Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Pazzo.]

None. Charge is an input, not a playstyle.

Specifically, charge moves are typically better than others, and that's to compensate the fact that you have to charge by either holding back or down, which means you're limited in your movement. There's nothing like this in Smash, characters all have the same inputs.


Also there's no way you can beat MK by just sitting close to the ledge. That's silly.

Right.. sorry.

I mean characters that have a projectile or move with long startup but high reward? I guess that really isn't in SSB either.

 

[C0rvus]

I know I'm late to the Street Fighter conversation, but who would our "charge" characters be in SSB4?

The only thing I can think of would be characters who have to charge their specials () or sword characters with good pokes but they are slow () but yeah as was said before, charging is just an input. It could refer to the need to play defensively, but I don't think anyone really fits into that mold.

 

[FullMoon]

Regarding Gibus v Hakii, Gibus simply took advantage of Hakii's awful airdodge habit/nerves after dthrow. I find that with greninja, dthrow > fair frequently gets airdodged out of first try. Once you see that, waiting out the airdodge for the fair or run up usmash is a fantastic option.

Jumping out of greninjas dthrow seems to be the best option for the other player, although you can definitely get hit if greninja double jump fairs. Greninja dthrow almost feels like a 33/33/33.

I'm not too sure on it but I don't think you can jump out of D-Throw -> F-Air because the jump input comes out later than an airdodge. I can't test it myself though

 

[A2ZOMG]

In what parallel universe does Diddy beat Sonic?

I mean how doesn't he win? Better normals, Bananas to win the ground game, actually can cover Sonic's landing options?

ZSS, Sonic and Rosa? He doesn't beat Shiek and I don't think any of those MU's are that good anymore...

Rosa still doesn't have a real response to Diddy F-air, and neither does ZSS.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

In what parallel universe does Diddy beat Sonic?

The same one where Mario is low tier, apparently.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

The same one where Mario is low tier, apparently.

Smooth Criminal

So basically 3DS era where Sonic was much much stronger, vectoring existed limiting throw combos, and also larger blastzones were a thing. I could believe Sonic probably did better against Diddy in that era where Mario actually was terrible and pointless to play.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Never change, A2Z. Never change.

Anyways, I was wondering: You guys see any "dark horse" characters coming out of the woodwork and placing well for G3?

Smooth Criminal

 

[warionumbah2]

I remember a Robin called Darth or something trying that ledge camping tactic against Sebrik but got bopped even harder than the last time they played.

People focus way too much on Dash attack and ignore his other confirms. On stages such as Duck hunt, TnC and SV he can stale his uairs by hitting balloons/Ducks which makes uair combo's easier to do and work at later percents. That's not what you want.

No surprise Aba lost to Sheik, very even MU.

 

[TurboLink]

Right.. sorry.

I mean characters that have a projectile or move with long startup but high reward? I guess that really isn't in SSB either.

That might be Bayonetta.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Never change, A2Z. Never change.

Anyways, I was wondering: You guys see any "dark horse" characters coming out of the woodwork and placing well for G3?

Smooth Criminal

Assuming Void busts out Cloud, Cloud will likely do something at G3. Otherwise I'd say speculating character results is pretty pointless for majors.

 

[Djent]

Ryuji is currently in VoiD's pool at Genesis. That should be interesting.

I remember a Robin called Darth or something

Dath, lol.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Assuming Void busts out Cloud, Cloud will likely do something at G3. Otherwise I'd say speculating character results is pretty pointless for majors.

So is 99% of the other **** we talk about in here, but you know.

Smooth Criminal

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The same one where Mario is low tier, apparently.

Smooth Criminal

I mean most people do overrate Mario by a noticeable degree so it's not like everything he says is unreasonable by default.

But I'm not seeing Diddy beating Sonic at all. Calling his 'normals' 'better' is just a blanket statement and saying he wins neutral because of banana also simplifies things too much for my liking. One of Sonic's greatest virtues is his ability to draw shortcuts through the whole neutral game process. Sonic can also cover Diddy's landing options so at best it evens out for Diddy.

 

[Ffamran]

There's nothing weird about the japanese metagame.

They look interesting if anything. From a Falco standpoint, their average Falco look more competent than an average Falco in the US. Seriously, who uses Fair in neutral? Your *** is lucky people still haven't caught on to landing hits or you'd be blown back. Then you see Japanese Falco players move like they were dancers. Once again, advocating for good movement for all players since if you can move like that, then you have control over your character.

I know I'm late to the Street Fighter conversation, but who would our "charge" characters be in SSB4?

In terms of high startup and low recovery projectiles, Greninja and the Pits would probably be Guile. The Pits are debatable since it's mostly aerial use where they have low recovery while Greninja's is just overall low. Luigi would also count, but he can't charge his Fireball.

After that, I don't really know since I only know that Guile and pre-SFV Nash were charge characters. Also, would Cloud, Shulk, or Wii Fit Trainer be considered like Hakan? Purely from Hakan's oil use and not their similarities in fights. Cloud would like to have meter for passive buffs and Limit Breaks while Shulk and Wii Fit Trainer need to refresh their Monado Arts and Deep Breathing. Cloud doesn't need to refresh anything unless he dies or uses a Limit Break, but he does work with a mechanic that passively buffs him.

I remember a Robin called Darth or something trying that ledge camping tactic against Sebrik but got bopped even harder than the last time they played.

Player's tag is Dath. Robin ain't no Sith Lord! Darth Robin... That kind of sounds silly. Now, Darth Grima, though.

Assuming Void busts out Cloud, Cloud will likely do something at G3. Otherwise I'd say speculating character results is pretty pointless for majors.

Cloud's got these people notable using him: 6wX, Earth, Komorikiri, Trela, and VoiD. 6wX probably won't use him as much, but the rest? Considering Komorikiri's interest in Cloud as a secondary and VoiD's general interest, it wouldn't be surprising. And Trela's just Trela. If Mewtwo had his 1.1.3 buffs in 1.1.1, Trela would have probably revived his Mewtwo shenanigans and taken several tournaments with Mewtwo before Cloud was released.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean most people do overrate Mario by a noticeable degree so it's not like everything he says is unreasonable by default.

But I'm not seeing Diddy beating Sonic at all. Calling his 'normals' 'better' is just a blanket statement and saying he wins neutral because of banana also simplifies things too much for my liking. One of Sonic's greatest virtues is his ability to draw shortcuts through the whole neutral game process. Sonic can also cover Diddy's landing options so at best it evens out for Diddy.

Diddy has really low commitment B reverse options through Popgun, so catching his landing, even in this matchup, is a significantly larger guessing game than the other way around. Catching Sonic's landing technically doesn't require a lot of guessing in general if you simply have enough mobility to actually follow under him, given he has no low commitment way to alter his momentum in the air. It's why Fox is largely argued to do well against Sonic.

Sonic has somewhat similar frame data and range to Diddy on the ground, but Diddy gets noticeably more reward on his normals, especially grab and D-tilt, and a major outlier is Diddy's aerials which Sonic obviously doesn't want to challenge directly, and that Diddy can relatively safely throw out autocanceled stuff even if he doesn't have a Banana to stop spindashes. Add that Bananas in general win the ground game in almost every matchup that basically isn't Sheik (who has needles and comparably broken autocanceled aerials as actual direct responses to the threat of Bananas), I'm pretty sure that Diddy overall is safer.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I seriously doubt it's that open and shut

I'd like to see it play out at high levels of play, but my gut tells me it won't be that easy for Shulk

It's not, just my general opinion on monado arts in this MU. Armor helps Shulk in neutral, which he really needs to win when fighting Cloud, and Jump allows for rather easy gimps.

There are more things to add, but Shulk has a slight advantage in the MU. He actually out ranges and can Fair string Cloud rather easily. Shulk has options in this MU that make it possible or favorable.

 

[Solfiner]

It's not, just my general opinion on monado arts in this MU. Armor helps Shulk in neutral, which he really needs to win when fighting Cloud, and Jump allows for rather easy gimps.

There are more things to add, but Shulk has a slight advantage in the MU. He actually out ranges and can Fair string Cloud rather easily. Shulk has options in this MU that make it possible or favorable.

I second this. I tried the match-up several times yesterday.

 

[Crudele]

I'm not too sure on it but I don't think you can jump out of D-Throw -> F-Air because the jump input comes out later than an airdodge. I can't test it myself though

I know anecdotally I've had folks jump out. Could've been out of the proper percent window/too much rage/not frame perfect/against a floaty, though. I can't test it right now either.

But I feel like if dthrow > fair was as scary of a mixup as sheiks dthrow > vanish/uair (where jumping really isn't an option), then it would be talked about more often and greninjas would be revolving more of their gameplay around it. Idk

 

[FullMoon]

I know anecdotally I've had folks jump out. Could've been out of the proper percent window/too much rage/not frame perfect/against a floaty, though. I can't test it right now either.

But I feel like if dthrow > fair was as scary of a mixup as sheiks dthrow > vanish/uair (where jumping really isn't an option), then it would be talked about more often and greninjas would be revolving more of their gameplay around it. Idk

Not quite, unlike Sheik, Greninja needs to be carrying momentum from a dash grab in order for it to work plus the combo is very rage dependant in order to work at more reasonable percentages. It also kills from the side instead of up, meaning stage positioning has a big impact on it as well.

It's a good kill confirm but nowhere close to Sheik's 50/50.

 

[Goesasu]

I second this. I tried the match-up several times yesterday.

So did i.

Shulk beats Cloud rather easily, just dont put smash art on when cloud has limit.

 

[LancerStaff]

On stages such as Duck hunt, TnC and SV he can stale his uairs by hitting balloons/Ducks which makes uair combo's easier to do and work at later percents.

Wasn't that removed going into Smash 4?

 

[Emblem Lord]

For what it's worth I don't think Shulk quite beats Cloud and I don't think he's quite low tier.

Shulk is probably mid tier.

I used to think Shulk won but now I'm thinking its even.

Cloud has versatility in his tool box while Shulk has versatility in his arts.

The Marth/Fei-Long comparison is so accurate it brings tears to my eyes.

 

[kaz99]

Wow I met Venia online, and he's really good. Great to know who he actually is!

I had the pleasure of fighting Venia in KTAR XV pools. He bodied me. Greninja is definitely an underrated character. However, I have little to no experience with the character, so I probably had no idea what to do in that match up.

 

[Jams.]

Rosa still doesn't have a real response to Diddy F-air, and neither does ZSS.

Powershield -> whatever? I don't think the effectiveness of fair in this matchup compensates for the extent to which banana is neutralized.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Powershield -> whatever? I don't think the effectiveness of fair in this matchup compensates for the extent to which banana is neutralized.

I have heard that Fair is good against Luma. However, I don't know much about that MU, as ZeRo always destroys Rosalumas...

 

[Ffamran]

2GGT's sets are up on 2GGaming if anyone's interested in analyzing stuff from there. Notable things that happened in 2GGT included Jonny Westside's Samus taking a set against Mr. ConCon's Luigi and another Luigi under the tag of Elegant along with his 2nd game vs. ZeRo's Sheik. Also, perhaps Larry's losing some steam or Sheik really is starting to become that dominant since Larry was double eliminated by two Sheiks, K9Bruce and VoiD. Oh, and ESAM, one of the few notable Pikachu players if anyone wants to dabble in Pikachu's iffy placement in tier lists.

There was also one notable thing that happened and it involved Kiraflax. Thinking he got a bit too frustrated? He is known for getting frustrated, but also known for pulling clutch games. He put up a fight against Larry, but then he got a little to frustrated from the looks of things and everything went downhill. That or he got confused and tried to figure out perfect pivots in the middle of a match... Another player who was known for being easily frustrated was K9Bruce, right? And look where he is now all calm and collected. Imagine a calm, but also determined and even angry, Kiraflax. On point, he could have the potential to be a terrifying Dark Pit.

Oh, and for funsies, Mario Up Smashes courtesy of Ally.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Powershield -> whatever? I don't think the effectiveness of fair in this matchup compensates for the extent to which banana is neutralized.

Grav Pull? That's a free punish if the Diddy has a brain given item tossing has almost no end lag. If you're forced to go for Perfect Shield reads to survive neutral, that's bad.

 

[DanGR]

Grav Pull? That's a free punish if the Diddy has a brain given item tossing has almost no end lag. If you're forced to go for Perfect Shield reads to survive neutral, that's bad.

Luma tends to body-block bananas, but there are ways around it.

 

[Jams.]

Grav Pull? That's a free punish if the Diddy has a brain given item tossing has almost no end lag. If you're forced to go for Perfect Shield reads to survive neutral, that's bad.

No, Luma takes the banana for Rosalina in a lot of circumstances, and allows Rosalina to punish Diddy or escape disadvantage. Perfect shield reads are more manageable because banana is a big part of Diddy's neutral, and limiting that option means you can more easily anticipate and counteract Diddy's other options.

edit: 'd

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luma tends to body-block bananas, but there are ways around it.

I factored that, and more importantly the fact Rosalina is super tall, and that Luma also isn't going to help nearly as much for landing.

No, Luma takes the banana for Rosalina in a lot of circumstances, and allows Rosalina to punish Diddy or escape disadvantage. Perfect shield reads are more manageable because banana is a big part of Diddy's neutral, and limiting that option means you can more easily anticipate and counteract Diddy's other options.

edit: 'd

You didn't even count all of Diddy's options for that matter, which include:
Space out Luma to kill it (not much to be said for neutral once his happens)
Monkey Flip
Aerial item toss (still super strong for stage control to hit Rosalina's head)
Grab (one of the best in the game, an advantage that can't really be understated)

On top of the fact Rosalina explicitly needs to make a hard read to counter Diddy F-air directly, one which explicitly does not beat the other stated options and in many cases loses to them. I'm simply not seeing how she wins this matchup outside of betting on edgeguards.

At any rate it's pretty obvious to me the character with the best ground game in the game is pretty criminally underrated. Worth noting Diddy's entire list of patch changes is not all nerfs.

 

[Illuminose]

esam was playing utterly awful at 2ggt j/s. that's bad on him not on pikachu.

oh, and the shu vs abadango sets from yesterday were amazing. it's really interesting to see the dynamic of the matchup because Shu was outplaying abadango super hard in neutral but abadango was within inches of winning both sets simply because of mk's punish game. shu's spacing and movement was pretty much perfect but abadango still found openings. these matches to me show just how even sheik vs mk is when the mk player can get not just outneutral'd but pretty much outplayed in neutral but it matters so little until the last stock is finally over.

rain is back in form just in time for Genesis. and if it isn't changed ryuji might turn some heads w/ a potential upset on void.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

GPull may be punishable, but it's utterly hilarious when you read a banana toss within its range and use it preemptively. It transfers ownership to Rosalina the moment it leaves Diddy's hand, so he basically hits himself with his own banana.

 

[Yikarur]

You don't just throw the banana in neutral carelessly though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Here's Rain winning GFs against Shu with Cloud. If that guy is supposed to be the weakest player in Japan's lineup of the G3 crewbattles then I hope SoCal, Tristate and the rest are on their a-game ... if they wanna have a shot at winning crews.

 

[LancerStaff]

So everybody's been wondering when we'd go over another of ZeRo's videos...

Meh. He's glossing over how important Pit's arrows are pretty heavily. I've said it before, but if you're not killing with Electroshock you're probably better off with Pit's arrows. He and Nairo were saying Dark Pit's a top 15 character now... I find that interesting because you don't (and shouldn't) be using them separately. Just how high would they be together?

So, does Dark Pit in top 15 sound reasonable? Or is Nairo just riding the hype too hard?

 

[Djent]

TBH it's a travesty that Japan is only the #2 seed in crews. I mean their subs are better than entire regions lol. I'll also say that just having a solid Cloud player on your team is a huge advantage at this point.

 

[UberMadman]

So everybody's been wondering when we'd go over another of ZeRo's videos...

Meh. He's glossing over how important Pit's arrows are pretty heavily. I've said it before, but if you're not killing with Electroshock you're probably better off with Pit's arrows. He and Nairo were saying Dark Pit's a top 15 character now... I find that interesting because you don't (and shouldn't) be using them separately. Just how high would they be together?

So, does Dark Pit in top 15 sound reasonable? Or is Nairo just riding the hype too hard?

Seems reasonable to me. Both the Pits have been sitting just outside the top tiers for a while now, so I don't feel top 15 is a stretch. People also underrate Dark Pit's arrows a lot; since the 1.1.0 patch, they travel even faster than Pit's, (along with receiving another damage buff,) which makes them more useful onstage overall. Pit's arrows have a bit more advantage offstage, but they don't make up for the significantly better Electroshock Arm which even when it doesn't kill always gives you great positional advantage. Personally I would not hesitate to call Dark Pit the better of the two, for what little it's worth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

TBH it's a travesty that Japan is only the #2 seed in crews. I mean their subs are better than entire regions lol. I'll also say that just having a solid Cloud player on your team is a huge advantage at this point.

I dunno, I see them being seeded against the 4th strongest crew. 2nd and 3rd strongest crews are seeded against each other so it's all good.

 

[apparently fuz]

So everybody's been wondering when we'd go over another of ZeRo's videos...

Meh. He's glossing over how important Pit's arrows are pretty heavily. I've said it before, but if you're not killing with Electroshock you're probably better off with Pit's arrows. He and Nairo were saying Dark Pit's a top 15 character now... I find that interesting because you don't (and shouldn't) be using them separately. Just how high would they be together?

So, does Dark Pit in top 15 sound reasonable? Or is Nairo just riding the hype too hard?

Top 15? I don't know. I don't really think that Dark Pit's side-b buff has fully rectified one of his main issues, being him closing out a stock efficiently. Side-b is still a move that comes out frame 17 and lacks and reliable kill confirms into it. I still see it more of an extremely situational attack rather than it being a solid kill move.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't think there's any doubt that, if one of the Pit is better than the other, it's Dark Pit. But I still think it's a difference of one two spots at the most. Dark Pit is more effective in a number of matchups, but it's not like you'd be invalidating yourself if you went for Pit instead.

Re: their respective options, Dark Pit's arrows are underrated, but Pit's have their uses too. I've said it before, but I define it as a choice between "help in lots of small ways" or "help in one big way". Electroshock is more dramatic in terms of effect, but Pit's arrows and f-tilt have their niche too. Versatility helps.

I think they've just traded places, more than anything: both are good characters, but Dark Pit is the better of the two. You can still reliably play one if you play the other, it's a two-for-one kind of thing, so distinguishing them as two different characters and identifying them individually isn't entirely necessary. They're essentially a package deal!