thing I want people to consider is that being motivated by winning is not necessarily about the pure desire to win, but rather the desire to win in a way that is satisfying to them. A lot of players have other values mixed into their competitive mindsets, and this can affect their motivations for which character they choose.

 

[Shaya]

So why is anyone other than Diddy in the tier of your top 4 Luco?
Why is Rosalina and Sonic there? What are they winning?

Let's talk about what ZSS has and then mention what she doesn't.
Top tier mobility specs - undeniable.
Range and speed comparable to Diddy and Sheik in attacks.
OoS options: Up B (4), Jab (8), Up Tilt (10), etc
A lot of safety in her tools, low commitment actions which lead to big rewards.

What she doesn't have:
a 6-8 frame grab.
not a variety of killing attacks

-

I don't think ZSS bair has a sour spot this game, it's only out two frames IIRC.

 

[TriTails]

Hahaha, we've discussed a few things, including a few tier lists, ZSS' position and the mentality and legitimacy of low tier players.

Yeah, but I'm going to be serious, this is the most active forums I have ever signed up. One hour after I signed on this site, I was like 'What? Why the heck is this place so quiet?' only to woke up in the next day and I changed to like 'HOLY CHICKEN STEAK!'

But I didn't expect the pages to advance THIS fast. I mean, yeah, I know this forums has TONS of members and I left it for like 15 hours, but still..... This community is fantastic! :D

Still haven't got rid of my laziness, reading 10 pages of whooping 400 posts are going to take time .

Anyway, I see Asdioh saying something about rapid jabs..... I have nothing to say, but as a Luigi main, unless the rapid jabs come from Greninja, Robin, Palutena, or LM (Maybe a few others), I literally just punished it with N-air. Yeah, it's a thing that (Doctor) Mario can do, but hey, Luigi's N-air is stronger (Though, not very suited for KOing, at least in 3DS version) and if Weegee cancelled them out when their percentage is still pretty low, then that could mean a free grab.

Though, I wonder if LM can do the same, considering his N-air comes out at FRAME FREAKING 2! Though, the range is pretty small.

And while we're still at it, I notice (Dark) Pit's rapid jabs don't trap opponent very well. As a Dark Pit secondary myself, I had times where the opponent just airdodged the final hit and punish me because of lag. I mean, CHAMAWN! (Captain Falcon sytle) I land a jab and I GOT PUNISHED!? If the opponent was (Doctor) Mario or Luigi then I can understand, but seriously? I'm not using a rapid jab so my opponent can just FALL through with AN AIR DODGE and PUNISH me with it. They don't even DI, they just air dodged and fall through, that's it. This needs to be fixed, Mr. Sakurai!

 

[Nobie]

Speaking of getting out of rapid jabs, has anything big been done with the fact that Bowser basically has armor against all rapid jabs? Like, pick Little Mac or Sheik and go nuts. Bowser will reel back from the first two parts of the attack, but if you decide to keep jabbing, he won't even flinch. There's an obvious workaround to this (never rapid jab), but are there any characters that lose out significantly because of this, besides Mega Man, whose lemons never ever make Bowser flinch?

 

[Luco]

So why is anyone other than Diddy in the tier of your top 4 Luco?
Why is Rosalina and Sonic there? What are they winning?

Let's talk about what ZSS has and then mention what she doesn't.
Top tier mobility specs - undeniable.
Range and speed comparable to Diddy and Sheik in attacks.
OoS options: Up B (4), Jab (8), Up Tilt (10), etc
A lot of safety in her tools, low commitment actions which lead to big rewards.

What she doesn't have:
a 6-8 frame grab.
not a variety of killing attacks

-

I don't think ZSS bair has a sour spot this game, it's only out two frames IIRC.

Well in my honest opinion, I'm not sure they ARE in the same tier as Diddy, at least not anymore. Rosalina and Sonic could very well be in the next tier down and I would probably be okay with that based on the evidence and results I've been seeing, but I feel like they're debatable and someone could give me a solid argument for their placement there. That said, if I were to make my own tier list, I'd probably keep Diddy and Sheik and maaayyybbbe Pikachu (actually I need to see more of Pikachu, in the meantime to be safe I'd probably keep him just below those two) in the topmost tier and then have the rest of top 9 or so in the next tier. An example of this might be:

Tier 1:

Tier 2:

That's for clarification (not actually sure if I'd put Fox there or someone else but yeah) on the point rather than my actual top tier right now (though it's reasonably close I think).

BUT another viable way of constructing this tier list, closer to Cobbs/Pazx would be something like this, bringing Pika, Sonic and Rosaluma up to create the top 5 that they have. That tier list would look closer to what they have and might be a viable way of putting it, so I tried to conform my thinking to this kind of tier list. And when I do, I don't picture ZSS being in there over Pikachu. I'm not sure who's getting results with ZSS too. Granted Sonic rarely shows up at 1st either, but with Sonic I know Espy does stuff, also 6WX seems to do well with him?

Also is a frame 8 jab something to boast about or did everyone get nerfed in that department too?

Like, I dunno, I've just never seen the hype for this character in the same way I have for other characters. People will frequently go "Oh man Sonic is sooo disgusting!" or "Oh my goodness I can't handle Pikachu at all." or "Fair, Fair, Fair ---> Bouncing Fish is cancer." but no-one goes "Zero Suit's mobility and Uair combos make me sick!"

They merely refer to her as "good." So in addition to my reasoning, the stigma behind it is more or less this.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Frame 8 out of shield. It's a 1 frame jab. 7 to drop. It's as fast as possible.

 

[TriTails]

Shield drop is 7 frames, right?

But if you jump OoS, you don't have to deal with the shield drop lag, right?

Then what if....

Mario shields -> Shorthop OoS -> N-air immediately

That's maybe even faster than ZSS' jab OoS, folks.

(Yeah.... I was about to use Luigi as an example, but that traction comes on my mind when I talk about his shield)

 

[Luco]

Frame 8 out of shield. It's a 1 frame jab. 7 to drop. It's as fast as possible.

Oh right I totally forgot OoS derppp . Doesn't that mean upB is slower too (11) unless she jumps first (which can be done but runs the risk of missing small targets?)

@ TriTails - Yeah, many characters have fantastic SH Nairs OoS, Mario is one of them. ^_^

But something else to mention @ Shaya is that ZSS is both light and tall - she can be hit reasonably easily unless crouching and she dies early to stuff as 9th lightest character in the game.

 

[Pazzo.]

Could Diddy Kong's recovery be hindered by a shield special that causes no damage, say Pit's Guardian Orbitars or Palutena's Reflect?

 

[Pazx]

@ TriTails there is no way an opponent could airdodge through a rapid jab and punish you for it as there is significant landing lag after an airdodge during which you would presumably jab them again. Not sure what Mario/Luigi's jumpsquat is but that's at least a few frames + frame 3 nair which is slower than a lot of upB OoS options, not sure about ZSS jab.

@ Luco all upB's OoS are done by jumping, you cancel the jumpsquat into the special so you don't have to wait for the shield drop. I do not believe you actually leave the ground.

@ Nobie I believe Bowser loses his "super armour" (tough guy?) when he reaches 30 or 40%, correct me if I'm wrong. PK Fire isn't useful until he's at about that percentage anyway.

@ Pazzo. yes.

Also on the topic of rapid jabs - most of them aren't true combos. With no melee-esque crouch cancelling and the fastest nairs being frame 3 this isn't something that can be completely capitalised upon but Jiggs can rest a lot of characters during their jab transition.

At this point in the game I can potentially see ZSS (and Rosalina?) in their own tier(s) between Yoshi/Ness/High tier and Diddy/Sheik/Top tier as I think that it's likely that with their matchups combined they would have an advantage against every single character below them. Right now I think it's very clear that the metagame for these characters along with Sonic and Pikachu aren't as developed as that for Diddy and while I think they will likely rise up any future tier lists (hence me putting them in top originally) they aren't quite there yet.

No order within tiers, except Diddy = first and Sheik = second. The reason I started with S tier (which is disliked and rightfully so) is that I think most characters in this game fall into the same 2 tiers and calling that tier D or E discredits their ability, the vast majority of characters in this game should fall into B tier. no hyrule tier pls


S:
A:
B+:
B:
C: almost everyone else (we will likely have a distinction between C+ and C-)
D: truly unviable characters (are there any???)


I expect Ness to drop a tier (or have a significant number of characters join B), Rosalina to drop and then rise later on, Diddy to drop (from 1st to 2nd/3rd/4th, definitely top tier and will likely be joined by more characters). I don't quite think ZSS will break S tier and therefore may drop to 4th/5th/6th/7th over time but I don't see ZSS being below A or B+ as I think there is a definite gap between ZSS tier and the unwashed (yet viable) masses, which is as I've stated many times the vast majority of the cast. If you missed that, I do not believe ZSS is or ever will be in the same tier as Ness. Sorry Luco.

also tether grabs OP volvo pls nerf

 

[Thinkaman]

all upB's OoS are done by jumping, you cancel the jumpsquat into the special so you don't have to wait for the shield drop. I do not believe you actually leave the ground.

A few oddball ones do. (These tend to be poor OoS options)

Also on the topic of rapid jabs - most of them aren't true combos. With no melee-esque crouch cancelling and the fastest nairs being frame 3 this isn't something that can be completely capitalised upon but Jiggs can rest a lot of characters during their jab transition.

Also, the following frame 1 startup armor moves:

• Stubborn Headbutt
• Rock Hurl
• Grounding Dash
• Back Slash Charge
• Volatile Breathing

 

[TriTails]

@ Pazx Actually, they weren't falling through the rapid jab. It's the END of the rapid jab, where the characters uses a powerful enough attack to knock opponents away, and it's either I'm not remembering correctly (Yeah.... I'm forgetful.....), I'm just TOO SLOW! (Gah, Sonic, getoutta my head!), or (Dark) Pit's ending rapid jab has a lot of lag. Dunno, I guess I'm just too slow.

Also.... heh? Fox is below Ness? I thought that guy's sheer speed (4th fastest dashing speed!) and same air speed as Rosalina (Well, at least it's average), and relatively safe normals can rocket him to B+ tier already? Or is it me that is lacking on Fox's knowledge?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Speaking of getting out of rapid jabs, has anything big been done with the fact that Bowser basically has armor against all rapid jabs? Like, pick Little Mac or Sheik and go nuts. Bowser will reel back from the first two parts of the attack, but if you decide to keep jabbing, he won't even flinch. There's an obvious workaround to this (never rapid jab), but are there any characters that lose out significantly because of this, besides Mega Man, whose lemons never ever make Bowser flinch?

This is why you gotta use the Gentleman if you can (C falcon, dark pit, etc.) Some characters can't do it like fox or sheik, but if you can use it, it's typically the best option. Oftentimes, with characters like fox I actually never go into the rapid jab part, and instead I just jab-jab-grab.

 

[Makorel]

Could Diddy Kong's recovery be hindered by a shield special that causes no damage, say Pit's Guardian Orbitars or Palutena's Reflect?

Pit's Guardian Orbitars no. Pit's Impact Orbitars yes. Impact Orbitars are an extremely useful edge guarding tool for Pit who doesn't have much vertical range on his forward and back aerials and as such they fix a key weakness in those areas. with Impact Orbitars a literal wall of "you shall not pass" is erected on either side of Pit to smack Diddy Kong back off stage at a lower angle than the electroshock arm every time he tries to monkey flip back in. you can even catch Diddies trying to Monkey Flip over you instead of into you because of how large both vertically and horizontally the hitboxes are. Then when Diddy gets low enough that he has to Barrel Rocket you can slide off the stage and spike them before they get within range of the ledge auto snap and just baaaaarley get out of the move's end lag to not SD at the bottom (fast falling will into Impact Orbitars will kill you from the stage). That's assuming that you don't have time to fast fall and jump into a Down B and also assuming hitting Diddy with the impact orbitars high up didn't leave him further than his barrel rocket can come back or knocked him right into the blast zone.

[Edit: I need to actually test that stuff in the strike through. I'm pretty sure the orbitars are bigger than the snap area vertically but I don't know if the timing to cover that area works out that way]

Another plus is that they don't really diminish Pit's ground threat by not being a reflector because they have super armor on the ground (frame 1 super armor if my hunch about the unknown substate in Pit's frame data is correct). If Diddy tries do anything that isn't a grab, shield or far away banana he can find himself out in no man's land at higher percents or if he's in a bad stage position.

 

[Thinkaman]

Top


1
/

2


3

Top:
High:
Upper:
Lower:

Averaging these three lists because I like them: (Forgive the arbitrary labels--also no Miis due to incomplete data)
Agreed Top Tier:
Shaya's other Top Tier:
Agreed High Tier:/
Two High Votes Tier:
One High Vote Tier:
Conda Overrates People tier:
Agreed Upon Mid Tier:
Two Mid Votes Tier:
One Mid Vote Tier:
Agreed Lower Tier:


My List: (1v1, no customs, ordered within each level)








My List: (1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above)








Looking back, biggest winners who moved up at least 2 levels in viability are Palutena (39 -> 11), DK (20 -> 14), Ganon (32 -> 21), Ike (30 -> 24), Bowser Jr. (31 -> 25), DHD (40 -> 32), and Samus (39 -> 39). WFT also probably counts as a big winner (35 -> 34).

 

[Asdioh]

/slight tangent

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
I usually just use this frame data chart as a reference when I see or think of something and want to look it up. But now I'm actually looking through it carefully, and it kind of speaks volumes about characters, even though it doesn't include their damage/disjoints/endlag etc.

Kirby for example, since I main him! I already pretty much know his data by heart, but when I look at it more and compare it to other characters, it's like "oh."
First of all, I (and maybe others, I dunno) usually think of him as an airborne character. Bair is often the first thing that comes to mind when they think of the character. It's frame 6, and it does 13 damage! Pretty nice, right? But frame 6 Bair is his fastest aerial. Upair, Nair, and Fair, all of which "feel" pretty quick, are frame 10. Not too bad I guess, right? Obviously his slow Dair is frame 18 and highly situational, but overall his data's pretty good???
Then you look at other characters' aerials, and you see fellows like Pikachu (3/10/4/4/14). That's 3 moves that are faster than Kirby's fastest aerial. And they probably have disjoints somewhere, unlike any of Kirby's aerials. Sheik (3/5/4/4/15). Aaaand that's 4 aerials faster than my fastest. Some of which have disjoints (I'm assuming Fair does anyway). Diddy Kong (8/6/5/3/17). Ok, Diddy's Fair (you know the MASSIVE range aerial) has the same frame data as my fastest. His Bair is faster, and of course Upair is frame 3 and has an insane hitbox. I sure won't be winning in the air! etc.
But hey, most of Kirby's aerials have low landing lag, right? (Namely Upair, Bair, and Nair, since for some depressing reason, Fair does not autocancel out of a shorthop.) Well... sort of. The landing lag is "low" yet it's enough that people can just run up and punish you if their timing is decent. A perfectly spaced Bair is probably the only safe aerial on shield, and even that's unsafe against certain characters. If his air mobility was better it might be a different story, but it's not. Even aerials that completely whiff can often be punished despite their "low" endlag.

But then Kirby's ground data: frame 6 grab, tied for the fastest in the game, frame 3 jab, which is quite good, and I believe can be double jab canceled into grabs or other moves (I have to test more and see if this is actually a real combo or if it's more of a mixup against people who shield because they expect jab finishers) and frame 5 ftilt, frame 4 uptilt that leads to combos, and frame 4 dtilt that leads to combos are very good. Uptilt also has (slight) intangibility on his foot, and his grounded moves have the capability of clashing, which is a good thing because he can actually clank with swords/disjoints, whereas in the air he would straight up lose. So if I find ways to work on his ground game, and only use aerials as followups for true combos/traps/gimps, instead of hoping people run into my aerials and let me combo them, I might be able to take him farther than I have been.


tl;dr I'm trying to "lab it up" and I think starting with frame data is a very good reference point for whatever character you're using.

 

[Espy Rose]

Rosalina, ZSS, and Fox are all better than Sonic.

 

[zeldasmash]

Um, when has Olimar been considered high tier all of a sudden? Did i miss something?

 

[Smog Frog]

Averaging these three lists because I like them: (Forgive the arbitrary labels--also no Miis due to incomplete data)
Agreed Top Tier:
Shaya's other Top Tier:
Agreed High Tier:/
Two High Votes Tier:
One High Vote Tier:
Conda Overrates People tier:
Agreed Upon Mid Tier:
Two Mid Votes Tier:
One Mid Vote Tier:
Agreed Lower Tier:


My List: (1v1, no customs, ordered within each level)


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My List: (1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above)


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if we're talking customs ike is ezpz up there with palutena

 

[Nu~]

With customs, pacman should be a lot higher.
Freaky fruit gives him better kill set ups and walling capabilities, and lazy fruit makes it very hard for the opponent to approach.
Meteor trampoline gives him a very wide meteor smash hitbox, and a very dangerous trap on stage.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've been playing predominantly with customs, so I actually have more confidence in that list than the former. I've got a pretty solid idea (relatively speaking) of just how important most customs are to a character's matchup. It's easy to overestimate their impact when extrapolating.

if we're talking customs ike is ezpz up there with palutena

Ike, along with Ganon, have top-tier improvements that are a big help in virtually all matchups--but it doesn't turn him into Diddy.

Super Speed, meanwhile, really is the real deal.

With customs, pacman should be a lot higher.
Freaky fruit gives him better kill set ups and walling capabilities, and lazy fruit makes it very hard for the opponent to approach.
Meteor trampoline gives him a very wide meteor smash hitbox, and a very dangerous trap on stage.

Lazy Fruit's issue is that it is trivial to catch. Freaky Fruit is a pretty competitive option set with the default, but I've slowly preferred the default more and more. This is definitely one of the most complex choices (if not the), so more experience will be needed.

Meteor trampoline is superior to the default as a trap, but not to the point where it really changes the ultimate result. The bottom line is, the opponent doesn't want to touch it.

 

[HeroMystic]

My List: (1v1, no customs, ordered within each level)

Mario's placement being higher than Luigi and the Pits are an eyebrow-raiser. So far it's been universally stated that Luigi is better than Mario, and last I heard the Pits have pretty good MUs against the higher tiers.

Falcon has some glaring weaknesses too, and gets janked by multiple characters including Sheik. I would place him on the third tier.

 

[David Viran]

Oh yeah and notable zss player you should look up is choco. He's a Japanese player on the YouTube channel shi-g.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I've been playing predominantly with customs, so I actually have more confidence in that list than the former. I've got a pretty solid idea (relatively speaking) of just how important most customs are to a character's matchup. It's easy to overestimate their impact when extrapolating.



Ike, along with Ganon, have top-tier improvements that are a big help in virtually all matchups--but it doesn't turn him into Diddy.

Super Speed, meanwhile, really is the real deal.

Why is Super Speed seen as so great? Is there something I'm missing?

Lazy Fruit's issue is that it is trivial to catch. Freaky Fruit is a pretty competitive option set with the default, but I've slowly preferred the default more and more. This is definitely one of the most complex choices (if not the), so more experience will be needed.

Meteor trampoline is superior to the default as a trap, but not to the point where it really changes the ultimate result. The bottom line is, the opponent doesn't want to touch it.

Meteor Trampoline actually has a hitbox at the underside of the trampoline at the beginning of the move, making it a potent killing move. Pac-Man rises a half tier with one imo.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Mario's placement being higher than Luigi and the Pits are an eyebrow-raiser. So far it's been universally stated that Luigi is better than Mario, and last I heard the Pits have pretty good MUs against the higher tiers.

Falcon has some glaring weaknesses too, and gets janked by multiple characters including Sheik. I would place him on the third tier.

Yeah Falcon gets bodied by Sheik more than anyone from what I know. Switch him with luigi.

 

[warionumbah2]

I think its about time I jump on the custom ride, hope tournament s make it legal in the future.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

/slight tangent

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
I usually just use this frame data chart as a reference when I see or think of something and want to look it up. But now I'm actually looking through it carefully, and it kind of speaks volumes about characters, even though it doesn't include their damage/disjoints/endlag etc.

Kirby for example, since I main him! I already pretty much know his data by heart, but when I look at it more and compare it to other characters, it's like "oh."
First of all, I (and maybe others, I dunno) usually think of him as an airborne character. Bair is often the first thing that comes to mind when they think of the character. It's frame 6, and it does 13 damage! Pretty nice, right? But frame 6 Bair is his fastest aerial. Upair, Nair, and Fair, all of which "feel" pretty quick, are frame 10. Not too bad I guess, right? Obviously his slow Dair is frame 18 and highly situational, but overall his data's pretty good???
Then you look at other characters' aerials, and you see fellows like Pikachu (3/10/4/4/14). That's 3 moves that are faster than Kirby's fastest aerial. And they probably have disjoints somewhere, unlike any of Kirby's aerials. Sheik (3/5/4/4/15). Aaaand that's 4 aerials faster than my fastest. Some of which have disjoints (I'm assuming Fair does anyway). Diddy Kong (8/6/5/3/17). Ok, Diddy's Fair (you know the MASSIVE range aerial) has the same frame data as my fastest. His Bair is faster, and of course Upair is frame 3 and has an insane hitbox. I sure won't be winning in the air! etc.
But hey, most of Kirby's aerials have low landing lag, right? (Namely Upair, Bair, and Nair, since for some depressing reason, Fair does not autocancel out of a shorthop.) Well... sort of. The landing lag is "low" yet it's enough that people can just run up and punish you if their timing is decent. A perfectly spaced Bair is probably the only safe aerial on shield, and even that's unsafe against certain characters. If his air mobility was better it might be a different story, but it's not. Even aerials that completely whiff can often be punished despite their "low" endlag.

But then Kirby's ground data: frame 6 grab, tied for the fastest in the game, frame 3 jab, which is quite good, and I believe can be double jab canceled into grabs or other moves (I have to test more and see if this is actually a real combo or if it's more of a mixup against people who shield because they expect jab finishers) and frame 5 ftilt, frame 4 uptilt that leads to combos, and frame 4 dtilt that leads to combos are very good. Uptilt also has (slight) intangibility on his foot, and his grounded moves have the capability of clashing, which is a good thing because he can actually clank with swords/disjoints, whereas in the air he would straight up lose. So if I find ways to work on his ground game, and only use aerials as followups for true combos/traps/gimps, instead of hoping people run into my aerials and let me combo them, I might be able to take him farther than I have been.


tl;dr I'm trying to "lab it up" and I think starting with frame data is a very good reference point for whatever character you're using.

I could've told ya this . Given I've said it.
Puffs throws do more damage then Kirby's and she has a better pummel. Her ground game also hits harder but has higher start up.

Kirby's deal is low recovery/start-up tilts and low recovery aerials. Its really so you transition from air-ground offense better then most except for Auto cancels.

The game changer is supposed to be his specials but....eh...I'd swap out everything but stone in customs.

To me you have to justify yourself relative to puff first and its all attack speed. Sucks that those very same characters above also have fast tilt options. Kirby's IASA on tilts also seems to be about the same as brawl.

Its funny that in average landing lag, the characters with the least are
1. Kirby
2. Lucario
3. Peach
4. Mario
5. ZSS
6. Mega
7. Sheik
8. Luigi
9. Falcon
10. Yoshi

Note how literally everyone on that List has been considered either, Top, Mid or High in current trending opinions here *except* Kirby. Lol and he has the least.
Kirby's Least is on Nair, F-air and U-air, because these are what you'll really be transitioning from. Eg. If you F-air and then fast fall into the ground with them prior to your third hit and immediately go into 2x Jab, or Dtilt.

Or that barring Dash attack. Kirby's Jab + F/U/D tilt are all sub 5. With 3 frame Jab, averaging 4 frames for all 4 moves. With Sonic with the same Jab being 5.5 and the very diddy you bringing up also being a frame 3 jab...with a frame 10 ftilt, 6 utilt and 4 dtilt...(5.75 average).I don't want to overstress this because we're talking very *small* moments of time that aren't even in the general scope of fully capitalizing until higher ends of competition. Except to reinforce Kirbys aspects which is going from N-air/U-air/F-air into a tilt/Jab/Grab and as far as upper members of the cast, his options in start-up are equal/better on the ground barring range.

 

[Judo777]

- Sure, jab works now
- Up air is nothing but a nerf, there's nothing buffed about it. Hitbox is smaller, start-up is slower. It's safer on block by a small amount, but as a juggle/air bullying move it's worse.
- Yeah true
- Grab catches badly timed spot dodges, but this shouldn't really be relied on
- Her tilts overall are "better" in smash 4, but if I had to choose between brawl dtilt and smash 4 tilt / utilt I think the choice would be pretty obvious. As a set-up move ftilt just doesn't do the same job and they cover the same space in front, so this is probably more a nerf than anything unless you're just looking at ftilt in a vacuum.
- Back air is so much worse. It kills later, is LESS disjointed (not more), doesn't have a hitbox on her body, and has to be sweet spotted to kill.
- Brawl dash attack was way better >_>

For the record, I don't want to understate the changes she got as being insignificant, because they aren't:

- Jab is ridiculous, obviously
- Nair being safe on block is just crazy good, uair too. Combined with jab, the nair->jab frame trap->dash away or complete your jab is bull**** tbh.
- Up-B OOS is great, although shielding in general ain't what it used to be
- Recovery is probably better because down-b is flexible and you can re-used up-b after being hit (big problem for zss in brawl against MK and a few other characters)

But I'd say that if you put Smash 4 ZSS in Brawl it would be a significant nerf overall. The reason ZSS is good in Smash 4 is because most characters just got worse at everything.

This guy is right I think. I have been saying this for forever now. Most of the characters in smash 4(obvious exceptions like Sonic) are worse versions of themselves compared to brawl at face value. It just so happens that every characer is this way, and so they are better relative to the rest of the cast. Diddy is not near as good as he was in brawl. The only buffs that I am aware that he got are that his uair is stronger (but slower), his peanuts knockback is much better, and his dthrow has a better angle (although everyone having more hitstun helps alot). everything else is worse at face value I believe.

Zss received several nerfs, it just so happens that they weren't nerfed that hard, and so she can do several things that few characters can do now. Which makes her good.

I have been saying for forever that this was most promounced in Sheik. Almost her entire moveset is worse than Brawls (except fsmash, and needles knockback). It just so happens that they gave her a few much needed tools that she didn't have in brawl (bouncing fish is a huge one, the other is airspeed as she went from one of the worst air speeds to one of the best, and ledge snap mechanics giving her absurd recovery). Her brawl moveset is better but Sheik was probably net buffed from brawl (airspeed is huge and the moveset nerfs aren't huge, the only painful moveset nerf was dsmash) so by default she is good in the new game.

Because everyone else got much worse.

 

[Balgorxz]

I honestly think it's something like this considering potential and matchups, but not characters difficulty
Viable Tier 1
Viable Tier 2
Viable Tier 3
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not bad

the rest is ....

 

[Terotrous]

Good god there's been even more posts since Friday this week than last time.

A point of consideration:

- Charizard has a 6f, disjointed usmash. This is tied with the fastest grabs in the game.
- upB has superarmor from frame 4, does 17%, and kills Mario without rage at 115% off the top of FD.
- He has one of the longer ranged standing grabs, and his dthrow kills.

Charizard's OoS options are damn scary.

UpB OoS seems not to link reliably in a lot of situations though. The first part hits, but it doesn't send them up into the second hit properly.

Edit: This normally isn't the place for this, but since you guys are my favorite, you get an exclusive opportunity! I never play online, but for some stupid reason agreed to A2Z's online Ganon tourney--so I need to learn the horrors of lag. If anyone wants to play me via the intertubes, this is your one chance! </self-importance>

I would have done if it I had seen this 2 days ago.

Also, lol at your one match having 60-frame delay. I've had one match so far on Smash4 WiiU that was that terrible, but thankfully it has otherwise been pretty playable.

I mean, that sucks too, but I'm more concerned with the inherent lag of the internet and how totally incompatible that is with fighting games.

Today, online play is 99.99% of competitive gaming. Tomorrow that will be 99.999%, and latency isn't going away.

With well-implemented GGPO netcode, a ping of 100ms or less is typically seamless, and 150ms is well playable. This is reasonably attainable with current internet.

Now, it is true that how well GGPO works is dependent on the amount that can happen in one frame, and with Smash having more mobility than other fighters it works slightly less well than something like SF. However, Divekick is one of the most absurdly mobile fighters ever (everything happens in one frame, there's no startup on most moves), and it was still very playable online. Smash4 has thankfully come a long way since Brawl, and while I don't know if its netcode is a GGPO-equivalent it seems to work decently for the most part.

The best games I have ever played, no exceptions full stop, are in order:

1. Smash 4
2. Brawl
3. Melee
4. [huge gap]
5. Anything Else

Oh geez incoming Brawl > Melee flame war.

Anyway, I think the Smash games go near the top in terms of my enjoyment, but I'm not sure if I'd say they're the best-designed games overall. Pretty much every Smash game has some weird issues stemming from Nintendo's general lack of understanding of the competitive scene and questionable decision-making in general. A great example is the fact that you still can't turn off stage hazards, rendering many potentially good stages unplayable (Mushroomy Kingdom U and Pyrosphere for example). Any other dev would have figured out this was an important feature by Brawl at the latest. There are also dumb restrictions on For Glory (why no Battlefield / Smashville?) and other such glaring issues that prevent me from putting Smash at the very top over more well-polished games.

Lets say a California guy (say.... San Fransico) wanted to play against a New Yorker. This is 2900 miles, and I'm just gonna round that to 3000 for easy math. If San Fransisco is the "host", then the "information" that a button was pushed needs to take two trips: one trip to New York City (San Fransisco guy just pushed the shield button), and one trip back (New York city guy confirms that he got the information). Assuming TCP protocol which sends a Syn-Ack with every bit of information. (This extra trip is necessary to keep the two games in sync).

So the information travels roughly 6000 miles. At 125,000 miles/second, that is approximately 1/20th of a secon... or approximately 3 frames.

TLDR: By the known laws of physics, a player in San Fransico playing against a New York player will have at minimum 3 frames of lag, before even factoring in inefficiencies. Time dilates, and fighting games are so intense that the speed of light cannot keep up with it across great distances.

With GGPO netcode, it's not necessary for the player to confirm that they received the information, so you can cut that by half. Also, the type of lag you have becomes "visual lag" and not "processing lag". Your buttons are "happening" exactly when you press them, but you may not see your opponent's actions until a few frames later. As such, the main effect that GGPO online has on the metagame is that some moves become a few frames less reactable. This can still be significant with regards to certain setups, but in general it tends not to hugely change the game, as you can see with the rising predominance across all fighting games of online-only players showing up at real world tournaments and doing well.

Also the commentators ATM for Paragon are literally the worst I've ever seen.

One literally just said "If you wanted us to commentate for real and take this seriously, you should have watched Melee."

Playstation All-Stars and Street Fighter X Tekken were both like this too. Both excellent games at launch that had such ridiculous fan-dumb that the developers later ruined them with stupid patches that ruined what the games were about.

Anyway, I don't want to derail character discussion any further. Care to revisit Little Mac, anyone?

I am convinced Little Mac is Totally Okay.

I agree with him being okay, but I think he's just okay and not in any way great. The 1.04 nerf hit him really hard. You wouldn't think losing 10% distance on his side B would be so major, but I honestly feel like it dropped many of his matches from +1 / 0 to 0 / -1. There used to be some characters who had trouble gimping him, but it's now laughably easy for all characters.

He still has significant strengths onstage, but you really have to be very solid with him as his defense is now easily the worst in the game.

Actually, I think a good comparison is that Little Mac is to the ground what Jigglypuff is to the air. In theory, he has super safe and strong pokes with good mobility, but he has to be super solid since his poor survivability means that if he simply keeps up in the damage race he's losing the match.