Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

How someone chooses to win is up to them. If they can win.

Oh Come On @ Conda see what i mean?

If you aren't already successful with your character, the likelihood of becoming competitive at a high or top level won't come from any other action but playing better characters - because you aren't already at that level of Smash where you could be a regional or national threat, where at this stage the character diversity is good but already focused.

A better character may not always be purely because of numbers, options are everything, and the better characters tend to not only have the best, but a lot of them. No matter what, you need to be aware of all of these options to compete and it is naturally easier to become comfortable with their existence when you're using them in training.

 

[thehard]

Rosalina has no business being in top 5 if we're to look at Sheik and Diddy as the baseline. Top 10 is much more accurate.

Who else plays her but Dabuz nowadays?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I can't understand your logic. But purposely limiting yourself at the character select screen is a handicap. Being loyal to a character is silly. You should play the characters that give you the best chances of winning. Top tiers give you that chance.

One of the worst things you can do is invest too much time in a low tier character. Take all that work and put it into a top tier and you got something. Being good with a bad character is kinda like pissing in the wind.

How someone chooses to win is up to them. If they can win.

Shaya pretty much summed it up, albeit bitterly.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luco]

One thing I'll mention about people playing low tier characters. I will tell people coming into the competitive scene who use low tier characters that their characters have flaws that can be exploited by other characters, however I will also tell them that in the past, low tier heroes have emerged and that everybody loves those players, so by all means they should go for it.

I have so much respect for low tier players. Soooooo much respect. I also have a lot of respect for people who stick by their characters no matter what *evil grin*

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY You'll find that a love of a character can trump winning with that character. The logic of it is skewed because people are feeling an emotional investment towards either a purpose (winning with a low tier character) or a character themself (it's not that outlandish, we put so much emotion into the things that aren't real anyway). With that in mind, it's easy to see why people use lower tiered characters.

Anyway, on the topic of ZSS...

I agree that she's a powerful all-rounder. However her kill power has been nerfed from Brawl (somehow? Nintendo said they "powered her up" of all things lol.) and I don't find her smash attacks to be overly special (You can DI out of Fsmash, Usmash isn't powerful, Dsmash still stuns but it's not what it used to be). She's good at getting out of disadvantage but like... I dunno. Also being light but tall doesn't exactly help her case. I get her to like 110/120 and then cooking time is over and she's ready for a serving of Bthrow. >_>

I just feel like ZSS doesn't have anything that makes her ridiculously 'unfair' like everyone else around her. I think she's great, but I don't think her character traits, results and whatnot are at the level of those around her. And evidently several ZSS mains share this idea (SFP is the most vocal about it here).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

One thing I'll mention about people playing low tier characters. I will tell people coming into the competitive scene who use low tier characters that their characters have flaws that can be exploited by other characters, however I will also tell them that in the past, low tier heroes have emerged and that everybody loves those players, so by all means they should go for it.

I have so much respect for low tier players. Soooooo much respect. I also have a lot of respect for people who stick by their characters no matter what *evil grin*

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY You'll find that a love of a character can trump winning with that character. The logic of it is skewed because people are feeling an emotional investment towards either a purpose (winning with a low tier character) or a character themself (it's not that outlandish, we put so much emotion into the things that aren't real anyway). With that in mind, it's easy to see why people use lower tiered characters.

Anyway, on the topic of ZSS...

I agree that she's a powerful all-rounder. However her kill power has been nerfed from Brawl (somehow? Nintendo said they "powered her up" of all things lol.) and I don't find her smash attacks to be overly special (You can DI out of Fsmash, Usmash isn't powerful, Dsmash still stuns but it's not what it used to be). She's good at getting out of disadvantage but like... I dunno. Also being light but tall doesn't exactly help her case. I get her to like 110/120 and then cooking time is over and she's ready for a serving of Bthrow. >_>

I just feel like ZSS doesn't have anything that makes her ridiculously 'unfair' like everyone else around her. I think she's great, but I don't think her character traits, results and whatnot are at the level of those around her. And evidently several ZSS mains share this idea (SFP is the most vocal about it here).

ZZS normals havebeen powered up quite noticeably in my opinion.

 

[David Viran]

One thing I'll mention about people playing low tier characters. I will tell people coming into the competitive scene who use low tier characters that their characters have flaws that can be exploited by other characters, however I will also tell them that in the past, low tier heroes have emerged and that everybody loves those players, so by all means they should go for it.

I have so much respect for low tier players. Soooooo much respect. I also have a lot of respect for people who stick by their characters no matter what *evil grin*

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY You'll find that a love of a character can trump winning with that character. The logic of it is skewed because people are feeling an emotional investment towards either a purpose (winning with a low tier character) or a character themself (it's not that outlandish, we put so much emotion into the things that aren't real anyway). With that in mind, it's easy to see why people use lower tiered characters.

Anyway, on the topic of ZSS...

I agree that she's a powerful all-rounder. However her kill power has been nerfed from Brawl (somehow? Nintendo said they "powered her up" of all things lol.) and I don't find her smash attacks to be overly special (You can DI out of Fsmash, Usmash isn't powerful, Dsmash still stuns but it's not what it used to be). She's good at getting out of disadvantage but like... I dunno. Also being light but tall doesn't exactly help her case. I get her to like 110/120 and then cooking time is over and she's ready for a serving of Bthrow. >_>

I just feel like ZSS doesn't have anything that makes her ridiculously 'unfair' like everyone else around her. I think she's great, but I don't think her character traits, results and whatnot are at the level of those around her. And evidently several ZSS mains share this idea (SFP is the most vocal about it here).

How has it been nerfed. She had basically Bair on brawl and now up b kills even earlier than that did and her Bair still hits hard. Fsmash can be DIed out of just like every move but can still pack a punch.

 

[Luco]

How has it been nerfed. She had basically Bair on brawl and now up b kills even earlier than that did and her Bair still hits hard. Fsmash can be DIed out of just like every move but can still pack a punch.

Well, no, she didn't, because in Brawl her Uair actually killed at insanely early percents (but people forget that because now it's combo fodder, though granted it still does kill at around 130-ish?), both Fair and Bair seemed to kill at the same percents if not noticably earlier, and if nothing else sideB killed at mid-late percents. Now she has Bair that (seems to) kill slightly later, I don't know what's with Fair, Uair definitely kills later, and upB has replaced sideB as a decent kill move, which is considerably less safe. Granted her Fsmash was awful in Brawl but it now still reminds me of like, Pit's Fsmash, which honestly isn't that much better or won't be over time as people DI it better...

Also her dash attack is nowhere near safe now where it once was really quite good.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, no, she didn't, because in Brawl her Uair actually killed at insanely early percents (but people forget that because now it's combo fodder, though granted it still does kill at around 130-ish?), both Fair and Bair seemed to kill at the same percents if not noticably earlier, and if nothing else sideB killed at mid-late percents. Now she has Bair that (seems to) kill slightly later, I don't know what's with Fair, Uair definitely kills later, and upB has replaced sideB as a decent kill move, which is considerably less safe. Granted her Fsmash was awful in Brawl but it now still reminds me of like, Pit's Fsmash, which honestly isn't that much better or won't be over time as people DI it better...

Also her dash attack is nowhere near safe now where it once was really quite good.

in smash 4 everything kill later.
but diddy

 

[Conda]

Umm, you forgot ROB Lol

Woops, he's in 1.

Oh Come On @ Conda see what i mean?

Not everyone's advice has to be listened to. If your focus isn't on winning with a different character, then focus on improving with your chosen character.

Playing a high tier character (as of now in the early months, this means 'proven character') gives you a better chance to win for many complex game-related reasons. @ Shaya summed it up.
That doesn't mean that's the ONLY ROAD to playing competitive smash, or even winning. You may be able to win if you main Kirby. But nobody here would give you that advice - that's a passion-based decision for a passionate player to make.

He should not have to apologize. If what he said doesn't apply to you, then don't follow his advice. You gotta have thicker skin like that if you're gonna go down the more rocky road of maining an unproven character. We've spoken about this in the past 2 pages, lets move on.

(also off topic, but put more effort into the wording and syntax in your posts. We're all pulling our weight here for sake of communication and such. Cheers )

 

[DanGR]

Who else plays her but Dabuz nowadays?

A few here and there, but no one else is winning tournaments in difficult regions or even coming close.

Even on a theoretical level she's limited.

 

[Chuva]

It's not exactly raw kill power that makes ZSS scary, it's her kill setups. Paralyzer, DSmash, DownB, Dthrow, Jab1, UAir...there are a handful of moves that will either directly lead to FSmash/UpB or will leave you in a very bad position where you need to guess her follow-up at the risk of eating an UpB, an offstage Flip Jump spike etc

 

[Luco]

in smash 4 everything kill later.
but diddy

Not true - Sheik has always had trouble killing, and if anything Bowser kills even earlier than in Brawl. I've heard things about Marth killing with fully charged tipper Fsmashes at like 25-30%. Ness Bthrow - even without rage - kills hilariously early on the majority of the cast, it's about as powerful as it was in Brawl. So is Bair too, for that matter.

Like every smash game, character traits have gotten mixed and matched around. Some have become stronger in some areas, stayed the same in others, become weaker in more areas still. ZSS to me reflects a character that has become significantly different but ever so slightly nerfed in kill power at the 'trade off' of seemingly having greater stage control and better combos at early percents.

In fact @ Chuva , you'll find that the '50/50' guess chance of dying to one of her combos is far better than a guaranteed kill that only fails if ZSS is sleeping on the job (what was once Dsmash ---> dsmash ---> Bair has become Dthrow ---> Uair... I know which one I prefer).

ZSS has an easier time with her combos this iteration of smash (because it relies on her getting a grab rather than a Dsmash and grabs beat shields) but a tether grab is still a weakness and her combos were more reliable in Brawl when you did get them off. I don't see how you can sit there and tell me this character has ridiculous strengths that poop on half the cast in the same way diddy does - these two characters do not deserve to be in the same tier.

EDIT: I need to quickly run out to the store and grab something to eat, but I'll respond to anything when I get back.

Also I'd just like to mention that ZSS' Uair can backfire on her - I remember in a particular instance versus Kira he Dthrowed me and came up for the Uair but I FF AD cancelled into a Uair myself, which killed him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Woops, he's in 1.


Not everyone's advice has to be listened to. If your focus isn't on winning with a different character, then focus on improving with your chosen character.

Playing a high tier character (as of now in the early months, this means 'proven character') gives you a better chance to win for many complex game-related reasons. @ Shaya summed it up.
That doesn't mean that's the ONLY ROAD to playing competitive smash, or even winning. You may be able to win if you main Kirby. But nobody here would give you that advice - that's a passion-based decision for a passionate player to make.

He should not have to apologize. If what he said doesn't apply to you, then don't follow his advice. You gotta have thicker skin like that if you're gonna go down the more rocky road of maining an unproven character. We've spoken about this in the past 2 pages, lets move on.

(also off topic, but put more effort into the wording and syntax in your posts. We're all pulling our weight here for sake of communication and such. Cheers )

lol just wanted to show u what i was on about really.

Anyway new labtop new problems sorry i'll looking improving my writing xd
it why u find me editing my posts like 800 times.

*edit* on the last note please dont insinuate that i deserve or am asking anymore than i wrote thank u.

 

[mimgrim]

Dammit I hate this game (not really).

I'm like 99.99% sure that I now know the characters I WANT to play but can't due to not being able to play them like I want (as in not being able to have access to set-up I want) which makes it not worth it for me. For those curious the 2 characters are short/fat Gunner with a 3232 set-up and Charizard with a 1313 set-up. Custom moves are both the best and worst thing to ever happen.

Screw it. Imma just play Sheik until, hopefuly, customs get turned on and Miis get allowed more then just 1111 and average weight/size (Hell, I'd be happy is just Miis were allowed their full customization since they don't require Custom turned one but nooo that would be "unfair"). But hey, at least it will give me a competent pocket to fall back on if what I want happens and those 2 just can't cut it for me.

 

[David Viran]

Well, no, she didn't, because in Brawl her Uair actually killed at insanely early percents (but people forget that because now it's combo fodder, though granted it still does kill at around 130-ish?), both Fair and Bair seemed to kill at the same percents if not noticably earlier, and if nothing else sideB killed at mid-late percents. Now she has Bair that (seems to) kill slightly later, I don't know what's with Fair, Uair definitely kills later, and upB has replaced sideB as a decent kill move, which is considerably less safe. Granted her Fsmash was awful in Brawl but it now still reminds me of like, Pit's Fsmash, which honestly isn't that much better or won't be over time as people DI it better...

Also her dash attack is nowhere near safe now where it once was really quite good.

Up b kills way earlier than side b did and can be set up into or used as a really good oos option. Uair in brawl killed that early when you were near the top though and fair in brawl you could DI the first hit at kill percents and avoid the second.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In Brawl, ZSS was one of the earliest killers in the game and now she's just average at it unless you land up-b near the top of the screen or something.

The biggest buffs for ZSS going into Smash 4 have to do with the frame data on nair and uair making them real life approaches and giving ZSS the ability to play aggressively. Really nothing else changed for the better (well, maybe fsmash) and every other change is a lateral move at best. Grab recovery is lower too I guess.

 

[Luco]

Up b kills way earlier than side b did and can be set up into or used as a really good oos option. Uair in brawl killed that early when you were near the top though and fair in brawl you could DI the first hit at kill percents and avoid the second.

I believe that problem remains in smash 4 that her Fair can be DIed out of.

UpB does indeed kill considerably earlier than sideB but is WAYYYY less safe, even in the air where her Uairs are setting up into it. And Uair killed earlier in Brawl at whatever percentage. I've been killed by that thing at like 90/100 before, whereas now it takes an extra 30% or so for a similar thing to happen.

 

[David Viran]

I believe that problem remains in smash 4 that her Fair can be DIed out of.

UpB does indeed kill considerably earlier than sideB but is WAYYYY less safe, even in the air where her Uairs are setting up into it. And Uair killed earlier in Brawl at whatever percentage. I've been killed by that thing at like 90/100 before, whereas now it takes an extra 30% or so for a similar thing to happen.

No I'm pretty sure it connects better and up b comes out on frame 4 as long as you know when to use it you shouldn't be punished to often.

 

[Luco]

No I'm pretty sure it connects better and up b comes out on frame 4 as long as you know when to use it you shouldn't be punished to often.

How is "knowing when to use it" an excuse for this move? Dude, making a commitment this big on a 50/50 chance (Uair ---> upB is not a true combo and can be AD-ed) is not something I consider the best investment. It has its uses and currently it seems to be decent; but I've dodged it before and given the guy that tried it a wonder of punishment. It's not about when it comes out, it's about when it finishes!

As for Fair I can't comment and wouldn't know; but I'm still convinced it doesn't kill earlier than in Brawl. SFP is right; her kill power is just average now.

EDIT: And I reallyyyyy need to go to the store, so I'll be back soon. As I've mentioned, I don't think ZSS compares to the other top 4 characters that are in those tiers. I don't see how she's better than someone like Pikachu who would also be vying for that spot.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Realistically can we just chop up nairo's wins with pit simply to player skill? as well as the only one person actually getting results with said character should we really be placing the pits all that high? multiple people have been clearly showing pit not be there choice in character.

Its like the same thing with dk Will's the only one who seem to be getting any serious results. but thats just one person, should be really be considering such characters at there current placements?

*edit* On top of that iv deffinitly have not seen any tourny winning nesses other than nakat as well, something we should look at?

 

[Shaya]

Up-B kills pretty well still >_>

Double jumping into people and getting ff ad'd through is a mistake, not a character deficiency (Ness just happens to be really dumb at this).

Fair will not combo with people holding away at max range usually, but the first hit is pretty good at knocking people into the ground, especially platforms for guaranteed lasers and stuff.

Her jab got buffed.
Her up air got nerfed kinda, its slower start up now but hits a lot larger than before and her animation for it is pretty amazing.
Up-B can not be understated in terms of strength. 4 frames OoS.
Grab can get spot dodges and the end of rolls, making it possible to cover multiple options it couldn't in Brawl.
Her angled forward tilts are better, overall it's probably one of the best in the game with it's extra high heels swoosh disjoint.
Back air is large and has a similar to ftilt silly heel disjoint.
I think comparatively to the cast, the range of these things is kinda crazy.
Dash attack has it's drawbacks and strengths.

Oh and people are saying ZSS dominates the cast like Diddy?
I mean, sure, she can. But is that even the argument here? Does anyone dominate the cast like Diddy? Even with this stipulation in mind he may not be the best character.

Up air -> up-b does combo at the right times/angles/accelerations/decelerations of your jumps and fast falls/etc

 

[Lavani]

Who else plays her but Dabuz nowadays?

Xaltis placed 4th with her (and Peach) at Paragon. Representation for the character has generally been low though.

(Uair ---> upB is not a true combo and can be AD-ed)

Not only is it a true combo, it's so lenient that you can do it late, only poke with the last hits, and still get it to connect. The hitstun on uair is insane.

Realistically can we just chop up nairo's wins with pit simply to player skill? as well as the only one person actually getting results with said character should we really be placing the pits all that high? multiple people have been clearly showing pit not be there choice in character.

Its like the same thing with dk Will's the only one who seem to be getting any serious results. but thats just one person, should be really be considering such characters at there current placements?

Pit was getting results in Japan, though I admit my interest in the character is low so I haven't followed that for a good while so I don't know if he's dropped off.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Up-B kills pretty well still >_>

Double jumping into people and getting ff ad'd through is a mistake, not a character deficiency.

Fair will not combo with people holding away at max range usually, but the first hit is pretty good at knocking people into the ground, especially platforms for guaranteed lasers and stuff.

Her jab got buffed.
Her up air got nerfed kinda, its slower start up now but hits a lot larger than before and her animation for it is pretty amazing.
Up-B can not be understated in terms of strength. 4 frames OoS.
Grab can get spot dodges and the end of rolls, making it possible to cover multiple options it couldn't in Brawl.
Her angled forward tilts are better, overall it's probably one of the best in the game with it's extra high heels swoosh disjoint.
Back air is large and has a similar to ftilt silly heel disjoint.
I think comparatively to the cast, the range of these things is kinda crazy.
Dash attack has it's drawbacks and strengths.

Oh and people are saying ZSS dominates the cast like Diddy?
I mean, sure, she can. But is that even the argument here? Does anyone dominate the cast like Diddy? Even with this stipulation in mind he may not be the best character.

Up air -> up-b does combo at the right times/angles/accelerations/decelerations of your jumps and fast falls/etc

when argueing semantics anything goes really. we can only wait till we see it in practice and being effective in mutiple players hands?

 

[Kofu]

His customs seem like they can really improve his game too. Judgement goes from being pure luck, to a sheild pressuring monster.

Edit: that's if customs are ever allowed in the future

Chiming in, Chain Judge is great at pressuring shields (at least with the higher numbers) but I doubt it's always the best option. In my experience most of the time you'll be using Judge in the air, and that's just not quite as effective when the hit you land isn't one decisive blow (landed a classic 8 to 9 Judge combo today, was fun). However, Chain Judge does more damage on average, pressures shields better, doesn't hurt you with 1s, and doesn't have a random effect that can throw Game & Watch off as much as the opponent.

If any if his customs are game-changing, they're his Up-B customs. Heavy Trampoline does at least twice the damage of the default and has much more knockback, giving him a more reliable aerial kill move. Trampoline Launch only hits at the start of the move but is crazy powerful, killing around 110% IIRC. It also enables him to act quicker out of Up-B for better attack strings.

I was going to respond to something else but now I forgot! It probably had to do with kill power/options/setups though. One reliable kill move can be enough if the character has the setups to land it consistently. Strong kill power in a handful of moves is nice but if they're hard to land they don't mean anything. And then, of course, you can have basically everything be a kill move. I mentioned that it was nice for Falcon that Raptor Boost is a kill move now and his response was "Falcon's everything is a kill move now." I couldn't disagree. On that note, I laugh when Falcons use Raptor Boost as an early stock read. It does laughable damage (9%) and stops him from following up with more attacks! It's great.

His rapid jab end has way too much reach though. Ever go into training and see how far in front of him it reaches? It's disgusting. (Kirby's is similar but it's Kirby so who cares)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Chiming in, Chain Judge is great at pressuring shields (at least with the higher numbers) but I doubt it's always the best option. In my experience most of the time you'll be using Judge in the air, and that's just not quite as effective when the hit you land isn't one decisive blow (landed a classic 8 to 9 Judge combo today, was fun). However, Chain Judge does more damage on average, pressures shields better, doesn't hurt you with 1s, and doesn't have a random effect that can throw Game & Watch off as much as the opponent.

If any if his customs are game-changing, they're his Up-B customs. Heavy Trampoline does at least twice the damage of the default and has much more knockback, giving him a more reliable aerial kill move. Trampoline Launch only hits at the start of the move but is crazy powerful, killing around 110% IIRC. It also enables him to act quicker out of Up-B for better attack strings.

I was going to respond to something else but now I forgot! It probably had to do with kill power/options/setups though. One reliable kill move can be enough if the character has the setups to land it consistently. Strong kill power in a handful of moves is nice but if they're hard to land they don't mean anything. And then, of course, you can have basically everything be a kill move. I mentioned that it was nice for Falcon that Raptor Boost is a kill move now and his response was "Falcon's everything is a kill move now." I couldn't disagree. On that note, I laugh when Falcons use Raptor Boost as an early stock read. It does laughable damage (9%) and stops him from following up with more attacks! It's great.

His rapid jab end has way too much reach though. Ever go into training and see how far in front of him it reaches? It's disgusting. (Kirby's is similar but it's Kirby so who cares)

kirby players?

 

[Kofu]

kirby players?

But, see, it's a GOOD thing for them and it just makes escaping their rapid jab harder. I'm complaining about a hitbox that has no semblance of matching the animation or reality. Falcon/Kirby end their series of punches by brandishing their fist/stub and that inexplicably hurts characters a foot in front of them. Most rapid jabs have a longer-reaching finishing blow but in most cases the hitbox leans forward or visibly expands. Not in this case.

Wow, that was longer than I expected it would be.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

But, see, it's a GOOD thing for them and it just makes escaping their rapid jab harder. I'm complaining about a hitbox that has no semblance of matching the animation or reality. Falcon/Kirby end their series of punches by brandishing their fist/stub and that inexplicably hurts characters a foot in front of them. Most rapid jabs have a longer-reaching finishing blow but in most cases the hitbox leans forward or visibly expands. Not in this case.

Wow, that was longer than I expected it would be.

short miss interpreted sentences, makeing people work hard since internet.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I still think pikachu is tad over rated. I am also ready for some good yoshis to finally step up to the plate. I still feel yoshi is a top 8 character tho it seems like most of you don't. I just feel we don't have any amazing US yoshi players yet. He's the one character I feel has the tools to take on any mu and he definitely doesn't have many losing MUs(the ones he has are 6-4 at worst). Kill power speed projectile this character has it all. He's the one character I play as where I feel I can just throw out stuff and not have to worry. I hope at apex we see some good yoshis but I doubt we will. I think tho down the road maybe closer to evo some will emerge and prove this character is top tier.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I still think pikachu is tad over rated. I am also ready for some good yoshis to finally step up to the plate. I still feel yoshi is a top 8 character tho it seems like most of you don't. I just feel we don't have any amazing US yoshi players yet. He's the one character I feel has the tools to take on any mu and he definitely doesn't have many losing MUs(the ones he has are 6-4 at worst). Kill power speed projectile this character has it all. He's the one character I play as where I feel I can just throw out stuff and not have to worry. I hope at apex we see some good yoshis but I doubt we will. I think tho down the road maybe closer to evo some will emerge and prove this character is top tier.

What! u can just thow out grabs and not worry? or does that not count as stuff?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

What! u can just thow out grabs and not worry? or does that not count as stuff?

I don't grab unless it's a punish with yoshi silly rabbit. Everything else tho yes. Good yoshis don't just go for unsafe grabs.

Just like good diddys don't use his horrible jab.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't grab unless it's a punish with yoshi silly rabbit. Everything else tho yes. Good yoshis don't just go for unsafe grabs.

Just like good diddys don't use his horrible jab.

that will always be his crux then. just like eveybody else with tether grabs. but yoshi does not even get the perks ledge tethering.

 

[Luco]

Not only is it a true combo, it's so lenient that you can do it late, only poke with the last hits, and still get it to connect. The hitstun on uair is insane.

Alright, I stand corrected then.

@ Shaya the reason I brought that up was because of the two tier lists posted recented by Pazx and Cobbs, which both include ZSS in their top tier along with Rosaluma, Sonic, Sheik and Diddy. My assertion is that ZSS is not up to par with the others in this tier, thus why I mentioned Diddy and why I said she's not up to his level. What do you mean by 'she can' though? Because if there's a solid argument for that then I'd actually be quite interested.

My current viewpoint of ZSS suggests a strong character that should in be in the same tier as all the other 'strong' characters - what does she do that puts her in the same tier as these big 4 characters?

 

[Conda]

Alright, I stand corrected then.

@ Shaya the reason I brought that up was because of the two tier lists posted recented by Pazx and Cobbs, which both include ZSS in their top tier along with Rosaluma, Sonic, Sheik and Diddy. My assertion is that ZSS is not up to par with the others in this tier, thus why I mentioned Diddy and why I said she's not up to his level. What do you mean by 'she can' though? Because if there's a solid argument for that then I'd actually be quite interested.

My current viewpoint of ZSS suggests a strong character that should in be in the same tier as all the other 'strong' characters - what does she do that puts her in the same tier as these big 4 characters?

My take currently is that she does what each of the all-rounders below her can do, but slightly better, faster, and with more range. She has combos, when many characters don't, but also stuff that characters who don't have combos have due to not having combos. If you catch my drift. It's clear who, design-wise, gets to have their cake & eat it too. She's a prime example.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

that will always be his crux then. just like eveybody else with tether grabs. but yoshi does not even get the perks ledge tethering.

i Agee about his grab being bad but the rest of the character makes up for its. He has fantastic buttons. I just think we will eventually see a player push this chaaracter and show off the potential. I feel out of the top 5 perceived characters sheik is the only one he loses too.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Alright, I stand corrected then.

@ Shaya the reason I brought that up was because of the two tier lists posted recented by Pazx and Cobbs, which both include ZSS in their top tier along with Rosaluma, Sonic, Sheik and Diddy. My assertion is that ZSS is not up to par with the others in this tier, thus why I mentioned Diddy and why I said she's not up to his level. What do you mean by 'she can' though? Because if there's a solid argument for that then I'd actually be quite interested.

My current viewpoint of ZSS suggests a strong character that should in be in the same tier as all the other 'strong' characters - what does she do that puts her in the same tier as these big 4 characters?

zero suit samus has a very tall hurt box in my opinion taller than even samus i most of the time. she has very little attacks that make her hurt box smaller or at least lower profile. ulike shiek who remains quite small for many of her animations.
i feel that would remain a problem for her if anything.

@ Vengeance_NS
if this were the case im sure pac man would not be bagged on as much either.
but i cant stress enough that no tool kit (unless an ultra safe command grab or somthing, witch egg lay is certainly not.) cant make up for having a bad grab.
even worse yoshi has like no low percent absolute combos off of it.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

zero suit samus has a very tall hurt box in my opinion taller than even samus i most of the time. she has very little attacks that make her hurt box smaller or at least lower profile. ulike shiek who remains quite small for many of her animations.
i feel that would remain a problem for her if anything.

@ Vengeance_NS
if this were the case im sure pac man would not be bagged on as much either.
but i cant stress enough that no tool kit (unless an ultra safe command grab or somthing, witch egg lay is certainly not.) cant make up for having a bad grab.
even worse yoshi has like no low percent absolute combos off of it.

So you think that any character with a bad grab will not be able to beat top tier characters or be top tier themselves?

Also what's ur views in a top tier character having a bad recovery? Diddy for instance once the meta evolves and people get more comfortable going off stage is that something we'll have to look at that could potentially make this character drop down a bit? If grabs prohibit yoshi from being considered a top 10 character is a questionable recovery going to do the same thing?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So you think that any character with a bad grab will not be able to beat top tier characters or be top tier themselves?

Thats all in the hands of the player. but what i can say is that statiscally speaking yoshi would have trouble against ganondorf. who values shield greatly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Her jab got buffed.
Her up air got nerfed kinda, its slower start up now but hits a lot larger than before and her animation for it is pretty amazing.
Up-B can not be understated in terms of strength. 4 frames OoS.
Grab can get spot dodges and the end of rolls, making it possible to cover multiple options it couldn't in Brawl.
Her angled forward tilts are better, overall it's probably one of the best in the game with it's extra high heels swoosh disjoint.
Back air is large and has a similar to ftilt silly heel disjoint.
I think comparatively to the cast, the range of these things is kinda crazy.
Dash attack has it's drawbacks and strengths.

- Sure, jab works now
- Up air is nothing but a nerf, there's nothing buffed about it. Hitbox is smaller, start-up is slower. It's safer on block by a small amount, but as a juggle/air bullying move it's worse.
- Yeah true
- Grab catches badly timed spot dodges, but this shouldn't really be relied on
- Her tilts overall are "better" in smash 4, but if I had to choose between brawl dtilt and smash 4 tilt / utilt I think the choice would be pretty obvious. As a set-up move ftilt just doesn't do the same job and they cover the same space in front, so this is probably more a nerf than anything unless you're just looking at ftilt in a vacuum.
- Back air is so much worse. It kills later, is LESS disjointed (not more), doesn't have a hitbox on her body, and has to be sweet spotted to kill.
- Brawl dash attack was way better >_>

For the record, I don't want to understate the changes she got as being insignificant, because they aren't:

- Jab is ridiculous, obviously
- Nair being safe on block is just crazy good, uair too. Combined with jab, the nair->jab frame trap->dash away or complete your jab is bull**** tbh.
- Up-B OOS is great, although shielding in general ain't what it used to be
- Recovery is probably better because down-b is flexible and you can re-used up-b after being hit (big problem for zss in brawl against MK and a few other characters)

But I'd say that if you put Smash 4 ZSS in Brawl it would be a significant nerf overall. The reason ZSS is good in Smash 4 is because most characters just got worse at everything.

 

[Kofu]

@ Conda (Cobbs) if I may chime in on Game & Watch just a bit more (tagging you since you liked my last post on him), he seems lime a character that's pretty average overall. His kill power (on his smashes, anyway) is pretty average. They all kill about the same percent (105-110%), which is decent, but he has troubles landing them. His range is pretty good but far from the best, his damage output is reasonable but not fantastic, and his attack speed varies from good to slow. In terms of extremes, he's the second lightest in the game but has a phenomenal recovery. Movement speed is alright (air speed is above average). He doesn't particularly excel at any one attribute, unless you call throwing out big ol' disjoints around him an attribute. In my experience he doesn't feel like he does better against the perceived low tiers (with the caveat here being that they're not even established!) than the high tiers, at least by any appreciable amount. I mean, sure, he probably loses to more of the high tiers than the low tiers but that's to be expected.

Two things that hold him back, IMO, are a very limited combo/attack string game and a complete lack of SH autocancel aerials (random question: does Diddy's FAir SHAC, if it does I'm going to complain to Sakurai). If his aerials autocanceled better his air-to-ground transitions would be infinitely more fluid which would benefit his game in many ways.

Incidentally, I promote the use of the term "low jump" (as termed by Nintendo in Smash 4) over the term "short hop," choosing to use short hop in this post due to better general understanding (if I wrote "LJ" instead if "SH" no one would know what I'm talking about). I've thought that "short hop" was kind of a dumb term for a while now, because no one describes jumping in Smash as a "hop" except in differentiating between "full hop" and "short hop" anyway. And I wouldn't be surprised if "short hop" came about just because it made "SHFFL" work as an acronym.

Man I've been on a soapbox tonight I'm just going to bed now to save people from my opinions and myself from further embarrassment

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So you think that any character with a bad grab will not be able to beat top tier characters or be top tier themselves?

Also what's ur views in a top tier character having a bad recovery? Diddy for instance once the meta evolves and people get more comfortable going off stage is that something we'll have to look at that could potentially make this character drop down a bit? If grabs prohibit yoshi from being considered a top 10 character is a questionable recovery going to do the same thing?

Now theres a good question. but be aware its also been proven that diddy's recovery is also quite flexible and can be unpredictable i belive ADHD made an example of this the most. but then we have to ask our selves. What is a questionable recovery? would falcons be considered weak? or would pits? i could come up with reason why both are weak. but its more along the lines of does it hinder the character? i dont think diddy's recovery hinders his offstage game very much. his recovery functions effectivly so i see no reason why diddy may sink because of recovery but thats me. on top of monkey flip.......