Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Mazdamaxsti]

Can someone legitimately tell me why customs aren't allowed anymore. I know Thinkamans post using To Kill a Mockingbird should have sufficed, but I'm extremely befuddled on how we came to the conclusion that customs, in which help worse characters, can't be used. The people that went far in EVO went far because they had fundamentals. Look, I don't even use them cuz I don't practice them (I actually think that's the real reason they ain't allowed, there really isn't a stable outlet for people to practice them and then when they lose to them, they blame it on jank instead of not preparing for it), but if there is something that in the game that doesn't destroy the game, and simultaneously makes characters, better why not use it? @Dabuz said he essays on how he believes customs shouldn't be allowed, but I actually want to see these essays. Information is something that I don't think people should withhold.

I feel like people used their misinformed ideas and lack of practice to make a serious stab in the meta. The lack of customs stifles characters that would like them. Yes, some top tiers got better moves...kinda, and some characters like Robin and Jiggs just gets unlucky with customs, but the vast majority got better with them. Oh well, maybe I'm just crazy in wanting some characters to be on the most optimal playing field.

Customs help SOME low tiers get better, while the rest get even worse. That's not good.

 

[Mettie7]

Just.. have a non-custom bracket and a custom bracket. People who want to enter whichever are free to do so. Imo though, I don't think the customs bracket would get nearly as many entrants as the non-customs bracket. Don't know how big the venue would need to be or any other logistics like that, but it seems like a fair idea. Eventually though, I think people would just accept their new non-custom overlords and move on.

Also the big gripe about customs I have is how time consuming it is to get them all. If they had released them all from the get-go I'm sure more people would be open to it.

Please don't suggest microtransactions as an alternative to a bad system.

Also this 100%

 

[Rizen]

Any uair can cancel out the falling hydrant hitbox except for mega man and rosa's.

It's strange, and I don't know why it happens.

It's why pacman can't drop hydrants as liberally as most people believe when trying to return to nuetral from the air.

You want to try and be unpredictable with your hydrant drop, return to the ground with dair drive (our dair increases the speed of our fastfall), or if all else fails, retreat to the ledge with side B.

Do the Uairs have to do a certain amount of damage to beat hydrant?

On the topic of Pacman, do you think he could rise in the tier list? Pacman has some really good frame data like frame 3 Nair, trampoline, etc and good mix-up options. But then again a solid game plan (like Ryu has) usually beats improvising. I don't really know Pac's MUs but could see him as a high tier in theory.

 

[Dinoman96]

Truth be told, I wouldn't really care that much about custom moves had Palutena not been completely tied into it all.

It's just frustrating. This character really needs her customs to shine, but customs don't exist in the competitive scene anymore. And Sakurai isn't going to majorly buff her because he probably thinks she's just fine with customs...despite basically not existing at this point.

She just seems trapped in low/bottom tier with no way out. It's like her best hope at this point is waiting for a Project M-esque mod to come along and completely change her character around.

 

[meleebrawler]

Do the Uairs have to do a certain amount of damage to beat hydrant?

On the topic of Pacman, do you think he could rise in the tier list? Pacman has some really good frame data like frame 3 Nair, trampoline, etc and good mix-up options. But then again a solid game plan (like Ryu has) usually beats improvising. I don't really know Pac's MUs but could see him as a high tier in theory.

A falling hydrant doesn't exactly do a lot of damage. You'd only see particularly weak multihits losing to hit.

 

[DunnoBro]

Customs help SOME low tiers get better, while the rest get even worse. That's not good.

No, they stay worse.

It's no different than some bad characters getting direct buffs and others remaining the same. Equality is a nice sentiment but if you're going to halt the progress of someone else because you won't personally benefit from it, that's just destructive.

That said, customs are just not self-sufficient or accessible enough to be a sustainable and healthy meta. If player mentality was different it might be a different story, but it isn't and putting in all this extra effort to run counter to their wishes is just asking for trouble.

Unless nintendo directly intervenes and makes customs not only easily unlockable, but also remedies the custom set making process (either more slots or some sort of expedited en mass set transferring. Preferably via SD) there's little future for customs.

But, I think we've spent enough time on this custom tangent so I'd like to steer the discussion elsewhere, like if someone can check something for me.

For a long time now it's been assumed DHD's fsmash angles were totally random and not effected by angling, however there may be some secret input to mitigate it.

After angling and timed mashes of the A button as the smash goes on (timed to coincide with the shots as they come out), I was able to get at least the first shot to line up with my angling roughly 85% of the time for each angle.

Likelihood went up with part charge but down with full and no charge. It seems unlikely that they'd implement something like that without elaborating on it (though it would make sense regardless) but if DHD could ensure the shots were always high he'd be a way better character. (Could actually anti-air/punish air dodges)

Is there any way to check the code or find evidence it looks for a specific input?

 

[Nobie]

Oh I just remembered the other argument against customs: balance patches.

One of the arguments about Customs is that they could balance out the game in lieu of patches. However, patchs happen. As more balance patches come out, the game gets better and better balanced. What happens when you then throw in those old powerful custom moves into this new environment?

 

[Nu~]

Do the Uairs have to do a certain amount of damage to beat hydrant?

On the topic of Pacman, do you think he could rise in the tier list? Pacman has some really good frame data like frame 3 Nair, trampoline, etc and good mix-up options. But then again a solid game plan (like Ryu has) usually beats improvising. I don't really know Pac's MUs but could see him as a high tier in theory.

Almost any move can clash with it, but you still have to deal 13% and over to launch it.

I see him as a high tier, but there is some counterplay to his tools that the general public doesn't know about yet. I'm still a firm believer that our counterplay won't be too big of a problem in the future.


The pacman community is finally starting to optimize their setups and remove all gimmicks (outside of the occasional surprise factor/mix up)
as long as we keep this up, pacman will remain a threat

 

[Dinoman96]

Oh I just remembered the other argument against customs: balance patches.

One of the arguments about Customs is that they could balance out the game in lieu of patches. However, patchs happen. As more balance patches come out, the game gets better and better balanced. What happens when you then throw in those old powerful custom moves into this new environment?

You know the last balance patch consisted of almost nothing but changes for custom moves, yes?

 

[ぱみゅ]

This thread is going places. Please move any further Custom Legality discussion here: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/

Consider this a mixture of a friendly reminder and a last warning c:

 

[GeneralLedge]

EDIT: Moved to other topic.

 

[Peppermint1201]

EDIT: Nevermind, this post was about customs but we need to stay on topic.

 

[Nobie]

Edit: Whoops didn't see that message either. Let's change this to a different topic.

How boned are some characters by slanted surfaces? They're seemingly innocuous but they're obnoxious obstacles for at least a few.

 

[Lavani]

Any uair can cancel out the falling hydrant hitbox except for mega man and rosa's.

It's strange, and I don't know why it happens.

It's why pacman can't drop hydrants as liberally as most people believe when trying to return to nuetral from the air.

You want to try and be unpredictable with your hydrant drop, return to the ground with dair drive (our dair increases the speed of our fastfall), or if all else fails, retreat to the ledge with side B.

Olimar's uair can't cancel it either. It clanks, but since it's technically the pikmin hitting it, it'll still continue and hit Olimar afterward. He can still beat it out with nair though.

When the hydrant's falling, it just functions as a standard projectile, and can be clanked like a standard projectile. Its HP doesn't come into play and it can't be launched by damage, so it just ignores transcendent attacks (like Mega Man's uair/usmash and Rosalina's uair/utilt).

I can't help but feel Rosalina's halos were made transcendent with the Pac-Man matchup in mind. She can't just pressure Pac freely in the air and has to respect hydrant because of it. Seems like subtle compensation for GP limiting item play in the matchup.

 

[LancerStaff]

Edit: Whoops didn't see that message either. Let's change this to a different topic.

How boned are some characters by slanted surfaces? They're seemingly innocuous but they're obnoxious obstacles for at least a few.

Sheik I can imagine having trouble between needles and Fair kinda failing... Actually, how good/bad a stage is Lylat for Sheik? Lol sorry for answering your question with a question.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Edit: Whoops didn't see that message either. Let's change this to a different topic.

How boned are some characters by slanted surfaces? They're seemingly innocuous but they're obnoxious obstacles for at least a few.

To be honest I can't 100% tell you why but ROB greatly benefits from being diagonally upwards from his opponent, such as being on the left of default Castle Siege and in the same orientation on Lylat Cruise. Now, Castle Siege is still ****ing terrible for ROB thanks to the transformation with the statues and the massive ceiling on the transformation with the rocky surface swaying back and forth but Lylat is one of ROB's better stages by far. You're right in that they don't make a massive difference, but they can really help certain characters out.

 

[Rizen]

When the hydrant's falling, it just functions as a standard projectile, and can be clanked like a standard projectile. Its HP doesn't come into play and it can't be launched by damage, so it just ignores transcendent attacks (like Mega Man's uair/usmash and Rosalina's uair/utilt).

I've launched it with Link's Uair which does 15% damage.

I know Link doesn't like Lylat because the slant. If he faces up hill his grab range is greatly reduced and most attacks don't curve up to match the slant and simply go into the stage. It's kind of a double edged sword since when Link faces downhill attacks like bombs can cover a huge distance.

 

[bc1910]

Edit: Whoops didn't see that message either. Let's change this to a different topic.

How boned are some characters by slanted surfaces? They're seemingly innocuous but they're obnoxious obstacles for at least a few.

Ugh, Greninja's shurikens are useless if he's facing an upward slope. He hates them because of that. Although the only stage where it really affects him is Lylat, other sloped stages like Delfino and Halberd give him other advantages because they tend to have low ceilings.

 

[Nu~]

I know pacman likes them because they make fruit come back to him. Easy z drops for dayz.

 

[thehard]

At Tipped Off, ScAtt used one of Lylat's slants to make Mega's side-b essentially act as a timed land mine.

 

[LancerStaff]

We... Certainly change subjects fast. We talk about who sucks on slopes for a few posts and now we're bragging about who does well.

Well, Pit likes Lylat. Platforms are at a good height for him and his arrows work on almost every angle. Castle Siege is good too, since he can lame out characters on the second transformation effectively. Although I don't think that stage is really legal anymore...

At Tipped Off, ScAtt used one of Lylat's slants to make Mega's side-b essentially act as a timed land mine.

Isn't Mega kinda toast on that stage besides that?

 

[IsmaR]

ScAtt also used Mega Man's down tilt to stage spike Duck Hunt on Lylat in his set against MVD.

I wouldn't say he's toast at all so much as Sheik could care less what stage/platforms she's extending combos on in that match up.

 

[Splash Damage]

Edit: Whoops didn't see that message either. Let's change this to a different topic.

How boned are some characters by slanted surfaces? They're seemingly innocuous but they're obnoxious obstacles for at least a few.

From what I'm seeing, projectile characters/zoners don't seem to like them, for pretty simple reasons:Slant eats projectiles. Sometimes grabs too in link/toon's case. Mac doesn't love slants as they can weirdly affect his tilt spacing, but not in a hugely significant or crazy unpredictable way.(As an extension, Lylat's not that bad for mac as only the center platform is problematic, and the tilting stage technically makes his recovery worse, but 0 divided by 2 is still 0. But Lylat's another conversation.) Also shootouts to Thinkaman for giving me king-sized spoilers on a book I probably should have read already.

 

[Ffamran]

His awful grab and lack of immediate pressure (pacman needs time to set up) keep him honest.

Pac-Man's grab is the only grab to have the same startup, active, recovery, and total frames for all 3 grab options. No character has this. Oh, and Pac-Man's the only character with a grab that's essentially mystery meat. What do I mean? Let's look at its hit frames: 12-14, 22-24, and 32-39. First part is the slowest melee grab, second is the slowest ranged grab, and the third? A crippled "tether" grab. There are 11 frame gaps between each part. No character has anything remotely close to that. Maybe ZSS with her frame 16-19 and 16-29 st. and pivot grab, but that overlaps and we might as well consider it just a frame 16-29 grab. Pac-Man? Noooooope.

Multi-hits generally have at most 4 frame gaps like Zelda's Nair, Falco's Up Smash, or Link's Up Smash. Even then, because there's hit stun, sometimes that doesn't matter like Falco's Nair that has gaps of 2, 5, and 6, but a grab? There isn't any hit stun. Here's the other issue, they, the developers, screwed themselves by giving Pac-Man that grab. Let's say we remove the 11 frame gaps... Welp, most broken grab in the game, everyone; a frame 12-39, 28 active, grab with 36 recovery frames regardless if it's standing, dash, or pivot. Now, if they do that in a reasonable way... Pac-Man's either going to have worse recovery than Samus's pivot times 2 or Pac-Man's active frames would be cut down to something like 12-19.

Speaking of other grabs, Ganondorf's... WHY!? Had a match where this Ganondorf tried to grab me, his hand was practically grazing my arm. Nothing. As Fox, I basically grabbed thin air and Ganondorf got sucked in. I'm sorry, but what? Gee, guys, let's make Ganondorf's grab hitbox be his freaking palms while Fox's has some invisible claws attached on his fingers. This becomes hilarious in hindsight when Falco's flappy fingers has about the same hitbox as Fox's despite his much longer fingers and that Captain Falcon frankly does not give a damn when his highest recovery is dash grab's 27 - makes sense since he lunges forward - followed by 23 for pivot and 22 for standing. Ganondorf? 27 is his standing grab followed by 30 for his pivot and 32 for his dash when in no way in hell an old man jogging can ever hope to grab people like Captain Falcon, a much younger and fresher man. This goes for the both of them, but who the hell grabs like that? If Ganondorf's grab was like Ryu's or Mario's, it would be much better despite the high recovery and Captain Falcon? With the knees he uses, you'd expect him to clinch people like a Muay Thai fighter which... Ryu does. Part of me wished Captain Falcon's F-throw was a flying knee instead of the weird punch thing whose animation was polished since in Melee, it looked dumb as hell. Oh, and D-throw could have been this badass and brutal jump and elbow to the head. Those two along with 64 Capt.'s Side Smash would have given Ganondorf some unique moves because Captain Falcon wasn't using them anymore. Oh well.

Edit: I just realized that Ganondorf's arms at idle are farther out than his grab...

 

[MysteriousSilver]

There's nothing wrong with Palutena lol. And this coming from someone who has played a lot of Palutena. Her moveset has clear direction and objective with how it was designed. She has wicked good frame data and mobility specs, too, so idk what you're on about there.

It's clear she was designed to be a very safe, poking based turtle fighter, with a side of half grappler, and the ability to make big reads through some pretty bad but hard hitting smashes. She functions in this role quite well and is quite unique in the niche she has. She does have some flaws, but they aren't her specials or her frame data. What's she held back by? Her intended playstyle is not very good in this game. Even Rosalina, who is completely bonkers, is barely holding onto her top 5 position in this game. You have to give something incredibly absurd to this playstyle for it to thrive, and luma is that thing.

wicked good frame data

What

Even if we cherry pick her best moves she has -decent- frame data at best. If we include the ones she actually needs for her to function she's got pretty crap frame data.

But that's not why I made this post. I take issue with this statement:

Her intended playstyle is not very good in this game

The idea that -any- sort of playstyle is somehow unviable in a vacuum is an idea I take issue with. For starters, Rosaluma is clearly making it work. And if she's struggling to hold on to a top-5 position (which is the best 10% of this game, keep in mind; being #6 in a game of ~50 characters does not mean you're underwhelming), then she's clearly not that bonkers.

The issue isn't that poking/turtling/hard reads are inherently weak, it's that the strength of these aspects were overestimated by the balance team and she isn't properly tuned. I mentioned this before, but if Ganon had an OHKO smash, I think he'd be in contention for the top or even just completely bust-o. A character that had stronger tools for walling people out, more reward on hit, or some sort of actual kill set up could be much better with Palu's same philosophy.

Heck, before the shield patch (and to some degree, even after) this was a game that a lot of people considered pretty defensive. If a poking/turtling character can't run that sort of environment, I don't know when they ever could.

And I wouldn't even call hard reads a part of her game in the way that Ganon or similar get them; for their terrible, terrible frame data her smashes' damage and kill power aren't really impressive. The outlying aspect of them is clearly supposed to be their range, but outside of niche situations with Usmash it doesn't really end up doing that much for her.

Palu's design philosophy is not what holds her back. It's a lot of minor weaknesses in a bunch of areas on top of having really no good way to kill. It's not that her gameplan is inherently broken, it's that there are just pieces missing from it and the other aspects of her aren't tuned hard enough to compensate.

 

[BSP]

Do the Uairs have to do a certain amount of damage to beat hydrant?

On the topic of Pacman, do you think he could rise in the tier list? Pacman has some really good frame data like frame 3 Nair, trampoline, etc and good mix-up options. But then again a solid game plan (like Ryu has) usually beats improvising. I don't really know Pac's MUs but could see him as a high tier in theory.

Other Pac-Man players may disagree with me, but I'm thinking he's going to stay high mid (16-25th, the jumble of "capable" characters) until his grab gets changed in some way. He's got some solid frame data and some scary mixups/ledge setups, but his grab holds him back that much.

He flat out doesn't have a consistent, good answer to shield.

Yes, he's got shield breaking capabilities with certain fruits in hand, but that takes setup time + it's pretty telegraphed. TBH, Pac-Man is capable of a lot of things when he has setup time. No one who knows the MU will give it to him though.

His primary option to beat shield is trampoline for 7%. However, that requires him to be on top of the opponent, and the thing is unsafe on hit until mid %'s and higher. Furthermore, and this is the biggest problem, trampoline doesn't lead to an advantaged state of any kind. Most characters in the game at least get a juggle situation or something when they get a grab, even if they don't have auto combos like Mario, Sheik, Falcon, etc. When I grab people with Mario, even when I'm past combo % I get edge guards and juggles that can lead into lethal moves more easily.

With Pac-Man? He trampolines you for 7% and the situation returns to neutral unless you're at 150%+, which means the problem has already occurred. That's not a good enough answer to shield, and when you realize this it's easy to live to 150%+ against him. Enjoy your rage.

Other than that, he's still riding on MU inexperience a bit IMO. People still feel the need to attack the hydrant instead of ignoring it, and I still see a lot of the faster characters waste time hitting it instead of running through it. Once people stop wasting time and stay on him, his weaknesses will become even more apparent. Maybe then he'll get buffed, except he'll probably destroy anyone without enough mobility to stay on him constantly. He's in a tough spot.

All of that being said, I don't think he has any MU worse than 40:60. Still, multiple 40:60s with the most relevant characters in the game is a problem.

 

[thehard]

He flat out doesn't have a consistent, good answer to shield.

OH YEAH?

 

[BSP]

OH YEAH?

I know you're joking, but that brings up a good point. Yes, Pac-Man's got options once he's set up. Pac-Man with a key in his hand can handle nearly anything, but no one is going to give him the time to get it consistently and safely. It takes quite a while to charge to Key and get it in hand, plus Pac-Man has to expose him to an edgeguard to do so since the only way we know how to re catch key without opponent intervention is throwing it at a wall. If the opponent knows the MU and constantly rushes Pac-Man, he won't have time to do it safely.

Once he does have the key in hand, this is something to watch out for. That being said, you'll never get your shield broken by this unless you let it happen. Since even the Key is easy to cancel with attacks, you can continue the fight with your own projectiles or well spaced aerials and tilts.

Edit: but hey, maybe this is the future of Pac-Man's meta. Camp super hard until you get the key in hand, then leverage the skewed risk : reward as much as possible.

 

[Nu~]

I still believe that the direction PacMan's meta should go in is to use your tools (hydrant and trampoline) to buy time until you get fruits in the hand.

Then you go in and shred the opponent with your 2D weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Kofu]

From what I'm seeing, projectile characters/zoners don't seem to like them, for pretty simple reasons:Slant eats projectiles. Sometimes grabs too in link/toon's case. Mac doesn't love slants as they can weirdly affect his tilt spacing, but not in a hugely significant or crazy unpredictable way.(As an extension, Lylat's not that bad for mac as only the center platform is problematic, and the tilting stage technically makes his recovery worse, but 0 divided by 2 is still 0. But Lylat's another conversation.) Also shootouts to Thinkaman for giving me king-sized spoilers on a book I probably should have read already.

Villager's the exception to the rule. When facing an opponent on higher ground than he is he is far more capable of pelting them with slingshots than normal. When he has the high ground he can use Lloid to restrict their vertical options and go in in other ways. His dash attack becomes longer ranged, too.

Helps that he also loves the platform arrangement.

 

[wpwood]

You're cherry picking really hard on your frame data argument. How can you mention ftilt but not mention things she has that are really good, like fair, bair, jab. Yeah her tilts are bad. Tilts don't represent a full moveset, though. That's just absurd.

Also I mirror what Wintropy has said. Lightweight doesn't fix her problems, it just masks them (at the expense of subverting her design philosophy)

Yes I didn't mention jab. I also didn't mention how fast fallers can raise shield before rapid jab comes out at lower %'s.

As I said before. Her fastest and best moves are her aerials. But I also mentioned that she has the 44th slowest air speed in the game. So even her best moves are still hindered a bit.

And yes tilts do not represent a full moveset of a character. Tilts only represent 3/8 of all a character's grounded attacks, but how often do you use smash attacks? Which is why I also mentioned all specials and how 3/4 of her specials have some of the longest end lag compared to moves of the same type, except for autoreticle which doesn't have a move truly similar to it, but it still has a good bit of lag.

So I talked about how 6/16 of all her attacks are slow and laggy in detail. I mentioned how her air speed holds back her aerials (lightweight changes air speed), but let's still consider them viable because they are to an extent and are a major part of her play (Keep in mind 44th air speed). Her smashes are laggy as well but that is to account for their range and the, not as strong as I would like, wind boxes. Her dash attack is disjointed, invincible, and one of the slower ones to recover from, but it's clear why it's slow so it's a decent move as well.

So really 10/16 of her moves are slow and laggy, 4 of which (smashes 3, dash attack 1) make some sense and her aerials another 4 moves are not the best because of her slower air speed.

Lightweight is very gimmicky and doesn't really make up for palutena's flaws, it just gives her a bunch of really dumb strengths.

I fail to understand how strengths do not make up for her weaknesses. That's pretty much the whole point of the move. To compensate for the lackluster frame data that makes her weak by giving her lightweight. Rosa on her own is a weak character and she has luma to be a strength to cover her weaknesses. Now luma can also be a weakness because of how fast it can die. The same is true of lightweight. It is a strength until it wears off and then it becomes a weakness.

I don't think Palutena needs Lightweight, but it does make her otherwise mediocre kit more viable in terms of the opportunities it opens. That's a pretty big deal and it'd definitely make her a more consistent character in terms of followups and making use of her otherwise weak advantage.

Lightweight won't fix her mediocre tilts and smashes and it won't really change her gampelan: she will still be a defensive grappler who wants to get the grab, she will still suffer in neutral and she will still have to fish massively for kills. It will definitely make her better, but it won't necessarily make her good. She'd need her other customs for that to be a reality. Cherry-picking one custom, even with the best of intent (and I do agree with the spirit of your message), won't fix what currently makes her a weak character; it will just mask it.

How does giving her access to all her specials over just lightweight make her good when her other 3 default specials have uses? Yes lightweight will NOT FIX her mediocre titls and smashes, but what it will do is MAKE UP for them. I and many other Palutena players are under the impression that her frame data is a result of lightweight. The two very well complement each other and this is the move she needs to be viable. Her slower frame data is what is holding her down and lightweight is what will lift her up. You can look at it as lightweight makes her amazing and her slower frame data balances her, except that she can't use lightweight: which is why I have done all of this.

Lightweight does in a sense change her game plan. She can edge guard better, she can combo better, and she can confirm kills better. Yes, this is not a major change to her game plan and the change only last a small amount of time, but it's enough of a change to matter. It's enough of a change to make her more viable.

Now you say lightweight will just mask her weaknesses. But that is the point of the move: to cover her slowness by giving her speed.

 

[Antonykun]

Villager's the exception to the rule. When facing an opponent on higher ground than he is he is far more capable of pelting them with slingshots than normal. When he has the high ground he can use Lloid to restrict their vertical options and go in in other ways. His dash attack becomes longer ranged, too.

Helps that he also loves the platform arrangement.

and if the opponent happens to be in a lower slope there is no way in heck villager is going to hit them with Slingshots.
It's fine in Lylat because the stage will eventually tilt in your favor but in part 1 of Castle Seige you can more or less camp in the lower portion of the stage

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lightweight being unusable is the one thing stopping Palutena being high/top tier imo.

You're cherry picking really hard on your frame data argument. How can you mention ftilt but not mention things she has that are really good, like fair, bair, jab. Yeah her tilts are bad. Tilts don't represent a full moveset, though. That's just absurd.

I think it's hardpressed to call fair/bair/jab "really good".

Fair is frame 9 and does 8% with a super long FAF. Low-ish landing lag is its saving grace.

Bair is frame 8 with pretty much full body invincibility but it doesn't really do that much damage (12/9%) alongside the fact that out of a short hop it hits really high so most of the time you need to be landing with it to actually hit people with a very average 16 frames of landing lag. Cool.

Jab is frame 8. Good reward on hit and it's kinda safe on block, but it's FRAME 8 and her fastest grounded option aside from standing grab wtf

 

[Kaladin]

Palutena's jab is a good ftilt. That's how I describe it.

 

[Trifroze]

Palutena gets a lot better with customs but doesn't become high let alone top tier because she has other problems that were already mentioned. Lightweight doesn't carry her that hard either, it gives her some nice combos and earlyish kills off of grabs, as well as godlike mobility, but her shorthops become awkward and rising fair isn't an option anymore even against taller characters. As Palutena's opponent you can also just focus on timing (most of) her lightweight out by spending as much time as you can afford in situations where she shouldn't chase you, and do everything you can to avoid her grab when you're both in neutral which isn't too difficult.

 

[Teshie U]

I know you're joking, but that brings up a good point. Yes, Pac-Man's got options once he's set up. Pac-Man with a key in his hand can handle nearly anything, but no one is going to give him the time to get it consistently and safely. It takes quite a while to charge to Key and get it in hand, plus Pac-Man has to expose him to an edgeguard to do so since the only way we know how to re catch key without opponent intervention is throwing it at a wall. If the opponent knows the MU and constantly rushes Pac-Man, he won't have time to do it safely.

Once he does have the key in hand, this is something to watch out for. That being said, you'll never get your shield broken by this unless you let it happen. Since even the Key is easy to cancel with attacks, you can continue the fight with your own projectiles or well spaced aerials and tilts.

Edit: but hey, maybe this is the future of Pac-Man's meta. Camp super hard until you get the key in hand, then leverage the skewed risk : reward as much as possible.

This actually reminds me of how hard people run from Ranai when he has the tree up (has Axe). Not a terrible thing for a zoner to have to play some aggression. Robin has Arc Thunder that locks people in place whether they shield or not. Megaman has leaf shield with metal blade in hand (super annoying if you don't have amazing frame data). Wii Fit has deep breathing (low key some of the strongest smashes and aerials). Villager with the Axe and Pacman with the item setups.

You've been chasing me all match, but for the next 10 seconds, I WILL CHASE YOU!

Now that I think of it, didn't someone just mention how lylat "eats projectiles". I'm pretty sure you can toss the key into the slant and pick it right back up. Any stage with slanted platforms should be able to help with this (delfino, halberd, castle siege)

In any case wouldn't this work just as easily with the Melon (somewhat easy to catch up to recatch after thrown), it does almost the same damage.


Palutena doesn't really become "good" with lightweight. Her mobility isn't holding her back at all. Helping her get close to or far away from situations won't help her deal with frame 1-3 jabs and meaty hitboxes stopping all her mixups. Trying to give her lightweight to "fix" her is a stretch.

Samus would also be improved by her custom missiles and bombs. But it wont fix whats wrong with her.

 

[Kofu]

and if the opponent happens to be in a lower slope there is no way in heck villager is going to hit them with Slingshots.
It's fine in Lylat because the stage will eventually tilt in your favor but in part 1 of Castle Seige you can more or less camp in the lower portion of the stage

I haven't played in months so I probably shouldn't even be posting in this thread but I figure when the opponent is below you on a slope you can just pester them with full hop DAirs.

 

[ScAtt77]

but Atticus is a freaking racist piece of crap now lol. But besides that, I'm in full support of Palutena and the miis getting customs. They come automatically with the game, so why not? I'm suprised they're letting us talk about customs, but I'm excited!

I find this phenomenon very strange. Sheik is the best character, but her strengths don't seem as cheesy as ZSS or Luma. Most Characters can have a prayer against but it seems like stupid grab and star slave gives them more polarizing matchups. They have more 70:30's, but there spread is definitely isn't as great as


I believe it's because his projectiles interrupt spin dash, but i could be wrong. Hey, you can always tag him!
I special summon to the field in debate mode, ScAtt77 : the previously mentioned main!

I'll just throw out a couple of reasons for now:

- Obviously, pellets are big in this match-up; the fact that Mega Man doesn't have to guess nearly as hard as other characters when Sonic Spin Charges is a big boon for Mega Man.

-Leaf Shield + Shield > All of Sonic's approaches. If Sonic doesn't approach, you either throw it or walk forward and shield to get back stage control.

- Mega Man can pressure Sonic off stage better than vice-versa. Upwards thrown Metal Blades and U-airs stop Spin Shots in their tracks. It's pretty easy to trap sonic on the ledge.

 

[Ffamran]

Fair is frame 9 and does 8% with a super long FAF. Low-ish landing lag is its saving grace.

Pally's Fair is like a weaker Lucas Fair with better auto-cancel and landing lag which in turn, his could be considered a more versatile Zelda Fair. It's really stupid when you figure a goddess who also has access to supernatural powers has a weaker kick than some little runt with supernatural powers. It'd be like if Ike's Side Smash was noticeably weaker than Toon Link's Ftilt. It isn't, but man, would it be hella stupid if it was.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Jab is frame 8. Good reward on hit and it's kinda safe on block, but it's FRAME 8 and her fastest grounded option aside from standing grab wtf

Technically Dash Attack is faster at 6 frames (armor means it acts like frame 3.5 when beating out other moves, it loses on frame 3 and wins on frame 4+) but that's hella punishable and... I think there's some kind of startup on Dash that adds to the startup if you want to do it from standing? Right? But I can't find data on that at the moment for some reason.