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So going into the lab means practice stuff you've not mastered yet? Guess for me that would be getting the timing down for SoL so it comes out bellow the apex of a SH and improving my U-air accuracy (have i mentioned its an awesome move?
) and D-air gimps. Actually there's alot of stuff I need to practice. Dammit @
Shaya
you got me to not give up on Swordfighter
Yup. Some of the frustration of players who main lesser-played characters comes from the feeling that their character is 'ignored'. That their main may possibly be super super good, but nobody is helping develop their meta. It can feel frustrating for sure.It's like asking questions about your character then spending time playing (often alone) to figure it out.
I labbed Marth's neutral air in Brawl hardddddddd, that's how I discovered it's super sweet spot on the second swing
And then Sakurai discovered it and decided it was too strong. So was a single low jump fastfalled FAir, apparently.It's like asking questions about your character then spending time playing (often alone) to figure it out.
Making discoveries then trying to test them further.
I labbed Marth's neutral air in Brawl hardddddddd, that's how I discovered it's super sweet spot on the second swing
I'm totally cool with it. I know my character is booty in a lot of ways, and I certainly don't begrudge people that play better characters than mine.
where did that say conda did that?
Conda
just cuz i feel the need to now since i have to say it that one sentece was not about u that was high lighted its was some one else i even clarified last page by someone else saying what post it was. sorry if u missed that. also on that note i never said youdid anything really? u were the one that accused me becaue of my post towwards another person witch u did not read nor get the full story off of.
i was not really fighting more like apologizing and clarifiying miss conceptions and feelings...Call me Cobbs guys, conda feels awkward and was a random one I chose a looong time ago.
No mo' fighting. We all be coo'.
@ something Cobbs said pages back along the lines of "the meta will become which characters can go toe to toe with an optimally played diddy"
The meta will not stay like this. The meta will undoubtedly become "which characters can go toe to toe with the characters who go toe to toe with Diddy?" Maybe Falcon has a very good matchup against Sheik, who in turn beats OR is more popular than Diddy. Maybe Diddy:ZSS is 70:30, but ZSS has a slight advantage over Sheik and Falcon. I can see the top few characters being the only tournament viable ones but I don't think it will come down to who can compete with Diddy, rather who can compete with all viable characters.
Results from this weekends big tourneys (spoiler: Diddy wins):
http://paragon.challonge.com/orlando_2015_smash4_singles
http://challonge.com/FBSSB4Singles
No order within tiers, based roughly on my earlier post and Shaya's too.
Top:
High:
Upper:
Lower:
Wft has shown examples of spacing and neutral game can get her far. her edge game shows competence are is hard to punish with out serious risk. and simply have fast (enough) options to take care of herself. along with a decent projectile.
That! was impressive
Trampoline though. And that's not nearly enough to put him in lower, when you see everything else he has going for him.
as its been pointed out before it really means nothing till we trully see it applied in high level play.
/
Interesting! But I'm curious as to why Robin is in 1? Seems like he'd be a mid tier somewhere in 2I've been in these parts for so long, so I'm gonna put down my pre-emptive tier list. No scientific data makes this tier list super credible and useful.
I'm usually against tier list posts, but I owe myself just this one, I've waited long enough.
Tiers are not a factor as to what character will win a tournament, but rather how dependable I find their moveset/traits to be for consistent solo-use results in competitive play. My judging tends to focus a lot on the options a character has during a fight, and in different situations.
No ordering within tiers.
Top
1
2
3
3 is NOT 'bottom tier'. I don't think there will be a 'so freaking bad' tier in Smash 4, at least for the next year or so. Those in tier '3' are still viable, but are imo less wise choices for competitive 1v1 play.
Statements:
Yes, I think MK is good. Think of him like a brawler archetype if you find his range to be poor, he still has good moves and, once we see his playstyle adjusted, I think he'll have what it takes to be a versatile fighter that can go up against top-tiers by virtue of multiple jumps, quick aerials, and good grab game - these give him options, which to me makes him have potential.
Move along now. Back to the discussion
I believe that he'll become a threat again once people play him at a higher level. Nobody is really doing that yet, not really even Nairo. There's so much room for him to grow, like MANY characters in my tier 1 and 2 that account for their placement. This is an important factor to keep in mind, and my tier list as a result does have an element of 'future-accommodation' built in. Nairo believes Robin is high for sure, but is super hard to play, and that's exactly how I feel.
Ah. And that's exactly what I like to see. A tier list based on potential rather than the tunnel-vision, "what seems good right now"
That's how I see the game. The meta is young, but when I work in the lab I see things in characters that just 'click', and my observer-status while playing Smash (I commentate and watch more than I play) gives me a less attached perspective to character potential.
*ganons low muble grumble*I've been in these parts for so long, so I'm gonna put down my pre-emptive tier list. No scientific data makes this tier list super credible and useful.
I'm usually against tier list posts, but I owe myself just this one, I've waited long enough.
Tiers are not a factor as to what character will win a tournament, but rather how dependable I find their moveset/traits to be for consistent solo-use results in competitive play. My judging tends to focus a lot on the options a character has during a fight, and in different situations.
Tiers go from Top to 1-3. 3 is NOT 'bottom tier'. I don't think there will be a 'so freaking bad' tier in Smash 4, at least for the next year or so. I think the tiers above do what those in '3' do, but better.
No ordering within tiers.
Top
1
2
3
Statements:
Yes, I think MK is good. Think of him like a brawler archetype if you find his range to be poor, he still has good moves and, once we see his playstyle adjusted, I think he'll have what it takes to be a versatile fighter that can go up against top-tiers by virtue of multiple jumps, quick aerials, and good grab game - these give him options, which to me makes him have potential.
Move along now. Back to the discussion
My placement for Bowser is due to me feeling the other heavies, while sacrificing some of Bowser's punch, are more secure in their versatility and options. Bowser can get predictable and doesn't have too many surprise options, especially in the air. This is important in many matchups, and a top-level player who wants to take advantage of Bowser's weaknesses can very easily. I feel this is harder to do against DK (speedy attacks) and Charizard (superarmor, amongst other things).
Curious about your thoughts on Mega Man and Bowser in particular. Moreso Mega Man, though I find it interesting that Bowser's down there with Dedede and Ganondorf when he's usually been considered the heavy just behind DK in most posts I've read in here.I've been in these parts for so long, so I'm gonna put down my pre-emptive tier list. No scientific data makes this tier list super credible and useful.
I'm usually against tier list posts, but I owe myself just this one, I've waited long enough.
Tiers are not a factor as to what character will win a tournament, but rather how dependable I find their moveset/traits to be for consistent solo-use results in competitive play. My judging tends to focus a lot on the options a character has during a fight, and in different situations.
Tiers go from Top to 1-3. 3 is NOT 'bottom tier'. I don't think there will be a 'so freaking bad' tier in Smash 4, at least for the next year or so. I think the tiers above do what those in '3' do, but better.
No ordering within tiers.
Top
1
2
3
Statements:
Yes, I think MK is good. Think of him like a brawler archetype if you find his range to be poor, he still has good moves and, once we see his playstyle adjusted, I think he'll have what it takes to be a versatile fighter that can go up against top-tiers by virtue of multiple jumps, quick aerials, and good grab game - these give him options, which to me makes him have potential.
Move along now. Back to the discussion
I wrote about Bowser right before you posted.
Conda
and @Pazx) and is closer to Yoshi levels of 'good'.
Regarding G&W, he has options that offer large reward in multiple situations during a fight. He's not played optimally yet (GimR is kind of close, but no cigar yet as he's basically on his own). He has great tools, but they've yet to fully come together in a fight. I feel he'll be one of the 'hes light but it dont matter' characters in Smash 4, similar to Jiggly.
I was close to feeling that a few days ago, until I learned that she has attacks and abilities that are flat out better than most characters. It's up to a player to tie them all together, but if you're looking for a basic "this character has smash attacks, good tilts, a good recovery, a good projectile, good mixups, good kill power, good combos, etc", then ZSS is my go-to. She's my idea of an ideal all-rounder in Smash 4 who happens to be one of the fastest speedsters too, and one of the hardest-hitting characters in the game. She can do it all, but has so much more going for her than most of the cast.
She doesn't flat out lose to anyone and has one of the best sheik MU's. Her neutral isn't the best neutral in the game but her punish game might be and she is pretty good at getting out of disadvantous situations.One of the top players in my area uses ZSS and I've faced off against him a couple times. My impressions of ZSS are that she has incredible mobility but commits to moves in a way that characters can punish her for and this prevents her from being in that top 5 region. Laser and downB can both be unsafe, especially against an opponent who is at close range can shield them. Her crazy Uair strings are painful, but some characters will reset to the ledge and now she has to work again to put them into the air.
Some characters will just win the neutral against her and overtake her. Because of that I feel she doesn't dominate the cast in the same way the others in that tier do (@
His customs seem like they can really improve his game too. Judgement goes from being pure luck, to a sheild pressuring monster.
i totally get that very few player manage to keep thing fresh with bowser. those are the most effective ones to in my opinion.I wrote about Bowser right before you posted.
Regarding MegaMan, he's super solid. However, I'm not sold at all on his versatility and I think pressure can cause him to go off his game in a big way. Resetting to neutral is important for him, yet he can't force it against a large portion of the cast. His lemons are great and keep him up there, as the skill ceiling for their utilization is very high. This keeps him at a sort of 'mid' point, but skill can cause him to stand his ground and deal with pressure - exactly how others in that tier operate, I feel.
I think he has trouble being unpredictable, and he gets low reward from hits besides blade->followup in close range. But this is risky and MegaMan's options are punishable in the range he's strong in - mid range. Again, he's strong and I think he could take a large regional tournament when eventually played optimally, because his lemons could mean that much in interrupting any top-tier opponent, but I don't feel he capitalizes from them enough to really grant him a big enough one-up even when he does well. He has to play honest and play harder than his opponent.
I can't understand your logic. But purposely limiting yourself at the character select screen is a handicap. Being loyal to a character is silly. You should play the characters that give you the best chances of winning. Top tiers give you that chance.
Umm, you forgot ROB LolI've been in these parts for so long, so I'm gonna put down my pre-emptive tier list. No scientific data makes this tier list super credible and useful.
I'm usually against tier list posts, but I owe myself just this one, I've waited long enough.
Tiers are not a factor as to what character will win a tournament, but rather how dependable I find their moveset/traits to be for consistent solo-use results in competitive play. My judging tends to focus a lot on the options a character has during a fight, and in different situations.
Tiers go from Top to 1-3. 3 is NOT 'bottom tier'. I don't think there will be a 'so freaking bad' tier in Smash 4, at least for the next year or so. I think the tiers above do what those in '3' do, but better.
No ordering within tiers.
Top
1
2
3
Statements:
Yes, I think MK is good. Think of him like a brawler archetype if you find his range to be poor, he still has good moves and, once we see his playstyle adjusted, I think he'll have what it takes to be a versatile fighter that can go up against top-tiers by virtue of multiple jumps, quick aerials, and good grab game - these give him options, which to me makes him have potential.
Move along now. Back to the discussion
