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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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Radical Larry

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Jams. Jams. As much as I cringe seeing how there's only one noteworthy Link and Ganondorf, I'm hoping that one of them makes it to an unexpected great result. I only wish that the Link player can just study and try his best against these people.

And am I going to be the only one who'll boo ZeRo and M2K?
 
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Pretty upsetting to see no Mewtwos in there. Man I wish KillerJawz came to Genesis. His mewtwo is by far the cleanest imo
thank you very much for the compliment friend <3

i hope abadango will put on a show for the mewtwos!
 
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san.

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"It's too early to talk about cloud's viability. He's only been out for 20 minutes"
*5 minutes later*
"Cloud is too strong guys"
*blinks*
"ALRIGHT SO LET'S TALK ABOUT BAYONETTA'S VERSATILITY"
Right now we only have our obsvervations to go by, nothing concrete.

After I looked through the hitboxes and frame data on Cloud's attacks and playing against some people such as SM (9th at 2gg Socal tournament), my opinion of him dropped quite a bit.
 

C0rvus

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I guess I shouldn't be surprised people forget this guy's ftilt exists...(:4metaknight:). Not to mention the Link's two-hit fsmash.

Her fair is a unique aerial at least.
I didn't forget it exists. Why you trying to undermine my point so hard fam? smh

Jams. Jams. As much as I cringe seeing how there's only one noteworthy Link and Ganondorf, I'm hoping that one of them makes it to an unexpected great result. I only wish that the Link player can just study and try his best against these people.

And am I going to be the only one who'll boo ZeRo and M2K?
Mind explaining why? The boo'ing I mean.
 
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Radical Larry

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thank you very much for the compliment friend <3

i hope abadango will put on a show for the mewtwos!
Did I hear Mewtwo player? Mind helping me with some match ups? I'm trying to explore Link vs Mewtwo so I don't get left behind.

Mind explaining why?

This sums it up. And as hilarious as it is, I think anyone would get the subtlety I'm putting behind this post with the video. I'm going to be honest, even though this video isn't even close to Smash related, it's related to me and ZeRo, and M2K.

If you don't get it, I just plain hate ZeRo for being me stronger than me, while M2K is the Namekian.
If that sums it up.
 
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C0rvus

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Did I hear Mewtwo player?




This sums it up. And as hilarious as it is, I think anyone would get the subtlety I'm putting behind this post with the video. I'm going to be honest, even though this video isn't even close to Smash related, it's related to me and ZeRo, and M2K.

Try guessing who Vegeta represents...
That doesn't answer my question. Are you jealous of them or something? Maybe I'm dumb but I'm lost lol.

And gross, DBZ Abridged? Man, you make it so hard to like you it's insane.

@people insisting talk about Cloud is pointless: let's just sit here with our thumbs up our asses while Clouds knock us out of bracket at locals and place high in regionals, eh?
 
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J-Lit

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Part of the point of tier lists are to reflect results. They're malleable and change a lot for that very reason. Theorycrafting is important and it's the reason we come up with new ideas that keep character metas going, but characters like Falcon and Donkey Kong simply do much better.

I'm not discrediting Earth, either. I'm just stating the fact that he hasn't pushed Pit like DKwill has pushed Donkey Kong.

Side note; Anybody have KTAR XVI results? I know Nairo won, but I'd like to see the Top 8 so I can add it to the results playbook.
I wouldn't say earth doesn't push pits meta as much as dkwill does with DK. This is the same man who double eliminated Ranai recently. He also has wins over 9B, rain, nietono, and some others I'm probably missing out on since I don't really follow the Japanese scene closely. The problem with pit is that he lacks a single good main in the US except for Nairo who rarely even uses him. We don't value Japanese results very highly unless it's some character like cloud or greninja who we wanna see shake up the meta. It's probably pretty standard in japan to see pit in top 15 and even characters like duck hunt in the middle of the tier list.
 

Wintropy

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After I looked through the hitboxes and frame data on Cloud's attacks and playing against some people such as SM (9th at 2gg Socal tournament), my opinion of him dropped quite a bit.
Now this is interesting. Mind explaining why?

I think you're one of the smartest guys here and your opinion means a lot to me. How did you feel about him prior to this? What, beyond frame data, inspired you to change your mind?
 

TMNTSSB4

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That doesn't answer my question. Are you jealous of them or something? Maybe I'm dumb but I'm lost lol.

An gross, DBZ Abridged? Man, you make it so hard to like you it's insane.

@people insisting talk about Cloud is pointless: let's just sit here with our thumbs up our ***** while Clouds knock us out of bracket at locals and place high in regionals, eh?
Team Four Star is awesome, how is it gross?
I wouldn't say earth doesn't push pits meta as much as dkwill does with DK. This is the same man who double eliminated Ranai recently. He also has wins over 9B, rain, nietono, and some others I'm probably missing out on since I don't really follow the Japanese scene closely. The problem with pit is that he lacks a single good main in the US except for Nairo who rarely even uses him. We don't value Japanese results very highly unless it's some character like cloud or greninja who we wanna see shake up the meta. It's probably pretty standard in japan to see pit in top 15 and even characters like duck hunt in the middle of the tier list.
Shouldn't Japanese results be valued in general? For Brawl's tier lists, Pit is top tier in Japan...but mid in America(maybe results worldwide should be equally valued depending on a character like Pit who gets better results outside the US)
 

Radical Larry

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That doesn't answer my question. Are you jealous of them or something? Maybe I'm dumb but I'm lost lol.

An gross, DBZ Abridged? Man, you make it so hard to like you it's insane.

@people insisting talk about Cloud is pointless: let's just sit here with our thumbs up our ***** while Clouds knock us out of bracket at locals and place high in regionals, eh?
Yes I'm jealous of them. After all, I just try and try with my characters and end up nowhere, while they get to have all of the tournaments to their discretion. Do you think I like being stuck in some deadbeat state that has so little representatives, that I try at least making a name for myself by trying to play a character like Link? Do you think I like staying at home watching tournaments instead of participating in them? Or that I like playing online mode, very little amounts of others and have laggy Anther matches?

Well I don't, okay? Do you know why day after day I attempt to try giving out arguments that I want to make valid, but always fall short? It's because I can't find ways to actually express them into a legitimate argument, I always fall short. I have trouble in everything in Smash, then when it comes to when I finally find something interesting that could make a character better, I always manage to screw THAT up! ZeRo makes it seem so easy to play this game, so easy to make arguments, well look at me, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum here. Even if I've had over a year's experience in this game, I just can't get better with Anthers. I want to go to tournaments with people, actual ones, but I never have the funding nor the transportation needed.

I'm jealous that they can manage to do that, I'm jealous they can make arguments and gameplay seem valid and easy, but look where I'm at, I can't make anything happen.

And even when I try fixing the mistakes, they already happened.
 

Sonicninja115

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Pretty upsetting to see no Mewtwos in there. Man I wish KillerJawz came to Genesis. His mewtwo is by far the cleanest imo


Edit: But Johnny Westside though...I think he may end up being the dark horse of this tourney. His Samus is absolutely insane.
Abadango has said he might go Mewtwo. There is always hope.
 

Sonicninja115

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Have you tried not being a whiny little *****?
I think that is against a couple of guidelines...

How long do you guys think it will be before the meta is advanced enough for characters like pit, DK and megaman to be finalized? To not be considered characters waiting for that gamechanging patch or AT?

I am hoping it will only be another year or two, but I was wondering what the general opinion is.
 

Yonder

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Abadango has said he might go Mewtwo. There is always hope.
It's gonna be very matchup dependant I think too, hence M2 being a secondary. Or maybe not. He went M2 vs Fox once, one of his worst. Then again when money is on the line at this scale, could also influence his decision on who he is most comfortable with.

We shall see...
 

Baby_Sneak

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I think that is against a couple of guidelines...

How long do you guys think it will be before the meta is advanced enough for characters like pit, DK and megaman to be finalized? To not be considered characters waiting for that gamechanging patch or AT?

I am hoping it will only be another year or two, but I was wondering what the general opinion is.
Easily at least a year. They have so few players compared to the top tiers that will have a more concrete meta than the lower tier characters. That'll probably skew the look on the game's balance and make it appear unbalanced with top tiers dominating the rest of the characters because of their highly fleshed-out meta when it could just be the lower tier characters are not as fleshed out. Kinda going into another topic, but the point you bring up makes me see that outcome for smash 4. Surely this time, we'll get some brawl ZSSes seen in this game.
 
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Wintropy

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Shouldn't Japanese results be valued in general? For Brawl's tier lists, Pit is top tier in Japan...but mid in America(maybe results worldwide should be equally valued depending on a character like Pit who gets better results outside the US)
This is a very good question. Japan's results definitely do get recognition over here in the west, but it ultimately doesn't impact too much on us because we're playing to a different meta than them: their relevant characters may differ from ours, because they favour a different kind of game than we do. It's important to note that Pit is very highly regarded in Japan, for sure, but it's worth remembering that the context isn't quite the same and western results will have a greater impact on western tier lists.

Genesis may well be a proving ground for the angels, since we'll have both Earth and Nairo (and I think Paseriman? I might be mistaken with that, I thought I saw his name somewhere) to show us what they can do. Nairo tends to take out Dark Pit just to experiment or so he doesn't have to use ZSS right away, but getting good results with him in a major may help generate awareness for the angels. We will also get to see how top Pit mains like Earth do against the rest of the world, which, as mentioned, features different opponents than he's used to. A Japanese player representing an underrated character in another region is just what the Pit meta needs right now.

It just takes a few good results in the right place to get people to pay attention (see: Dr Mario after MLG, potentially Samus right now), and even if the immediate hype dies down shortly after the fact, it may encourage people to try the characters out for themselves and see what they can do. If Genesis goes well for the Pits, the results and awareness generated will be a great help for their meta.
 

C0rvus

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Yes I'm jealous of them. After all, I just try and try with my characters and end up nowhere, while they get to have all of the tournaments to their discretion. Do you think I like being stuck in some deadbeat state that has so little representatives, that I try at least making a name for myself by trying to play a character like Link? Do you think I like staying at home watching tournaments instead of participating in them? Or that I like playing online mode, very little amounts of others and have laggy Anther matches?

Well I don't, okay? Do you know why day after day I attempt to try giving out arguments that I want to make valid, but always fall short? It's because I can't find ways to actually express them into a legitimate argument, I always fall short. I have trouble in everything in Smash, then when it comes to when I finally find something interesting that could make a character better, I always manage to screw THAT up! ZeRo makes it seem so easy to play this game, so easy to make arguments, well look at me, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum here. Even if I've had over a year's experience in this game, I just can't get better with Anthers. I want to go to tournaments with people, actual ones, but I never have the funding nor the transportation needed.

I'm jealous that they can manage to do that, I'm jealous they can make arguments and gameplay seem valid and easy, but look where I'm at, I can't make anything happen.

And even when I try fixing the mistakes, they already happened.
Hey, I'm sure it sucks to not have good competition near you. It's no reason to boo ZeRo and M2k (why just them I'm still not sure). I live in a state with very strong competition and I still suck so there's clearly more to it than that.

What more is there to do with the Pits? They have always seemed so straightforward.
 

J-Lit

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Shouldn't Japanese results be valued in general? For Brawl's tier lists, Pit is top tier in Japan...but mid in America(maybe results worldwide should be equally valued depending on a character like Pit who gets better results outside the US)
Yeah that was my point. Characters like duck hunt and pit are viewed a lot different in the US than in japan. I'm hoping our views on characters in smash 4 evolve to include a more worldwide scene. You can probably expect a lot of drastic knee jerk changes in some peoples' opinions if some upsets or strong foreign players occur at genesis.
 

ReRaze

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Hey, I'm sure it sucks to not have good competition near you. It's no reason to boo ZeRo and M2k (why just them I'm still not sure). I live in a state with very strong competition and I still suck so there's clearly more to it than that.

What more is there to do with the Pits? They have always seemed so straightforward.
Mainly off dair, it shouldn't only be used for spiking
They have footstool reset shenanigans that even work off grabs. RAR Dair near the ledge can true combo multiple times and into a bair to seal stocks starting at around 40%.
 
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S_B

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Hey, I'm sure it sucks to not have good competition near you. It's no reason to boo ZeRo and M2k (why just them I'm still not sure). I live in a state with very strong competition and I still suck so there's clearly more to it than that.

What more is there to do with the Pits? They have always seemed so straightforward.
I wish more melee players played SSB4 and I'm glad to see M2K is even going to SSB4 tournaments at all at this point.

Anyone know if he's maining Cloud yet?
 

ParanoidDrone

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I'm bored so have some character counts from Jams. Jams. list.

:4sheik:x27
:4diddy:x20
:4sonic:x11
:rosalina:x10
:4fox:x10
:4ness:x10
:4mario:x9
:4zss:x9
:4yoshi:x9
:4metaknight:x8
:4villager:x7
:4falcon:x7
:4olimar:x7
:4rob:x7
:4myfriends:x6
:4peach:x5
:4tlink:x5
:4pikachu:x5
:4wario:x5
:4robinm:x4
:4ryu:x4
:4megaman:x4
:4greninja:x3
:4bowserjr:x3
:4gaw:x3
:4lucario:x3
:4cloud:x2
:4jigglypuff:x2
:4kirby:x2
:4luigi:x2
:4samus:x2
:4wiifit:x2
:4littlemac:x2
:4drmario:x2
:4link:x1
:4falco:x1
:4miigun:x1
:4pacman:x1
:4pit:x1
:4dedede:x1
:4marth:x1
:4zelda:x1
:4ganondorf:x1
:4palutena:x1
:4lucas:x1
:4dk:x1
:4bowser:x1

:4charizard::4darkpit::4duckhunt::4lucina::4mewtwo::4feroy::4shulk::4miibrawl::4miisword:x0

Interesting observations:
230 total.
The top 9 represented characters combined (:4sheik::4diddy::4sonic::rosalina::4fox::4ness::4mario::4zss::4yoshi:) represent exactly 50% of the total. (Weird...)
Sheik and Diddy combined represent 20.4% of the total.

I'm surprised at the number of Yoshi players. Also Robin and Bowser Jr. for that matter, Peach to a lesser extent. ZSS has lower representation than I expected? Only 9 unrepresented characters, which is surprising in a good way. (Although no Shulk makes me sad.) I expect that lone Bowser player is hoping to capitalize on his buffs. And there's a Gunner player?

(EDIT: Turns out that perfectly even representation would be ~4 players per character. So by that measure Robin is exactly where he should be. Also Ryu, weirdly enough. Talk about two different ends of the spectrum there...)

Caveats that this was just for fun, is not intended to be a statistically rigorous analysis, and the post I cribbed the data from only lists one character per player and doesn't include characters for all players to begin with. Take with appropriate amounts of salt.

In the spoiler tag is just a bunch of character thumbnails, 1 thumbnail = 1 person. It's also not sorted. I'm leaving it here because the different, more visual representation may appeal to somebody. If you don't care about that sort of thing, there's no need to bother looking inside.

Edits for formatting and stuff.

:4peach::4peach::4peach::4peach::4peach:
:4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario:
:4link:
:4cloud::4cloud:
:4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik:
:4falco:
:4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic:
:4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager:
:4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy:
:rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina:
:4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends:
:4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox:
:4miigun:
:4tlink::4tlink::4tlink::4tlink::4tlink:
:4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss:
:4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon:
:4pikachu::4pikachu::4pikachu::4pikachu::4pikachu:
:4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness:
:4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar:
:4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob:
:4jigglypuff::4jigglypuff:
:4kirby::4kirby:
:4greninja::4greninja::4greninja:
:4bowserjr::4bowserjr::4bowserjr:
:4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight:
:4gaw::4gaw::4gaw:
:4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi:
:4pacman:
:4luigi::4luigi:
:4robinm::4robinm::4robinm::4robinm:
:4samus::4samus:
:4wiifit::4wiifit:
:4pit:
:4dedede:
:4ryu::4ryu::4ryu::4ryu:
:4marth:
:4lucario::4lucario::4lucario:
:4zelda:
:4ganondorf:
:4littlemac::4littlemac:
:4wario::4wario::4wario::4wario::4wario:
:4drmario::4drmario:
:4megaman::4megaman::4megaman::4megaman:
:4palutena:
:4lucas:
:4dk:
:4bowser:
 
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TMNTSSB4

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Pit is very highly regarded in Japan, for sure, but it's worth remembering that the context isn't quite the same and western results will have a greater impact on western tier lists.
True
A Japanese player representing an underrated character in another region is just what the Pit meta needs right now.
Since Earth's the best Pit there is(both are extremly underrated for some reason), maybe they both can start getting more and more popular with each tourney Earth and his Pit goes to.
If Genesis goes well for the Pits, the results and awareness generated will be a great help for their meta.
This...this is something that really needs to happen(Ike and Expand Dong/Donkey Kong had their meta games evolved due to more exposure, Pit could get the same exposure if Earth does well at Genesis 3)
 

Das Koopa

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I wouldn't say earth doesn't push pits meta as much as dkwill does with DK. This is the same man who double eliminated Ranai recently. He also has wins over 9B, rain, nietono, and some others I'm probably missing out on since I don't really follow the Japanese scene closely. The problem with pit is that he lacks a single good main in the US except for Nairo who rarely even uses him. We don't value Japanese results very highly unless it's some character like cloud or greninja who we wanna see shake up the meta. It's probably pretty standard in japan to see pit in top 15 and even characters like duck hunt in the middle of the tier list.
While I understand your point, it's also important to understand that not all regions are equal in terms of skill cap. Japan has very talented players, but is the skill pool in Japan as high as it is in America? If not, that might partially reflect why Pit does better in that region, and that then presents a situation where Earth can make good 9th/7th placings in a region with a lower skill cap whereas DKwill can make Top 4 multiple times in a region with a higher skill cap.

I'm actually really interested to see how Genesis 3 goes for this reason
 

san.

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Now this is interesting. Mind explaining why?

I think you're one of the smartest guys here and your opinion means a lot to me. How did you feel about him prior to this? What, beyond frame data, inspired you to change your mind?
It's mostly when I learned that Cloud's aerials don't match the visual hitbox, especially with nair. That shifted my perception of him. Not by much, though. I thought he could be top 10, but now I think he's somewhere in that 15-20 area where at least 10 characters could fit.

Cloud has to commit more than he wants to on the ground. I thought it was more than made up for with his aerials, but nair and bair aren't as amazing as I thought. Only uair is still amazing to me.

Ground moves:
Jab: Frame 4, good range, links into jab2 and 3 very early. However, the end lag is atrocious. At high rage, some characters can jump out of the standard combo. The damage is poor at 8 damage, too. The hit on jab3 has a decent knockback angle, though. The endlag is way too high to function as a good jab. It doesn't even have much of an offensive mixup because of the lag. If I blocked jab1, I would always try to punish Cloud. Jab2 and 3 would only deal like 5 or 6 damage anyways.

Ftilt: Great ftilt. Frame 9, decent disjoint, and not too bad when spaced on shield. However, the ftilt doesn't have a good jab or dtilt for close quarters.

dtilt: Also a great dtilt. Quick, fast, and punishes a variety of attacks.

utilt: Great utilt. decent disjoint, combos into itself and uair, and may even escape punishes at max range on block.

Dash attack: Somewhat quick, good vertical range so it has a use over dtilt. Very punishable on shield like most dash attacks, but it should beat many attacks directly.

Usmash: Average speed but great range and below average lag, a nice combination. Power is a bit low, so one needs to partially charge it to gain knockback.

Fsmash: Great power. Longlasting hitboxes makes it good near the edge. Almost always punishable on block and is susceptible to clanks. Great for whiff punishing with a quick dash back + pivot fsmash.

Dsmash: Has a high hitbox (to my knowledge) that helps scoops opponents. KOs at a decent percent and can be used reactively towards opponents.

Cross-Slash: Same use as jab, but can be used out of a dash and has a slower startup and much more damage. You have 6 frames to act between hits 1-2 on block and ~13 frames to act between hits 2 and the finisher on block. That's enough to grab the first hit and jab the second hit, if LordWIlliam's data is correct.

Climhazzard: Good horizontal range out of shield option. Some (most?) characters can DI or air dodge before the second hit.

Limit Charge: Good baiting tool

All of Cloud's ground moves seems to be great and have a function.. All of them except for jab. His only moves are close to non-committal are grab, cross slash, ftilt and maybe utilt. All attacks are still quite punishable on block. Jab and cross slash can make opponents guess on shield at most, but they'll receive a heavy punish on whiff, unlike most jabs.

The reason why this is so important is that Cloud likes to autocancel and even land with aerials sometimes. He needs good ground moves after the air->ground transition. If I were the Cloud player, I wouldn't even try to throw many attacks out at all on my own initiative and purely punish with them, since Cloud is susceptible to getting baited and punished himself. His kit seems mostly suited for purely baiting and punishing. Not much safe to throw out except for a quick aerial. This also hurts if someone shields Cloud's aerial and they're both close to each other on the ground in neutral.

Aerials, I'll just go through most of the weaknesses I find with them:

Nair: Not as much range as it looks. If it whiffs, there is enough time, even on autocancel or landing, to dash grab. It's pretty difficult to use this at all against a grounded opponent. Since fair is so slow, this means that Cloud's frontal air options are kind of underwhelming. This move not being as good as people thought also makes him susceptible to juggling and gimps.

Uair: godly, but mostly for vertical range. Its horizontal range is decent, but only against those who are above Cloud. Only the sweetspot kills and it's likely to get staled. Avoid the sweetspot and you'll be safe from non-limit kills center stage in the air. With limit, Cloud can perform a short hop uair, fast fall, and still autocancel. That's pretty crazy.

Bair: Not as much range as depicted, which is unfortunate for a frame 11 move. That's why it seemed so awkward to use and hit people. The landing lag is quite great for the range and damage, however. The startup makes it easy to just powershield. Harder to autocancel with limit, too.

Dair: Very nice for a dair, but liable to just get him punished if he uses it predictably in neutral. When Cloud starts up dair, he has to soft fall for a time, then fast fall. If you know that Cloud isn't going to fast fall without receiving dair lag, you can just hit him from the side or get out of the way. It's even tougher to use it with limit.

So many good moves, but your gameplan can still falter without something simple like a good/great jab, or at least some button you can press without worry.

All of these are good, but I don't think that it's enough to cover himself from getting gimped. I made a post on his recovery options a while ago (there are quite a few, but all on a flawed upB) and one on his limit sideB and climhazzard earlier.

Cloud doesn't like throwing out attacks very much IMO, since so many are punishable or low reward. I could see him being very opportunistic and bait heavy. This is enough to make Cloud a very good character, but not among the best in my eyes.

I didn't go into his combo game, but many videos went into them. He does have quite a few, even from throws, but there are numerous videos detailing them.
 
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Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Messages
14,629
Cloud's Nair is weird... I think it's actually based on his victory animation which making it into an attack... Why? It starts behind him above shoulder level before swinging clockwise, except since it swings so fast, it looks like it starts in front of him. With Ike and Shulk, they swing much slower and its easier to tell how it's hitting while Cloud's still an arcing hitbox, but a weird one... So, frame 5 or not, it's not starting in the right place for an interrupt.


San or anyone since I don't own Cloud (or any of the DLC characters), but does Cloud's Bair not hit below him? The animation makes it look like he's doing an uppercut, but I'm going to assume that it's pretty much like Ike's Bair which only hits laterally.
 
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UberMadman

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Yes I'm jealous of them. After all, I just try and try with my characters and end up nowhere, while they get to have all of the tournaments to their discretion. Do you think I like being stuck in some deadbeat state that has so little representatives, that I try at least making a name for myself by trying to play a character like Link? Do you think I like staying at home watching tournaments instead of participating in them? Or that I like playing online mode, very little amounts of others and have laggy Anther matches?

Well I don't, okay? Do you know why day after day I attempt to try giving out arguments that I want to make valid, but always fall short? It's because I can't find ways to actually express them into a legitimate argument, I always fall short. I have trouble in everything in Smash, then when it comes to when I finally find something interesting that could make a character better, I always manage to screw THAT up! ZeRo makes it seem so easy to play this game, so easy to make arguments, well look at me, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum here. Even if I've had over a year's experience in this game, I just can't get better with Anthers. I want to go to tournaments with people, actual ones, but I never have the funding nor the transportation needed.

I'm jealous that they can manage to do that, I'm jealous they can make arguments and gameplay seem valid and easy, but look where I'm at, I can't make anything happen.

And even when I try fixing the mistakes, they already happened.
I don't want to harp on this because I don't want to derail the thread, (take a shot every time someone says THAT,) but I feel like this is an important competitive topic. Please don't use personal frustrations as an excuse to boo other people. The best way to better your own condition is not to patronize or belittle the people that found success where you didn't but rather to attempt to learn how they succeeded and apply what you find helpful and relevant to your own life. And I mean ACTIVELY attempt to figure these things out, as in ask them yourself. Both ZeRo and Mew2King runs Twitters and stream on Twitch and they are active in talking to their fans, so why don't you ask them yourself how they get their funding and organize their life around Smash? Booing people who are doing what you want to do better than you are not only comes off as extremely petty but is also a good way to make sure that no one wants to offer you advice, even people other than ZeRo and Mew2King.

And seeing some of the discussion over the past few pages, I guess this goes for the thread in general: please don't shut off or heckle people's contributions to this site. We all come from different places of experience and not everyone is always an expert in what they are talking about. However, Smashboards is a place where people come to LEARN, and this thread is no exception, so instead of trying to trivialize their experiences and opinion, try to educate them on an alternative viewpoint politely. We all share a passion, and we don't want to drive people AWAY from Smash or this site, right?

So please, whether a person comes from a place of ignorance or experience, be respectful. It benefits everyone in the end.
 

PK Gaming

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Yes I'm jealous of them. After all, I just try and try with my characters and end up nowhere, while they get to have all of the tournaments to their discretion. Do you think I like being stuck in some deadbeat state that has so little representatives, that I try at least making a name for myself by trying to play a character like Link? Do you think I like staying at home watching tournaments instead of participating in them? Or that I like playing online mode, very little amounts of others and have laggy Anther matches?

Well I don't, okay? Do you know why day after day I attempt to try giving out arguments that I want to make valid, but always fall short? It's because I can't find ways to actually express them into a legitimate argument, I always fall short. I have trouble in everything in Smash, then when it comes to when I finally find something interesting that could make a character better, I always manage to screw THAT up! ZeRo makes it seem so easy to play this game, so easy to make arguments, well look at me, I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum here. Even if I've had over a year's experience in this game, I just can't get better with Anthers. I want to go to tournaments with people, actual ones, but I never have the funding nor the transportation needed.

I'm jealous that they can manage to do that, I'm jealous they can make arguments and gameplay seem valid and easy, but look where I'm at, I can't make anything happen.

And even when I try fixing the mistakes, they already happened.
Well, there are a couple things you can do to improve yourself in spite of your current situation

-Post less
-Watch tons and tons of high level play and apply some honest to god critical thinking. Find out what makes them consistent and strong
-Follow top players and character specialists and keep up with them
-Post less
-Try to distance yourself from your main. You're way too attached to Link and it colors your perception of the game
-Post less
 
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Jams.

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While I understand your point, it's also important to understand that not all regions are equal in terms of skill cap. Japan has very talented players, but is the skill pool in Japan as high as it is in America? If not, that might partially reflect why Pit does better in that region, and that then presents a situation where Earth can make good 9th/7th placings in a region with a lower skill cap whereas DKwill can make Top 4 multiple times in a region with a higher skill cap.

I'm actually really interested to see how Genesis 3 goes for this reason
Yes it is. The skill density in Japan is higher than any American state. They have a huge talent pool of high level players, which is why some of their top players seem inconsistent (they have to run through multiple sets with high level players before top 8 even starts). I feel that anyone who follows Japanese Smash 4 closely shares this opinion.

If you're curious about Japan's talent pool, I would say tracking the progress of J!, FILIP, Salena, Nasubi, and Ryuji will give a good idea of the strength of Japan's numerous high level players.

I'm bored so have some character counts from Jams. Jams. list.

:4sheik:x27
:4diddy:x20
:4sonic:x11
:rosalina:x10
:4fox:x10
:4ness:x10
:4mario:x9
:4zss:x9
:4yoshi:x9
:4metaknight:x8
:4villager:x7
:4falcon:x7
:4olimar:x7
:4rob:x7
:4myfriends:x6
:4peach:x5
:4tlink:x5
:4pikachu:x5
:4wario:x5
:4robinm:x4
:4ryu:x4
:4megaman:x4
:4greninja:x3
:4bowserjr:x3
:4gaw:x3
:4lucario:x3
:4cloud:x2
:4jigglypuff:x2
:4kirby:x2
:4luigi:x2
:4samus:x2
:4wiifit:x2
:4littlemac:x2
:4drmario:x2
:4link:x1
:4falco:x1
:4miigun:x1
:4pacman:x1
:4pit:x1
:4dedede:x1
:4marth:x1
:4zelda:x1
:4ganondorf:x1
:4palutena:x1
:4lucas:x1
:4dk:x1
:4bowser:x1

:4charizard::4darkpit::4duckhunt::4lucina::4mewtwo::4feroy::4shulk::4miibrawl::4miisword:x0

Interesting observations:
230 total.
The top 9 represented characters combined (:4sheik::4diddy::4sonic::rosalina::4fox::4ness::4mario::4zss::4yoshi:) represent exactly 50% of the total. (Weird...)
Sheik and Diddy combined represent 20.4% of the total.

I'm surprised at the number of Yoshi players. Also Robin and Bowser Jr. for that matter, Peach to a lesser extent. ZSS has lower representation than I expected? Only 9 unrepresented characters, which is surprising in a good way. (Although no Shulk makes me sad.) I expect that lone Bowser player is hoping to capitalize on his buffs. And there's a Gunner player?

(EDIT: Turns out that perfectly even representation would be ~4 players per character. So by that measure Robin is exactly where he should be. Also Ryu, weirdly enough. Talk about two different ends of the spectrum there...)

Caveats that this was just for fun, is not intended to be a statistically rigorous analysis, and the post I cribbed the data from only lists one character per player and doesn't include characters for all players to begin with. Take with appropriate amounts of salt.

In the spoiler tag is just a bunch of character thumbnails, 1 thumbnail = 1 person. It's also not sorted. I'm leaving it here because the different, more visual representation may appeal to somebody. If you don't care about that sort of thing, there's no need to bother looking inside.

Edits for formatting and stuff.

:4peach::4peach::4peach::4peach::4peach:
:4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario::4mario:
:4link:
:4cloud::4cloud:
:4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik::4sheik:
:4falco:
:4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic::4sonic:
:4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager::4villager:
:4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy::4diddy:
:rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina::rosalina:
:4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends::4myfriends:
:4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox::4fox:
:4miigun:
:4tlink::4tlink::4tlink::4tlink::4tlink:
:4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss::4zss:
:4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon::4falcon:
:4pikachu::4pikachu::4pikachu::4pikachu::4pikachu:
:4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness::4ness:
:4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar::4olimar:
:4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob::4rob:
:4jigglypuff::4jigglypuff:
:4kirby::4kirby:
:4greninja::4greninja::4greninja:
:4bowserjr::4bowserjr::4bowserjr:
:4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight::4metaknight:
:4gaw::4gaw::4gaw:
:4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi::4yoshi:
:4pacman:
:4luigi::4luigi:
:4robinm::4robinm::4robinm::4robinm:
:4samus::4samus:
:4wiifit::4wiifit:
:4pit:
:4dedede:
:4ryu::4ryu::4ryu::4ryu:
:4marth:
:4lucario::4lucario::4lucario:
:4zelda:
:4ganondorf:
:4littlemac::4littlemac:
:4wario::4wario::4wario::4wario::4wario:
:4drmario::4drmario:
:4megaman::4megaman::4megaman::4megaman:
:4palutena:
:4lucas:
:4dk:
:4bowser:
Oh my God the list I made had over 230 players. What am I doing with my life?

This was a really cool post to look at, thank you ParanoidDrone ParanoidDrone . Definitely draw conclusions from this with caution though, for the reasons already mentioned.
 
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Das Koopa

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Yes it is. The skill density in Japan is higher than any American state. They have a huge talent pool of high level players, which is why some of their top players seem inconsistent (they have to run through multiple sets with high level players before top 8 even starts). I feel that anyone who follows Japanese Smash 4 closely shares this opinion.

If you're curious about Japan's talent pool, I would say tracking the progress of J!, FILIP, Salena, Nasubi, and Ryuji will give a good idea of the strength of Japan's numerous high level players.
They might have a higher talent pool than any individual American region,, but I'm talking about Nationals in America as a whole, where you see a substantial amount of the best talent from every region in the U.S converge.
 

Locke 06

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It's mostly when I learned that Cloud's aerials don't match the visual hitbox, especially with nair. That shifted my perception of him. Not by much, though. I thought he could be top 10, but now I think he's somewhere in that 15-20 area where at least 10 characters could fit.

Cloud has to commit more than he wants to on the ground. I thought it was more than made up for with his aerials, but nair and bair aren't as amazing as I thought. Only uair is still amazing to me.

Ground moves:
Jab: Frame 4, good range, links into jab2 and 3 very early. However, the end lag is atrocious. At high rage, some characters can jump out of the standard combo. The damage is poor at 8 damage, too. The hit on jab3 has a decent knockback angle, though. The endlag is way too high to function as a good jab. It doesn't even have much of an offensive mixup because of the lag. If I blocked jab1, I would always try to punish Cloud. Jab2 and 3 would only deal like 5 or 6 damage anyways.

Ftilt: Great ftilt. Frame 9, decent disjoint, and not too bad when spaced on shield. However, the ftilt doesn't have a good jab or dtilt for close quarters.

dtilt: Also a great dtilt. Quick, fast, and punishes a variety of attacks.

utilt: Great utilt. decent disjoint, combos into itself and uair, and may even escape punishes at max range on block.

Dash attack: Somewhat quick, good vertical range so it has a use over dtilt. Very punishable on shield like most dash attacks, but it should beat many attacks directly.

Usmash: Average speed but great range and below average lag, a nice combination. Power is a bit low, so one needs to partially charge it to gain knockback.

Fsmash: Great power. Longlasting hitboxes makes it good near the edge. Almost always punishable on block and is susceptible to clanks. Great for whiff punishing with a quick dash back + pivot fsmash.

Dsmash: Has a high hitbox (to my knowledge) that helps scoops opponents. KOs at a decent percent and can be used reactively towards opponents.

Cross-Slash: Same use as jab, but can be used out of a dash and has a slower startup and much more damage. You have 6 frames to act between hits 1-2 on block and ~13 frames to act between hits 2 and the finisher on block. That's enough to grab the first hit and jab the second hit, if LordWIlliam's data is correct.

Climhazzard: Good horizontal range out of shield option. Some (most?) characters can DI or air dodge before the second hit.

Limit Charge: Good baiting tool

All of Cloud's ground moves seems to be great and have a function.. All of them except for jab. His only moves are close to non-committal are grab, cross slash, ftilt and maybe utilt. All attacks are still quite punishable on block. Jab and cross slash can make opponents guess on shield at most, but they'll receive a heavy punish on whiff, unlike most jabs.

The reason why this is so important is that Cloud likes to autocancel and even land with aerials sometimes. He needs good ground moves after the air->ground transition. If I were the Cloud player, I wouldn't even try to throw many attacks out at all on my own initiative and purely punish with them, since Cloud is susceptible to getting baited and punished himself. His kit seems mostly suited for purely baiting and punishing. Not much safe to throw out except for a quick aerial. This also hurts if someone shields Cloud's aerial and they're both close to each other on the ground in neutral.

Aerials, I'll just go through most of the weaknesses I find with them:

Nair: Not as much range as it looks. If it whiffs, there is enough time, even on autocancel or landing, to dash grab. It's pretty difficult to use this at all against a grounded opponent. Since fair is so slow, this means that Cloud's frontal air options are kind of underwhelming. This move not being as good as people thought also makes him susceptible to juggling and gimps.

Uair: godly, but mostly for vertical range. Its horizontal range is decent, but only against those who are above Cloud. Only the sweetspot kills and it's likely to get staled. Avoid the sweetspot and you'll be safe from non-limit kills center stage in the air. With limit, Cloud can perform a short hop uair, fast fall, and still autocancel. That's pretty crazy.

Bair: Not as much range as depicted, which is unfortunate for a frame 11 move. That's why it seemed so awkward to use and hit people. The landing lag is quite great for the range and damage, however. The startup makes it easy to just powershield. Harder to autocancel with limit, too.

Dair: Very nice for a dair, but liable to just get him punished if he uses it predictably in neutral. When Cloud starts up dair, he has to soft fall for a time, then fast fall. If you know that Cloud isn't going to fast fall without receiving dair lag, you can just hit him from the side or get out of the way. It's even tougher to use it with limit.

So many good moves, but your gameplan can still falter without something simple like a good/great jab, or at least some button you can press without worry.

All of these are good, but I don't think that it's enough to cover himself from getting gimped. I made a post on his recovery options a while ago (there are quite a few, but all on a flawed upB) and one on his limit sideB and climhazzard earlier.

Cloud doesn't like throwing out attacks very much IMO, since so many are punishable or low reward. I could see him being very opportunistic and bait heavy. This is enough to make Cloud a very good character, but not among the best in my eyes.

I didn't go into his combo game, but many videos went into them. He does have quite a few, even from throws, but there are numerous videos detailing them.
As someone who's recently been going through growing pains with him, this feels like a very spot on analysis. From the trailer and his release, my biggest issue was that he was a swordsman without a swordsman's down tilt. I thought cross Slash would suffice, but I don't think it does (according to my math, cross Slash 1 is -2 on shield allowing for buffered rolls as a getaway, which is what computers always do in order to avoid the mixup). His jab is great in terms of range and the way his hurtbox contorts before the jab (he stands up straight and ***** his leg back), but the endlag is bad and he leaves his leg out saying "hit me." The time in between hits can get him punished even when going straight into jab 2 and 3.

He exerts pressure with his mobility and positioning and the ability to punish extremely well. With limit, side-B out of a run/aerial, up-B OoS, down-B in the air/landing trap, and neutral B as a projectile. Not much more you could ask for.

His ftilt is truly great with amazing range, but is only safe when spaced on shield. Cross Slash is amazing, but when whiffed there is no mixup like one would be able to do with dancing blade. And when he whiffs/gets punished, he can have a hard time resetting due to how high commitment his moves are (landing with an unspaced aerial should get you shield grabbed). Fighting your away out from a corner as Cloud is not an easy thing to do, allowing the opponent to focus on defensive escapes.

I don't think this holds him back too hard either, but it requires much more skill and thought to play Cloud despite his "I have moves that beat yours" swordsman niche. At first I thought he was rather unhealthy for the meta, having desirable traits from all swordsmen, but I feel his lack of a signature swordsman "poke" keeps him honest.

Also, sakurai patch his dsmash please. I believe it is an incredibly important move in order to punish crossup roll escapes from the corner to keep them cornered.


Edit: also a clarification, fsmash's 3 hits only have 1 active frame each. It's great, but unreliable as a neutral/jump ledge option coverage. The lack of active frames keeps it in check. The more I learn about him, the more interestingly well developed he seems to me.
 
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LancerStaff

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Cloud's disadvantage doesn't seem very good. Definitely not a floaty by any means and his aerials are all slow... As good as Uair is, landing or counterattacking with it requires you to be literally on top of the opponent. Dair's laggy if you don't AC and with how long it takes to get to that point it's definitely not worth it. Bair's got a ton of start-up and the hitbox doesn't seem very good. Nair's gotta be effectively frame 7 or later.

By my count he has a bad recovery (even limit Clamhazzard isn't great since it lacks a hitbox on half of it), meh disadvantage onstage, decent ground game, good but not great air game and limits. Like, I dunno... He doesn't seem that good to me.
 

Thinkaman

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Well, there are a couple things you can do to improve yourself in spite of your current situation

-Post less
-Watch tons and tons of high level play and apply some honest to god critical thinking. Find out what makes them consistent and strong
-Follow top players and character specialists and keep up with them
-Post less
-Try to distance yourself from your main. You're way too attached to Link and it colors your perception of the game
-Post less
I would amend "post less" to "listen more."

But psychologically speaking, our brains more or less don't listen (effectively) while we talk. I believe this isn't just a neuro-physiological quirk exclusive to verbal speech, but an underlying cognitive pattern that extends to all forms of communication, including forum posting.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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Messages
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Cloud's disadvantage doesn't seem very good. Definitely not a floaty by any means and his aerials are all slow... As good as Uair is, landing or counterattacking with it requires you to be literally on top of the opponent. Dair's laggy if you don't AC and with how long it takes to get to that point it's definitely not worth it. Bair's got a ton of start-up and the hitbox doesn't seem very good. Nair's gotta be effectively frame 7 or later.

By my count he has a bad recovery (even limit Clamhazzard isn't great since it lacks a hitbox on half of it), meh disadvantage onstage, decent ground game, good but not great air game and limits. Like, I dunno... He doesn't seem that good to me.
Cloud's definitely fast faller; he falls slightly slower than Ike? without meter if I recall correctly. As for aerials... The only slow aerial he has is Fair at frame 18 since it's basically, in terms of Smash, DK Fair as a giant sword. Everything else is sub-frame 12 with Nair being the most iffy since it's frame 5 from the back, but even then, it might be at worse, frame 10 in front and that's pretty damn good for a swordsman with a giant sword. Nair starts at 5, Uair starts at 7, Bair and Dair at 11. Dair looks pretty fast compared to Bair since he only places his sword in front of him and thrusts down while Bair has him turning to swing back.
 
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Locke 06

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NAir is effectively f11ish horizontally in front. F8-9 cover 12:30-3:00 and f10-11 is 3:00-5:30.

Back air has a fine hitbox. Reminiscent of swordfighter's BAir, it has less horizontal range than ftilt, but more than jab and climhazzard with a large large disjoint. It serves its purpose as his strong horizontal aerial (BAir offstage). NAir starts f5 behind him and can function as a BAir with the right positioning. What's nice about BAir is its FAF (42); you can double Bair in a non-limit FH.

Only Villager's DAir is more useful to ward off jugglers. Cloud's DAir is so quick for its disjoint and stays out what seems to be "just long enough" in a lot of cases. Must be respected while most other DAirs do not need to be respected at all.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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G3 pools are still subject to change until wednesday I hear. Let's hope they fix a couple of things. Fatality and 9B in the same R1 pool is unacceptable.

:059:
 

ぱみゅ

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iirc they had Fatality on a very low seeding.
But yes, some of the earliest A-C pools have recognizable names, while the latest sometimes even lack any big name.
:196:
 

TTTTTsd

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A lot of what makes Cloud good tends to be his mobility and the Limit Break mechanic. He has unquestionably the best frame data of any sword character of his kind, coupled with the best mobility even before he actually acquires full Limit (he already outspeeds Roy on the ground before he's in Limit Break mode).

If he had bad mobility he'd be unquestionably unviable. But he doesn't. He has incredibly good mobility for his frame data and disjoint, and I think that's kinda worth talking about even though nobody has. Nobody's gonna mention 8th(ish, going by Aerodrome's site) fastest runner with some of the best Dash IASA in the game (the latter's been talked about but the former never seemed to come up)? Not how easy it is to camp a majority of the roster with Limit Break and then boost your mobility specs to beyond ZSS levels except with a sword and autocancels which is quite frankly pretty impressive. I honestly consider the mobility increase the major reason why Limit Break is so amazing as a move.

He has very clear advantages and very clear flaws, but I don't believe the flaws make him a "bad" or "meh" character at all. The results continue to occur and he's been out and explored for a while. Good players like Rain and Komorikiri don't pick up unimpressive characters.

That being said, I have my own beliefs on his viability, but I believe he is at minimum a viable character for tournament use.

Also his Dair is good because it's incredibly fast and he throws a giant hitbox below him. Not entirely or solely because it autocancels. Rising Dair on reaction covers almost any conceivable ledge option, and if you miss you can autocancel thanks to ledge animations.
 
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