• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
4,595
Location
Germany
Palutena isn't as bad as people make it seem.
Bair alone combined with her standard mobility is hilarious enough. You can beat any move in the game with good timing, spacing and a bit prediction. The character basically comsists of jumping and baiting a lot but this is really strong, because of Bair.
You can mix it up with reflect when the opponent is conditioned to try dashing in to powershield bair because reflects hitbox goes through shields. Her grab reward is good. You get a 50:50 if you grab close to the ledge to either upair or airdodge read -> dair what takes the Stock.

Her ground game consists mainly of jab which has good range and some combo and mix-up potential.

Dash Attack is amazing. You need only 1 frame to dash MysteriousSilver MysteriousSilver . You can punish a lot of well-spaced moves or any landing because you're invincible.

I don't say Palutena is a good character. But I've got the feeling most people are talking bad about Palutena without knowing how she is actually played. I wouldn't say she is bottom5 because she is capable of doing really good things and an invincible bair is such a potent move. But she is probably no higher than bottom of mid tier.
 

Zage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
397
Location
Maryland
Do the Uairs have to do a certain amount of damage to beat hydrant?
Any non-transcendent or projectile hitbox beats it. Moves that do over 13% also outright knock it out of the air.
 
Last edited:

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Palutena isn't too bad. But again this goes back to, SOMEONE has to be bottom 5.

Bair beats a lot of stuff, but it's not going to kill you at obscene percents and it doesn't combo into or from anything. It can't be SHFF'd without landing lag so there's a large punish window if your character has a good dashgrab.

Palutena has the worst set of specials in the default metagame, the only other contender is Jigglypuff and Pound/Rest are probably better than all 4 of Pally's specials combined. Warp is a really good move but limited in its use, the others are all kinda bad versions of other moves. Except Autoreticle which is just straight bad.

Her normals barely hang together. Bad frame data on almost everything, fastest move f8, no combos from throw if you DI away and her Dthrow animation is slow and easy to react to.

Again it's not that Pally is awful. She has strengths. But I'd be hard pressed to think of 5 characters she's better than. At this point I'm not even convinced she's better than Zelda, who's FW/lightning kick cheese scares me a lot more than anything Pally can do.
 

Dinoman96

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
3,417
One last thing about this: I don't think Palutena's customs really "fix" a lot her issues as much as they atleast make her issues make sense.

With moves like Super Speed and Lightweight on, Palutena gains crazy mobility very similar to Sonic. What makes fighting Sonic feel like pulling teeth out is all the mobility he has and the fact that nearly all of his attacks are completely unpunishable. Custom Palutena is similar to that, it's just that she can't throw out attacks and easily get away with it. If she messes up and whiffs a dash attack or tilt, it allows the opponent to have some sort of chance to keep up with her.
 
Last edited:

wpwood

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
187
I understand how people can see Palutena as a low tier, as a mid tier, as bottom 5, or even the worst character in the game. I myself view her as top low tier character or bottom mid tier, but that is without lightweight. I think the negatives out number the positives no matter how good the positives are (not considering lightweight). With lightweight I think she is at least top mid or the very bottom of top tier. What I don't understand is why some of you think lightweight won't actually help her or increase her viability enough. You may not, but that is the feel I am getting from some of these post. You say lightweight will only mask her weaknesses, but that is what the move does. I don't fully understand what some of you are trying to say about lightweight not helping Palutena. Care to explain in greater detail? Although I think we've just about covered every reason why it is a positive and negative and to me it seems the positives out weigh the negatives in terms of lightweight. Also, since this is where the entire conversation happened, should we allow Palutena, at the very least, access to lightweight only (to make her more viable; not broken by any means)?
 
Last edited:

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
I think characters SHOULD have weaknesses, because it creates variety. The issue is that in Smash not all weaknesses are created equal, and that making adjustments, even if we're solely talking 1v1, comes with a host of considerations.

Whether it's through buffs to existing moves or changes to Lightweight or whatever, I think Palutena need not necessarily be a "complete" character, but one that's at least able to effectively work around her weaknesses. What I might actually target would be improving block stun on ftilt, reduced recovery on key aerials (doing back air off stage means you're not recovering for a while), and giving greater range on the unblockable portion of Reflect. Palutena feels like she should be checkmating you into one of her powerful gimmicks.
 

NegaNixx

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
223
Location
Toronto
I don't understand how people see custom Palu as a bad (Read: Non-High Tier) character. It's more than just lightweight, though that's what makes her a threat and pushes her above the border in viability, it's Lightweight and SuperSpeed along with whichever Up Special you choose. One gives her defensive mobility (Warp) one gives her an approach option even in Lightweight cool down (Jump Glide) and one gives her a powerful OOS option as well as a Hitbox below her, because D-Air is sort of garbage (The third one Rocket Jump?) Explosive flame and auto reticle are interchangeable and even SuperSpeed and reflect to some (minimal) extent.

The customs don't fix all of her problems at once but they give her what she needs in terms of Match Up.

If you're stuck on only seeing one set as the best you inherently put palutena at a disadvantage. People say Mewtwo's biggest strength is his versatility and it's the same for Palu in customs. She should never lose a match up at the CSS.

Without Customs she just sort of... Flyswats opponents away and evades with her good mobility until she can get a read at death percents. It's nowhere near as efficient or as effective without the added speed, mobility and mixup potential of her other specials,
 
Last edited:

GeneralLedge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
439
I fought a Palu the other night on FG, and she kicked my face in pretty effortlessly.

The gist of what I picked up is to play the character very conservatively and defensively. Jab-confirm into just about everything. Dthrow into nair into uair works even without lightweight (and/or I don't know how to DI palu's nair. Lack of MU experience and all that (since nobody plays Palu, usually)).

Maybe I'm really bad at video game, but from what I can surmise from the ass-whooping I received, you really don't need side or down B at all. I mean, given the option sure Palu you can have those customs, but if you think you need them you're pretty pessimistic about your character's strengths (ie. defense).

Not that I mind one way or the other, but even with customs on 1111 Palu is still viable.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
All of Palutena's tilts cannot rebound/have trample/whatever you want to call it. It looks like they were balanced with that property in mind, but perhaps they overcompensated.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
Technically Dash Attack is faster at 6 frames (armor means it acts like frame 3.5 when beating out other moves, it loses on frame 3 and wins on frame 4+) but that's hella punishable and... I think there's some kind of startup on Dash that adds to the startup if you want to do it from standing? Right? But I can't find data on that at the moment for some reason.
I think you're talking about how dashing and then hitting A too soon will give you a smash attack. You can avoid this by hitting Cstick down, which lets you instantly perform dash attacks after dashing.

Palutena has the worst set of specials in the default metagame, the only other contender is Jigglypuff and Pound/Rest are probably better than all 4 of Pally's specials combined. Warp is a really good move but limited in its use, the others are all kinda bad versions of other moves. Except Autoreticle which is just straight bad.
I'd trade Kirby's specials in a heartbeat. I even use Autoreticle against her in that matchup... and she's a fast runner with a reflector. The move isn't that bad. Warp isn't terribly threatening, but it's not bad. Reflect is a reliable reflector, and as mentioned earlier, is ok to use occasionally to mess with peoples' spacing. Counter... I personally think Counter moves are underrated overall, even the "bad" ones like Greninja's and Palutena's. Obviously you shouldn't use them when you're in death percents, but they're really not that hard to use effectively, especially when most of the good characters are known for constantly throwing out "safe" attacks. Not only can it be a surprise KO option (though I guess Palutena's is undertuned in this regard) but if your opponent knows you're willing to use this move, they're forced to respect it and change their gameplan. It's kind of like Rest in this regard. Maybe you actually never plan on using Rest, but the threat of it is enough to make your opponent play differently.

You want to talk about worst sets of specials for 1v1, my vote still goes to Zelda or Kirby. Phantom and Din's should never hit the opponent in 1v1, but at least it's possible to be perfectly safe while using them. Her other specials are pretty good, with Nayru's being perfectly functional as a reflector, and usable at punishing dodges/rolls. Farore's is a bit high skill in its usage, but it can give very high rewards, with hit confirms leading to early kills, and platform canceling increasing her poor mobility.
Kirby has Hammer and Stone, which are almost never usable in 1v1 play. Inhale has gotten better, but it's still high risk. For reference, it's about the same level of punishability as ZSS' grab, with lower reward. He can still lose powers by RNG, including from a single hit. Then there's Final Cutter, which is a bottom 5 recovery move and a bottom 5 projectile at the same time! It's also a punishable-on-hit disjointed attack, due to the techability of the meteor portion.
 

Wintropy

Peace and love and all that jazzmatazz~! <3
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
10,032
Location
Here, there, who knows?
NNID
Winterwhite
3DS FC
1461-6253-6301
Palutena's gameplan is simple:

Jab -> grab -> d-throw -> read DI -> followup.

Throw in a few extra pokes (dash attack, f-air and b-air) and decent ground mobility, and hey presto, it's Palutena! To be fair, it's not a bad gameplan. It isn't great, but it's serviceable, and it works. Yet I can't in all good faith say it's sustainable in high and top-level play.

She is consistent, that much is certain. None of her moves are dysfunctional or broken in the traditional sense; everything does what it's supposed to do (even if some of their effects are fundamentally mediocre), and you can get by without using any of her specials if you're savvy.* She doesn't have wonky hitboxes or moves that just don't work the way they're designed to. If her moves were faster or hit harder or had better combo potential, she'd probably be a great character. But most of her kit is either too slow, too weak or doesn't combo well, so while her moves do what they're intended to do, they're just not very good. She doesn't even have the cheese factor to tip her over the edge into viability.

Still, she has a gameplan, and it's not that difficult to pull off. A good Palutena will play ultra-defensively and poke you to death if she gets half a chance. The core of her gameplay is fishing for the grab, however she can, and following you up until you hit the blastzone. Palutena's viability is totally dependent on how well she can play the defensive game, stay safe, poke back and get the grab followups. Faster characters that don't stand still and give her a chance to hit them, aggressive characters that shut down her defenses, zoner characters that can pressure her right back and characters that just can escape her d-throw shenanigans with ease - these are the characters that Palutena hates. Unfortunately, this happens to make up most of the best characters in the roster. Palutena doesn't have much options when she's faced with a character that doesn't respect what she can do and can beat out her very narrow spread of viable options.

Lightweight does nothing to mitigate some of her biggest weaknesses: her smashes still need the hardest of reads to be in any way practical, her tilts still don't have the frame data or range to be safe, she still has to fish for the grab and she still has to contend with the cooldown phase that just scuppers whatever options she has in the neutral game. What it does do is make her advantage dramatically better and, to some extent, give her better footsies options. She doesn't really need extra mobility or recovery potential, she's pretty well off in that sense, but it's a happy side-effect and not something I will stick my nose up at if it's offered to me. What she benefits from is the ability to chase opponents for more dynamic and efficient grab followups, and in some weird and wonderful cases, get the tasty 40% kill off the upper blastzone. Getting the grab is a tiny bit easier, in that she's faster and can better pressure and chase the opponent in footsies to get into a good position for the grab confirm, or she can just keep out of the way of whatever the opponent wants to throw at her in footsies. It makes her better at what she does best, and that's pretty great: she goes from a character with a weak neutral game and mediocre advantage to a character with a mediocre neutral and good advantage.

Yet it's still not enough to make her viable. She will still have her incredibly so-so specials that only function well in certain very specific matchups; she will still struggle in neutral to get the grab; she will still have difficulty resetting to neutral; she will still want for the abundance of quick, safe options that the best characters have. Her other customs, in tandem with Lightweight, make this magnificent fantasy something of a fun reality: Explosive Flame is a better and safer projectile than Autoreticle in just about every way, Super Speed scoffs at the very concept of footsies and opens up her pressure game and options for grab confirms and Jump Glide opens up even more options in neutral thanks to Peach-esque aerial approaches and its speed and versatility in its movement options helps her get out of disadvantage and edeguard difficulties that she'd otherwise struggle with. Custom Palutena is, in my humble opinion, pretty good. Other characters would be overjoyed to have the kind of custom options she does.

Even so, you can't just cherry-pick one and say that it will fix her. It won't. Her gameplan does stuff and it does it well, but it doesn't do it well enough to threaten the stronger, faster, safer, trickier characters. You can make it better and that will, by extension, make her a better character, but it won't fix what makes her fundamentally weak. Changing her entire special set might do that, or even just make her so good at what she does that her weaknesses don't matter that much, but one custom will not make her an ultra-viable threat. It will make her better, but I don't think better is enough. She needs more than that, and for better or worse, we just have to make do with what we have and hope we can make it good enough.

* If anything, her specials just embellish what she has in very niche contexts: Autoreticle is a good mid-range poke to challenge fatties, Reflect is good for projectile-heavy matchups, Warp can ledge-cancel in stages with platforms and Counter is, well, a counter, but it's theoretically better than having an empty space for her down-b. I won't for an iota of a second say that they're universally good specials, because they're not. But they do have their uses, however context-sensitive they may be.
 
Last edited:

MysteriousSilver

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
774
Location
Lincoln, NE
You get a 50:50 if you grab close to the ledge to either upair or airdodge read -> dair what takes the Stock.
Not 100% sure it's always true, but a lot of the time just DIing out and jumping away beats both of those options, though you do have them without a double jump offstage in that situation.

EDIT: It's probably also worth mentioning that Dair has a tiny hitbox that is only active for one frame; if you want to hit them between two airdodges your timing has to be on point.

fastest move f8, no combos from throw if you DI away and her Dthrow animation is slow and easy to react to.
Fastest move is f7 on dash attack (Thanks, Yikarur Yikarur !), works like f4.5 when challenging other moves, though again that's not the same as having a f4.5 jab. Dthrow to Fair is guaranteed until ~70% with plenty of time to react to DI and Nair or more damage if they DI in to try to make it harder to Fair. Dthrow to Bair is also guaranteed at some percents.

Also I don't think AR is really that bad. Can't use it like a traditional projectile, but at max range it has a niche since it does 9%, can't be powershielded, can't be reflected effectively, beats out most other projectiles and can catch rolls/spotdodges for a little percent.

(and/or I don't know how to DI palu's nair. Lack of MU experience and all that (since nobody plays Palu, usually)).
DI away and she can't Nair. I don't mean to sound rude, but you losing to some dude on FG is not really evidence towards her viability; that's not exactly a competitive environment.

All of Palutena's tilts cannot rebound/have trample/whatever you want to call it. It looks like they were balanced with that property in mind, but perhaps they overcompensated.
I'd rather Ftilt did rebound, frankly, because it lasts so damn long.

I'd really rather that Palutena did absolutely nothing at all when I accidentally hit Ftilt.
 
Last edited:

Gunla

wow, gaming!
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,069
Location
Iowa
Just gonna say in advance that while the Direct is hype and all, discussion of it really doesn't belong here unless a character/competitively viable stage is announced.

(Let's be real here, we're probably getting something, so get excited!)

On the subject of Palutena, I think that lacking the entire 23X2 set (Explosive Flame, Super Speed, 1st or 2nd Up Special and Lightweight) does inhibit her quite a bit and leaves her in the Bottom 10. Not to say that Bottom 10 isn't still usable, but as bc1910 pointed out, someone's gotta be there. But in the right hands, like many characters (AeroLink) the character can be good, or at the least, decent. She still has a decent movepool in certain situations, she still has her DThrow, decent mobility and her defensive play.

But I'm no Palutena player. Take it from the ones who actually use her.
 

Kirby Dragons

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
5,257
Location
Another Dimension
I play a lot of Kirby and Zelda, and I can actually get some good use out of their specials, mainly to punish or edgeguard. Both have specials that are actually usable, unlike those of another character I play: Mega Man. Metal Blade, Crash Bomber are pretty trash. None of them have much knockback. Metal Blade and Crash Bomber can also be used against me. Rush Coil is really the only special that benefits me and that I actually use, it's an easy conversion that makes Mega Man hard to hit. I think that his normal attacks are so much better than his special moves are.
 

Kaladin

Stormblessed
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
1,167
Location
Earth
NNID
Toobu_me
Metal Blade, Crash Bomber are pretty trash
...Please stop.

I am a very sarcastic person. It's very difficult not to ridicule you right now, honestly.

...Just, go watch some of ScAtt's sets at Tipped Off and get back to me.
 

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Megas specials are excellent, metal blade even offers a kill confirm. (Diagonal downwards mb confirms into utilt). And its the nice kind of kill confirm, low risk, simple, effective.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Metal Blade, Crash Bomber are pretty trash. None of them have much knockback. Metal Blade and Crash Bomber can also be used against me. Rush Coil is really the only special that benefits me and that I actually use, it's an easy conversion that makes Mega Man hard to hit. I think that his normal attacks are so much better than his special moves are.
You do realize that outside of charged projectiles like Link's Hero's Bow, Samus's Charge Shot, Zelda's Phantom Slash, or Mewtwo's Shadow Ball that none of them kill (at reasonable percents or at all)? Outside of Sheik's Needles, Ryu's Shakunetsu?, Mega Man's Crash Bomber and certain customs (at high percents), few projectiles do a lot of knockback. This is really common in other fighting games too which explains why in some fighting games you can combo from and to projectiles. If they had a ton of knockback they could be broken or useless. Imagine Ryu's Hadouken did a crapton of knockback in Street Fighter. Welp, goodbye combos and the ability to stun and approach. He'd end up pushing people too far to do much. The point of projectiles is to do damage from afar. Knockback is usually secondary unless you're using projectiles that are designed to kill.
 
Last edited:

meleebrawler

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
8,158
Location
Canada, Quebec
NNID
meleebrawler
3DS FC
2535-3888-1548
You do realize that outside of charged projectiles like Link's Hero's Bow, Samus's Charge Shot, Zelda's Phantom Slash, or Mewtwo's Shadow Ball that none of them kill (at reasonable percents or at all)? Outside of Sheik's Needles, Ryu's Shakunetsu?, Mega Man's Crash Bomber and certain customs (at high percents), few projectiles do a lot of knockback. This is really common in other fighting games too which explains why in some fighting games you can combo from and to projectiles. If they had a ton of knockback they could be broken or useless. Imagine Ryu's Hadouken did a crapton of knockback in Street Fighter. Welp, goodbye combos and the ability to stun and approach. He'd end up pushing people too far to do much. The point of projectiles is to do damage from afar. Knockback is usually secondary unless you're using projectiles that are designed to kill.
Well, unless you're Sagat, who's high knockback EX Tiger Shots scream "let's see you TRY to get in".
 

TTTTTsd

Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,999
Location
Canada, where it's really cold
NNID
InverseTangent
Well, unless you're Sagat, who's high knockback EX Tiger Shots scream "let's see you TRY to get in".
Or, really, any zoner in a fighting game. In fact projectiles knocking down is usually 100% a good thing. See Ryu's Shakunetsu hadouken, etc. if it knocked them fullscreen it'd be even better especially if it was an old game!

Semantics though.
 

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
It's natural for a lot of people, including myself, to first use Mega Man and think his projectiles are trash. They come out very slowly, don't do much damage, and you often can't just stand on the other side of the screen and pelt the opponent, which is what a lot of people assumed you could do with Mega Man (it's also why it's the first thing a lot of new Fox players on FG do!). It's only after putting in some time and understanding Mega Man as a dedicated mid-range threat (and the importance of lemons) that the utility of those attacks becomes more apparent.
 

Spinosaurus

Treasure Hunter
Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
3,655
NNID
WarioLand
Imagine Ryu's Hadouken did a crapton of knockback in Street Fighter. Welp, goodbye combos and the ability to stun and approach. He'd end up pushing people too far to do much. The point of projectiles is to do damage from afar. Knockback is usually secondary unless you're using projectiles that are designed to kill.
That's not really true. The point of projectiles in Street Fighter/traditional fighting games for the most part is space control and gaining complete control of the pace of the match. Ryu's a strong zoner and his Hadoken are more for conditioning your opponents into making mistakes rather than actually dealing damage. Projectiles aren't used for continuing combos outside of like FADCs in SFIV or if they have really low cooldown. (Hi Guile)

Projectiles causing knockdown is reeally good and it's why they're usually attributed to the EX versions.

Apologies for steering off topic.
 
Last edited:

LiteralGrill

Smokin' Hot~
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
5,976
Location
Wisconsin
Let me just mention it is likely we will see IceNinja, Canada's best Palutena, at Capital City Smash this weekend along the likes of Ally, Holy, SuperGirlKels, and a ton of other greats. This would be a good opportunity to see Palutena in high level customs off play in the current patch.
 
Last edited:

Splash Damage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
344
Location
New England
NNID
Grab_N_Go
From what I've seen, Megaman appears to be best as a mid-range "strategist" who can safely poke with his more-than-plentiful projectiles at mid range when backed by good stage control(Or even to get that good stage control), but also has acceptable normals as well to aggress if need/desire calls for it, plus a super fast grab. He seems to be in the same strange room as Sheik where his biggest weakness(pr at least one of the biggest) is trouble killing, but also somehow moves/combos that kill at 80%(Shiek has deep offstage Bouncing Fish, up smash, &Smashville f-air strings where MM has Up Air+Up B ladders and potentially up tilt).
 
Last edited:

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
I think you're talking about how dashing and then hitting A too soon will give you a smash attack. You can avoid this by hitting Cstick down, which lets you instantly perform dash attacks after dashing.


I'd trade Kirby's specials in a heartbeat. I even use Autoreticle against her in that matchup... and she's a fast runner with a reflector. The move isn't that bad. Warp isn't terribly threatening, but it's not bad. Reflect is a reliable reflector, and as mentioned earlier, is ok to use occasionally to mess with peoples' spacing. Counter... I personally think Counter moves are underrated overall, even the "bad" ones like Greninja's and Palutena's. Obviously you shouldn't use them when you're in death percents, but they're really not that hard to use effectively, especially when most of the good characters are known for constantly throwing out "safe" attacks. Not only can it be a surprise KO option (though I guess Palutena's is undertuned in this regard) but if your opponent knows you're willing to use this move, they're forced to respect it and change their gameplan. It's kind of like Rest in this regard. Maybe you actually never plan on using Rest, but the threat of it is enough to make your opponent play differently.

You want to talk about worst sets of specials for 1v1, my vote still goes to Zelda or Kirby. Phantom and Din's should never hit the opponent in 1v1, but at least it's possible to be perfectly safe while using them. Her other specials are pretty good, with Nayru's being perfectly functional as a reflector, and usable at punishing dodges/rolls. Farore's is a bit high skill in its usage, but it can give very high rewards, with hit confirms leading to early kills, and platform canceling increasing her poor mobility.
Kirby has Hammer and Stone, which are almost never usable in 1v1 play. Inhale has gotten better, but it's still high risk. For reference, it's about the same level of punishability as ZSS' grab, with lower reward. He can still lose powers by RNG, including from a single hit. Then there's Final Cutter, which is a bottom 5 recovery move and a bottom 5 projectile at the same time! It's also a punishable-on-hit disjointed attack, due to the techability of the meteor portion.
Overall it's close, but I think those two still edge out Palutena on specials. Palutena's only good special is Warp. Warp is VERY good at what it does i.e., recovering and getting out of disadvantage, but that's all it can do. It's not a versatile special at all and poses no offensive threat whatsoever. The ledge cancel stuff on certain stages is really cool at least. Like I said, it's good at what it does, but it's not exactly scary.

Reflect is very underwhelming for a reflector. Active on f8, the FAF afterward isn't until f56 and it only reflects at 1.17x power. The windbox stuff is okay but I do think it's the worst reflector in the game as far as dedicated reflectors go (stuff like Ness' Fsmash is obviously worse but reflecting projectiles isn't its main purpose).

Counter is just... crap, really. I honestly can't think of a better word to describe it. It's easily the worst counter in the game, because it's so laggy and only has around 20 active frames. Counters might be a little underrated in general, but that doesn't really change this one being the worst and/or a bad move. The counterattack is also not as strong as most other counters, to the best of my knowledge. Taking your example, with Rest, you have to be on your toes all the time because you could die pretty much as soon as you hit 50%. I don't think Counter demands respect at all, I mean you don't want to hit it with a smash attack at high percent but that's about it. Also Jiggs has better baits and setups for Rest, any counter requires your opponent to attack you.

Autoreticle is also really bad. A 67f projectile that isn't active until f30 and doesn't kill or combo. 9% damage is good, but there's quite a lot of risk involved using it. At the range it's safe to use, I don't see it hitting anyone, because they will have over half a second to react to it.

I'd say Palutena has one good special, one underwhelming special and two crappy ones. I won't go into as much detail on Kirby or Zelda's specials because this post is pretty long, but I'd say Kirby has one good/great special (inhale), two that are somewhere between underwhelming and crappy (FC and Stone) and one that's crappy (hammer). Overall I think inhale and the niche uses of FC and Stone are good enough put Kirby's set above Pally's. Zelda has two great specials (FW and Nayru's) one of which is a legitimately terrifying kill move, and two crappy ones, but again I think the advantages of her good specials far outweigh Palutena's overall kit.
 
Last edited:

Megamang

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,791
Id say mega is above average at killing. Offstage bair is huge, disjointed, fast, and very landable due to megas mobility in the air. Dair is landable and, more importantly, allows you to stay on stage and then combat their ledge getups. Usmash is easy to land for moves of its type, fsmash is hilariously punishable but can set up well.

He just.... doesnt have to go anywhere near you until he starts looking for kills, so it seems like he struggles. But even then, an aerial mega diagonally above you threatens kills well. If you get MB'd, youll get dragon punched to death. He can land and grab... or just land and utilt if you try to counter the landing grab... of course, to avoid that you expose yourself to the original MB setups... mega has options, hes good. He aint shiek, but no one is.


Edit: pallys reflector isnt just **** frame data for no reason... its an advancing wall of reflect, which is really great and its definitely not the worst reflector. It makes her an interesting meta pick against villager, or anyone camping you hardcore.
 
Last edited:

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Who has a worse reflector? There could legitimately be someone I'm forgetting but off the top of my head, Fox, Falco, Zelda, the Marios and the Pits all have better reflectors. The Pits' MIGHT be worse. As a pure reflector it probably is; it's also laggy and has fewer active frames, and reflecting on both sides barely matters in 1v1. However its pushing properties on activation are useful. It does allow for some creative edgeguards and can function as an anti-air or anti close-range tool.
 
Last edited:

Splash Damage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
344
Location
New England
NNID
Grab_N_Go
…but I'd say Kirby has one good/great special (inhale), two that are somewhere between underwhelming and crappy (FC and Stone) and one that's crappy (hammer).
I see Kirby's hammer as a better Straight Lunge(Mac's nooch). Both are charge up melee attacks that are pitifully bad in every situation save for shield breaks and 2v1s. With how early they kill(Hammer flip @30% center stage, Straight Lunge @45% center stage)+their damage output, they're likely the best shield break punishes in the game, HF being a bit above thanks to slightly higher damage&higher kill power(And the ability to move the opponent while charging at the cost of self-inflicted damage). That said, beyond cute down B stuff, I'm not certain if kirby has any reliable way to solidly break a shield, but that's a different discussion.
Id say mega is above average at killing. Offstage bair is huge, disjointed, fast, and very landable due to megas mobility in the air. Dair is landable and, more importantly, allows you to stay on stage and then combat their ledge getups. Usmash is easy to land for moves of its type, fsmash is hilariously punishable but can set up well.

He just.... doesnt have to go anywhere near you until he starts looking for kills, so it seems like he struggles. But even then, an aerial mega diagonally above you threatens kills well. If you get MB'd, youll get dragon punched to death. He can land and grab... or just land and utilt if you try to counter the landing grab... of course, to avoid that you expose yourself to the original MB setups... mega has options, hes good. He aint shiek, but no one is.
That's a fair assessment, I actually forgot about the MB>Up Tilt stuff until now.
 
Last edited:

Kaladin

Stormblessed
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
1,167
Location
Earth
NNID
Toobu_me
Who has a worse reflector? There could legitimately be someone I'm forgetting but off the top of my head, Fox, Falco, Zelda, the Marios and the Pits all have better reflectors. The Pits' MIGHT be worse. As a pure reflector it probably is; it's also laggy and has fewer active frames, and reflecting on both sides barely matters in 1v1. However its pushing properties on activation are useful. It does allow for some creative edgeguards and can function as an anti-air or anti close-range tool.
ROB has the worst reflector in the game. Gg.
 

GeneralLedge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
439
Random idea with Palu's reflector:

When someone is recovering at a diagonal or horizontal towards the ledge, try running off the ledge and throwing out a reflect in front of it.

What happens next?
 

Nu~

Smash Dreamer
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
U.S., Maryland (Eastern Time, UTC - 5hrs)
NNID
EquinoXYZ
Megamang Megamang
MB -> utilt is not a reliable kill confirm. Metal blades move slowly and the startup is 16 frames.

I don't see how anyone is getting killed by that consistently.

The best method mega man has to seal kills is to edgeguard with bair. Utilt only works off of a hard read or massive spacing mistake on shield (even harder to land after the shield stun patch). Usmash has all the endlag in the world with only average kill power, dair is only okay against slow recoveries, and fsmash doesn't setup with anything unless your opponent sits in shield when they have a crash bomb attached.
 
Last edited:

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
Who has a worse reflector? There could legitimately be someone I'm forgetting but off the top of my head, Fox, Falco, Zelda, the Marios and the Pits all have better reflectors. The Pits' MIGHT be worse. As a pure reflector it probably is; it's also laggy and has fewer active frames, and reflecting on both sides barely matters in 1v1. However its pushing properties on activation are useful. It does allow for some creative edgeguards and can function as an anti-air or anti close-range tool.
Reflect Barrier and Guardian Orbitars are about equal I'd say. GO's windbox trickery isn't all that effective most of the time... Only saving grace is that particular recoveries are vulnerable to it, like Ryu or Ness. Using it for landing (or rather escaping for the ledge) is about as reliable as a counter, only without the damage/position reward.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
That's not really true. The point of projectiles in Street Fighter/traditional fighting games for the most part is space control and gaining complete control of the pace of the match. Ryu's a strong zoner and his Hadoken are more for conditioning your opponents into making mistakes rather than actually dealing damage. Projectiles aren't used for continuing combos outside of like FADCs in SFIV or if they have really low cooldown. (Hi Guile)

Projectiles causing knockdown is reeally good and it's why they're usually attributed to the EX versions.

Apologies for steering off topic.
Projectiles can chip away and that's damage. The threat of being damaged and the threat of making a poor approach is what projectiles do. When a sniper has control of a field, one wrong move and you're dead. There's an extreme fear that he'll find you and POP! there goes your skull.

When I was referring to knockback, I was talking about if say, Ryu's Hadouken send you flying towards the other side of the screen, but still kept its normal damage and hit stun. Great, Ryu has screen control, but how is Ryu going to followup if he intended to use a Hadouken to confirm into something through its hit stun? Or worse, what if he's up against a better zoner and now he's the one without stage control? Ryu would be able to chip away and launch you the entire screen, but someone else can keep you in place, maybe do even more damage with their projectiles, and maybe even combo off of them.

In context to Smash, if Mega Man's Metal Saw sent people flying, it might interfere with Metal Saw's utility. Sure, he might be able to kill with them or maintain better stage control because of how far they're launched, but what if he doesn't want that? What if Mega Man just wants to harass you and stall and interrupt your movement without him having to chase you because his Metal Saw is apparently a Metal Brick?
 
Last edited:

wpwood

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
187
Random idea with Palu's reflector:

When someone is recovering at a diagonal or horizontal towards the ledge, try running off the ledge and throwing out a reflect in front of it.

What happens next?
It's a very special situation. First her reflector doesn't fall it will just go straight out and leave her with the end lag. So I wouldn't do that at the risk of falling too low. The fact that reflect doesn't fall with her makes it a little harder to edge guard PK boys. Second it usually doesn't send far enough to block the edge every time, and sometimes can push up allowing them to drift to the stage more. So in situations where I could use reflect I would either, grab ledge and bair, nair, or keep practicing at hitting dair. If I can land dair more often kills will be a bit easier to get. Only time I would use reflect to edge guard is if I was on the stage and didn't have time to run off and get an aerial in, but frame 5 nair is usually there for me.

However reflect does have some uses. Sometimes when an opponent comes at me with an aerial if I time it right I can use reflect to keep them in the air for a fair punish, but that only works on long lasting aerials. So it's still a very special situation.
 
Last edited:

Nobie

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Messages
2,251
NNID
SDShamshel
3DS FC
2809-8958-8223
I was thinking about this with both Zelda Phantom and Palutena's Reflect, which create "obstacles," and they should really stay out longer and let their users move WHILE THEY'RE OUT. They would become powerful space control tools that don't completely eliminate their weaknesses, but at least give them ways to dictate the match.
 
Last edited:

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
I was thinking about this with both Zelda and Palutena's Down B's, which create "obstacles," and they should really stay out longer and let their users move WHILE THEY'RE OUT. They would become powerful space control tools that don't completely eliminate their weaknesses, but at least give them ways to dictate the match.
Silly nitpick but Palutena's reflector is a Fspecial and the counter the Dspecial.
 

wpwood

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
187
I was thinking about this with both Zelda and Palutena's Down B's, which create "obstacles," and they should really stay out longer and let their users move WHILE THEY'RE OUT. They would become powerful space control tools that don't completely eliminate their weaknesses, but at least give them ways to dictate the match.
Palutena's side b* (but I know what you mean). Paltuena can actually move for a very few frames while reflect is out; part of the reason why I think it could be the best grounded reflector, but also the worst reflector because of everything else. Maybe if the end lag wasn't so bad we could see some stuff coming from the 'wall' reflect makes. The 'wall' effect of this move is probably about the same as or slightly worse than trying to walk through the sandbag in the training room (while it is still moving forward), but I can see that being an interesting thing should it get buffed either in end lag, how long the move is out, or how much it slows a character trying to pass through it.

I'm not too sure about Zelda's down b since it is an actual attack and 'wall.' I mean the move can kill and can pick people off the ledge on regrab if spaced right and is charged enough. But that also gives her a decent reach off stage with a move that can kill without having to leave the stage. Also the armor can absorb physical attacks for her. So I think the 'wall' effect of this move is great and if Zelda had less lag that would potentially set up for follow ups in special situations. I don't think a Zelda would want that move staying out longer since if it is destroyed she can't use the move again for so many seconds.

Do any other moves have a 'wall' effect or are these the only 2?
 
Last edited:

MysteriousSilver

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
774
Location
Lincoln, NE
Palutena's reflector is great as a reflector. Pit's is much, much worse and I don't see how anyone would think otherwise.

You realize that the reflector and windbox are still active after it's FAF? While this isn't particularly special against big one-shot projectiles like aura sphere (in fact, unlike other reflectors, hers doesn't cover her landings against these very well) but it's an amazing tool against zoners, particularly Villager. It covers all his mid and long range options, and she can begin to take her next action before she's vulnerable to slingshots etc. It also does wonders against fireball-happy Luigis, who also don't have the speed to push through the windbox in time to really punish her for it if she's using it at the correct range.

Pit's, meanwhile, has some hella cooldown time without any real advantages in a 1v1 situation: no one is going to accidently reflect the complete opposite direction of the opponent, covering both sides is pretty useless.

I would probably even run it over Super Speed in the villager matchup in a customs environment, because it completely removes his normal gameplan and his weaknesses (mainly foot speed) start becoming much, much more relevant. I have timed Villagers out on multiple occasions through this.
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
I mean, even if Palutena's isn't the straight worst (which I still think it is, again ignoring moves that clearly have their main purpose as something else) it's not among the best and not an amazing special. So I'm pretty happy to stand by my original assessment of her having crappy specials.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom