Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Rizen]

Luma has item/projectile priority. He can clank, since he is airborne he won't recoil after clanking, but since he is also a projectile he can be clanked by and clank with aerials (example: Mario nair can clank Luma usmash).

Adding to this, Luma when shot out with neutral B is blockable with Link's Hylian shield. Luma's vanilla starbits aren't for some reason.

 

[FullMoon]

Adding to this, Luma when shot out with neutral B is blockable with Link's Hylian shield. Luma's vanilla starbits aren't for some reason.

Starbits aren't considered projectiles, they're basically just a disjoint.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falcon's top tier matchups are just fine. Sheik and arguably Pikachu are the only ones he really struggles with, and I'd say the rest are pretty much even.

Sounds hard to believe. Ryu is even? ZSS? Even if we leave out other matchups that I have my doubts about I'm extremely sceptical regarding these two.

ZSS is probably -1 vs / 0 vs / +1 vs

You're lowballing kind of hard on her matchups tbh. She beats Mario and Yoshi for sure and at least Rosie and ROB are higher than +1. Fox is the only character here that could have a better matchup against her than you imply.

 

[meleebrawler]

I just realized that "trample" probably comes from Magic the Gathering. Thanks, StephenPlays. Disclaimer: I may be wrong with whatever stuff I say here. Anyway, that's [trample] is kind of different. Trample clanks, but goes through - the way I define it is "recoiless". Invincible - I don't care for the difference between intangible and invincible - is just that: invincible. You don't clank with other normal hitboxes like say, Marth's jab, Mario's Ftilt, or Fox's Bair since they don't harm you at all, but you can "clank" or rather, make contact with, other hitboxes like items, projectiles, etc. Then there's transcendent priority which ignore hitboxes and makes it so if you have a hurtbox whether you're a flappy bird or the flappy bird's Blaster laser, it ignores hitboxes. It's like a bypass. The thing is that they pretty much do the same thing, but interact differently.

We could just lump them all together into "priority" and divide into low, medium, and high. Going from the top, high priority should be in order: invincible and trample/transcendent; medium would be disjoints as they're not attached to hurtboxes, but still interact with hitboxes and hurtboxes "regularly", and low priority would be everything else. The tiers could be named whatever like regular, high, and transcendent; mortal, demi-god, and god; or normal, stupid, and disgusting.

Late reply below.

Yeah, I know; it's not a fair comparison as they're not the same moves, but I mentioned how in the frame 16 Dair group, each of them have some kind of merit, some kind of pro to counteract whatever their cons - notably their slow startup - have, and something that makes them stand out whether that's the move itself or how the move interacts with the character. For Roy's Dair, as a move, it's bad and how it interacts with him is also bad. Yes, you're not supposed to use spikes on-stage and from a short hop, but even though Ganondorf and Ike have low jumps like Roy, their auto-cancel windows and/or landing lag is lower than Roy's and you could argue that his overall mobility is what's being used against his Dair to balance it, but then you note how fast Captain Falcon is and even though his Dair isn't a disjoint, it's consistent, it doesn't have atrocious landing lag (compared to Roy's), and its auto-cancel is good despite him being a speed demon. Roy's Dair is just there compared to the other frame 16 Dairs and Dairs in general.

Thing is that it's not a major problem; it's just one bad move Roy has out of his at least 10 other good moves and a bad move in a group of moves where about 20% of them are good.

So... a move like Mewtwo's jab is high priority because it doesn't recoil on clank, even though it's a low damage move that can be overpowered by higher damage ones?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Someone said MikeKirby thinks ZSS vs Kirbyville is evenish? Interesting...if only he could explain to us right now (and how he fares against other top tiers)

Oh @MikeKirby wanna spread knowledge for everyone? Pretty please with a pink puff ball ontop?

 

[Smog Frog]

playing is like a house of cards, man

you put it together so delicately, so carefully, it's beautiful but then it gets knocked down

on the topic of , how good are teleports(in general) in this game for getting out of traps?

 

[LightLV]

Been waiting for someone to talk about this. Quite a few players in NJ feel this way including our ranked players.

Dude loses to several top/high tiers and random mid/low tiers.

Captain Falcon has literally always been like this. It's pretty funny actually.

I don't think his placement is wrong, though. He's got alot of utility under a very low technical wall.

Also, Fullscreen Grab. It's a thing, unfortunately.

 

[ShadowKing]

Even if shiek is very fast a good ryu can beat shiek

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was watching the falcon round robins at 2GGT the other day and the main thing I noticed was how predictable they were in neutral. ZeRo was able to wait until they made a mistake and then punish them for it. Whether it was a DA or a grab. He just rolled/spotdodged and then punished.

playing is like a house of cards, man

you put it together so delicately, so carefully, it's beautiful but then it gets knocked down

on the topic of , how good are teleports(in general) in this game for getting out of traps?

Depends on if you can LC it. When LC, it is very useful, otherwise it is still good, but it can be punishable.

It also depends on which character you are fighting, as Shiek could probably just react and punish with a bouncing fish.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I was watching the falcon round robins at 2GGT the other day and the main thing I noticed was how predictable they were in neutral. ZeRo was able to wait until they made a mistake and then punish them for it. Whether it was a DA or a grab. He just rolled/spotdodged and then punished

They were also doing a lot of really, really silly **** otherwise, sooo

I would take those sets with a grain of salt.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Trifroze]

Sounds hard to believe. Ryu is even? ZSS? Even if we leave out other matchups that I have my doubts about I'm extremely sceptical regarding these two.

Your matchups don't all really need to be even for them to be fine, which is the word I chose to use.

You're lowballing kind of hard on her matchups tbh. She beats Mario and Yoshi for sure and at least Rosie and ROB are higher than +1.

Not really, I'm just not conforming to what everyone else thinks. ROB does fine if he doesn't kill himself to ZSS' bnb combo at 40-50%, and I said that everyone I marked as 0 leans towards being +1. Every ZSS vs Rosalina matchup I've seen (including the ones I've played myself) are close, except Nairo vs Dabuz which is unfortunately probably the only one everyone judges the matchup by.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Someone said MikeKirby thinks ZSS vs Kirbyville is evenish? Interesting...if only he could explain to us right now (and how he fares against other top tiers)

Oh @MikeKirby wanna spread knowledge for everyone? Pretty please with a pink puff ball ontop?

"Even for now, could be better in the future" is the toned down version of what he said. If you PM me your skype I can add you to the Kirby Skype group where he frequents a lot.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Starbits aren't considered projectiles, they're basically just a disjoint.

Her custom Star Bits, however, are considered projectiles. Energy projectiles, at that. It's really weird and makes no sense why default is so different.

 

[Ffamran]

So... a move like Mewtwo's jab is high priority because it doesn't recoil on clank, even though it's a low damage move that can be overpowered by higher damage ones?

Yes and no? You still get what I'm saying, right? Priority is affected by the properties of a move which includes damage which I forgot to mention. I just made groups for priority since some of them function similarly, but are still different.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So Nick Riddle gave me a question that stumped me pretty good and I wanted to share to foster some unique discussion.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Which top tier characters CAN'T win matches using JUST six moves. Obviously it's sub optimal play, but I'm curious to see who people would put. Personally, I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the top tiers BUT

This is a valuable lesson in what we consider mid and low tiers. These characters need EVERYTHING they've got to win while our top tiers could get away with missing tools. These are the characters that have to work harder for the win.

Food for thought.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So Nick Riddle gave me a question that stumped me pretty good and I wanted to share to foster some unique discussion.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Which top tier characters CAN'T win matches using JUST six moves. Obviously it's sub optimal play, but I'm curious to see who people would put. Personally, I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the top tiers BUT

This is a valuable lesson in what we consider mid and low tiers. These characters need EVERYTHING they've got to win while our top tiers could get away with missing tools. These are the characters that have to work harder for the win.

Food for thought.

Pika? He has a lot of aerials and throws, but he can't spam like some other characters can. ZSS and her Uair combo, Shiek might be able to win with Needles, Fair and Dthrow and Uair.

Didn't Esam do a vid on priority? It seemed to explain it really well.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Jab, dair, fair, uair, usmash, utilt, Nair, and bair from Fox.

Sheik has uair, bair, fair, Nair, Bf, ftilt, grab, needles, jab.

Plenty of other top tiers use more than just 6.

I think you have it opposite LiteralGrill . What makes the mid tiers is the fact they are missing moves and tools. The "6" moves are the moves that exploit the holes in the mid tier's moveset which most top tiers have. The top tiers don't need an entire moveset full of exploiting moves lest you have an extremely unbalanced game.

 

[Antonykun]

So Nick Riddle gave me a question that stumped me pretty good and I wanted to share to foster some unique discussion.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Which top tier characters CAN'T win matches using JUST six moves. Obviously it's sub optimal play, but I'm curious to see who people would put. Personally, I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the top tiers BUT

This is a valuable lesson in what we consider mid and low tiers. These characters need EVERYTHING they've got to win while our top tiers could get away with missing tools. These are the characters that have to work harder for the win.

Food for thought.

1.) fair
2.) needle
3.) vanish
4.) bouncing fish
5.) grab into throw
6.) up air

Super un optimal cuz jabs and b-air aren't available but I can see her winning with the six moves listed above

 

[Jaguar360]

Pika? He has a lot of aerials and throws, but he can't spam like some other characters can. ZSS and her Uair combo, Shiek might be able to win with Needles, Fair and Dthrow and Uair.

Didn't Esam do a vid on priority? It seemed to explain it really well.

Quick Attack, N-air, Thunder, U-throw, D-tilt, U-tilt would work just fine for Pika. Recovery/escaping move/potential, edgeguard and followup move, finisher from U-throw and secondary edgeguard, combo starter/kill throw at super high percents, spacing move and anti-air/combo starter.

Edit: If Yoshi was considered to be one of these characters, he would need N-air, Egg throw, U-tilt, Egg Lay, U-air, U-smash and F-air, so he wouldn't qualify.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Jab, dair, fair, uair, usmash, utilt, Nair, and bair from Fox.

Sheik has uair, bair, fair, Nair, Bf, ftilt, grab, needles, jab.

Plenty of other top tiers use more than just 6.

I think you have it opposite LiteralGrill . What makes the mid tiers is the fact they are missing moves and tools. The "6" moves are the moves that exploit the holes in the mid tier's moveset which most top tiers have. The top tiers don't need an entire moveset full of exploiting moves lest you have an extremely unbalanced game.

I think he was meaning what top tiers CAN't win using less then 6 moves. In other words, who relies on their entire moveset and not a death at 30% or a KO punch.

Jaguar360 It would be harder for him then a character like Shiek or ZSS. That was my point.

 

[Trifroze]

I think it's hard to limit anyone's moves to just 6 without immediately making their capability low tier level.

Sheik for example:
- up b (must for recovery)
- down b (worthy for recovery, damage and kill power)
- fair and needles for versatility
- fthrow vs dthrow becomes an important choice between damage and kill power
- if you go for the fthrow then ftilt to extend combos or nair to setup into down b
- if you go for dthrow then uair to get kills off of it

Whatever you choose, I doubt she'd do well.

ZSS on the other hand for instance uses 3 moves for recovery alone. Tether is the most important one (zair may be a better choice over side b in this scenario) while down b and up b serve a ton of other purpose outside of recovery. Then you have room for 3 more, so dthrow and uair. Nair vs bair becomes a choice between safer spacing and better kill power. Out of crucial options you lose either nair or bair, jab, ftilt, dsmash, utilt, fair and potent ledgetrumping due to the loss of side b. Not very good either, but would likely do better than Sheik.

Falcon would probably do just fine with up b, dthrow, uair, bair, jab and dair/dash attack.

Ryu with SRK, light utilt, fair, nair, bair and bthrow/fthrow (maybe dair instead of something?) would probably be surprisingly good too, but not any better than Sheik or ZSS.

E: Strictly speaking all high tiers could very realistically win matches with 6 moves. I think at least Sheik, ZSS, Ryu, Fox, Diddy and Pikachu just lose more than others do.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I think he was meaning what top tiers CAN't win using less then 6 moves. In other words, who relies on their entire moveset and not a death at 30% or a KO punch.

Jaguar360 It would be harder for him then a character like Shiek or ZSS. That was my point.

The moves I listed for fox, bar Nair are essential to winning. Utilt racks damage, fair sets up tech chases, uair is a killer that chains with itself, jab is easy damage, dair leads to usmash, and bairs is for dair into usmash not working yet.

 

[Zelder]

I...think you can do it for Mario? grab+throw (I'm going to list all throws as one move), utilt, upsmash, uair, upb, and dair?


But then you get no bairs, nairs or fmashes! This is an interesting thought experiment.

 

[Djmarcus44]

So Nick Riddle gave me a question that stumped me pretty good and I wanted to share to foster some unique discussion.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Which top tier characters CAN'T win matches using JUST six moves. Obviously it's sub optimal play, but I'm curious to see who people would put. Personally, I'm having a hard time thinking of anyone in the top tiers BUT

This is a valuable lesson in what we consider mid and low tiers. These characters need EVERYTHING they've got to win while our top tiers could get away with missing tools. These are the characters that have to work harder for the win.

Food for thought.

I think that it depends on the difference in skill between the players rather than the character's strength. I have beaten level 9 computers with only one move as Mii Gunner. If the opponent isn't that good, then every character can win with six moves or less. Although I agree that top tiers may have an easier time winning with fewer options, it doesn't mean that every character that is not top tier can't win with only six moves.

 

[Ffamran]

Plenty of other top tiers use more than just 6.

I think you have it opposite LiteralGrill . What makes the mid tiers is the fact they are missing moves and tools. The "6" moves are the moves that exploit the holes in the mid tier's moveset which most top tiers have. The top tiers don't need an entire moveset full of exploiting moves lest you have an extremely unbalanced game.

Yeah, that's how I'm reading it too. Nick's statement seems to be implying that say, even high tier and down, they lack options. Biggest example is Zelda whose usable aerials are just Nair and Uair since Fair, Bair, and Dair are situational. That is not to say she has bad moves, but they are situational; they can easily be broken with minor tweaks. The flipside would be after toning down and although one of them isn't a top tier, Diddy and Luigi had to make use of more moves since their strong and versatile moves were made weaker. DK is heading into that direction with his wacky cargo U-throw which, for me, undermines his other moves. There are also outliers to this such as Dr. Mario, Falco, and Samus who have good moves, but something about them is holding them back; the Doc and Falco are mostly held back by low mobility and having inferior recovery moves to their counterparts and Samus has some under-tuned and some weird hitboxes, but otherwise, they're fundamentally strong characters.

 

[Trifroze]

5 moves could be more interesting and harder to do, since it only essentially gives you 1 recovery move, 1 throw, 1 gtfo move, 1 damage racking move and 1 kill move. Falcon wouldn't care, he'd barely notice if all he could do was up b, dthrow, jab, uair and bair.

 

[BSP]

Assuming item tosses don't count, Pac-Man could do just fine with his specials and Nair. If we're doing 6 moves, throw Bair in too.

I know he's not too tier, but it's fun to think about. It'd take forever to win anything though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Your matchups don't all really need to be even for them to be fine, which is the word I chose to use.

OK but that's quite misleading then.

Because the way I see it if Falcon "does fine against every top tier except Sheik and Pikachu" it can mean that he loses to them -1 and is even or better against everybody else. It can also mean that Sheik and Pikachu are -2 and that he has a number of -1 matchups that include at least ZSS and Ryu. Falcon may not have any "unwinnable" matchups, he may be able to beat even a top level Pikachu or Sheik and he may have decent enough matchups against ZSS, Ryu et al that he can win these matchups without having to outplay his opponent completely. That may all be the case.

But when it's all added up there is no way to argue that Falcon does actually fine against top tier characters in general. He doesn't. He can handle them to a certain extent, better than most characters do. But he does not fine. Not by a long shot.

Every ZSS vs Rosalina matchup I've seen (including the ones I've played myself) are close, except Nairo vs Dabuz which is unfortunately probably the only one everyone judges the matchup by.

Close? How can it be close if Rosalina has lost that matchup virtually every time it happened in high level play [not even accounting for the fact that Choco kinda bodies dudes like Kirihara]? There is no character that Rosie has worse results against. She has notable wins against top level Sheik players. She has notable wins against top level Pikachu players. She has zero wins against high or top level ZSS players. None.
Realistically it has to be considered her worst matchup by a noticeable margin. Calling it +2 would actually be pretty realistic at this point. It also kind of explains why Rosie despite being seen as somewhat flawed still has exceedingly strong results - because her strongest counter is still being inexplicably underplayed, despite potentially being the best character in the game.

I really don't get why people don't play this character a lot more.

 

[HFlash]

5 moves could be more interesting and harder to do, since it only essentially gives you 1 recovery move, 1 throw, 1 gtfo move, 1 damage racking move and 1 kill move. Falcon wouldn't care, he'd barely notice if all he could do was up b, dthrow, jab, uair and bair.

In the neutral, sure this is true. But at least for falcon, the biggest thing that gives him an advantage over the non-top tier characters is his ability to punish. A good mix up with fsmash/fair/dair gives Falcon the ability to either come from behind in games, or give him really early stocks. Plus merely the intimidation of dying to one of these moves is enough to change many neutral situations in Falcon's favor.

But when it's all added up there is no way to argue that Falcon does actually fine against top tier characters in general. He doesn't.

Honestly, if it weren't for the fact that Pika and Shiek can so so safely and reliably exploit his lack luster recovery to the point that there is little counter play for the Falcon to do when off stage, Falcon could play around his disadvantages in these MUs. There really isn't anyway around getting abused off stage. It's like saying "yes, Ness can do fine vs Rosa if he avoids getting his PKT1 absorbed." There are many situations where Ness simply cannot avoid getting gimped in this manner, and this lack of counter play is what makes the MU impossible for Ness. Same thing applies to Falcon vs. Shiek/Pika.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I could maybe see being -2 (I still think its -1 but -2 isn't the most farfetch'ed thing I've ever heard) but tbh is Rosa's worst MU.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

"Even for now, could be better in the future" is the toned down version of what he said. If you PM me your skype I can add you to the Kirby Skype group where he frequents a lot.

Skype? I mean I don't use it anymore....but maybe sometime soon I may if that's the case, but what about this "Discord" I have been hearing of?
Apparently it's a far better version of Skype? If that's the case is it an app or something I can get?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Skype? I mean I don't use it anymore....but maybe sometime soon I may if that's the case, but what about this "Discord" I have been hearing of?
Apparently it's a far better version of Skype? If that's the case is it an app or something I can get?

https://discordapp.com/

It's not amazing but it's better than Skype (which isn't saying much tbh). It's worked pretty well when I used it.

 

[Y2Kay]

Starbits aren't considered projectiles, they're basically just a disjoint.

Luma is a very strange character

Yeah, I called him a character........

 

[Sonicninja115]

Luma is a very strange character

Yeah, I called him a character........

It is Rosalina AND Luma. Though most people tend to not play rosalina and only play Luma.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Dabuz says the MU is not that bad for (Rosa can consistently shut down his neutral or rather MK neutral can be shut down consistently enough to where it's not that bad - Dabuz). Still bad though. . His thoughts on vs is a complete 180 though and he considers it a horrible MU

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Skype? I mean I don't use it anymore....but maybe sometime soon I may if that's the case, but what about this "Discord" I have been hearing of?
Apparently it's a far better version of Skype? If that's the case is it an app or something I can get?

We tried to move, but nobody did the switch.

BACK ON TOPIC:
The ZSS vs Rosa is not bad just because ZSS kills early. ZSS's great range and mobility, including b-air which is safe and sends Luma really far are also reasons.

Using an example with my own main (sorry bout dat) but MK is a pretty **** MU for Kirby (see Abadongo vs TripleR) while ZSS is about even (see Mike vs Larry, because Mike's extremely close set with Nairo wasn't recorded). Early kills don't mean everything.

 

[Trifroze]

OK but that's quite misleading then.

Because the way I see it if Falcon "does fine against every top tier except Sheik and Pikachu" it can mean that he loses to them -1 and is even or better against everybody else. It can also mean that Sheik and Pikachu are -2 and that he has a number of -1 matchups that include at least ZSS and Ryu. Falcon may not have any "unwinnable" matchups, he may be able to beat even a top level Pikachu or Sheik and he may have decent enough matchups against ZSS, Ryu et al that he can win these matchups without having to outplay his opponent completely. That may all be the case.

But when it's all added up there is no way to argue that Falcon does actually fine against top tier characters in general. He doesn't. He can handle them to a certain extent, better than most characters do. But he does not fine. Not by a long shot.

You're overcomplicating this. If Falcon does fine against top tiers, that means they can't all be negative, just as they don't all have to be exactly even. Overall his situation with top tiers is fine, especially for a character who's generally not considered top tier himself.

Close? How can it be close if Rosalina has lost that matchup virtually every time it happened in high level play [not even accounting for the fact that Choco kinda bodies dudes like Kirihara]? There is no character that Rosie has worse results against. She has notable wins against top level Sheik players. She has notable wins against top level Pikachu players. She has zero wins against high or top level ZSS players. None.
Realistically it has to be considered her worst matchup by a noticeable margin. Calling it +2 would actually be pretty realistic at this point. It also kind of explains why Rosie despite being seen as somewhat flawed still has exceedingly strong results - because her strongest counter is still being inexplicably underplayed, despite potentially being the best character in the game.

I really don't get why people don't play this character a lot more.

You don't have to limit yourself to just looking at results, that's what tournament brackets are for. If I try to use matches played by other players as a reference, I'll rather look at how close they were, and whether the players lacked MU experience (like nearly everyone DI'ing ZSS combos wrong for instance). +2 is a fairly extreme number for how close many ZSS vs Rosalina sets have been especially if easily preventable DI mistakes are removed.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'd like to say ZSS vs Yoshi is -1 for Yoshi, maybe even -2. But at the same time no Yoshi mains of course goes up against Nairo Nick Riddle or Choco (DIO/other Yoshi mains in japan), so it's hard to tell.
Dunno if Raptor ever gone up against Nairo, but he did lose to Bengal's ZSS as I'm typing this and I see the bracket so not top level ZSS but mid/high level ZSS so maybe -1 is realistic?

 

[Ghostbone]

1.) fair
2.) needle
3.) vanish
4.) bouncing fish
5.) grab into throw
6.) up air

Super un optimal cuz jabs and b-air aren't available but I can see her winning with the six moves listed above

Replacing vanish with f-tilt might be more optimal. (i mean she doesn't really need it to recover heh)

I mean it's a silly question but yea.


Diddy would get away with
D-tilt
Fair
Grab
U-smash
Side-b
Banana

 

[Vyrnx]

Yeah, there's this thing where people think a bad move or a few bad moves is extremely limiting to a character. I think this comes from the fact that a few really good moves on a character can make that character way more viable. For instance, Ness is made viable by his aerials and grab. Those 5 moves (not counting dair and encompassing throws into grab) carry almost all of Ness' viability.

So the opposite would be true? 5 bad moves = bad character. I see the logic in a way, but it isn't true. Bad moves don't hold a character back nearly as much as universal problems the character as a whole experiences, unless it's a bad grab because bad grabs can actually limit the character.

I'm just throwing this out there even though I think the bad move = bad character argument is starting to ebb, I still see it occasionally.