Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Man Li Gi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJUcNTGivM
At the end of this video it shows a clip of 's fsmash hitting WAY below the ledge and earlier in the video 's usmash having a similar affect but not as far down.

I am surprised I have not seen this in tournament.

There is nothing that exclusively happens on BF that we have seen to be a bit obtuse or weird.

The reverse getup is normal as it has happened in Smashville, FD, T&C, and Miiverse (noticed that it happens only on sloped edges).

The Sheik down throw has yet to happen in tourney, but that was the one oddity.

Pikachu's hurtbox extends really far vertically, hence why the punch hit.

 

[Yikarur]

Flip kick and the footstool are two different attacks, and the latter kills something like 3-4 times later (30-40% vs 90-120%).

Ths move spikes you out of the DJ.. it will kill you at any% .. even if you initiate the kick, it knocks Yoshi out of the super armor at at under 40%

Yoshi's mid-air jump negates ZSS' dsmash on the ledge because it won't stun through armor,

ZSS dsmash beats Yoshis super armor arround 80%. The scenarios where Yoshi can break through it from the ledge are not even rewarding for Yoshi, because he still suffers normal hitlag while ZSS does not making the "frame advantage" not really much. (at Yoshi still has to get to ZSS somehow)

eggs cover him really well regardless, defeating ZSS' ledgetraps (ledgetrumping too) which are a big part of her game.

How is this supposed to work?

Yoshi gets caught by the bnb combo pretty badly but it stops working relatively early due to Yoshi's floatiness, and it's not a real kill combo so it's not that central to ZSS' matchups in general.

it is a real combo and dthrow to upair is true in kill%.

Yoshi's aerial mobility and pressure combined with ZSS' lack of good rising aerials and OoS options is also a problem. [/quote

ZSS has a lot of good anti air options and can beat out most of Yoshis attemps. She is definitely at an advantage if she just plays patiently until a hole opens up. (which will eventually happen because Yoshi is not that safe)

Like mentioned earlier a lot of Yoshi's animations that you could otherwise punish duck hunter ZSS' most moves.

This is probably a lack of match-ups knowledge. This should never be a problem.

ZSS also struggles to beat Yoshi's dair when he's landing because it takes 11 frames for her uair to arc directly above her and the hitbox is quite small.

if he does it high you just need to space the upair correctly.
if he does it low you just shield it.
You make it sound like Yoshi can just use dair to land everytime. This is not how it works.

 

[Lavani]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJUcNTGivM
At the end of this video it shows a clip of 's fsmash hitting WAY below the ledge and earlier in the video 's usmash having a similar affect but not as far down.

I am surprised I have not seen this in tournament.

Both examples are because of the character they're edgeguarding. 's fsmash hits Pikachu because 's hurtbox extends significantly vertically when he pancakes at the end of each dash in Quick Attack. 's usmash hits the other C.Falcon because his upB causes him to extend his arm up into the stage so far it will even poke up through the floor.

Ths move spikes you out of the DJ.. it will kill you at any% .. even if you initiate the kick, it knocks Yoshi out of the super armor at at under 40%

The spike kick breaks the armor at 52% in training. Freshness bonus and rage could make it earlier in a real match though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I had it break DJ armor as early as 40% when ZSS had 70ish% rage at a small doubles tourney I entered for fun last Sunday for clarity.
Freshness/Rage does influence it and most likely breaks it much much sooner.

 

[Lavani]

I dunno, the math says max rage ZSS shouldn't break it earlier than 35% with a fresh Flip Kick

150% ZSS isn't breaking DJ armor with it fresh against a 34% Yoshi testing in-game right now.

So 35~49% in a real match with a fresh downB, depending on ZSS's rage (for the spike hit).
though Flip Jump kills at that point anyway so...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Meant 40% but yeah

though Flip Jump kills at that point anyway so...

 

[Mario766]

The next time I see Yoshi being said to have super armor I'm gonna rip someones head off.

 

[Ffamran]

Turns out despite Lucas' down smash now working like a Tatsu, it still has utility.

I wonder what other "nerfed" moves have utility?

"Tatsu"? What do you mean? Do you mean like how Tatsumaki's not really useful outside of certain situations, but in specific situations, it excels?

It's a myth really that lesser knockback makes a move better at comboing. Lesser knockback means lesser hitstun, so while it lets you combo with an attack further, you also can't combo with it as early as you could before. It's the exact same for comboing, the range where it does just got switched forward a little. A move becoming better for comboing due to damage nerfs is only true if it works from 0%, and Falcon's uair doesn't start linking until around 20%+.

I have to clarify though that low BKB, low KBG and low endlag are what matters for comboing. In the case of damage nerfs I believe it's only BKB which decreases, so it only switches the range this way.

Biggest example of this would be Falco's Bair and his Ftilt. Bair has no base, but amazing growth. This leads to the ability to combo from and to it at low percents. Hell, you can even chain them together at low percents, but at high percents, it just kills. Main reason is that it does a ton of damage to offset having no base knockback.

Inversely, Falco's Ftilt also has no base, but has a normal growth of 100. You'd think that it'd be great for low percent chain-poking, but you're wrong. Even though it does 9%, most characters can tank the hit like it was his jab. I don't even know why since other poke kicks have some base like Luigi's has 2, (Dr.) Mario has 8, and Captain Falcon, Fox, and ZSS have 10. Ryu? He has 66, but that's because his light Ftilt only has 46 growth kind of like how DK's Bair has a ton of base, but little growth letting him chain Bairs like no tomorrow, but in Ryu's case, he has a fast, safe, and strong poke to knock you back unlike the others which cause enough hit stun and knockback to push you out a little and give them time to move and unlike Falco's which doesn't do much until mid-percents.

Basically, as Trifroze said in his post, looking at numbers in black and white doesn't do much. You have to look at everything which is all the other numbers. I mean, could you say Sheik's Ftilt is a good kill move because it happens to have 158 or 165 growth? No, since it only does 4%. Granted, you could say because of the growth, the 20 base, its speed, etc. is what allows it to be such a good combo tool.

 

[UberMadman]

"Tatsu"? What do you mean? Do you mean like how Tatsumaki's not really useful outside of certain situations, but in specific situations, it excels?

No, he means that Lucas' down smash can only hit once before losing its hitbox, similar to Tatsu.

 

[meleebrawler]

No, he means that Lucas' down smash can only hit once before losing its hitbox, similar to Tatsu.

...against one hurtbox. You can still hit multiple targets with Tatsumaki, else it would be useless for plowing through projectiles.

 

[C0rvus]

Are you sure? I seem to recall being able to neutralize Tatsu by throwing an item at it. I am probably wrong though, I'm super awful at Ryu.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Opening frames of Tatsu, true or not, power through alot of ****. You'll end up clanking or outright beating things. Not quite sure exactly when that happens for either version (probably sooner/little longer with traditional inputs), but I'm fairly certain of that.

Also, iirc, the hitbox of Tatsu can hit up to two things before it becomes inactive(?).

Smooth Criminal

 

[RaptorTEC]

That's surprising honestly cause he usually says most losing matchups aren't too bad (except for marth lol)

It's not fun but that doesn't mean it's terrible. Yoshis only terrible mu is Shiek. I haven't played ZSS too much though so I'm not entirely familiar with the mu. In theory, I do think ZSS wins slightly (I just don't see a ZSS losing unless they play the mu stupidly) but it could just be me not knowing how to play against her yet.

Edit: Also, like Emblem Lord said, I do tend to exaggerate at times (usually in person not on forums) I'll complain even after winning lmao.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Opening frames of Tatsu, true or not, power through alot of ****. You'll end up clanking or outright beating things. Not quite sure exactly when that happens for either version (probably sooner/little longer with traditional inputs), but I'm fairly certain of that.

Also, iirc, the hitbox of Tatsu can hit up to two things before it becomes inactive(?).

Smooth Criminal

Ryus leg is invincible during tatsu and will blow through or clank basically anything. The input version just does more damage but thats it.

This only applies to his leg. If you hit his back, his head or underneath him you will hit him out of it.

The move seems janky because he spins thus the hitbox is constantly moving around him.

 

[The Wall]

I don't really see where Yoshi has an advantage against ZSS


It's probably the difference in how good each other play the MU. Yoshi is really weird to play against. Most people play the MU the wrong way.



This has nothing to do with air mobility. Yoshi gets combot by upair pretty well due to his giant hurtbox. You can avoid getting hit due to air mobility but ZSS vertical burst jump movement makes it not absolutely preventable. Out of a grab Yoshi is prone to combos.



How are you going to super armor through paralyser? This should only be relevant if the ZSS is playing the match-up wrong or in a situation where your super armor doesn't do much. The flip kick spike by the way always beats the DJ Armor because it initiates a footstool before the hit.



Of course he has the "tools" to beat her. Yoshi is a good character overall. It's probably still -1 because she has advantages in almost any game state.

As far as the up air up air up b, if you DI it properly as yoshi you will have a moment of action before she connects the next hit as they are not true. That moment of time is when Yoshi's air speed comes into play and you can move further out. Even if she gets 2 hits of up air she should NEVER get the positioning for Boost kick unless you're doing it wrong.

The flip kick does not always beat Yoshi's DJ Heavy armor: Proof

If a ZSS is charging paralyzer, even if it's all the way to full charge, you can just jump right through it. I've done this vs many ZSS and it just negates her using it entirely (at least on the ground).

 

[Mili]

Ryus leg is invincible during tatsu and will blow through or clank basically anything. The input version just does more damage but thats it.

This only applies to his leg. If you hit his back, his head or underneath him you will hit him out of it.

The move seems janky because he spins thus the hitbox is constantly moving around him.

To be fair, half of our main is literally jank

Also he's dumb

 

[Yikarur]

The flip kick does not always beat Yoshi's DJ Heavy armor: Proof

That was the initiated kick. I was talking about the automatic spike. And you have been at almost zero percent. Do you even know how heavy armor works? This is a very poor example because this will not work in 90% of the game.

If a ZSS is charging paralyzer, even if it's all the way to full charge, you can just jump right through it. I've done this vs many ZSS and it just negates her using it entirely (at least on the ground).

Dsmash goes through super armor at higher %. Paralyzing through super armor doesn't do anything because I cannot imagine a single situation (if the ZSS plays the MU properly) where this comes into play.

I'm pretty sure you haven't been upair upair upB combot properly because this has nothing to do with air speed. This will be a true combo at times and you can only guess to get out of it.

 

[RaptorTEC]

As far as the up air up air up b, if you DI it properly as yoshi you will have a moment of action before she connects the next hit as they are not true. That moment of time is when Yoshi's air speed comes into play and you can move further out. Even if she gets 2 hits of up air she should NEVER get the positioning for Boost kick unless you're doing it wrong.

I see this more as the ZSS having poor execution of the combo. It can work even on characters like Jigglypuff who is lighter and who has similar air speed.

If a ZSS is charging paralyzer, even if it's all the way to full charge, you can just jump right through it. I've done this vs many ZSS and it just negates her using it entirely (at least on the ground).

I fail to see how this negates her using it. It beats our armor after a certain percent. Past this percent it suddenly becomes dangerous to drop off ledge and double jump. Our armor beats a lot of moves but that doesn't mean the move is suddenly negated.
For arguments sake, let's say her paralyzer is useless in this mu. Does one less move really make that difference when the character still has multiple kill setups? (since this move is mostly just a kill setup) and that's ignoring the fact that this move does work at higher percents. Yoshis egg lay is a really good move but is basically useless against Rosalina. Does that mean we suddenly lose to Rosalina for this reason? No we just have one less tool.

 

[Dre89]

Does anyone else think Toon Link is really overrated

Some people think he's top 20, I think he's closer to low tier. He just does no damage. He loses to shielding and patient play. All of his meaningful damage comes from JC bombs, so when he's holding a bomb on the ground you don't have to commit anything and just shield it. He has no options when he has a bomb in hand other than his other projectiles which also lose to shield.

He has no real way of threatening shields because he has no shield eating moves and his grab is too risky given it has no reward. You don't have to care about getting grabbed until he can kill you with bthrow.

His frame data is also pretty bad for someone of his short range and light weight. I get that it's balanced around his projectile game, but it means he takes like 40% if he ever makes a mistake. Being gimpable just makes matters worse.

He has good stuff too like being fairly mobile and having decent kill set ups but I just don't see what he has against anyone who is patient and knows how to powershield. You just have so much leeway and time to download the player because his damage output is so low.

 

[The Wall]

I see this more as the ZSS having poor execution of the combo. It can work even on characters like Jigglypuff who is lighter and who has similar air speed.


I fail to see how this negates her using it. It beats our armor after a certain percent. Past this percent it suddenly becomes dangerous to drop off ledge and double jump. Our armor beats a lot of moves but that doesn't mean the move is suddenly negated.
For arguments sake, let's say her paralyzer is useless in this mu. Does one less move really make that difference when the character still has multiple kill setups? (since this move is mostly just a kill setup) and that's ignoring the fact that this move does work at higher percents. Yoshis egg lay is a really good move but is basically useless against Rosalina. Does that mean we suddenly lose to Rosalina for this reason? No we just have one less tool.

"It beats our armor after a certain percent". Yeah, probably at the percent where literally ANYTHING will beat our armor, so why are you trying to use DJ armor to pass through something like that. I eat the paralyzer as a mix up sometimes, but if I don't feel like taking damage but getting the same effect I just jump and nair through it. Rubber boots man.

Egg lay is not useless vs Rosalina. I've used it many times. You just recognize that as you get close to the egg they're going to try to hit you with luma (if he's even there). Shield the initial hit and then you can just plan your attack to be something that knocks luma off stage. That neutral B just gave you a free kill on luma, basically useless right?

That was the initiated kick. I was talking about the automatic spike. And you have been at almost zero percent. Do you even know how heavy armor works? This is a very poor example because this will not work in 90% of the game.

Dsmash goes through super armor at higher %. Paralyzing through super armor doesn't do anything because I cannot imagine a single situation (if the ZSS plays the MU properly) where this comes into play.

I'm pretty sure you haven't been upair upair upB combot properly because this has nothing to do with air speed. This will be a true combo at times and you can only guess to get out of it.

If the ZSS is trying to use the non-activated hit to spike you, what in the world are they doing? Any good ZSS worth their salt will use the activated hit either at an attempt to spike you or ledge cancel with it so they can go into doing other things. Yeah I was at like 9% which is near where the DJ armor would break due to that spike having mad knock back, still worked though.

I would never try to just jump through a down smash with the jump armor. I said paralyzer as in neutral B. Not down smash.

If you're saying that I wasn't getting up air strung properly by a ZSS, please go tell Nick Riddle how to play his character then lol.

 

[RaptorTEC]

"It beats our armor after a certain percent". Yeah, probably at the percent where literally ANYTHING will beat our armor, so why are you trying to use DJ armor to pass through something like that. I eat the paralyzer as a mix up sometimes, but if I don't feel like taking damage but getting the same effect I just jump and nair through it. Rubber boots man.

Well that's exactly my point lol. The move isn't negated for that reason. And if yikarur is right our armor stops working at 70% with this move which is pretty serious considering she can combo down b off stage with it or just a simple up b if we're on stage.

Egg lay is not useless vs Rosalina. I've used it many times. You just recognize that as you get close to the egg they're going to try to hit you with luma (if he's even there). Shield the initial hit and then you can just plan your attack to be something that knocks luma off stage. That neutral B just gave you a free kill on luma, basically useless right?

If you stand there and shield to not get hit by Luma you're wasting precious time to try and punish the egg. She can force you into shield then break out safely. Dabuz is pretty good at it when I play him. You can still punish the egg sometimes and Luma depending on the situation but it's not nearly as effective as any other character. Though I do admit it's useful for getting Luma with the right conditions. This was just my attempt at comparing the 2 situations though. My point still stands that not being able to use a move as effectively has no swing in a mu if you still have many other tools that do the same thing (and this is ignoring the fact that it does in fact work at percents where it matters)

 

[Ffamran]

The move seems janky because he spins thus the hitbox is constantly moving around him.

Adding on, I blame it on its animation. Ryu kind of spins slowly which works in Street Fighter since you don't really have the "flexibility" to move wherever you want in the air and even on the ground. In Smash, it'll just end up looking weird, but if it didn't hit like this, Ryu would be screwed in matches with more than 2 players and maybe even screwed in 1v1 since if it didn't hit behind him well, he'd just wouldn't have a well-covering move. Now, if Akuma was in Smash, then it'd be the same story with how it hits, but because he spins much faster, it wouldn't look as weird. Except Akuma journeying in Tekkan-land, so he's busy kicking fools in the face there. I wonder if Ken will make an appearance in some other fighter like maybe Guilty Gear.

Anyway, that's just how I view it. Yes, it's weird to get hit when his leg isn't there and yes, it's weird to get hit in a "delayed" manner, but the developers had to design it in a way where while it'll look dumb, it'll function to "protect" Ryu. The only thing I don't agree with is its disjoint. A small one, but that's my only problem with it. Oh, and no customs for DLC characters mean we don't have Ken and Akuma versions for multi-hit and faster Tatsumaki. Ryu would have the been the perfect example of customs that used tweaked properties while the Mii Fighters and Pally were the perfect example of customs using different moves. Also, I would have just liked seeing a Shoryureppa - show Mario how multiple uppercuts are really done.

 

[The Wall]

Well that's exactly my point lol. The move isn't negated for that reason. And if yikarur is right our armor stops working at 70% with this move which is pretty serious considering she can combo down b off stage with it or just a simple up b if we're on stage.


If you stand there and shield to not get hit by Luma you're wasting precious time to try and punish the egg. She can force you into shield then break out safely. Dabuz is pretty good at it when I play him. You can still punish the egg sometimes and Luma depending on the situation but it's not nearly as effective as any other character. This was just my attempt at comparing the 2 situations though. My point still stands that not being able to use a move as effectively has no swing in a mu if you still have many other tools that do the same thing (and this is ignoring the fact that it does in fact work at percents where it matters)

I'll test the paralyzer thing at our tournament today to check that but i remember it being higher % for some reason.

You can't say eliminating a move from someone's repertoire has ZERO impact, that'd be just silly. This game is all about min/maxing your situations vs certain matchups and every percent counts. Removing an entire move, especially one with stun mechanics like that is huge.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@Fox Is Openly Deceptive you agree with Dre89 about Tink? I think your the best one to bring in this situation

 

[David Viran]

I'll test the paralyzer thing at our tournament today to check that but i remember it being higher % for some reason.

You can't say eliminating a move from someone's repertoire has ZERO impact, that'd be just silly. This game is all about min/maxing your situations vs certain matchups and every percent counts. Removing an entire move, especially one with stun mechanics like that is huge.

It would be huge if paralyzer was actually an important move. The truth is it's not really that important. Most characters have something to combat paralyzer. I know Nairo thinks the move sucks.

 

[Yikarur]

Dsmash breaks Super Armor. Paralyzer has fix knockback and cannot break the super armor but I can't imagine a single situation where a ZSS would use paralyzer while we are in our second jump.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I'll test the paralyzer thing at our tournament today to check that but i remember it being higher % for some reason.

You can't say eliminating a move from someone's repertoire has ZERO impact, that'd be just silly. This game is all about min/maxing your situations vs certain matchups and every percent counts. Removing an entire move, especially one with stun mechanics like that is huge.

I could have sworn you were referring to dsmash. Neutral B probably doesn't break our armor until super high percent so I guess that's good but I fail to see how this is useful outside of the ledge. In neutral why would we dj in a way to armor it and put ourselves in the air where we can't punish her?

And I would argue that at top level not being able to use one of your moves as effectively shouldn't hurdle you, especially as a character who has multiple other ways of setting up for the kill.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Dsmash breaks Super Armor. Paralyzer has fix knockback and cannot break the super armor but I can't imagine a single situation where a ZSS would use paralyzer while we are in our second jump.

Doesn't ZSS's Dsmash only stun if you are on the ground? (I could be misreading the conversation.)

 

[meleebrawler]

Doesn't ZSS's Dsmash only stun if you are on the ground? (I could be misreading the conversation.)

Paralysis always stuns the opponent regardless of their position, which sets it apart from most other statuses. The caveat being it always lasts the same amount of time regardless of percent.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Paralysis always stuns the opponent regardless of their position, which sets it apart from most other statuses. The caveat being it always lasts the same amount of time regardless of percent.

Tri froze posted a video talking about the triple Dsmash-Combo. In it he talked about timing because Dsmash wouldn't stun if the opponent was in the air, only on the ground. When I was learning the combo I noticed it.

 

[David Viran]

Tri froze posted a video talking about the triple Dsmash-Combo. In it he talked about timing because Dsmash wouldn't stun if the opponent was in the air, only on the ground. When I was learning the combo I noticed it.

That's because you cannot stun the opponent twice if they never touched the ground after the first time.

 

[Sonicninja115]

That's because you cannot stun the opponent twice if they never touched the ground after the first time.

Ooooh, thanks! Sorry for the trouble.

 

[Nobie]

Does anyone else think Toon Link is really overrated

Some people think he's top 20, I think he's closer to low tier. He just does no damage. He loses to shielding and patient play. All of his meaningful damage comes from JC bombs, so when he's holding a bomb on the ground you don't have to commit anything and just shield it. He has no options when he has a bomb in hand other than his other projectiles which also lose to shield.

He has no real way of threatening shields because he has no shield eating moves and his grab is too risky given it has no reward. You don't have to care about getting grabbed until he can kill you with bthrow.

His frame data is also pretty bad for someone of his short range and light weight. I get that it's balanced around his projectile game, but it means he takes like 40% if he ever makes a mistake. Being gimpable just makes matters worse.

He has good stuff too like being fairly mobile and having decent kill set ups but I just don't see what he has against anyone who is patient and knows how to powershield. You just have so much leeway and time to download the player because his damage output is so low.

Ehhh, I've seen Toon Link ranked everywhere from high tier to low tier, and most often mid tier. That seems about accurate?

 

[YoshiYoshi]

<this post doesn't exist>

 

[C0rvus]

I don't think Toon Link is rated at all. Opinions of him are all over the place. He has a decent presence in many countries and he seems to be able to make it far even at majors. He's certainly not bad. I think he's around Olimar and Greninja in terms of tier placement. They seem to be of a similar power level.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm not ready to say toon link is as good as greninja per se, but I know for sure he shouldn't be low tier. The lil guy has results. I mean he's got great projectiles above average mobility, a small frame, and bomb set ups. Toon / Young Link have never really been bad. Being small w/ a good projectile(s) is usually a recipe for being at least decently good in smash. just see:

 

[Dre89]

I don't think Toon Link is rated at all. Opinions of him are all over the place. He has a decent presence in many countries and he seems to be able to make it far even at majors. He's certainly not bad. I think he's around Olimar and Greninja in terms of tier placement. They seem to be of a similar power level.

Most people think he's better than Link, and Link definitely isn't low tier this game. Link is actually better because he doesn't lose to shielding. His projectiles are more to make you approach rather than do damage, so that he can punish you with his good range. He also has better burst against defensive players because of his massive dashgrab, and he's better at killing.

People consider Duck Hunt low-bottom tier but Tink isn't that much better. He just has better mobility and better kill set ups. He still has bad frame data, low damage output against any patient player, and gets wrecked when his zone is broken.

 

[C0rvus]

Why can't Toon Link use his projectiles to make others approach? He has the mobility to actually do other things with them as well. I also don't see how Link beats shields better than Toon Link. Is it a spacing thing? I also disagree with killing. Sure, Link has stronger Smash attacks, but didn't we find that his "kill setups" out of down throw were avoidable in this thread? TL has a kill throw and a number of kill combos out of bomb confirms, which require little to no commitment. I just don't see Link being better when he's slower on top of all this other stuff.

Comparisons aside, it seems like Toon Link has more results, but I don't exactly follow Link, so I could be wrong. Neither of them are that good though lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

Link is actually better because he doesn't lose to shielding.

I stopped reading there.
If Tink loses to shields then Link does about as much if not more: Link's Boomerang is slower in animation, his ground speed is lower, Tink has a stronger kill throw, Tink has slightly safer aerials, and a couple more elements.

 

[Dre89]

I stopped reading there.
If Tink loses to shields then Link does about as much if not more: Link's Boomerang is slower in animation, his ground speed is lower, Tink has a stronger kill throw, Tink has slightly safer aerials, and a couple more elements.

Why respond if you're not going to read what I said. You don't even know then why I think Link is better, so you say things I've already addressed.

Tink is worse because most of his damage comes from JC bombs, but you can just not commit and shield whenever he has one on the ground. He has no way of threatening shields.

Link doesn't lose to shields and patient play as hard because his projectiles are more about simply forcing approaches so he can punish them with his range.

Mentioning the better kill throw isn't that big of a deal seeing as Link has no troubles killing.

Toon Link's better mobility just makes him better at running away. It doesn't make him more threatening in CQC because they have similar frame data but Link has way more range and better damage on-hit. Link simply doesn't need to run away as much because his CQC is better and his punish range is much longer.