Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[MysteriousSilver]

I mean, even if Palutena's isn't the straight worst (which I still think it is, again ignoring moves that clearly have their main purpose as something else) it's not among the best and not an amazing special. So I'm pretty happy to stand by my original assessment of her having crappy specials.

I disagree entirely. It's not amazing, and it's obviously near useless in a number of matchups, but it gives her a unique tool that largely changes how a certain type of character has to approach the matchup. It's a good move, if a niche one. I would say that against mid-range zoning, it's one of the best. And against long range it's sufficient enough to make the differences between them irrelevant. I'm not seeing why it's supposed to be crap.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't entirely scrap it in favor of a wide variety of other Side-Bs, and in particular Super Speed.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall point of her having underwhelming specials, though.

 

[LancerStaff]

Palutena's reflector is great as a reflector. Pit's is much, much worse and I don't see how anyone would think otherwise.

You realize that the reflector and windbox are still active after it's FAF? While this isn't particularly special against big one-shot projectiles like aura sphere (in fact, unlike other reflectors, hers doesn't cover her landings against these very well) but it's an amazing tool against zoners, particularly Villager. It covers all his mid and long range options, and she can begin to take her next action before she's vulnerable to slingshots etc. It also does wonders against fireball-happy Luigis, who also don't have the speed to push through the windbox in time to really punish her for it if she's using it at the correct range.

Pit's, meanwhile, has some hella cooldown time without any real advantages in a 1v1 situation: no one is going to accidently reflect the complete opposite direction of the opponent, covering both sides is pretty useless.

I would probably even run it over Super Speed in the villager matchup in a customs environment, because it completely removes his normal gameplan and his weaknesses (mainly foot speed) start becoming much, much more relevant. I have timed Villagers out on multiple occasions through this.

Don't most reflectors reflect sooner then RB though? Startup, and thus how much time you have to react, is probably the most important aspect of a reflector. The advancing reflector shtick is useful, but I can really only think of a few matchups were it's effective. Besides that it pierces shields making it, in your own words, the worst air grab in the game. As a whole it's not very useful.

GOs do have significantly more cooldown, although it's a much stronger reflector and besides like Aura Sphere Pit doesn't really need to be reflecting since he has arrows. GOs have niche uses in aerial protection and namely gimping. If you use it right against an Ike or Ness's recovery then they're dead. I mean... That's a lot more immediate an advantage then poking a shield on a platform.

Still, some situations I'd take RB over GOs since it deals with characters like Fox better. Likewise, against a Ryu I'll take the chance of getting a gimp over the silly platform poke. And then most characters it would barely matter which you'd bring.

 

[Megamang]

Im thinking the opposite of a vacuum here; how well reflectors fit into kits. Palutena actually has good niche MU against villager, and... samus, megaman? Idk. But im mostly thinking its good because pally would be tremendously ****ed without it against those characters.

So, its good in certain MUs, otherwise youd prefer superspeed. Ideally, she could choose her customs per MU to help her out... well, so would my character, as would almost anyone. You cant show me frame data to convince me she deserves an advantage that we havent granted anyone else. And fwiw, she isnt the only one with radically different customs than defaults.

 

[Mario766]

Unless Orbitars reflect before they come out, which I doubt.

It's frame 9 to Reflect Barrier's frame 10.

The fastest reflects are Nayru's, Fox/Falco at frame 6 and 5, respectively, frame 6 for Cape/Sheet. Though Frame 10 reflects are on the level of Lucas F-Smash which reflects before the hitbox even comes out.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Arkansas's last monthly banned all customs except for Palutena's and the Miis. 90-person or so bracket, and Aerolink went and routed the entire place, losing only one game in the process. Arkansas has since banned Palutena's customs.

If Palutena gets her customs while everyone else is sol, then they're at a big disadvantage. Some characters need their customs to combat the Superspeed + Lightweight + Jump Glide onslaught. Dragon Rush, Kong Cyclone, Speed Thunder/Fire Wall, Relentless Missiles, Fire Arrows, etc. etc. are characters' silver lining in the custom Palutena matchup, but if Palutena gets her while they don't, they may as well be using Palutena themselves.

 

[Mario766]

Custom Palutena isn't even that dumb with customs anyways.

If they get stomped by a good Palutena with customs, they should learn the MU and not *****.


git gud etc

 

[Zelder]

Arkansas's last monthly banned all customs except for Palutena's and the Miis. 90-person or so bracket, and Aerolink went and routed the entire place, losing only one game in the process. Arkansas has since banned Palutena's customs.

If Palutena gets her customs while everyone else is sol, then they're at a big disadvantage. Some characters need their customs to combat the Superspeed + Lightweight + Jump Glide onslaught. Dragon Rush, Kong Cyclone, Speed Thunder/Fire Wall, Relentless Missiles, Fire Arrows, etc. etc. are characters' silver lining in the custom Palutena matchup, but if Palutena gets her while they don't, they may as well be using Palutena themselves.

I'm glad they had the guts to ban the winning character. I assume they did the honorable thing next monthly and banned Sheik.

 

[FullMoon]

MU inexperience goes a long way when custom Palutena can do a lot of things she can't do normally which radically change how she plays.

 

[Mario766]

MU inexperience goes a long way when custom Palutena can do a lot of things she can't do normally which radically change how she plays.

If you know they can use something, and you don't learn how to fight it.

You deserve the loss.

 

[FullMoon]

If you know they can use something, and you don't learn how to fight it.

You deserve the loss.

It is pretty difficult to get proper Palutena practice since she's a pretty rare character to see around, especially good ones and it's even harder to get practice against her customs because of that plus customs for the most part being dead.

I'm not saying it excuses it, because, well, they do have a notable Palutena main around so it's expected they should at least try to learn the MU against her customs variant. But still, even in default we have characters that many times do well because people don't know the MU against them (not to disregard their players by saying that it was said inexperience that carried them, just saying it could be a factor) like Megaman, Pac-Man and Olimar for example.

 

[Djent]

Arkansas's last monthly banned all customs except for Palutena's and the Miis. 90-person or so bracket, and Aerolink went and routed the entire place, losing only one game in the process. Arkansas has since banned Palutena's customs.

If Palutena gets her customs while everyone else is sol, then they're at a big disadvantage. Some characters need their customs to combat the Superspeed + Lightweight + Jump Glide onslaught. Dragon Rush, Kong Cyclone, Speed Thunder/Fire Wall, Relentless Missiles, Fire Arrows, etc. etc. are characters' silver lining in the custom Palutena matchup, but if Palutena gets her while they don't, they may as well be using Palutena themselves.

This is easily attributable to AeroLink being a good player + locals not knowing the MU. is not even top-10 with exclusive access to customs.
For instance, Denti routinely beat him with after adjusting to the nerf. This while playing a character who doesn't utilize much in the way of customs and who many people place outside of top 5, and Denti made it look like a terrible MU for Palutena. You don't challenge her up close because of bair / da / jab, but if you play a more midrange game she's not actually all that threatening. Super Speed and Jump Glide, two of the most initially-overrated approach options, don't do much to fix that. Lightweight is indeed great, but it can't even be abusively reactivated when Palu has an advantage anymore.

Of course, this doesn't answer the question of whether or not she should have access to her customs (and IMO she shouldn't), but no one should still believe that this character is all that great with them. She's not.

 

[Jaguar360]

I was thinking about this with both Zelda Phantom and Palutena's Reflect, which create "obstacles," and they should really stay out longer and let their users move WHILE THEY'RE OUT. They would become powerful space control tools that don't completely eliminate their weaknesses, but at least give them ways to dictate the match.

I don't think this should happen for Phantom. The problem with it is that you can break it. The dev team made Phantom stay longer in one patch, but that effectively nerfed it since it gets broken so often now. It might not be as big of an issue if Zelda had the mobility to protect it though.

I still think Phantom is good as a keepout tool and edgeguard move though. The blindspot removal was really good for it.

 

[wpwood]

And fwiw, she isnt the only one with radically different customs than defaults.

Only Mega Man and Palutena have truly different customs. Everyone else has customs that are a form of their defaults. If that's the character you are talking about then yes you are right. But Mega Man does fine with his current specials (MLG / TO11) while Palutena doesn't do too well with her current set up.

@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster most certainly won the Arkansas monthly because he is a good player AND LACK OF match up experience from the other players. The best way to solve that would to be allow custom Palutena and have her become a common character that people can get used to playing. I can say for certain the the moves a person would have to learn against a custom Palutena would be (up) warp, jump glide, (side) reflect, super speed, (down) lightweight, (neutral) AR, and explosive flame. That's the majority of moves you will see on any custom Palutena and the only ones that are worth, IMO, learning.

Now maybe we could have a community vote on 1 set for Palutena, but that's not a discussion for this thread. Unless by making her a single moveset we are finding the way to make her the most viable, in which case it could possibly be a discussion for this thread. I'll go ahead and say jump glide, lightweight, super speed, explosive flame would make her the most viable.

 

[Wintropy]

For instance, Denti routinely beat him with after adjusting to the nerf. This while playing a character who doesn't utilize much in the way of customs and who many people place outside of top 5, and Denti made it look like a terrible MU for Palutena. You don't challenge her up close because of bair / da / jab, but if you play a more midrange game she's not actually all that threatening. Super Speed and Jump Glide, two of the most initially-overrated approach options, don't do much to fix that. Lightweight is indeed great, but it can't even be abusively reactivated when Palu has an advantage anymore.

I don't think Diddy has ever not been a bad matchup for Palutena. Nerf or not, customs or otherwise, Diddy has a very good kit to play footsies with Palutena and respond well to her forced approach options (her three "super-mobility" customs). Palutena doesn't really have much in the way of mid-range options either: I mentioned that her tilts don't have the speed, power or range necessary to make them proper, practical disjoints, which means she's stuck with...jab, dash attack, f-air and b-air. Noticing a trend here?

This is another big reason why I think her customs don't entirely salvage her character. They open up options, great swathes of options that she can but dream of in her default state, but they don't fix the inherent mediocrity of what moves she has to keep; they just enable her to more efficiently put herself in a position where she can connect these moves. You will still probably ignore the existence of her smashes, her tilts will still be wanting for the safety of other disjoints, she will still be one of the myriad d-throw combo characters, she will still want to use Warp to ledge-cancel d-air to justify its existence. It's great to have options, and it's a vast improvement on her default state, but a good player with a good character will know how to counter her. Her customs don't fix her problems, they don't make her weaknesses magically disappear, they just offer her a different way of working around them. Devote a bit of time to understand the matchup and her customs will just become "good, but punishable" moves.

And that's the way it should be.

 

[Dinoman96]

Mega Man's customs are odd because, despite being more elaborate than most customs, they're still at their core variations of Mega Man's default special moves. The animations for his customs like Ice Slasher and Plant Barrier are still the same as Crash Bomber and Leaf Shield, so in that sense, they're in the same boat as everyone else's customs except Palutena and the Mii Fighters, who all have fully unique alternate moves with not one of them sharing any animations. Mega's customs just have a more elaborate presentation to them.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Mega's customs, I feel, are the most 'balanced' between eachother out of any of them.

Especially after Ice Slasher and Hyperbomb got buffed this past patch, I can't fathom consolidating his move variations into just 10 sets. Seriously, which set with MM /doesn't/ work?

 

[Y2Kay]

Arkansas's last monthly banned all customs except for Palutena's and the Miis. 90-person or so bracket, and Aerolink went and routed the entire place, losing only one game in the process. Arkansas has since banned Palutena's customs.

If Palutena gets her customs while everyone else is sol, then they're at a big disadvantage. Some characters need their customs to combat the Superspeed + Lightweight + Jump Glide onslaught. Dragon Rush, Kong Cyclone, Speed Thunder/Fire Wall, Relentless Missiles, Fire Arrows, etc. etc. are characters' silver lining in the custom Palutena matchup, but if Palutena gets her while they don't, they may as well be using Palutena themselves.

I'm aware of the scene of the Mid south, thought I give my input on Aerolink's utter domination. I really like that ambitious idea for a tourney (customs that come with the game only) and wished they didn't chicken out because one of the best palutena mains out there happened to have come. i can say that frankly there weren't many good palutena mains over here. Not to Mention Aerolink is pretty frickin awesome. I don't want to give too much credit to matchup inexperience cuz of said awesomeness, but it played a role. I know that can be said for many places frankly, but I thought I would give a view from the local area.

Also, Custom Palutena is not OP

 

[NachoOfCheese]

MU inexperience goes a long way when custom Palutena can do a lot of things she can't do normally which radically change how she plays.

100% agreed. Matchup inexpirience goes a LONG way, on both sides. When I play people who don't know the DK or Doc matchup, it's really obvious because they don't know what to respect. Same goes for when I randomly go up against a Lucas or something in bracket and have no idea how to get in. It's a huge factor, and even more so at the local level (it's not as prominent in top level play tbh).

 

[Ffamran]

I was thinking about this with both Zelda Phantom and Palutena's Reflect, which create "obstacles," and they should really stay out longer and let their users move WHILE THEY'RE OUT. They would become powerful space control tools that don't completely eliminate their weaknesses, but at least give them ways to dictate the match.

Or if we wanted it to be lore-friendly, Zelda's Phantom Slash should have her be the Phantom Knight like in Spirit Tracks. So, instead of standing like a moron, she could at least move forward. Plus, it could be another way for her to recover instead of relying on just Farore's Wind unlike Sheik who, since Melee, had 2 recovery moves. Options - it's always good to have options. Oh, and I think they should make it so that Phantom Knight isn't classified as a "projectile". It's horribly telegraphed and being a projectile too makes it even worse. Thinking about it, there is really no reason it should be a projectile. It's essentially a summoned tackle. Question: has anyone ever tried to "reflect" a tackle from a football player? Try it on Ganondorf next time. It'll be fun. I promise.

Also, might have missed this, but of the reflectors, (Dr.) Mario, Palutena, the Pits, and, to an extent, Fox's are all capable of gimping. Falco, Mewtwo?, ROB, and Zelda's can't because of how they work; differing hit angles, Mewtwo's Confusion having different properties on-hit, and while Zelda might, I don't know if the recovery from using Nayru's Love is short enough she won't SD. Everyone knows how Cape works on recoveries and people know that Fox's can gimp, but not as fast or safe like in Melee. They're on-hit gimps while Palutena's Reflect Barrier and the Pits' Guardian Orbitars are more like object gimps. By placing an object, characters won't be able to land or pass through. Ike is notably susceptible if he ends up using Quick Draw a little too low, but a little too high and dashes into the object only to just stop and fall and Aether causes him to hug the object as if they were part of the stage's slope. Zelda's Phantom Slash can also do this, but I think she needs to time it so the slash happens before characters run into the Phantom Knight.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Don't most reflectors reflect sooner then RB though? Startup, and thus how much time you have to react, is probably the most important aspect of a reflector. The advancing reflector shtick is useful, but I can really only think of a few matchups were it's effective. Besides that it pierces shields making it, in your own words, the worst air grab in the game. As a whole it's not very useful.

GOs do have significantly more cooldown, although it's a much stronger reflector and besides like Aura Sphere Pit doesn't really need to be reflecting since he has arrows. GOs have niche uses in aerial protection and namely gimping. If you use it right against an Ike or Ness's recovery then they're dead. I mean... That's a lot more immediate an advantage then poking a shield on a platform.

Still, some situations I'd take RB over GOs since it deals with characters like Fox better. Likewise, against a Ryu I'll take the chance of getting a gimp over the silly platform poke. And then most characters it would barely matter which you'd bring.

I would argue that, within a certain limit, a reflector's startup is less relevant than it's cooldown. Unless you're making hard reads in their face, the number of frames that it's going to take a projectile to travel are often going to eclipse the relatively small startup windows on these moves, and I feel that the safety of making the move is more important. Pit's isn't great largely because of it's awful cooldown, which--if I'm reading the data correctly--requires him to have ~thirty frames of absolute vulnerability to everything. This isn't a move you can throw out against a mid-range zoner: even on a successful reflect there's a reasonable chance you'll get smacked for it depending on the projectile, and if you guess wrong they have half a second to hit you with the projectile -anyways-. Palu's continues to reflect after the animation ends, however, which forces certain characters into something of a worse position, and if she needs to she can keep the reflect out indefinitely by using it again.

The nature of this means that Palu can do things like reflect to stop zoning, poke with fair or something then retreat and put up the reflector again. It's still pretty slow so it's not like this is guaranteed to beat all zoning or something, but it's not an option that the GO's really have.

I will admit that he needs it less because arrows, but looking at it in a vacuum I don't see how it's the worst reflector.

I would never argue for the shield-poke being taken into account of making this a good move; it's a super niche, super low reward ability that I'm not even entirely sure why they added to it, and it absolutely is the worst air grab in this or any game.

For the record, you can also gimp Earthbound kids pretty easy with reflect if you have practice, not as well as GO's though. And neither does it as well as mirror shield did.

It is true that this is only relevant in a few matchups, bu it really does make those matchups, and Palu would be much worse off in them without it.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't understand why everyone is rating Palutena's reflector badly.

It's easily better than Pit/Fox's, as theirs only covers their body with nothing to protect them if they miss.

You throw out reflect in anticipation of a projectile, you can move while the move is still reflecting, and it has a windbox to protect you.
It's exactly the same to how Falco's reflector protects him somewhat even if you don't reflect something. You can throw it out proactively to catch your opponent throwing out a projectile before they actually throw it out. If you down-b as Fox or Pit it's easily reactable and you're just asking to be punished because there's nothing to protect you.

 

[Mario766]

Fox's is likely the worst when you look in what you'd need it for.

You're basically limiting yourself using Fox's reflector when you could be doing ANYTHING ELSE. The other reflectors do at least something for their character.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

To people arguing about custom Palutena and the players not knowing the MU, where would the players learn it?

They have one known Palutena player, and I don't think everybody in that venue could learn the MU in time, let alone the custom MU. You would need either an offline/online good custom palutena main (who has the customs) to learn that MU properly, and with nobody else having customs to even counteract Aero, its basically easy matches.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't care about this topic but there's no way Fox can have the worse reflector if he is able to stay in it as long as he wants. The reflectors that are a set time and cannot be held longer are at a disadvantage when it comes to reflecting.

 

[Antonykun]

Fox's is likely the worst when you look in what you'd need it for.

You're basically limiting yourself using Fox's reflector when you could be doing ANYTHING ELSE. The other reflectors do at least something for their character.

semi unrelated but did you know if you reflect with fox's reflector you can act as if you had a shield?
you can reflect and jump. I think that's pretty good

 

[Ffamran]

I don't understand why everyone is rating Palutena's reflector badly.

It's easily better than Pit/Fox's, as theirs only covers their body with nothing to protect them if they miss.

You throw out reflect in anticipation of a projectile, you can move while the move is still reflecting, and it has a windbox to protect you.
It's exactly the same to how Falco's reflector protects him somewhat even if you don't reflect something. You can throw it out proactively to catch your opponent throwing out a projectile before they actually throw it out. If you down-b as Fox or Pit it's easily reactable and you're just asking to be punished because there's nothing to protect you.

Reflect Barrier and Guardian Orbitars are the only "passive" momentum changer reflect moves in the game. With (Dr.) Mario's, you get hit, it does damage, and it's not that "long-ranged" as Pally's. With Pally's, you could throw up a Reflect Barrier, cause someone to be stalled and there you go. It's an option not many characters have and it can probably throw people off (and gimp some characters as I said before). The Pits can do this too, but they have to go through an end animation unlike Pally who just waves her hand and returns to idle.

The thing with Fox's Reflector and I think this was also in Melee and maybe with Wolf, was that if Fox manages a reflect, he gets to leave Reflector much sooner. That's a risk/reward thing where if Fox does reflect something, he can have a chance do something else other than sustain his Reflector, but if he doesn't, then he's going to have to deal with its recovery. Oh, and despite what the animation shows, Falco's Reflector can actually reflect "behind" him, but it's a frame 5?-only thing and pretty much useless for practical usage. I think (Dr.) Mario can do this too which once again, also pretty useless since it's frame perfect. Main draw of Falco's advancing Reflector is that you can use it for pokes kind of like Nash's Bullet Clear; both are fast, well-ranged moves that if they don't hit, their recovery (and lack of ability to cancel into anything in Nash's case) means they are risky if people expect or block it. At the same time, bumrush plus transcendent poke that trips equals fun for Falco.

Also, wasn't it brought up that breaking Guardian Orbitars is much safer faster than recovering normally? In a way, you could use it as a pseudo-shield.

Fox's is likely the worst when you look in what you'd need it for.

You're basically limiting yourself using Fox's reflector when you could be doing ANYTHING ELSE. The other reflectors do at least something for their character.

Then Wolf comes back with his I-frames on his Reflector like in Brawl. RIP Fox.

I just checked... Apparently, Fox's Reflector total frames was 39? in Melee and 20 in Brawl. One of the most memorable wacky thing about Brawl was that Fox's Reflector was really spammable in Brawl and it was kind of hilarious how fast you could spam it and stall in the air. In Smash 4, its total frames is 40... So, double Brawl's, but pretty much the same as Melee's. Now, for hit frames, it's 1 in Melee, 3 in Brawl, and 6 in Smash 4. Frankly, all of those are fairly fast, so nothing really bad. If say, Smash 4's was frame 10, then there would be something to write about, but it's not. Also, for reflect frames, without holding it, it's frame 4-21 in Melee, not sure about Brawl, and it reflects on the same hit frame in Smash 4 to an unknown last active frame. Major difference is that in Melee, you could jump out of it while in Brawl, it had ridiculously low recovery.

For Falco and Wolf... Melee Falco's is the same - gee, I wonder? -, Brawl Falco's was changed the most in terms of how it hits... In Brawl, it hit on frames 4-13 and had 51 total frames and in Smash 4, it's frame 5-14 and 50 total frames. Reflect-wise, same in Melee, apparently, 1-51 in Brawl, and unknown in Smash 4, but probably not frame 1 and probably frame 5 to something... Wolf's was frame 8-9, reflects starting on frame 10, and has 26 total frames. Like Melee, it's the only Reflector to reflect after its hit frame which is compensated by having I-frames which in Wolf's case, is 1-6 to Melee Fox and Falco's 1. Looking at it, maybe Smash 4's Fox should have lower recovery. So, total frames from 40 to 30? It's sustainable and the only sustained reflector in the game, but at the same time, it has one of the smallest reflect hitboxes in the game next to what? (Dr.) Mario's which has the range of his Ftilt or Falco's frame perfect body/back reflect? It's also on him unlike the others. At the same time, it's not really a big deal... Then you figure that Ness's PK Magnet has 29 total frames because of the Lucas, Roy, and Ryu patch. And if Wolf returns with 26 total frames for his Reflector (assuming he keeps it unchanged)... Yeah...

 

[Kaladin]

Lets talk about something a bit more interesting: who has the best absorption move? I'd say Villager, G&W, and Lucas are the contenders.

 

[FullMoon]

Are there even many absorption moves? Other than the three mentioned the only others I can think of are Ness and Mii Gunner.

 

[meleebrawler]

Villager's is basically an absorb/reflect hybrid.

 

[Kaladin]

Are there even many absorption moves? Other than the three mentioned the only others I can think of are Ness and Mii Gunner.

There's not that many. Lucas' heals obscene amounts and is silly in dubz. G&W basically says unless you want to lose the match, don't use your energy projectiles. Villager's invalidates Bowser Jr, ROB, etc, as well as making life hell for Wario, WFT, Samus, DDD, etc.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't care about this topic but there's no way Fox can have the worse reflector if he is able to stay in it as long as he wants. The reflectors that are a set time and cannot be held longer are at a disadvantage when it comes to reflecting.

What?
What advantage does Fox have being able to sit in his reflector for 200 frames if he wants?

You don't need to stay in your reflector longer than like 20 frames because your opponent can easily react and not throw out projectiles.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't care about this topic but there's no way Fox can have the worse reflector if he is able to stay in it as long as he wants. The reflectors that are a set time and cannot be held longer are at a disadvantage when it comes to reflecting.

Fox's reflector has no range though, and that's actually the most important part of a good reflector in most situations except against stuff like Link arrows or Fox lasers. Fox's reflector is actually crap for punishing most other forms of projectile zoning.

Palutena and Falco reflectors are really good for this reason, the ability to make a large variety of projectile zoning completely unsafe at a generous range.

 

[wpwood]

To people arguing about custom Palutena and the players not knowing the MU, where would the players learn it?

They have one known Palutena player, and I don't think everybody in that venue could learn the MU in time, let alone the custom MU. You would need either an offline/online good custom palutena main (who has the customs) to learn that MU properly, and with nobody else having customs to even counteract Aero, its basically easy matches.

So this still blows my mind that people don't know Palutena has all her customs unlocked at the beginning of the game (because she was meant to use them?). The problem isn't just that it was a custom Palutena, Aerolink probably could've won that with default Palutena because no one would even have match up knowledge in that either. The problem wasn't that it was customs being a unknown it was Palutena as a whole being unknown. If there was a Palutena main in Arkansas (I don't know any) then I would say for certain that person would have used / been using custom Palutena and players there would have found the weaknesses to target in that situation. It's just that Palutena is an underused character that if you're not ready for her, customs or not, she can run over you in the hands of a good player like Aerolink. Which is why and how we see people at shockwave doing better against Palutena (even when they still used customs) because she isn't broken; she just has more and better tools to make use of. Just like any tool her "new" tools have their weaknesses and can be beaten without the use of customs from other characters.

Customs are not needed to counter customs. ZeRo won evo without customs. Good fundamentals and character awareness can beat any "jank" custom. Not saying custom Palutena is jank though. I think she's a fair balanced character. If they wanted to really be prepared for custom Palutena all the players had to do were go to the Palutena boards go to some thread and ask for someone to explain how custom Palutena works, how to fight her, and if anyone would play them. I'm sure almost any Palutena main has some experience with her custom moves and would be willing to help with the match up.

WE LITERALLY HAVE AN ENTIRE WEBSITE DEDICATED TO SMASH BROS. If someone really wanted to learn a match up bad enough they could come here and ask for tips, ask for games, or read any of the many threads talking about that character. *Players are responsible for their own match up inexperience. Aerolink had been practicing custom Palutena in preparation for that tournament. It wasn't some random person that won. It was someone that put work into learning their character, what that character could do, and the options that character had in each match up.*

If anything, him winning should show why we should allow custom Palutena. For the few tournaments that allow custom Palutena everyone there would be inexperienced because no one plays Palutena in a custom environment because it hardly exist. Custom Palutena was put in the hands of a player with good fundamentals and won. It shows that we can allow a character to be more viable and learn the match up or we could say no we don't want to mess with that "jank" (Maybe not the best way to say it, I have changnesia "words are hard"). I despise dittos and I will avoid dittos at any cost. So I wouldn't even be fighting another custom Palutena with the character I am best at. I say that to try to lessen how bias some of you may take what I said (probably to no avail) and to say that I would have to learn that match up as well without my best character.

 

[Ffamran]

Are there even many absorption moves? Other than the three mentioned the only others I can think of are Ness and Mii Gunner.

Triple D, Kirby? - Kirby can eat projectiles like Triple D, right? -, Lucas, Mr. Game & Watch, Mii Gunner, Ness, Rosalina, Villager, and Wario as far as I'm aware of. So, 9 characters. Pretty sure they're all defaults too. For reflects, (Dr.) Mario, Falco, Fox, Lucas, Mega Man, Mewtwo, Ness, Palutena, the Pits, ROB, and Zelda. Only Mega Man's is a custom, only Zelda's is a neutral Special, and only Lucas and Ness's are Smashes while the others are Side or Down Specials. So, 13 characters and if you want to count Mr. G&W and Villager since they absorb and reflect, it's 15 characters. For "negaters", so voiding or "deflecting" projectiles, Falco, Greninja, Ike, the Links, Little Mac, Lucario, Lucina, Marth, Meta Knight, Palutena, the Pits, Peach, Shulk, Rosalina, and Roy all can negate projectiles like if Lucario Double Teams a projectile, it's just gone, or if Meta Knight uses Drill Rush, he just clanks through. That's 17.

 

[wpwood]

Speaking of Wairo and chomp; I was messing around in the training room and found that chomp can nullify a max aura aura sphere from Lucairo. So the only reason I can see that not being truly viable in a tournament is because of the slow start up of chomp compared to the speed of aura sphere. It would have to happen at a range for it to be of any use, but why not just power shield or jump over it in that case. I don't know about energy projectiles taking time off of wafft because I don't think he actually eats the projectile since he doesn't do the animation or gain health back. But I still find it interesting that chomp can just nullify max aura aura sphere. I mean the aura sphere is LITERALLY bigger than wairo with max aura.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, to get to see who has the worst reflector in the game, we will go to CC (Close Combat) usability, damage, knockback, gimmicks and usefulness with edge-guarding, and anything else I may add.

Spoiler

Reflector
5 Frames Start Up Lag
Frames 6-7 Hitbox Active
Frames 6-Infinite Reflection Active
If attack stops, there is 34 Frames of ending lag.
1.4x Damage of Reflected Attack
2% Hitbox Damage with Set Knockback
Ground Knockback makes opponent slide, Air Knockback sends opponent more vertical.
Knockback and damage, as well as edge-guarding capability is abysmal and negligible.
Covers his entire body.
Abysmal CC capabilities.

/ Cape and Super Sheet
12 Frames Start Up Lag for Hitbox, 6 for Reflection
Frames 12-14 Hitbox Active
Mario Reflects on Frames 6-20, but Doctor Mario Reflects on Frames 6-22
Ending lag of the attack is 16 for Mario, 14 for Doctor Mario.
1.5x Damage of Reflected Attack
7% Hitbox Damage for Mario, 7.8% for Doctor Mario
Both of them are capable of flipping opponents around.
Mario's is capable to aid his recovery, but Doc's doesn't.
Attacks can disrupt recovery attempts and can lead into or even edge-guard.
Knockback is none.
Both attacks cover in front of their bodies with some decent range.
Amazing CC capabilities.

/ Guardian Orbiters
9 Frames Start Up Lag
Reflection can last from Frame 9-30 Minimum to 9-90 Maximum
If attack stops, there are 34 Frames of ending lag.
1.5x Damage of Reflected Attack
Attack deals no damage nor knockback.
Pit and Dark Pit can get grabbed out of the attack.
The attack can break from physical attacks.
Pit and Dark Pit are only protected on the sides, not above, not below.
CC is not usable.

Pocket
8 Frames Start Up Lag
Grabs on Frame 8 and lasts between Frames 8-23
Villager is intangible between Frames 5-23
After frame 23, there are 28 Frames of Ending Lag
1.9x Damage of Pocketed and Reflected Attack
The attack itself deals no damage nor knockback.
Attack negates reflection damage of previously reflected projectiles.
Reflectors do not break at 50% due to projectile reflection damage negation.
Villager cannot be grabbed or hit during his intangibility frames.
Attack covers in front of him.
Damage and knockback are truly extraordinary and makes the attack amazing for edge-guarding and KO setups.
CC is amazing should the pocketed projectile not be an item (like Bomb or Vegetable)

Nayru's Love
13 Frames Start Up Lag for Hitbox, 5 for Reflection
Reflects between Frames 5-43
Hitbox active on Frames 13-24
Intangibility active on Frames 5-12
Ending Lag of the attack is 17 Frames
Final hit comes on Frame 28
1.5x Damage of Reflected Attack
Attack cover's Zelda's body.
Looping attacks deal 1-2% damage while the final attack deals 4% (back) or 5% (front)
Total damage is 4-8% on looping hits and 12-13% with the last hits added in, raw power.
BKB is 50 while KBG is 100 and the angle is 361 degrees.
Good for CC and edge-guarding, retreating and ability to stop momentum when falling.
Attack links into each other and has decent shield poking capability.
However, Zelda can still get hit and grabbed by disjointed attacks and truly only disjointed attacks and grabs. Physical attacks and grabs without disjoints could cause opponent to be caught in the attack.

Reflect Barrier
8 Frames Start Up Lag
Reflecting starts at Frame 10
Total FAF is 56
1.17x Damage of Reflected Attack
Hitbox deals 5% damage and 10 BKB with 70 KBG at a 25 degree angle
Barrier goes in front of Palutena and is over the size of her body.
Can lightly disrupt recoveries and moderately disrupts CC from other opponents, making them need to rush into Palutena.
Slower characters may not be able to get to Palutena.
Bad CC and edge-guarding usability.
(Someone please tell me the end lag of the attack and the frames of the hitbox)

Reflector
5 Frames Start Up Lag
Hitbox Lasts on Frames 5-14
Ending lag on hitbox is 37 frames.
Reflecting lasts until the bitter end of the attack.
1.2x Damage of Reflected Attack
Hitbox deals 5% damage and 35 BKB, as well as 30 KBG with 361 degrees of knockback.
Attack has the longest range of any reflectors.
Attack can trip opponents.
Good CC and yet abysmal edge-guarding usability unless it reflects a projectile and hits opponent.
Amazing at hitting opponents who use projectiles.
Amazing at rushing in and retreating against projectiles, good at rushing opponents.
Safe ability to get back up on the stage, though unsafe if opponent blocks.

Echo Reflector
3 Frames Start Up Lag
Hitbox Lasts on Frames 3-4
Can be held infinitely after starting up.
Ending lag on reflection is present, but unknown.
1.4x Damage of Reflected Attack
Hitbox deals 2% damage and 60 BKB as well as 30 KBG with 10/60 (ground/air) degrees of knockback.
Surrounds the Mii Gunner (but better than Fox's).
Acts similarly to Fox's Reflector otherwise, thus having the same negligibility for CC and edge-guarding.

Reversal Slash (The Rainbow Bling)
12 Frames Start Up Lag for hitbox, 6 frames for reflection
Hitbox Active on Frames 12-14.
Reflecting lasts between Frames 6-22
Ending lag is 16 Frames when you calculate the end of the reflecting hitbox.
1.5x Damage of Reflected Attack
Hitbox deals 6% damage and can flip opponents around like Mario's Cape.
Gives Sword Fighter some recovery in the air via lift.
Acts similarly to Mario's Cape attack, thus having good CC and edge-guarding capabilities and disrupts recoveries.

Arm Rotor (Mach Tornado 2.0)
16 Frames Start Up Lag
Hitbox and Reflecting Active between Frames 16-55 Minimum, 16-83 Maximum
Last Hit hits on Frames 62 or 90 (minimum to maximum)
Ending Lag is 44 Frames | FAF total is between 106 or 134 (minimum to maximum mashing)
1.5x Damage of Reflected Attack
Minimum Loop Damage is 3% (3 hits), Maximum is 6% (6 hits) with 20 BKB/WBKB and 60 KBG and 361/361/145/120 degrees of angle
Final Hit Damage is 3% damage with 40 BKB and 210 KBG with 45 degree angle
Traps opponents in the attack.
Gives ROB a little lift but is not advised for recovery.
Can allow ROB to move and lift his arms up and down to be able to reflect projectiles at various angles.
Good ground CC, but not good with edge-guarding or going against shields.
Covers both sides of ROB at various angles at a good range.

Confusion
12 Frames Start Up Lag on Hitbox
Hitbox Active between Frames 12-15
Possible Start Up and Active Frames of Reflecting is between Frames 6-38 | Keyword: POSSIBLE
Ending Lag is possibly unknown, but is possibly 13 Frames.
1.4x Damage of Reflected Attack
Damage is 1% x9 hits
Traps opponent in the attack and leads into other attacks.
Only Reflecting attack that also acts like a command grab.
Gives Mewtwo the best lift of the reflectors and aids his recovery since it doesn't stop his horizontal momentum.
Has deceptively long range and reflect hitboxes.
Great for CC but bad for edge-guarding.
Covers in front of Mewtwo and just a bit smaller than his size.

Please KuroganeHammer get Mewtwo's frame data fixed up; I might have things wrong about him with his reflection data, so you or Thinkaman could help me with the data. It'd help me very much and I'd appreciate it.

So now the true answer to the question is that the characters with the best and worst reflectors are:

Top Characters:
- There is no debate that Villager has the best reflector with Pocket. 1.9x damage with the ability to negate previous reflection before pulling the attack out is amazing in and of itself, but add that with amazing edge-guard capability or combo ending on an opponent with a projectile, intangibility and a long grab box makes Villager's undoubtedly the best of it all.

/ - Doc has more damage and has his last longer, Mario has recovery, but both still are very much so capable of the same thing with their reflectors. However, the one who benefits more is Mario because he not only disrupts recoveries with Cape, he has FLUDD that pushes opponents away and allows Mario to hit the opponent with Cape, which makes Mario's all the more dangerous. But Doc is better for his edge-guarding on opponents recovering low.

- Now while Zelda and Mewtwo have high damage on their reflectors, they are considerably shorter in range than Falco's reflector. Falco's reflector has the ability to trip an opponent, something that no other reflector could be capable of. Falco's long range also allows him to rush in and use the reflector; to add insult to injury, the reflector practically lasts until the end of the attack, making it all the more dangerous on opponents

Bottom Characters:
- His end lag is half a second, he has the most abysmal damage and knockback of reflecting attacks and yet even Mii Gunner beats him in start up. The reflector may cover his body and have an infinite holding, but that's just it. Anyone can really just outrange him, his reflector is useless in CC and against non-reflecting opponents and the attack is just borderline unusable.

/ - End lag that is literally the same as Fox's, but with wider range and yet no damage or knockback of any kind. Surrounding the sides of their bodies may be good, but reflecting is all you'll get from their attack because opponents could break the special move or just grab the Pits. Considering that their end lag is 34 frames, they're going to possibly get hit when the attack stops, only if they aren't grabbed first. The attack leaves them like sitting ducks basically, so it's advised only to use this in long range combat and never CC.

But who has the worst Reflector? The character who I believe has the worst reflecting attack is...


Only because Pit/Dark Pit have range and deal 1.5x damage (Fox deals 1.4x), as well as have the ability to block opponents' attacks and push opponents away makes the attack better than Fox's own reflector. Fox's Reflector is nowhere near as good as Pit/Dark Pit's for these reasons and the fact that if the Pits actually break an opponent's shield near the ledge, they can push the opponent off the stage to their deaths due to the ability to push opponents away from this.

And despite the Pits only being protected in the sides, their reflector, as I said before, can still block opponents attacks from the sides, whereas Fox can be hit in all angles. Fox has no mobility using his Reflector while the Pits retain their momentum.

So in the end, Fox does have the worst reflector all due in part of all of its flaws.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ROB's reflector is the worst in the game tho. Really slow and half the time it doesn't reflect things anyway.

By comparison Fox's reflector is probably one of the better ones tbh.

And Pits' reflectors have other utility other than actually reflecting things.

I think if I was to rank them it would probably be more like:

Good:
Villager (Not really a reflector but w/e)
Falco
Marios'
Mewtwo
Zelda

Average:
Pits'
Gunner
Fox
Palutena (100% uptime is this things saving grace)
Lucas (Faster than Ness's)
Ness (Stronger than Lucas's)

Unsuable:
Swordspider
ROB

 

[Browny]

Swordspider.

Also Falcos reflector has a notable weakness in that he cant use it to cover his landings. If he is landing and a high power projectile is coming his way and he uses reflector its just going to shoot over it and he takes the hit. Same with Palutena.

I think that's enough to send him down a rank.

 

[LancerStaff]

Reflect Barrier and Guardian Orbitars are the only "passive" momentum changer reflect moves in the game. With (Dr.) Mario's, you get hit, it does damage, and it's not that "long-ranged" as Pally's. With Pally's, you could throw up a Reflect Barrier, cause someone to be stalled and there you go. It's an option not many characters have and it can probably throw people off (and gimp some characters as I said before). The Pits can do this too, but they have to go through an end animation unlike Pally who just waves her hand and returns to idle.

Also, wasn't it brought up that breaking Guardian Orbitars is much safer faster than recovering normally? In a way, you could use it as a pseudo-shield.

Hm, GOs are much stronger though. Dunno about RB, but each side of the GOs has two windboxes overlapping each other. Guess it's for that "solid" feel, but as a result it's doubly effected by rage. Considering Pit's durability this can come into play pretty powerfully. Some characters can have a really hard time grabbing him for instance, first one that comes to mind is Mac. Anything to wack up Ryu's recovery more I'll take, heheh.

Problem with letting 'em break is that it takes a but to do so. 20% maybe, might be effected by time? Well, that's another thing to add to my list of things to lab... But sadly it cannot be broken by Pit himself. So it either takes a dummy or like a full Blazer to break. If they're broken though I think the opponent goes into hitlag but Pit doesn't, little foggy ATM, but either way letting them break is ridiculously safe.

IDK, sometimes I feel it's overrated, others I feel they're underutilized. Like, sometimes I'll pull 'em out on a whim and end up beating their ledge getup and forcing a ledge grab for instance, which I can then f6 Dsmash. Or "gimping" characters right off the stage with 'em like Roy, Ness and I think I did with Bowser at one point. GO's are clearly a utility move, and that utility is cheesy *** kills.

 

[G. Stache]

Triple D, Kirby? - Kirby can eat projectiles like Triple D, right? -.

Little nitpick, but no. Kirby can only eat explosives (unless they changed this in a recent patch), in which he suffers an eternity of lag and iirc 5%. Also, it should be noted that DDD eating projectiles isn't generally a good idea, since it's too easy to punish. At least against characters with decent ground mobility. For instance, DDD eating Luigi's fireball will treat him to an up b or a d throw. Also, I don't think DDD can eat things like Fox's/Falco's blaster, or Sheiks needles.