Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Wintermelon43]

We need a FFA thread.

 

[Sonicninja115]

We need a FFA thread.

We are technically allowed to talk about FFA. It says so in the discussion topics...

 

[NachoOfCheese]

We are technically allowed to talk about FFA. It says so in the discussion topics...

 

[ligersandtigons]

http://nintendoeverything.com/masah...out-game-balance-in-the-new-smash-bros-games/

– Sakurai also talks about the difficulty in adjusting balances for things such as four player free-for-alls and 1-on-1 fights
– For these fights, their circumstances are completely different
– This can’t be helped at times, he says
– Ex: some attacks such as Captain Falcon’s “Falcon Punch” might work well when there’s more players, but might not ever hit during a 1-on-1 fight.

Seems pretty clear to me that the developers take both FFAs and 1v1s into consideration when balancing characters. Key part: FFAs AND 1v1s

This can also explain why for example, DDDs jet hammer feels so useless. The attack is clearly designed for FFAs where its actually pretty easy to get hits with.

 

[Rikkhan]

More than FFA vs 1v1, I think Nintendo gives much more importance to low level smash (FFA and FG) rather than high level 1v1, a lot of patches did remove "techs" probably because they we're against the essence of smash (pick and play no skill required), little mac was obviously nerfed because FG couldn't handle him, Diddy and Luigi nerfs could be seen as potentially hurtful to FG users. I remember when the game was fresh a lot of people here were overrating VANILLA shulk, but even with that hype he was buffed subtancially, very likey beacuse he had awful FG winrate, Dedede gordos were nerfed also probably because it was to hard for FG people to reflect them. Frankly I'm still surprised that things like perfect pivot, momentum reversing and other sheaningans are still there.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Certain momentum techs can't be removed because of how the moves buffer. I don't see B-reversing going away any time soon.

I wonder if Jump-canceled Usmashing could be on the chopping block though.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Certain momentum techs can't be removed because of how the moves buffer. I don't see B-reversing going away any time soon.

I wonder if Jump-canceled Usmashing could be on the chopping block though.

It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to remove those without making up smashes insanely difficult for tap jump users. And before anyone mentions the c-stick, I believe the wiimote on its side is still a control option.

 

[Antonykun]

Luma's frame data is way, way worse than Sheik's. Luma kills well but also does horrible damage, and Luma doesn't exactly extend its "limbs" very far when it attacks. I think literally every one of Luma's moves is really unsafe on block too; if Luma is pressuring you without Rosalina being there, you probably have windows where you can just kill Luma.

Again, I'm not saying Rosalina is bad (she's very good), but I think a lot of people really overestimate what she can do mostly just a drastic overestimation of her speed since she's really not a fast character in any way at all. She's actually a pretty well balanced character in the current build; she's super punishing to opponents who don't know what to do, but seeing as she requires a substantial effort investment to play at a high enough level to take advantage of that, that's a reasonable dynamic for her to have.

All right being faster than sheik was indeed incorrect but seriously Luma is more or less Rosalina's Disposable Sword than an actual character or rather thats what an unhealthy number of her fandom believes and seriously and really as an extension of Rosalina's hitboxes (aka a sword) Luma is really fast with three frame 3 attacks in the form of up tilt n-air and up air and his damage problem isn't even a problem when you remember who his partner in crime is because rosalina worise abbout damage and Luma does the actual killing

 

[C0rvus]

Is it true that Luma has the priority of a special move? I recall the video ESAM did on attack priority and iirc special moves have inherently the highest priority. I also recall hearing that Luma has persistent special move properties. That would explain his high priority. I may have just made this up, though. Smart people help me! I don't want to spread misinformation, especially about RosaLuma, who seems to be largely misunderstood as is.

 

[Nobie]

More than FFA vs 1v1, I think Nintendo gives much more importance to low level smash (FFA and FG) rather than high level 1v1, a lot of patches did remove "techs" probably because they we're against the essence of smash (pick and play no skill required), little mac was obviously nerfed because FG couldn't handle him, Diddy and Luigi nerfs could be seen as potentially hurtful to FG users. I remember when the game was fresh a lot of people here were overrating VANILLA shulk, but even with that hype he was buffed subtancially, very likey beacuse he had awful FG winrate, Dedede gordos were nerfed also probably because it was to hard for FG people to reflect them. Frankly I'm still surprised that things like perfect pivot, momentum reversing and other sheaningans are still there.

Just my 2 cents.

I never saw the Little Mac Side B nerf as being because of For Glory, but rather because Little Mac still flew too far for a character who was supposed to have a terrible recovery. It was out of character for how he was envisioned, so he was brought in line.

As for the other early nerf, 20% off of a jab combo affects all levels of play from low to high. Get jabbed once and most characters are in death by KO punch range.

 

[Lavani]

Is it true that Luma has the priority of a special move? I recall the video ESAM did on attack priority and iirc special moves have inherently the highest priority. I also recall hearing that Luma has persistent special move properties. That would explain his high priority. I may have just made this up, though. Smart people help me! I don't want to spread misinformation, especially about RosaLuma, who seems to be largely misunderstood as is.

Luma has item/projectile priority. He can clank, since he is airborne he won't recoil after clanking, but since he is also a projectile he can be clanked by and clank with aerials (example: Mario nair can clank Luma usmash).

 

[Jams.]

Luma has item/projectile priority. He can clank, since he is airborne he won't recoil after clanking, but since he is also a projectile he can be clanked by and clank with aerials (example: Mario nair can clank Luma usmash).

Would it be accurate to say that in terms of priority, Luma acts similarly to Brawl 's Mach Tornado?

 

[Lavani]

Would it be accurate to say that in terms of priority, Luma acts similarly to Brawl 's Mach Tornado?

I didn't really get into Brawl, but from what I'm reading about it on ssbwiki, probably.

It is worth noting though that Mach Tornado being multihit means it could clank one hit and have followup hitboxes still connect on the opponent. Outside of Luma's rapid jab he doesn't have those sorts of multihits, so when he gets clanked that's it for that attack.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I thought Luma had the "trample" property, whatever that is. /shrug

 

[Lavani]

I thought Luma had the "trample" property, whatever that is. /shrug

That's some weird and unnecessary name someone came up with for not recoiling. All aerials are like that - go clank Luigi fireballs with various characters' aerials, you'll see what I mean. Luma's always airborne, so he follows the same rules.

 

[Ffamran]

I thought Luma had the "trample" property, whatever that is. /shrug

I just realized that "trample" probably comes from Magic the Gathering. Thanks, StephenPlays. Disclaimer: I may be wrong with whatever stuff I say here. Anyway, that's [trample] is kind of different. Trample clanks, but goes through - the way I define it is "recoiless". Invincible - I don't care for the difference between intangible and invincible - is just that: invincible. You don't clank with other normal hitboxes like say, Marth's jab, Mario's Ftilt, or Fox's Bair since they don't harm you at all, but you can "clank" or rather, make contact with, other hitboxes like items, projectiles, etc. Then there's transcendent priority which ignore hitboxes and makes it so if you have a hurtbox whether you're a flappy bird or the flappy bird's Blaster laser, it ignores hitboxes. It's like a bypass. The thing is that they pretty much do the same thing, but interact differently.

We could just lump them all together into "priority" and divide into low, medium, and high. Going from the top, high priority should be in order: invincible and trample/transcendent; medium would be disjoints as they're not attached to hurtboxes, but still interact with hitboxes and hurtboxes "regularly", and low priority would be everything else. The tiers could be named whatever like regular, high, and transcendent; mortal, demi-god, and god; or normal, stupid, and disgusting.

Late reply below.

I don't know if it's very useful to rank Dairs by their landing lag, since they're intended usually to be used offstage unless you're Ganon, who gets a good advantage from using it onstage unless its power shielded.

Of course some people have Dairs that are super useful everywhere. But we also have characters who can combo you to 40% with Ftilt and Fair, so meh. >_>

Yeah, I know; it's not a fair comparison as they're not the same moves, but I mentioned how in the frame 16 Dair group, each of them have some kind of merit, some kind of pro to counteract whatever their cons - notably their slow startup - have, and something that makes them stand out whether that's the move itself or how the move interacts with the character. For Roy's Dair, as a move, it's bad and how it interacts with him is also bad. Yes, you're not supposed to use spikes on-stage and from a short hop, but even though Ganondorf and Ike have low jumps like Roy, their auto-cancel windows and/or landing lag is lower than Roy's and you could argue that his overall mobility is what's being used against his Dair to balance it, but then you note how fast Captain Falcon is and even though his Dair isn't a disjoint, it's consistent, it doesn't have atrocious landing lag (compared to Roy's), and its auto-cancel is good despite him being a speed demon. Roy's Dair is just there compared to the other frame 16 Dairs and Dairs in general.

Thing is that it's not a major problem; it's just one bad move Roy has out of his at least 10 other good moves and a bad move in a group of moves where about 20% of them are good.

 

[Dre89]

Am I the only person who think Falcon is really overrated

I think he's only mid tier. All the guy has is speed and low percent gimps. Unless you're one of those characters that he has those throw combos on he has a lot of trouble killing without rage. He just has so many flaws.

Despite his speed so many characters can walk him out or just capitalise on his bad disadvantage and recovery. He just seems like one of those characters that everything works on. Combos, rising aerials, frame traps etc.

His speed can be overwhelming at first but once you have enough experience against him or with him you realise he struggles in a lot of MUs

 

[Smog Frog]

all he has is speed and low % gimps? i'm skeptical. are you including his juggling abilities?

anyways i'm skeptical that he's below mid-high tier. he does have a ****ty disadvantage but he has a great neutral/advantage. smash 4 is a neutral-heavy game and having a good neutral is more influential than having a bad disadvantage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Am I the only person who think Falcon is really overrated

I think he's only mid tier. All the guy has is speed and low percent gimps. Unless you're one of those characters that he has those throw combos on he has a lot of trouble killing without rage. He just has so many flaws.

Despite his speed so many characters can walk him out or just capitalise on his bad disadvantage and recovery. He just seems like one of those characters that everything works on. Combos, rising aerials, frame traps etc.

His speed can be overwhelming at first but once you have enough experience against him or with him you realise he struggles in a lot of MUs

Been waiting for someone to talk about this. Quite a few players in NJ feel this way including our ranked players.

Dude loses to several top/high tiers and random mid/low tiers.

 

[LiteralGrill]

To me, Falcon seems to be the line of "viable" in terms of the top tiers. As in characters who if are being solo mained will be consistently seen in top 8s at majors. That's basically the reason I wouldn't set him into that mid tier level, but probably right near or at the end of what we consider "top" (I think Ness is right in front of him too, wherever they go).

 

[Smog Frog]

his mu with seems too poor to be solo viable.

 

[TriTails]

If we are going to say Falcon's overrated because of his crap disadvantage/recovery, then Fox should go with him too.

Albeit, top tier? Nah, Falcon feels more like low high tier to me. But y'all can't underestimate the fact that with a slidey dashgrab + disjointed dash attack + 2nd fastest running speed, Falcon can punish just about EVERYTHING. You either not whiff or overcommit, you'll be trained over and proceeded to get U-air string'd.

I'd be interested to hear on his ZSS and Rosa MU tho. Some say he's advantaged against Rosa but... I'm kinda not seeing it?

 

[DunnoBro]

his mu with seems too poor to be solo viable.

Pika's a bigger issue

Same issues of neutral and disadvantage as sheik essentially, but can't even get by on a punish game due to pika's smaller floatier flame disallowing high reward combos.

He's got the combo/punish game of a top tier but his bottom tier disadvantage holds him back.

If we are going to say Falcon's overrated because of his crap disadvantage/recovery, then Fox should go with him too.

Not even close. Fox is smaller, better aerial acceleration, recovery, and can cross people up with return-to-neutral kill confirms like dair, nair, and phantasm. (A stall in reflector is helpful too)

Some say he's advantaged against Rosa but... I'm kinda not seeing it?

Have you ever seen falcon vs rosa?

He probably plays around luma better than anyone in the game. Jab, and dash attack kill luma and his dash grab has a slide that disallows the usually disruption from throw combos Rosalina gets to enjoy. (Fthrow can also kill luma)

 

[RonNewcomb]

I just realized that "trample" probably comes from Magic the Gathering. Thanks, StephenPlays. Disclaimer: I may be wrong with whatever stuff I say here. Anyway, that's [trample] is kind of different. Trample clanks, but goes through - the way I define it is "recoiless". Invincible - I don't care for the difference between intangible and invincible - is just that: invincible. You don't clank with other normal hitboxes like say, Marth's jab, Mario's Ftilt, or Fox's Bair since they don't harm you at all, but you can "clank" or rather, make contact with, other hitboxes like items, projectiles, etc. Then there's transcendent priority which ignore hitboxes and makes it so if you have a hurtbox whether you're a flappy bird or the flappy bird's Blaster laser, it ignores hitboxes. It's like a bypass. The thing is that they pretty much do the same thing, but interact differently.

I think Trample should be called Clank, and Clank called Clank-Cancellable.

 

[Y2Kay]

I like Captain Falcon and I still think of him as a high tier character, but when you think of the other high tiers I would rather be the other characters right now. and maybe are honestly in a better position in this meta as of now. So yeah, i guess he is a mid tier...... or maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon's top tier matchups are just fine. Sheik and arguably Pikachu are the only ones he really struggles with, and I'd say the rest are pretty much even. I think Falcon may actually be underrated because literally everyone has at least decent MU experience vs him at this point, whereas it's not the case for every character.

Calling Falcon mid tier is just silly unless mid tier starts after ~15 characters, since he essentially has Luigi's grab reward, Greninja's mobility and a level of kill potential somewhere below Ryu, but then in disadvantage he dies harder than DK (but still not harder than Mac overall).

Results agree as well, Falcon has been doing well consistently, then he just always dies somewhere between top 16 and top 4 because Sheiks and reasons.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, Falcon is the same as ever. He has good neutral and great advantage, but awful recovery/disadvantage. He's undoubtedly high tier when things are going his way, but his lows are low. I struggle to consider him the "gatekeeper" that Zero and others think, because even as lower tier characters, I'm not afraid of him. As Mega Man, I can still edgeguard the living s*** out of him, and he's combo food for any character with strong BnB's. It's hard to place him, and Wario for that matter, because of how inconsistent they are by nature.

 

[thehard]

More than FFA vs 1v1, I think Nintendo gives much more importance to low level smash (FFA and FG) rather than high level 1v1, a lot of patches did remove "techs" probably because they we're against the essence of smash (pick and play no skill required), little mac was obviously nerfed because FG couldn't handle him, Diddy and Luigi nerfs could be seen as potentially hurtful to FG users. I remember when the game was fresh a lot of people here were overrating VANILLA shulk, but even with that hype he was buffed subtancially, very likey beacuse he had awful FG winrate, Dedede gordos were nerfed also probably because it was to hard for FG people to reflect them. Frankly I'm still surprised that things like perfect pivot, momentum reversing and other sheaningans are still there.

Just my 2 cents.

Having a polished game takes precedence over glitches and unintended side effects maybe enhancing gameplay. Something like Toon Link's landing lag cancel bomb stuff neither makes sense nor makes the game any better- in fact I can't think of much "tech" that's been patched out that I miss.

IMO, these situations need to be handled one of two ways: Removal, or official, documented implementation. An example of the latter being rocket jumping in arena shooters.

Good tech = stuff born out of creative, intuitive gameplay interactions, stuff you can find on your own and not have to look at nerd forums to learn

 

[Sonicninja115]

Having a polished game takes precedence over glitches and unintended side effects maybe enhancing gameplay. Something like Toon Link's landing lag cancel bomb stuff neither makes sense nor makes the game any better- in fact I can't think of much "tech" that's been patched out that I miss.

IMO, these situations need to be handled one of two ways: Removal, or official, documented implementation. An example of the latter being rocket jumping in arena shooters.

Good tech = stuff born out of creative, intuitive gameplay interactions, stuff you can find on your own and not have to look at nerd forums to learn

For the record, isn't this a nerd forum? We are discussing a competitive video game, and crafting theories...

If not, the nerd forums are insulted.

 

[BSP]

His speed can be overwhelming at first but once you have enough experience against him or with him you realise he struggles in a lot of MUs

Been waiting for someone to talk about this. Quite a few players in NJ feel this way including our ranked players.

Dude loses to several top/high tiers and random mid/low tiers.

Who does have notable struggles with outside of and ? Those two are probably to the point where he shouldn't be winning them at high level, which is a problem, but does anyone else get that bad?

 

[Trifroze]

I think some of the most interesting competitive games emerge due to unintended tech, mainly because the most creative things are logically the ones you never intentionally come to think of. While not competitive games in the traditional sense, the speedrunning scene has always been a good example of this. Some unintended tech can be detrimental to the accessibility of the game though, and accessibility is one of the most important things for a fighting game since the community ultimately drives the competition. I think it's fine to deal with unintended tech on a case by case basis (from the patch team's viewpoint).

 

[Mario766]

Falcons have had noticable problems with Ike, just like Sonic.

Albeit how few and in between the Ikes are. Fatality has a huge issue with the character

 

[Dre89]

I feel like Falcon's neutral is being overrated here. It's good because of his speed and dash grab attack/burst but it's not top tier because he can't force approaches and he struggles to get past good hitboxes despite his speed if you keep your own movement unpredictable enough. He's particularly vulnerable to pivot grabs and perfect pivot spacing due to his reliance on burst.

He has stuff at low percents but proper DI and double jumping nullifies a lot of his threat. If he drags you offstage DIing away will often work because he will normally have to recover before you do.

I get the feeling that the players who don't have hundreds of games with/against him are the ones who think he's high tier. Every experienced player I know thinks he's overrated.

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon isn't MK in neutral. He has falling aerials that give him effective frame advantage to ~99% of all OoS options in the game and lead to combos and grabs, and he has no problems trading with hitboxes that aren't disjoints, or just outwalling people with bair. His burst range generally forces more actions that can be punished (jumps) than most characters realistically force with any projectile or long range attack. DI and mid-air jumps nullify a lot in this game, and unpredictable movement is player based, not character based.

I think people who call Falcon overrated have never actually played one that's on their own level or higher, but everyone has played versus some sort of a Falcon because everyone pockets him.

A Falcon player whose reads are on the same level as yours and who traps landings and ledge getups is a nightmare to reset back to neutral against.

 

[Nobie]

While dash grab and dash attack are the main reasons Falcon's neutral is rated highly, I don't think they're the only things that contribute to that idea.

Falcon also has a frame 3 jab that can be spammed, and leads into Gentleman for potential KOs at higher percents. His smash attacks are pretty much safe on block, and his down smash has low recovery time for a smash attack. Raptor Boost jerks his body back to avoid hits and then comes in for another potential KO. Knee can actually just straight up eat through certain projectiles and continue forward. Fairly long limbs contribute to footsies.

I'm sure Captain Falcon opinion is exacerbated by For Glory, where no platforms and lag means Falcon dash grab is scum of the Earth. It's also certainly the case that characters that struggle more with rushdown are the ones who have trouble fighting Falcon the most. But are we calling him mid tier just because the characters better than him also tend to be pretty fast/have ways to deal with speed (if they can fight Sonic they probably can fight Falcon)? I know that sounds like an obvious "duh," but there's something strange about making the line between high and mid tier increasingly unforgiving, especially if Falcon isn't too lacking in results.

Edit: Also is it just me, or is "reads" this weird dirty word in Smash that it isn't in other fighting games? Hearing commentators discuss a reads-based character in other fighting games, they usually speak of it in glowing terms, but in Smash it's like reads are seen as inherently inferior and an improper way to play.

 

[thehard]

I think some of the most interesting competitive games emerge due to unintended tech, mainly because the most creative things are logically the ones you never intentionally come to think of. While not competitive games in the traditional sense, the speedrunning scene has always been a good example of this. Some unintended tech can be detrimental to the accessibility of the game though, and accessibility is one of the most important things for a fighting game since the community ultimately drives the competition. I think it's fine to deal with unintended tech on a case by case basis (from the patch team's viewpoint).

Yeah, if wavedashing and DACUS are for some reason in Smash 5, that's fine- my enjoyment of the game isn't really affected (actually that's not true because I think they both look dumb in the context of Smash)- they just need to be accessible and polished and taken into consideration when balanced. Also, the designer in me places a lot of interest on techs "making sense", to bring up rocket jumping again, imagine an arena shooter player's mindset:

Rockets deal damage and knockback to enemies > self-damage is on > I can shoot the ground next to me while jumping to gain a boost in mobility and positional advantage at the cost of health

A logical train of thought begetting a very special movement option.

But this is CCI and not Game Design General so I'll stop now

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

looses hard to while sheik has mutiple top level representation which is bad since any falcon only 1 (fatality) who gets top placing at nationals get shutdown by sheik players. Having a un-winnable - near unwinnable (mutiple people have stated this MU is awful ) MU against the most commonly played characters at top level can impede a character viability (ex. vsalthough only counters not the potentially hsrd counter falcon MIGHT HAVE you get the message I hope ...)

MU's
- 2 or -3: (she wins neutral, brutal advantage state vs him, and a much better disadvantage vs him yeah yeah common sheik things but the difference of both characters states and interactions in the MU is large)(stronger advantage, better Disadvantage. Knowledge of the neutral is limited on my part ... )

-1: (better advantage, better disadvantage, I see falcon slightly winning neutral

I also see falcon possibly having a slight disadvantage vs due to her devastating off stage game which matters more due to the risk of losing a stock or losing.

Other then that I see Falcon going mostly even with rest of top tier while possibly having some advantage MU's. We really cannot say if he loses to random mid tiers due to no consistent or near consistent top level play. I assume that it's mostly because most mid-tiers are irrelevant at top 16 at nationals and get eliminated regardless (even some high tiers are rare too ) etc.. but I don't really see any character outside of Top tier/high giving him any problems since his neutral is just strong while having a better advantage state then the majority of mid tiers.

His nerfs to his bair and uair were rather unfortunate since that was really good vs his bad MU'S. He's a really good character though until you play one of his counter MU"s and realize they don't really have weaknesses while he does.

On the topic of MU's, I have a feeling that
probably has a advantage over the majority of top tiers while going even or loosing to . If you look at all these MU'S you'll notice that they all give ZSS trouble in the neutral while also being able to somewhat pressure ZSS in disadvantage (most notably Villager). Then I look at the other characters and I can only see them giving ZSS slight trouble in the Neutral while not being able to really pressure her in disadvantage. I mean if you look at most top level matches yeah ZSS may be loosing neutral but she usually ends up killing the other character either relatively early or just plain up killing. I put the ability and consistency to kill very highy in this game and the fact you have characters like who reliably can kill either with spikes or BnB kill confirmed at relativity lower percents or you know. ..mm can randomly kill you for an overextended action (examples can be Nairo vs 6wx, Nairo vs Fatality, Nairo vs MVD. These are the only one I've seen live)... If you don't dont have a distinct advantage over her, then I just dont really see you winning or going even in the MU since you can't keep up overall, with her High Kill Rate. Also another thing, The better you are as a player greatly effects how ZSS will perform more so then other characters since her reward and means of getting that reward is ridiculously skewed for her compared to other characters. I hope I have somewhat contributed to something.

Edit: Also Falcon is not Mid tier. He's on a different level of viability then most characters in the game while only struggling against 2 characters. Most mid tiers just straight up get countered or have slight disadvantage against most of the strong top tiers in the game

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS is probably -1 vs / 0 vs / +1 vs / +2 vs

Don't know about Peach (despite playing the MU a lot), Olimar or Pits. I don't think anyone lower has a positive or even MU vs her, but I wouldn't be surprised about Toon Link or Pac-Man due to really ruining her juggles and outperforming in neutral.

If the 0s lean on either side, they lean on the side of +1 in every case except maybe Villager. Ness' double aerials and rising aerials are a pain for ZSS, while Mario's and Yoshi's aerial pressure can also challenge her really well. Diddy is annoying mainly for his rising aerials too, and the small size never helps with spacing leniency for ZSS (similar case with all the others too, Yoshi because of his very low animations). ROB I genuinely feel is only +1, but I'm not closing +2 out. Neutral is actually difficult vs him even if you focus on gyro and grabs.

 

[Djmarcus44]

ZSS is probably -1 vs / 0 vs / +1 vs / +2 vs

Don't know about Peach (despite playing the MU a lot), Olimar or Pits. I don't think anyone lower has a positive or even MU vs her, but I wouldn't be surprised about Toon Link or Pac-Man due to really ruining her juggles and outperforming in neutral.

If the 0s lean on either side, they lean on the side of +1 in every case except maybe Villager. Ness' double aerials and rising aerials are a pain for ZSS, while Mario's and Yoshi's aerial pressure can also challenge her really well. Diddy is annoying mainly for his rising aerials too, and the small size never helps with spacing leniency for ZSS (similar case with all the others too, Yoshi because of his very low animations). ROB I genuinely feel is only +1, but I'm not closing +2 out. Neutral is actually difficult vs him even if you focus on gyro and grabs.

Mii Gunner arguably has an even matchup with ZSS (3312 especially), although more discussion from both sides would be needed to confirm it.

 

[Dre89]

Falcon isn't MK in neutral. He has falling aerials that give him effective frame advantage to ~99% of all OoS options in the game and lead to combos and grabs, and he has no problems trading with hitboxes that aren't disjoints, or just outwalling people with bair. His burst range generally forces more actions that can be punished (jumps) than most characters realistically force with any projectile or long range attack. DI and mid-air jumps nullify a lot in this game, and unpredictable movement is player based, not character based.

I think people who call Falcon overrated have never actually played one that's on their own level or higher, but everyone has played versus some sort of a Falcon because everyone pockets him.

A Falcon player whose reads are on the same level as yours and who traps landings and ledge getups is a nightmare to reset back to neutral against.

I've actually played the best Falcon in my country around 1-2k times, who is leagues beyond me in skill and has won over 90% of those games. Both of us think he's overrated. I'm sensible enough to not base character and MU impressions off my own personal results because I'm not a good enough player. I base my impressions off the tools of the characters, and my impressions don't correlate to my results at all lol.

You're also talking as if Falcon's opponents don't have proper experience in the MU. Shielding should be an infrequent mix up as opposed to a bnb option in neutral because of the falling aerials you mentioned and stuff like dash-dance into dashgrab. But most decent characters in this game either force him to approach, or they out-space/priortise him so the burden is on him not to trade hitboxes. I can't think of a single decent character he can outwall with bair that also can't force him to approach.