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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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Dinoman96

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You're cherry picking really hard on your frame data argument. How can you mention ftilt but not mention things she has that are really good, like fair, bair, jab. Yeah her tilts are bad. Tilts don't represent a full moveset, though. That's just absurd.

Also I mirror what Wintropy has said. Lightweight doesn't fix her problems, it just masks them (at the expense of subverting her design philosophy)
Her aerials are good yes, but basically every single grounded attack of hers except jab and down tilt have excessive amount of endlag. Thus having bad frame data. And her design philosophy was being able to change the way she plays through custom moves in the first place anyways.

From her trophy description:

"In Kid Icarus: Uprising, the goddess of light uses telepathy to communicate and grants miracles to support Pit on his adventure. In Smash Bros., she has special moves like Warp and Heavenly Light at her disposal. She's very adaptable—you can customize her into a long- or close-range fighter!"
 
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DunnoBro

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You're cherry picking really hard on your frame data argument. How can you mention ftilt but not mention things she has that are really good, like fair, bair, jab. Yeah her tilts are bad. Tilts don't represent a full moveset, though. That's just absurd.

Also I mirror what Wintropy has said. Lightweight doesn't fix her problems, it just masks them (at the expense of subverting her design philosophy)
If you think palutena of all characters was not designed with customs in mind you should probably stop posting as if you understand how she plays/is meant to be played.

End of story, palutena will always be non-viable without customs and without a total character revamp this will remain true.

(Also, lightweight alone isn't enough to make her viable. She needs super speed for neutral and jump glide for disadvantage.)
 
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Amadeus9

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If you think palutena of all characters was not designed with customs in mind you should probably stop posting as if you understand how she plays/is meant to be played.
Calm down bro. That edge is pretty sharp.

I'm not interested in adding a nonstandard play element to a single fighter that functions fine in standard play anyways. Anything outside this reason is fluff. Fluff that I definitely think is true, though.

And don't presume about me. It's not conducive to constructive conversation.
 

A2ZOMG

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I agree.
Tether grabs aren't nearly as bad as the were in Brawl. SSB4's game (endlag/landing/shield) mechanics are more suited to them and the range of other grabs is balanced better; no more Brawl DDD or Melee Marth grab distance. I think of Link's grab as a 'punishing grab'. See a landing>grab, opponent is in any kind of lag>grab, opponent's wiffs an attack and grab goes strait through the hitbubbles. Link's grab is literally as long as Shulk's Fsmash (tested).
I'm not saying that tethers are better, just that they can't be instantly ruled out as a "bad grab" like in previous games.
This, especially considering Nairo's results with ZSS grab in neutral. And to be frank, the way Link works, he'd probably be worse (but slightly more polarizing) with a normal grab when you factor how much his tether let's him make several options not safe in footsies, while a normal grab would force Link to rely more on his slightly subpar startup normals and mediocre air control to pressure people (Link isn't super fast BUT his ability to weave on the ground is highly underrated thanks to his super good run pivot).

Having a tool in neutral that beats both shield and attack in mid range cleanly, and also in Link's case leads to pretty massive reward or death mixups? Link is kinda criminally underrated. Especially since not only is he really good at getting people to shield with Bombs, Zair, safe on block tilts and Jab pressure, not even the best characters in the game want to challenge Link's anti-airs, some of who he KO confirms reliably out of Dthrow (Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Pikachu iirc).

And he's legitimately a top 5 character at edgeguarding. Almost every attack Link has, especially Dair, is seriously scary when you're offstage, and there's plenty of reasons to not recover high against Link's projectiles and anti-airs too.
 
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DunnoBro

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And don't presume about me. It's not conducive to constructive conversation.
I don't see how I'm presuming when you quite clearly state that palutena's customs "subvert her design philosophy" yet all evidence we have states the contrary.

I also don't see how being a candidate for worst character in the game by the community at large is "functioning fine in standard play" but it seems you're more interested in shaming me for making my argument than actually addressing it so feel free to continue down this path if you believe it to be truly conducive to discussion.
 

Kung Fu Treachery

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This whole Palutena business makes me think that customs were inadvertently a bad thing for character design progress, in that they became a sort of hotspot for innovation. Since we have, for some reason, decided that we never want to see customs in tournaments again, all of these neat ideas were wasted, and we're left with relatively conservative changes to characters that needed drastic overhauls. Let's use Ganon as an example ("Wow, he's talking about Ganon again, what a surprise.")

Ganon's weight doesn't help him because he still has poor survivability in all directions except up. This is a problem for many heavyweights; these characters tend to have poor recoveries and jumps, which are the things that really count in making a character hard to kill. Ganon's issues in this area have been well-documented since Melee. His recovery is garbage; we knew it, and the developers knew it. Enter Wizard's Dropkick. Suddenly, Ganon can cover horizontal distances decently, helping him recover and actually use his weight to his advantage (to say nothing of what Dropkick does for the rest of Ganon's game). But the developers don't want to alienate character loyalists. This is the reason that Ganon hasn't been revamped in the first place. So, rather than having to choose between keeping Wizard's Foot or changing it to Dropkick, the customs system lets us have it both ways. If you like pain, you can still play original Ganon, who is defaulted for familiarity. If you like pain slightly less, you can play Ganon with recovery options (I've gone this whole paragraph without mentioning Dark Fists, another clear upgrade to an abysmal default). But you can't play Custom Ganon in tournaments, so only the conservative default design is visible.

You can see this conservatism of default design in Palutena as well. She has customs that are incredibly distinct, and her default seems to exist as a bland, simple, beginner's version of the character, with a counter and a reflector rather than her more unique customs. This should be all upside, as you could play simple Palutena is you want to, and delve into her customs if you want to optimize her or adapt her to your style. But again, these design choices are invisible to us.

Customs have allowed for interesting design on the more and character level, but are shockingly poorly implemented when it comes to actually setting them and unlocking them (I think the fact that Palutena has her customs unlocked by default is actually a huge point in her favor.). I find it truly bizarre that you can't just mess with them on the CSS. It really does kill me that one of the best innovations in Smash 4 has had its back broken by poor menu design.

More troubling is the fact that the community just does not seems to like customs, and to be specific, the Against side is more passionate about the issue than the For side, from what I've seen. Players who want customs might consider this a +1 of some arbitrary enjoyment unit for their experience of the game; players against customs seem to consider it a -100 to their enjoyment. Pro-customs players just aren't willing to skip tournaments and force TOs to cater to them, and so customs have more or less fallen off the map. The best thing, I think, the developers could do to challenge this would be to make customs legal in 1v1 For Glory with random strangers, so that the community gets used to them. As it is, all their work seems to have been for nothing, and we're left with a more conservative game than we might otherwise like, in terms of character changes.

TL;DR: Customs became a space where developers could try different things to help out flawed characters, while avoiding player alienation that might result from outright replacing old moves. Because we ignore customs, we're left with many characters whose flaws were not at all addressed in their default configurations.
 

Dinoman96

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I just wonder if Sakurai completely forgot about For Glory when designing Palutena with custom moves in mind.

The best thing, I think, the developers could do to challenge this would be to make customs legal in 1v1 For Glory with random strangers, so that the community gets used to them. As it is, all their work seems to have been for nothing, and we're left with a more conservative game than we might otherwise like, in terms of character changes.
Tournament Mode is nice about this and offers 1v1 For Glory brackets that let you play with custom specials but no equipment, but the problem is you typically have to wait a really long time for each tourney (each medium sized bracket starts every half hour, for example), and, unless it's at night or on a weekend, they have trouble getting at-least eight players, the minimum required for a tourney to start.
 
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Y2Kay

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Earth reckons he gets bopped by Sonic too. He says it's Pit's worst matchup (and might contribute to why he carries Fox with him), and considering he gets to play Komokiri on a regular basis, I'd believe him.

I can see where he's coming from. Pit has no options to really challenge Sonic in neutral, he outruns Pit's arrows, he can challenge Pit's recovery and his speed makes it difficult for Pit to play footsies with him. You're still going to want to grab if possible, but Sonic's a slippery 'hog and that mitigates one of Pit's best options in neutral. Disjoints can be useful here, and Pit's probably going to want to play defensively in this matchup, but I don't think he really has anything to outright threaten Sonic.

This is a common theme for Pit, to be honest: he's got good options for dealing with anything and he doesn't get outright dropkicked by any of the top-tiers, but he doesn't have anything to make them sweat either. Pit has the tools to beat them and he will never get bodied on the CSS, but it requires consistency and, more often than not, a knack for outplaying the other guy. It's possible, but not something most top players want to deal with.
Now that I think about it, a pit main with a Mario secondary could put work in a tournament, as Mario beats or goes even with all his bad match ups except maybe Sonic. They also both gel together in the sense they both depend on fundementals to be good.

:150:
 
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DunnoBro

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I don't think customs were inherently bad design it's just they didn't follow through with the concept properly at all. If they couldn't/won't eventually then yea game would probably be irrefutably better if they didn't invest into them at all. But if they eventually address and solve the issues they have I think the game could be many times deeper/better.

Currently I like the "all or nothing" mentality though. Anything less than "all" is just going to be a compromise which does more harm than good imo.

Now that I think about it, a pit main with a Mario secondary could put work in a tournament, as Mario beats or goes even with all his bad match ups except maybe Sonic. They also both gel together in the sense they both depend on fundementals to be good.
Might as well use mario at that point, but in general it's becoming apparent Mario is likely the best secondary in the game due to his pick up and play nature, along with a similar amount of polarizing MUs to sheik.

IIRC the top 3 players in the Philippines have pocket marios. (They also make his SHAD look broken as hell.)
 
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MARTH_IS_BAE

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I wanted to talk about Marth.
Marth's dthrow combos are really unexplored but really amazing. Dthrow to dancing blade, Dthrow to uair, dthrow to air dodge frame trap tipper fsmash, even dthrow to dancing blade one to tipper fsmash...
Fsmash is so good. People say, "oh Marth won't land this move..." Good Marth players land this all the time. Ally a while ago played him in tourney and got one so easily.
Fsmash is super important and people cannot just discredit it because it is "hard to land". It's not. Next level Marth play might abuse his move to the point that Marth could be considered gimmicky/broken like Wario.
Honestly Marth seems like the most underrated character in the game. I could see him being high tier easily.
 

Cyclone_

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I wanted to talk about Marth.
Marth's dthrow combos are really unexplored but really amazing. Dthrow to dancing blade, Dthrow to uair, dthrow to air dodge frame trap tipper fsmash, even dthrow to dancing blade one to tipper fsmash...
Fsmash is so good. People say, "oh Marth won't land this move..." Good Marth players land this all the time. Ally a while ago played him in tourney and got one so easily.
Fsmash is super important and people cannot just discredit it because it is "hard to land". It's not. Next level Marth play might abuse his move to the point that Marth could be considered gimmicky/broken like Wario.
Honestly Marth seems like the most underrated character in the game. I could see him being high tier easily.
no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no...everything is wrong
 

Zelder

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I'm just glad you're coming at Marth's strengths from an unbiased perspective, MARTH_IS_BAE.


All teasing aside, I'd love for Marth to be high tier (because it seems wrong to not have a pretty blue haired anime man dominating tournaments), but I just don't see how it's possible. He's got no results, he doesn't have the theory, he doesn't have the...anything. It's a bummer.
 
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Rizen

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Let's use Ganon as an example ("Wow, he's talking about Ganon again, what a surprise.")

Ganon's weight doesn't help him because he still has poor survivability in all directions except up. This is a problem for many heavyweights; these characters tend to have poor recoveries and jumps, which are the things that really count in making a character hard to kill. Ganon's issues in this area have been well-documented since Melee. His recovery is garbage; we knew it, and the developers knew it. Enter Wizard's Dropkick. Suddenly, Ganon can cover horizontal distances decently, helping him recover and actually use his weight to his advantage (to say nothing of what Dropkick does for the rest of Ganon's game). But the developers don't want to alienate character loyalists. This is the reason that Ganon hasn't been revamped in the first place. So, rather than having to choose between keeping Wizard's Foot or changing it to Dropkick, the customs system lets us have it both ways. If you like pain, you can still play original Ganon, who is defaulted for familiarity. If you like pain slightly less, you can play Ganon with recovery options (I've gone this whole paragraph without mentioning Dark Fists, another clear upgrade to an abysmal default). But you can't play Custom Ganon in tournaments, so only the conservative default design is visible.
There is a thread specifically for custom talk:
http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/

About the quoted part, the only heavy weight who has major issues recovering, so much that it negates his weight, is Ganon.
http://smashboards.com/threads/recovery-rankings.381244/
All the other heavy weights are somewhere in A-D tier.
Ganon's recovery was intentionally made worse than it was in Brawl because the game is balanced around different modes of play like FFAs.
 

Firefoxx

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I played against a really amazing Marth last night on anthers. He had tons of ridiculous setups, awesome combos and traps and it almost felt like I was playing against brawl marth with how suffocating it was.

We played 11 games and I won 8 of them with my day 1 Fox.

I'm not saying Marth is hopeless, but he's definitely not some hidden high tier.
 

TTTTTsd

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I think even though Ganon's recovery is "worse" than in Brawl it's still much better by proxy of no ledgehogging. If ledgehogging was in this game....good lord, I can't imagine what it'd do to a good handful of characters.

I won't ignore that Ganon's recovery is pretty piss poor though, and it most certainly makes his weight less of a strong point, but I wouldn't say it totally negates his weight. The reason I say this is because a lot of the best kill moves in the meta are very much vertical (from what I can tell) and thankfully Ganon's chunky weight and fall speed do help alleviate dying TOO early, especially with Rage.

Just observations.
 

adom4

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I think even though Ganon's recovery is "worse" than in Brawl it's still much better by proxy of no ledgehogging. If ledgehogging was in this game....good lord, I can't imagine what it'd do to a good handful of characters.

I won't ignore that Ganon's recovery is pretty piss poor though, and it most certainly makes his weight less of a strong point, but I wouldn't say it totally negates his weight. The reason I say this is because a lot of the best kill moves in the meta are very much vertical (from what I can tell) and thankfully Ganon's chunky weight and fall speed do help alleviate dying TOO early, especially with Rage.

Just observations.
It's better than Brawl also because you can't act right out of the grab anymore (Seriously Brawl dark dive might be the worst special in the entire series).
Also side-B recovery helps Ganon somewhat because it's super scary to challenge for obvious reasons.
 

TTTTTsd

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It's better than Brawl also because you can't act right out of the grab anymore (Seriously Brawl dark dive might be the worst special in the entire series).
Also side-B recovery helps Ganon somewhat because it's super scary to challenge for obvious reasons.
Yeah it's largely mechanics and the metagame that makes it much better. No ledgehogging REALLY helps and the fact that a lot of kills are vertical and that gimping is not as common is also fairly favourable for the dark lord himself I wager.
 

LancerStaff

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On the subject of gatekeeper characters, who do Pit and Pacman have as "gatekeeper" characters? Just about every borderline high tier canidate has one. Villager/Ness have Rosa, MM/Falcon/Olimar/Greninja have Sheik, DK has ZSS, etc. I can't think of who even serves that purpose for those two characters.
Ask five different Pits and you'll get five different answers... You could probably ask the five best Pits in the world and get different answers. I've heard Sheik, Sonic, ZSS, Captain Falcon (although I hear he isn't a tournament threat anymore but eh) the most out of the more common characters with a little bit of Lucario. None of these are a major disadvantage however, so saying he has a strict gatekeeper might be inaccurate. It's probably more that Pit doesn't quite have a strong enough spread compared to the top tiers. Or at least it's perceived that way... We really don't have enough good players to get a grip on what our matchups are like at a high level.

So, uh... I guess he's not played because he's not played.
 

GeneralLedge

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A little late, but regarding Palutena's Light Weight, duly note that the platform bug (at least as far as I'm aware) was fixed.

Has there been public interpretation as to how this bugfix affects the game plan? I imagine it's still a viable choice in customs, but what people seem to fail to recognize is you get a solid downtime after the move expires where Palutena is extremely vulnerable.

Yet, I don't see this mentioned. Did we forget? Was the 'bugfix' false?
 

Ffamran

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Ok first off her frame data is not "wicked good." Here I cover her slow frame data and you should probably read it. Her f-tilt hit box comes out frame 17. That is the slowest f-tilt in the entire game, and she can not act of her f-tilt for 68 frames. So her "wicked good" frame data consist of the laggiest f-tilt in the entire game in both starting hit box and FAF. She has the 4th slowest reflector at 56 frames of lag and that reflector has the lowest multiplier of x1.17. Her counter which is just god awful has the second most recovery frames; 75, an average amount of counter frames; 22, and her counter doesn't even come out the fastest. It's on the lower end of how fast counters come out at 9 frames. So if "wicked good" describes this frame data how should I describe ZSS, Rosa, Sheik, Mairo and almost anyone else on the cast?
Her aerials are good yes, but basically every single grounded attack of hers except jab and down tilt have excessive amount of endlag. Thus having bad frame data. And her design philosophy was being able to change the way she plays through custom moves in the first place anyways.

From her trophy description:

"In Kid Icarus: Uprising, the goddess of light uses telepathy to communicate and grants miracles to support Pit on his adventure. In Smash Bros., she has special moves like Warp and Heavenly Light at her disposal. She's very adaptable—you can customize her into a long- or close-range fighter!"
And this is why I made that recovery chart. :awesome:

All of Pally's moves like everyone's outside of some outliers like Samus's pivot grab, Greninja's st. grab, or Peach's Dair have similar recovery frames. The only differences? Startup, active frames, total frames, hitbox placement, and hitbox properties. For instance, Pally's Dtilt has only 15 frames of recovery, but takes 14 frames to start. Marth's Dtilt is twice as fast, but also has 15 frames of recovery. Why? Differing active frames; Pally's is active for 11 frames to Marth's 2. Her Utilt only has 26 recovery frames which is the same as Ike's Utilt recovery. With 10 frames of startup and 32 active frames, lowered hurtbox, and that it won't recoil, it's a good move similar to Ike's frame 11-21, 11 active Utilt.

There are some issues with Palutena that I'd like to discuss, but I'm mobile, so yeah...

Edit: Just noting that yes, she and others may have high total frames, but could you imagine what would happen if Pally's Dtilt was only active for even 5 frames? She'd end up with higher recovery. It wouldn't be that bad as 20 recovery frames for Dtilt isn't uncommon, but how about Utilt with only 11 active frames like Ike? Welcome to the land of 47 frames of recovery.
 
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Nu~

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On the subject of gatekeeper characters, who do Pit and Pacman have as "gatekeeper" characters? Just about every borderline high tier canidate has one. Villager/Ness have Rosa, MM/Falcon/Olimar/Greninja have Sheik, DK has ZSS, etc. I can't think of who even serves that purpose for those two characters.
We used to believe it was sheik, but then abadango shattered that belief when he smoked both rain and shu. Sheik's inability to launch the hydrant safely is very good for us.

ZSS is thought to be either even or slightly disadvantageous, although the only footage we have of pacman vs zss is Dee who appears to have absolutely no trouble in the MU...http://youtu.be/uE7QtHOwOt8

But for the longest time, we all assumed that it was rosa because of gravitational pull. That was until we started to wake up and realize how punishable the move is. If rosa even attempts to GP in mid range, we get a free fruit in the hand + punish. It helps that we are the only character that keeps her honest in her advantage state because hydrant impales her uair. @Sinji and @PEPESPAIN who are both avid tourney goers (Sinji in particular rarely places lower than top 8 in every nebulous) both believe that the Rosa matchup is in our favor since we have many ways of dealing with luma, (DA, dair, orange, and hydrant) she doesn't pose that much of a threat to us in advantage, and we can rush her down pretty effectively due to her difficulty to escape our fruit combos/KO confirms. Fair to key is a kill confirm on her at % as low as 90 due to her weight and lack of combo breaking attacks. The only things that rosa has on us are more range and an ability to nullify our long range game.

So as of now, I'm not sure pacman has a "gatekeeper" so to speak. He's a high tier for sure, but what keeps him out of top 15, yet within top 20, is the fact that the only characters he can invalidate are mid tiers and luigi. He goes even with most top tiers and either loses slightly or wins slightly to the rest high/top tier.

His awful grab and lack of immediate pressure (pacman needs time to set up) keep him honest.
 
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Cyclone_

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Care to explain instead of ****post?
I have been a marth main since the 3ds version came out. He can not do anything that you say. Ill go in things wrong
1. Marth can't combo anything off down throw except for up air off 0% on heavy characters he can't hit dancing blade in the air because that move goes together as well as samus' jab.
2. Who in the world says that marth's fsmash is bad. He can kill at 40% from the side of the stage that move is so easy to hit literally like what the hell.
3. Yes fsmash is super important because it one of his 4 kill moves, and one of his jank not so combo moves (jab one to fsmash)
4. He is not high tier. He has so much end lag. Try and use down air near the bottom of the stage. you are not coming back. The spike is hard to hit for some people and it sucks as a move in itself. shield breaker isnt safe on shield because it has so much endlag. And because of the most recent nerf on it it can break shields any more they took one of the not many things marth has at all.

Marth stays in low tier end of F***ING story
 

LancerStaff

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It helps that we are the only character that keeps her honest in her advantage state because hydrant impales her uair.
Actually, I've been meaning to ask... I've cancelled out the hydrant's falling hitbox with Pit's Uair multiple times, and it'd only ever hit once for like 2% or 1.777% or something silly. You think it's a property of the hydrant or Pit's Uair?
 

David Viran

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Actually, I've been meaning to ask... I've cancelled out the hydrant's falling hitbox with Pit's Uair multiple times, and it'd only ever hit once for like 2% or 1.777% or something silly. You think it's a property of the hydrant or Pit's Uair?
I know zss's uair does the same thing.
 

Nu~

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I know zss's uair does the same thing.
Actually, I've been meaning to ask... I've cancelled out the hydrant's falling hitbox with Pit's Uair multiple times, and it'd only ever hit once for like 2% or 1.777% or something silly. You think it's a property of the hydrant or Pit's Uair?
Any uair can cancel out the falling hydrant hitbox except for mega man and rosa's.

It's strange, and I don't know why it happens.

It's why pacman can't drop hydrants as liberally as most people believe when trying to return to nuetral from the air.

You want to try and be unpredictable with your hydrant drop, return to the ground with dair drive (our dair increases the speed of our fastfall), or if all else fails, retreat to the ledge with side B.
 

Vipermoon

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Any uair can cancel out the falling hydrant hitbox except for mega man and rosa's.

It's strange, and I don't know why it happens.

It's why pacman can't drop hydrants as liberally as most people believe when trying to return to nuetral from the air.

You want to try and be unpredictable with your hydrant drop, return to the ground with dair drive (our dair increases the speed of our fastfall), or if all else fails, retreat to the ledge with side B.
I'm going to guess that anything that isn't transcendent priority will cancel the hydrant (aka clash with it).
 

Man Li Gi

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Can someone legitimately tell me why customs aren't allowed anymore. I know Thinkamans post using To Kill a Mockingbird should have sufficed, but I'm extremely befuddled on how we came to the conclusion that customs, in which help worse characters, can't be used. The people that went far in EVO went far because they had fundamentals. Look, I don't even use them cuz I don't practice them (I actually think that's the real reason they ain't allowed, there really isn't a stable outlet for people to practice them and then when they lose to them, they blame it on jank instead of not preparing for it), but if there is something that in the game that doesn't destroy the game, and simultaneously makes characters, better why not use it? @Dabuz said he essays on how he believes customs shouldn't be allowed, but I actually want to see these essays. Information is something that I don't think people should withhold.

I feel like people used their misinformed ideas and lack of practice to make a serious stab in the meta. The lack of customs stifles characters that would like them. Yes, some top tiers got better moves...kinda, and some characters like Robin and Jiggs just gets unlucky with customs, but the vast majority got better with them. Oh well, maybe I'm just crazy in wanting some characters to be on the most optimal playing field.
 

Rizen

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Can someone legitimately tell me why customs aren't allowed anymore. I know Thinkamans post using To Kill a Mockingbird should have sufficed, but I'm extremely befuddled on how we came to the conclusion that customs, in which help worse characters, can't be used. The people that went far in EVO went far because they had fundamentals. Look, I don't even use them cuz I don't practice them (I actually think that's the real reason they ain't allowed, there really isn't a stable outlet for people to practice them and then when they lose to them, they blame it on jank instead of not preparing for it), but if there is something that in the game that doesn't destroy the game, and simultaneously makes characters, better why not use it? @Dabuz said he essays on how he believes customs shouldn't be allowed, but I actually want to see these essays. Information is something that I don't think people should withhold.

I feel like people used their misinformed ideas and lack of practice to make a serious stab in the meta. The lack of customs stifles characters that would like them. Yes, some top tiers got better moves...kinda, and some characters like Robin and Jiggs just gets unlucky with customs, but the vast majority got better with them. Oh well, maybe I'm just crazy in wanting some characters to be on the most optimal playing field.
edit Kaladin Kaladin too.
This is getting into the red topic of ruleset preference discussion. Please use the customs thread instead.
http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/

PS anti-custom people aren't "misinformed".
 
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Kaladin

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I've posted my rant before, many moons ago, so I'll save everyone the pain. No anti-customs argument is logically sound. They simply don't exist, outside of personal preference. Anti-custom people are just trying to get their johns written into the rules.
 

Nobie

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Can someone legitimately tell me why customs aren't allowed anymore. I know Thinkamans post using To Kill a Mockingbird should have sufficed, but I'm extremely befuddled on how we came to the conclusion that customs, in which help worse characters, can't be used. The people that went far in EVO went far because they had fundamentals. Look, I don't even use them cuz I don't practice them (I actually think that's the real reason they ain't allowed, there really isn't a stable outlet for people to practice them and then when they lose to them, they blame it on jank instead of not preparing for it), but if there is something that in the game that doesn't destroy the game, and simultaneously makes characters, better why not use it? @Dabuz said he essays on how he believes customs shouldn't be allowed, but I actually want to see these essays. Information is something that I don't think people should withhold.

I feel like people used their misinformed ideas and lack of practice to make a serious stab in the meta. The lack of customs stifles characters that would like them. Yes, some top tiers got better moves...kinda, and some characters like Robin and Jiggs just gets unlucky with customs, but the vast majority got better with them. Oh well, maybe I'm just crazy in wanting some characters to be on the most optimal playing field.
I think it all just came down to people seeing them as too much of a pain to implement. Consider that it took an entire movement led by @Amazing Ampharos to create a standardized 10 movesets over the course of months, which were then complained about as being outdated by the time EVO rolled around. Then there's the necessity of having to unlock customs in the first place, or find someone with a 3DS with the standard sets, and who knows how many other steps. At a tournament you have to either have pre-set moves, allow people to input them manually, or set them up using a 3DS (which would require people to get 3DS's if they didn't have one).

I really think what people want, both players and organizers, is a way to get people to actually play as quickly as possible. This is why some people still FG sometimes when Anther's Ladder exists (guilty of this), because you go beep, boop, and now you're fighting someone instead of having to challenge them and get a friend code etc.

Also, I know this isn't a fair argument either, but as a Mewtwo I do kind of feel shafted by my character having no Custom moves. In a customs environment, even Mewtwo's decent matchups potentially can cherry pick just the right moves to make life hell, and Mewtwo gets to... do nothing about it.

Edit: if you could just purchase all custom moves for like $5 then we'd see a lot more customs tournaments.
 
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LancerStaff

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Can someone legitimately tell me why customs aren't allowed anymore. I know Thinkamans post using To Kill a Mockingbird should have sufficed, but I'm extremely befuddled on how we came to the conclusion that customs, in which help worse characters, can't be used. The people that went far in EVO went far because they had fundamentals. Look, I don't even use them cuz I don't practice them (I actually think that's the real reason they ain't allowed, there really isn't a stable outlet for people to practice them and then when they lose to them, they blame it on jank instead of not preparing for it), but if there is something that in the game that doesn't destroy the game, and simultaneously makes characters, better why not use it? @Dabuz said he essays on how he believes customs shouldn't be allowed, but I actually want to see these essays. Information is something that I don't think people should withhold.

I feel like people used their misinformed ideas and lack of practice to make a serious stab in the meta. The lack of customs stifles characters that would like them. Yes, some top tiers got better moves...kinda, and some characters like Robin and Jiggs just gets unlucky with customs, but the vast majority got better with them. Oh well, maybe I'm just crazy in wanting some characters to be on the most optimal playing field.
Comes down to two things really. First, not every character becomes more viable. Zelda, Puff, Mac, Falco?, Junior, and the DLC characters (3/4 of which are underwhelming at best) get nothing or close to it out of the unviable characters. So then you have a division right there... I don't see supporters of any of these characters getting behind customs.

Second, you get more of the "fighting moves and not characters" stuff that people hate. Balance be dammed, if the game isn't fun then people won't play it. Okay, we have this in the base game already... But more ain't going to fix it. People would rather have the likes of Sheik and Sonic be unviable then have their strong tools, but there's no convenient off button for that.
 

Man Li Gi

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edit Kaladin Kaladin too.
This is getting into the red topic of ruleset preference discussion. Please use the customs thread instead.
http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/

PS anti-custom people aren't "misinformed".
I was in that thread early on when people were all saying yes to customs. I dunno when the sentiment changed, but it did. Anti customs aren't all misinformed but feel kinda inconsistent. Ive seen the jank term be brought out, but jank is what a lot of characters are with or without customs.
Nobie Nobie yeah, that's the main anti-custom argument peeps can bring out cuz its true and there's nothing I can't really counter it. That's just bad game planning, but that shouldn't be end of the argument and stop it from being used.
 

Zonez

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Edit: if you could just purchase all custom moves for like $5 then we'd see a lot more customs tournaments.
Please don't suggest microtransactions as an alternative to a bad system.
 
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