Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Mazdamaxsti]

Replacing vanish with f-tilt might be more optimal. (i mean she doesn't really need it to recover heh)

I mean it's a silly question but yea.


Diddy would get away with
D-tilt
Fair
Grab
U-smash
Side-b
Banana

"Grab" is 4 moves, so I'm assuming U-throw is his best.

Would lower tiers have trouble with this? Kirby definitely can't do it, he basically needs all 5 aerials and 2 tilts, plus d-throw and b-throw. DDD could survive on n-air, b-air, Gordo, d-throw, and d-tilt I would think. What are some other low tiers?

 

[Y2Kay]

"Grab" is 4 moves, so I'm assuming U-throw is his best.

Would lower tiers have trouble with this? Kirby definitely can't do it, he basically needs all 5 aerials and 2 tilts, plus d-throw and b-throw. DDD could survive on n-air, b-air, Gordo, d-throw, and d-tilt I would think. What are some other low tiers?

Mewtwo would need all his specials bar disable, bair, fair, down tilt, and up throw. Maybe back throw.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

DDD could survive on n-air, b-air, Gordo, d-throw, and d-tilt I would think. What are some other low tiers?

Uh

No. D3 kinda needs his whole kit in order to survive. About the only moves D3 could "live without" are arguably Jet Hammer and dair, and even then I'd still rather have those things available to me just in case.

You'd be stripping away a lot of a character's overall utility through this "exercise" anyways.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

"Grab" is 4 moves, so I'm assuming U-throw is his best.

Nitpicking at its finest: grab is 3 moves: st. grab, dash grab, and pivot grab, which lead to throw is 4 moves: up, forward, back, and down throw, or pummel which is 1 move.

Y'know, I wonder what would have happened if characters had a "Pummel Smash". So, utterly useless at low percents unless your opponent's a moron or suffered from Mario Party 1 button-mashing and stick twirling, but at higher percents, your character, let's say Ganondorf, can do a Pummel Smash that does 20%. This added with a kill throw or a percentage specific throw setup could be the key to guaranteeing them. This could utterly be useless in characters like Fox, Lucario, and Samus, however, it could be done where slower pummels have faster or significantly stronger Pummel Smashes and faster characters have the opposite. Just a weird idea that popped into my head.

 

[Ghostbone]

"Grab" is 4 moves, so I'm assuming U-throw is his best

I don't really consider the throws as different moves
They're all a part of grab, it's like saying that different timings of bouncing fish are different moves.

 

[IsmaR]

There's also DK's Cargo Throw, making it 9 moves total for him.

 

[Goesasu]

Mewtwo's Dair can actually hit below the platform, and it's actually slightly stronger than Captain Falcon's (faster too, but with fewer active frames).

 

[meleebrawler]

Actually, so can Mewtwo's dsmash. Both it and dair work better on taller characters obviously.

 

[Rizen]

Brawl DDD could survive on n-air, b-air, Gordo, d-throw, and d-tilt I would think.

FTFY

SSB4 DDD is much less of a one trick character. He's like Brawl DDD without the OP grab game.

 

[C0rvus]

Not sure if it's been said already, but I think MK epitomizes the 5 moves exercise. He could get by with dash attack, grab (down throw if I must pick 1), up air, shuttle loop, and maybe back air? He's a pretty straightforward character assuming things go his way (which assumes a lot considering his neutral).


Edit: Ffamran Pink Fresh also pulled it off in his set versus Dunnobro, on Battlefield. https://youtu.be/6E7B4744fd8?t=4m21s

 

[Ffamran]

Actually, so can Mewtwo's dsmash. Both it and dair work better on taller characters obviously.

And Lucas's Down Smash... I think... Data says it should, but I don't know if anyone's testing it, I mean, this happened to Boss: https://youtu.be/3nwjSo-vdVs?t=83.

 

[DunnoBro]

Edit: Ffamran Pink Fresh also pulled it off in his set versus Dunnobro, on Battlefield. https://youtu.be/6E7B4744fd8?t=4m21s

I'm still mad that whole thing only happened because people can fall out of my frisbee.

Never using this character again.

 

[Dagon97]

Ffamran Pink Fresh also pulled it off in his set versus Dunnobro, on Battlefield. https://youtu.be/6E7B4744fd8?t=4m21s

And Lucas's Down Smash... I think... Data says it should, but I don't know if anyone's testing it, I mean, this happened to Boss: https://youtu.be/3nwjSo-vdVs?t=83.

Are there anyother examples of this with other characters?

 

[Ffamran]

I'm still mad that whole thing only happened because people can fall out of my frisbee.

Never using this character again.

The freaking drum sound just makes it seem like a cartoon show!

Also, that might be bad, but extended hurtbox plus any move that can reach below and over like Diddy's Dtilt the ledge means Falco's chances of getting onto the ledge low... Thank you, stupid animation for Falco Phantasm. Even though you can hit Fox out of Illusion too like with Ryu's Down Smash, at least he's not sticking out his arm like a moron say, "Hit me!"

Anyway, Pink Fresh abused hit stun preventing ledge grabs and moves that clip below the ledge... Don't want to be the guy who's like, "Hey! You did this and this wrong!", but you did jump into the stage's slope... which Boss also did... This is going to be a running gag with Pink Fresh, won't it? It'll be like Scourge charging Sonic's Side Smash and hitting people because they go stupid and get mesmerized by it.

Hmm, I wonder what would happen if moves weren't allowed to do that... No-brainer since characters like Ike, Lucas, and Mewtwo would probably lose edgeguard options. Eh, it's a Nintendo staple, so it'll stay; Ocarina of Time had one puzzle where you just needed slash with your Master Sword and BOOM! switch activated. At the same time, considering it does hit and despite Lucas not being a common fighter, probably going to be a thing where Lucas players will stand away from the ledge, but close enough where Down Smash can clip through the ledge.

Are there anyother examples of this with other characters?

It's probably going to work on Captain Falcon and Ganondorf because they raise their arms up. It might work on Ryu too, but I don't know... Falco and Fox are probably going to get hit too if they do the hug the ledge thing with Fire Bird and Fox and with how it reaches over the ledge, it wouldn't be unlikely for them to get hit during Phantasm and Illusion which might extend to Ike's Quick Draw. Also going to assume it'll hit DK and Rosalina because of how their Up Specials work.

Real answer: I don't know. The Lucas (and Mewtwo) boards should probably look into this. The Mewtwo boards have looked into hitting below the platform, but I don't think they looked into hitting below the ledge and if they did, then it probably means Mewtwo can't.

 

[Nobie]

So a few pages back I mentioned that I started setting c-stick to Smash for Mewtwo, and I decided to make a video explaining why:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8Z-C4ofjaY

Essentially, because Mewtwo has so little traction, a weird pivot, has a pretty good dash, and has an f-smashes with sweet and sour spots, he has many different ways to space f-smashes that can mean the difference between getting a solid killing blow, or just getting a bit of damage on the opponent. It's also a way to play some nice footsies.

By the way, if you set c-stick to tilts, it won't let you instant pivot f-tilt. You'll just go into a dash attack.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm still mad that whole thing only happened because people can fall out of my frisbee.

Never using this character again.

Poor doggo. Such an interesting character set back by too many flaws. Reminds me of my BlazBlue main, Amane. Cool design, but undertuned.

 

[The Wall]

I'd like to say ZSS vs Yoshi is -1 for Yoshi, maybe even -2. But at the same time no Yoshi mains of course goes up against Nairo Nick Riddle or Choco (DIO/other Yoshi mains in japan), so it's hard to tell.
Dunno if Raptor ever gone up against Nairo, but he did lose to Bengal's ZSS as I'm typing this and I see the bracket so not top level ZSS but mid/high level ZSS so maybe -1 is realistic?

I find the matchup to be +1 in Yoshi's favor. Fought Nick Riddle in friendlies at MLG, wasn't bad at all. You saw me vs Dakpo at TGC, absolutely dominating win. The DJ armor really skews that matchup towards Yoshi.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'd like to say ZSS vs Yoshi is -1 for Yoshi, maybe even -2. But at the same time no Yoshi mains of course goes up against Nairo Nick Riddle or Choco (DIO/other Yoshi mains in japan), so it's hard to tell.
Dunno if Raptor ever gone up against Nairo, but he did lose to Bengal's ZSS as I'm typing this and I see the bracket so not top level ZSS but mid/high level ZSS so maybe -1 is realistic?

Raptor and I have talked about it.

It's not fun in his opinion.

 

[Teshie U]

I find the matchup to be +1 in Yoshi's favor. Fought Nick Riddle in friendlies at MLG, wasn't bad at all. You saw me vs Dakpo at TGC, absolutely dominating win. The DJ armor really skews that matchup towards Yoshi.

I think you might just be better than him, especially at that matchup. Some are calling you the best Yoshi in the country and Dakpo might not even be top 5 ZSS.

 

[The Wall]

I think you might just be better than him, especially at that matchup. Some are calling you the best Yoshi in the country and Dakpo might not even be top 5 ZSS.

It could be a player skill difference but I don't see exactly where ZSS is supposed to get ahead in the matchup. Yoshi has too much aerial mobility to be caught by the up air up air up b rollercoaster of doom. DJ armor can negate the paralyzer, her flip kick spike, nearly all of her moves really. In neutral up close Yoshi can low pro her jabs and up tilt by using a multitude of my own moves like up tilt, down b, down tilt. I dunno, it just seems like Yoshi has the tools to beat her.

 

[Rizen]

The Wall what do you think of the Yoshi/Link MU?

 

[The Wall]

The Wall what do you think of the Yoshi/Link MU?

Lol Link.... oh good god Link. Anyone who knows me in my scene knows that we have a local Link player named Knife who gatekeepered me for the longest damn time. Back then I didn't even play Yoshi or I was brand new to him, I was constantly getting beat and wondering what the hell to do.

Then I stumbled upon the glorious SHAD (Short hop air dodge). Thanks to Yoshi having the fastest air speed in the game and being floaty as balls... I can SHAD and get a nair which is frame 3 or upair which is fame 5 off before landing. If those hit? Combo game initiate baby.

The struggles with Link is obviously his giant sword disjoint with attacks like Ftilt, Fsmash, Upsmash, etc. I'd say that if you want a good chance to even the playing field (You're the Link player here) you pick a stage like... battlefield. Low platforms that your attacks can reach protect you from things like eggs and my down b while allowing you to sweep the ground level with boomerangs and arrows. It kinda forces Yoshi to be above you and approach from the air. If you dodge the eggs that you know are coming properly, you win it with Up Airs or Nairs. I specifically ban Battlefield vs Projectile wall characters like Link, Tink, Villager etc for that reason.

If I'm able to take you to an open stage you better be shaking in your little kokiri boots son. Being able to perform jab imagination (Jab 1 into anything of my choosing) and not having to worry about there being silly platforms to hinder my movement is going to put you in a rough spot. Particularly if I can catch you on a platform at the end of it or at the ledge with jab 1, the options go up. On stage I can't Jab into F smash if you hold shield. On the ledge or at the edge of a platform though now I can. Nowhere to hide from my eggs either. Your one true option in this situation are bombs. Your bombs will actually destroy my eggs and continue their path without exploding. Use this as a way to counter me approaching from the air. Your best tools for spacing are the obvious projectiles you have and using a lot of pivot tilts to keep active hitboxes out. Shoo dinosaur shoo!

I think the matchup numbers vary based on stage, but to average it out I'd put 55/45, Yoshi's favor.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Are there anyother examples of this with other characters?

Robin can pull this off on Battlefield using the Dsmash shockwave hit, by virtue of how thin BF's edges are. Robin may trade, but they're colliding on the stage and bouncing back down.

 

[bc1910]

"Grab" is 4 moves, so I'm assuming U-throw is his best.

Would lower tiers have trouble with this? Kirby definitely can't do it, he basically needs all 5 aerials and 2 tilts, plus d-throw and b-throw. DDD could survive on n-air, b-air, Gordo, d-throw, and d-tilt I would think. What are some other low tiers?

Not a low tier, but Greninja could get away with...

1. Nair
2. Uair
3. Dashgrab (-> Uthrow)
4. Water Shuriken
5. Usmash
6. Hydro Pump

...in certain MUs. Against, like, Ganondorf, I can see that kit working.

In most MUs though Greninja at least needs Jab and Fair as well. He also needs Ftilt, Dthrow and, for recovery, Shadow Sneak. Dash Attack, Dtilt and Fsmash are also useful. So yeah, Greninja doesn't really fit into this.

 

[meleebrawler]

And Lucas's Down Smash... I think... Data says it should, but I don't know if anyone's testing it, I mean, this happened to Boss: https://youtu.be/3nwjSo-vdVs?t=83.

You know I was talking about platforms like Battlefield's lower ones, right?

 

[TriTails]

Mario without any of his aerials bar F-air is a dead Mario (Well, on F3 aerials users... Take out D-air). He also needs all smashes (I don't care how weak D-smash is. It's frame 5), and to a lesser extent, U-tilt (D-throw combos, and it also a combo tool in itself) and D-tilt (A great D-tilt in general. Pops people up for 50/50s (Although, it will only lead to a kill move (F-smash or U-smash) if they airdodge. If they jump away all they'd get would only be U-air(s)). Let's not forget SJP (Recovery), Fireballs, and Cape as well.

Not a top tier or low tier, but Luigi needs:
1. Jab (Setups into grab. FJP if you're lucky)
2. U-tilt (Juggle and combo purposes. Landing this move often nets you the momentum, which can branch into a lot of things)
3. All smashes
4. All aerials
5. All specials bar Missile
6. All throws (U-throw is good on fast-fallers. F-throw is just F-throw in general)

Nope. Mario Bros. needs a lot more than they seem to. Their games aren't just Super Down Throw Bros.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Raptor and I have talked about it.

It's not fun in his opinion.

That's surprising honestly cause he usually says most losing matchups aren't too bad (except for marth lol)

 

[Emblem Lord]

meeeh. I take what he says with a grain of salt. When we play he just goes on and on about Ryu being dumb. (Which I do not deny) Even if he wins he will just say I wasnt being silly enough with Ryu because Ryu is silly.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

FTFY

SSB4 DDD is much less of a one trick character. He's like Brawl DDD without the OP grab game.

Brawl DDD is possibly only where he's at because he's such a huge gaekeeper thanks to his chain grabs, but even without dthrow Brawl DDD has significantly better hitboxes and moves. Like Smash 4 Dedede could probably shoot-up a few spots on the tier list just by reverting Bair and Dair back to their Brawl incarnation. Smash 4 Dedede in general has a hard time playing the game he wants to play because he can't exactly wall people out like he used to in Brawl...

 

[Yikarur]

I don't really see where Yoshi has an advantage against ZSS

It could be a player skill difference but I don't see exactly where ZSS is supposed to get ahead in the matchup.

It's probably the difference in how good each other play the MU. Yoshi is really weird to play against. Most people play the MU the wrong way.

Yoshi has too much aerial mobility to be caught by the up air up air up b rollercoaster of doom.

This has nothing to do with air mobility. Yoshi gets combot by upair pretty well due to his giant hurtbox. You can avoid getting hit due to air mobility but ZSS vertical burst jump movement makes it not absolutely preventable. Out of a grab Yoshi is prone to combos.

DJ armor can negate the paralyzer, her flip kick spike, nearly all of her moves really.

How are you going to super armor through paralyser? This should only be relevant if the ZSS is playing the match-up wrong or in a situation where your super armor doesn't do much. The flip kick spike by the way always beats the DJ Armor because it initiates a footstool before the hit.

In neutral up close Yoshi can low pro her jabs and up tilt by using a multitude of my own moves like up tilt, down b, down tilt. I dunno, it just seems like Yoshi has the tools to beat her.

Of course he has the "tools" to beat her. Yoshi is a good character overall. It's probably still -1 because she has advantages in almost any game state.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Don't mind me, but I think Link is a tougher MU than ZSS. Link fundamentally destroys Yoshi in a lot of ways that you really have to dance around the edges and hope they screw up enough for you to win. I don't think SHAD or jab to smash is is going to sway the match in Yoshi's favor when everything link does out-spaces Yoshi.

I used to get a hell of a lot of success with SHAD, but players to catch on to it. It's definitely not bad, but you have to predict them to be in endlag when your airdodge is over. SHAD U-air is a powerful kill option, but it's just catching someone's error.

ZSS is a tough cookie because we all know that Nairo plays ZSS and he is a phemon so it's kind of hard to say if anyone on his level has every played against him with Yoshi. All I can say is that the MU is more even than some of Yoshi's other bad MUs.

 

[Ffamran]

You know I was talking about platforms like Battlefield's lower ones, right?

Yes? Lucas just happens to be able to hit below ledges and platforms.

 

[Pazzo.]

Turns out despite Lucas' down smash now working like a Tatsu, it still has utility.

I wonder what other "nerfed" moves have utility?

 

[Y2Kay]

Turns out despite Lucas' down smash now working like a Tatsu, it still has utility.

I wonder what other "nerfed" moves have utility?

The only one i can think of is how Cap'n Falcon's uair links into itself after the nerf

 

[Dagon97]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJUcNTGivM
At the end of this video it shows a clip of 's fsmash hitting WAY below the ledge and earlier in the video 's usmash having a similar affect but not as far down.

I am surprised I have not seen this in tournament.

 

[Trifroze]

I don't really see where Yoshi has an advantage against ZSS

It's probably the difference in how good each other play the MU. Yoshi is really weird to play against. Most people play the MU the wrong way.

This has nothing to do with air mobility. Yoshi gets combot by upair pretty well due to his giant hurtbox. You can avoid getting hit due to air mobility but ZSS vertical burst jump movement makes it not absolutely preventable. Out of a grab Yoshi is prone to combos.

How are you going to super armor through paralyser? This should only be relevant if the ZSS is playing the match-up wrong or in a situation where your super armor doesn't do much. The flip kick spike by the way always beats the DJ Armor because it initiates a footstool before the hit.

Of course he has the "tools" to beat her. Yoshi is a good character overall. It's probably still -1 because she has advantages in almost any game state.

Flip kick and the footstool are two different attacks, and the latter kills something like 3-4 times later (30-40% vs 90-120%). Yoshi's mid-air jump negates ZSS' dsmash on the ledge because it won't stun through armor, and eggs cover him really well regardless, defeating ZSS' ledgetraps (ledgetrumping too) which are a big part of her game. Yoshi gets caught by the bnb combo pretty badly but it stops working relatively early due to Yoshi's floatiness, and it's not a real kill combo so it's not that central to ZSS' matchups in general. Yoshi's aerial mobility and pressure combined with ZSS' lack of good rising aerials and OoS options is also a problem. Like mentioned earlier a lot of Yoshi's animations that you could otherwise punish duck hunter ZSS' most moves. ZSS also struggles to beat Yoshi's dair when he's landing because it takes 11 frames for her uair to arc directly above her and the hitbox is quite small.

Yoshi still struggles to close off stocks though, and ZSS' disjoints are pretty tough for him during the times there's some distance between the characters. If ZSS plays the MU right and focuses on punishing Yoshi and avoiding his ground based kill options (+uair), I think it's even though.

 

[meleebrawler]

Turns out despite Lucas' down smash now working like a Tatsu, it still has utility.

I wonder what other "nerfed" moves have utility?

Well, there's things like former kill throws being turned into combo ones (Charizard's dthrow).

Most of the time, these kinds of changes tend to be tweaks or rebalances rather than straight nerfs. Whether it's "buffed" or "nerfed" ends up being determined by whether it's new utility outweighs the previous one.

Dedede has a few examples of the negative variety. While bair and dair give him a meaty disjointed kill move and meteor respectively, they simply aren't as useful as the old ones which gave him a quick aerial footsie and a way to cover his descent reliably. Jet Hammer too, although it's new animation gives it more range, it loses it's former niche of giving Dedede a fairly quick kill move at high percents.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Flip kick and the footstool are two different attacks, and the latter kills something like 3-4 times later (30-40% vs 90-120%). Yoshi's mid-air jump negates ZSS' dsmash on the ledge because it won't stun through armor, and eggs cover him really well regardless, defeating ZSS' ledgetraps (ledgetrumping too) which are a big part of her game. Yoshi gets caught by the bnb combo pretty badly but it stops working relatively early due to Yoshi's floatiness, and it's not a real kill combo so it's not that central to ZSS' matchups in general. Yoshi's aerial mobility and pressure combined with ZSS' lack of good rising aerials and OoS options is also a problem. Like mentioned earlier a lot of Yoshi's animations that you could otherwise punish duck hunter ZSS' most moves. ZSS also struggles to beat Yoshi's dair when he's landing because it takes 11 frames for her uair to arc directly above her and the hitbox is quite small.

Yoshi still struggles to close off stocks though, and ZSS' disjoints are pretty tough for him during the times there's some distance between the characters. If ZSS plays the MU right and focuses on punishing Yoshi and avoiding his ground based kill options (+uair), I think it's even though.

I wonder what MU's are going to look like in the future? Right now, it seems that Yoshi can possibly beat ZSS because he negates a lot of her current moveset an BnB. In the future, however, I wonder if ZSS's playstyle is going to adapt depending on who she is playing. More character specific stuff and strategies etc. I don't know if any of this made sense but it would be cool to see.

Well, there's things like former kill throws being turned into combo ones (Charizard's dthrow).

Most of the time, these kinds of changes tend to be tweaks or rebalances rather than straight nerfs. Whether it's "buffed" or "nerfed" ends up being determined by whether it's new utility outweighs the previous one.

There is also CF's Uair nerf which turned out to be a really good thing. (Is my info still correct?)

 

[meleebrawler]

There is also CF's Uair nerf which turned out to be a really good thing. (Is my info still correct?)

Not much of a difference really. It's just less useful as an easy-peasy kill move, like with the bair nerf.

Though it's a common trend that nerfing a move's knockback and/or damage makes it better at comboing.

 

[Trifroze]

It's a myth really that lesser knockback makes a move better at comboing. Lesser knockback means lesser hitstun, so while it lets you combo with an attack further, you also can't combo with it as early as you could before. It's the exact same for comboing, the range where it does just got switched forward a little. A move becoming better for comboing due to damage nerfs is only true if it works from 0%, and Falcon's uair doesn't start linking until around 20%+.

I have to clarify though that low BKB, low KBG and low endlag are what matters for comboing. In the case of damage nerfs I believe it's only BKB which decreases, so it only switches the range this way.