Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[thehard]

I honestly think Kirby could be a bottom 5 contender just because of his slow ground and air speed. The current meta is not kind to him. Which isn't to say he's bad, just relatively.

I've also secretly been thinking Mac and Jiggs are bottom 2, the former because of pee-poor disadvantage and the latter because of early vertical deaths, 2-stock, lack of threatening advantage, etc. Nothing new here, I'm just starting to realize how crippling these flaws are and will continue to be. Mac can still do work obviously but Jiggs seems seriously hopeless...

I think Samus is "good". Her moveset is comprehensive, just a little, say, underwhelming? 1.1.1 buffs have made it that much better.

 

[wpwood]

I think it's pretty clear Palutena was designed around customs, and by not letting her carry out her design philosophy the 'weight' attached to Palutena is much greater than the 'weight' attached to any other character in the roster. We are deliberately attaching more 'weight' to a character who's tools we allow her to use do little in making the 'weight' any lighter or easier on her.

On a note of the 'weight' idea, more characters are viable in doubles because they have a character to help carry their 'weight' and they don't need to carry it on their own.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Kirby having no answer to back roll is a major issue for him, Upper Cutter or no. Essentially as you said, camping makes him cry.

If you really want to stretch it, Final Cutter does have that shockwave. (That counts as an energy projectile because reasons so Rosalina, Villager, Ness, G&W, Fox, etc. can all absorb/catch/reflect it.) But I highly doubt that would actually work.

In what matchups can Kirby reasonably expect to copy the opponent's neutral special?

 

[DblCrest]

Either I'm rusty with Di or Mario is a bit of a nightmare to deal with if he relies on down throw into Uptilts combos.
Had a small tournament and not only was the guy I was playing with hard to kill but I went straight from 0 -50 on that combo alone.

Thought's on Mario?
I've found him a bit underwhelming since the Wii U and pocket Smash released but christ... this might be the best he's ever been. I'm not sure whether I was just outplayed or the character just has the right tools to crush you if you're not ready for him.

ParanoidDrone
I think you set up for an inhale on the more larger characters using an uptilt at the lower percentages.
Might have been a video showing it. I look about...

 

[meleebrawler]

I honestly think Kirby could be a bottom 5 contender just because of his slow ground and air speed. The current meta is not kind to him. Which isn't to say he's bad, just relatively.

I've also secretly been thinking Mac and Jiggs are bottom 2, the former because of pee-poor disadvantage and the latter because of early vertical deaths, 2-stock, lack of threatening advantage, etc. Nothing new here, I'm just starting to realize how crippling these flaws are and will continue to be. Mac can still do work obviously but Jiggs seems seriously hopeless...

I think Samus is "good". Her moveset is comprehensive, just a little, say, underwhelming? 1.1.1 buffs have made it that much better.

Mewtwo's pretty much in the same boat as Samus, his tools are solid and give him a functional gameplan (discourage camping with reflector + a super powerful projectile then deflect or punish attempts to get in with spacing, and he has mobility as backup).
And while people tend to deride the buffs he actually got for not resolving the main reasons he's held back or fixing the "obvious hitbox issues", the dsmash and fthrow buffs further solidify his defensive game, as does the added shieldstun.

To complete your bottom 5 suggestions Zelda has a gameplan that's just way too hard and unsustainable at top levels, with too little tools to successfully implement it.

 

[Tri Knight]

This is a two way street. One could say to non-custom Palutenas "git gud".

Customs aren't for this thread. My feelings about Palutena are "somebody has to be low tier". SSB4 is a very well balanced game and even Palutena has things going for her. People need to stop complaining and trying to change the rules. Just accept that not all characters are created equal but the game has good balance regardless.
I mean I've played a consistently mediocre at best character in every smash game- Link. One thing you learn when maining a low tier is that you'll be at a disadvantage. Link veterans know that but play him because we like his style so well and "he's freaking Link". He does get his butt handed to him by Sheik, Fox, ZSS and some other characters but that's the price I pay for, well, not maining Sheik, lol.

Exactly the way I think. Link's not amazing. He's definitely good in this game compared to Brawl but to use anyone not in top 5 means you'll probably be getting bodied by Shiek anyway lol

 

[Zelder]

Either I'm rusty with Di or Mario is a bit of a nightmare to deal with if he relies on down throw into Uptilts combos.
Had a small tournament and not only was the guy I was playing with hard to kill but I went straight from 0 -50 on that combo alone.

Thought's on Mario?
I've found him a bit underwhelming since the Wii U and pocket Smash released but christ... this might be the best he's ever been. I'm not sure whether I was just outplayed or the character just has the right tools to crush you if you're not ready for him.

ParanoidDrone
I think you set up for an inhale on the more larger characters using an uptilt at the lower percentages.
Might have been a video showing it. I look about...

I don't know if you've just awoken from a terrible coma, but Mario is an incredibly solid character, who has the power to hang in the top 8s of nationals/internationals. His powerful air speed, damage racking capabilities, and super fast buttons make him quite good. Also, you can generally do 30 upsmashes in the space of time it takes your opponent to blink.

 

[wpwood]

Also, you can generally do 30 upsmashes in the space of time it takes your opponent to blink.

How to play Mairo online: down smash > spot dodge > down smash. Throw in up smash every so often and that's average Mairo you will find online.

 

[LiteralGrill]

ParanoidDrone
I think you set up for an inhale on the more larger characters using an uptilt at the lower percentages.
Might have been a video showing it. I look about...

You might have been thinking of this:

 

[FullMoon]

I know we want to stop custom talk but this here is more about Ryu

And customs adds a bunch of windbox moves, and I'd imagine you know how effective windboxes are against Ryu.

I don't think windboxes are particularly powerful against Ryu? Shoryuken goes up pretty fast and customs or not, most windboxes won't be hitting him while he's below the ledge, the only exception being Hydro Pump since it's the only windbox that can be aimed down IIRC.

I suppose you can push him away when he uses Tatsu, but you're going to push him up a lot too which doesn't really do too much to stop him from getting back on stage, other than the fact that he can't use Tatsu twice in the air if I'm right.

 

[wpwood]

I know we want to stop custom talk but this here is more about Ryu



I don't think windboxes are particularly powerful against Ryu? Shoryuken goes up pretty fast and customs or not, most windboxes won't be hitting him while he's below the ledge, the only exception being Hydro Pump since it's the only windbox that can be aimed down IIRC.

I suppose you can push him away when he uses Tatsu, but you're going to push him up a lot too which doesn't really do too much to stop him from getting back on stage, other than the fact that he can't use Tatsu twice in the air if I'm right.

He can't use Tatsu again until her gets hit.

 

[Thinkaman]

I handed out some 0-point warnings for off-topic discussion. This is the place to discuss character performance and viability, not rulesets. There's a surprisingly clear line between discussing the effects of rulesets and advocacy/arguing, so you are all smart enough to figure it out.

Talking about the matchup and viability implications of customs is fine--it's borderline pointless to discuss Palutena and Duck Hunt otherwise. That's on-topic. Sitting around arguing about how scrubby the Smash community is not.

If someone engages in an off-topic tangent, simply don't take the bait and report it if it's a problem. You have 55 characters and 1485 matchups to talk about, so I'm sure one of them is bound to be worth discussing.

----------

For example, I am starting to suspect that Doc is effective against Villager. If you are like me, you really underestimated SH cape on doc. Nairo's matches against ESAM showcased the nullifying factor this brings against normally safe projectile harass, and I predict Villager is affected similarly.

What's more, cape is one of the only ways to plausibly gimp Villager's recovery--as long as you can indeed land the hit, it is pretty much death as far as I can tell. (And I find it significantly easier to hit people with Doc's falling cape than Mario's falling one.)

I don't have a good Villager player handy to test this; am I crazy?

 

[|RK|]

If you really want to stretch it, Final Cutter does have that shockwave. (That counts as an energy projectile because reasons so Rosalina, Villager, Ness, G&W, Fox, etc. can all absorb/catch/reflect it.) But I highly doubt that would actually work.

In what matchups can Kirby reasonably expect to copy the opponent's neutral special?

Any of em if you can get sourspot utilt (or dair in some cases). Works like grab in a lot of situations, but with less mobility.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

KuroganeHammer
Okay, Ness and Lucas's attacks aren't reflectors, they are absorption attacks. They can get hit by physical projectiles and don't even reflect other projectiles like Bombs or PK Flash.



Okay, if it's not a bad move, how come it deals the abysmal damage and knockback and is intrinsically useless for close combat. The move is bad; it has half a second of ending lag, doesn't even protect Fox from physical attacks and is negligible against opponents who don't even have projectiles. If you even use it around Captain Falcon, you're going to lose a stock, for example. Captain Falcon has absolutely no projectile moves and has incredibly fast speed and great power, making Fox's Reflector unusable against Falcon.

And you say the move's purpose is to stall. Maybe it could be used for that, but it'd be very boring to see Fox and Link hold their attacks forever if they went against each other if you think about it. The attack's only good for reflecting projectiles and that's really it.



Actually, it has to do with the angle that ROB's arms are at. If ROB's arms are at a straight or slightly up and down, it's usable as a reflector. If at highest or lowest, the attack won't reflect well at all and ROB will likely get hit.

Their forward smash attacks are reflectors.

@DumberChild nah reflect frames are just really hard to get lol

 

[Radical Larry]

Their forward smash attacks are reflectors.

@DumberChild nah reflect frames are just really hard to get lol

Someone already corrected me on that.
But hey, when do you think you'll get Mewtwo's reflection frames?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yo. MikeKirby recently got 5th at KTAR XIV using Kirby alone. He took Nairo to game 3, and at other tournies has beaten top players like Vinnie and Larry Lur using only Kirby. He's also placed pretty well across the board with Kirby in his region. And on stream, Mr.R stated that he believes Kirby is high tier.

Thoughts on this?

Kirby is the second most underrated character in the game IMO, I think he's only considered bad because Mikekirby doesn't go to many tournaments. I asked him if he was going to Apex, and je said he would, because it's tristate, and he can't afford to fly to tourneys and only goes to tourney's in tristate because of this (Which is why we rarely see him). Really hyped to see him at Apex though.

 

[Y2Kay]

I honestly think Kirby could be a bottom 5 contender just because of his slow ground and air speed. The current meta is not kind to him. Which isn't to say he's bad, just relatively.

I'm sorry, but Kirby's matchup spread is to good for him to be bottom 5. I know some Kirby mains have sadi his MUs against is a slightly worse than we say, but having other nice MUs such as is is fricking great right now (especially and ). Being slow () and being easy to camp () has not stopped a character from doing well. none of these characters had both but you get my point. Also, being hard to combo AND have great combos yourself is a pretty great and rare combo in this game. His weaknesses are not as overwhelming as you think. You'll need a secondary to deal with zoner / campers
to do well, but bottom 5 is really pushing it if you ask me.

On another note, I just realized how great of a combination + are. Kirby does well in the MUs Mew2 particularly suck at, while Mewtwo has an excellent anti zoning game and mobility to cover campers for Kirby. They're both easy to kill tho. Just something to think about.....

Kirby is the second most underrated character in the game IMO, I think he's only considered bad because Mikekirby doesn't go to many tournaments. I asked him if he was going to Apex, and je said he would, because it's tristate, and he can't afford to fly to tourneys and only goes to tourney's in tristate because of this (Which is why we rarely see him). Really hyped to see him at Apex though.

I'm interested in hearing who's first on your list (?)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby is the second most underrated character in the game IMO, I think he's only considered bad because Mikekirby doesn't go to many tournaments. I asked him if he was going to Apex, and je said he would, because it's tristate, and he can't afford to fly to tourneys and only goes to tourney's in tristate because of this (Which is why we rarely see him). Really hyped to see him at Apex though.

Kirby's MUs are a pain. Mike beat Larry's Fox and ZSS, which are both relatively even MUs, but in losers finals when Larry pulled out Mario (bad matchup) Mike got like 3-1'd. His wins against Vinnie are customs also, he has an 0-3 record against Vinnie no customs.

I'm sorry, but Kirby's matchup spread is to good for him to be bottom 5. I know some Kirby mains have sadi his MUs against is a slightly worse than we say, but having other nice MUs such as is is fricking great right now (especially and ). Being slow () and being easy to camp () has not stopped a character from doing well. none of these characters had both but you get my point. Also, being hard to combo AND have great combos yourself is a pretty great and rare combo in this game. His weaknesses are not as overwhelming as you think. You'll need a secondary to deal with zoner / campers
to do well, but bottom 5 is really pushing it if you ask me.

On another note, I just realized how great of a combination + are. Kirby does well in the MUs Mew2 particularly suck at, while Mewtwo has an excellent anti zoning game and mobility to cover campers for Kirby. They're both easy to kill tho. Just something to think about.....

I'm interested in hearing who's first on your list (?)

We have a 40:60(ish) with sheik, and relatively even MUs with Fox, Falcon, and ZSS, but that doesn't stop his huge weakness in being one of the easiest characters to counterpick in the game, due to him having sooooo many bad MUs. Luigi and Falcon can be camped out, and Villager and Rosa are slow, but they have really good things going for them while Kirby doesn't. Luigi has better combos (and before kill combos), falcon has insane speed, villager has an amazing all-around game, and rosa has luma. Kirby doesn't have any of that (good combos only on fastfallers and decent edge-guarding).

 

[Kaladin]

We have a 40:60(ish) with sheik, and relatively even MUs with Fox, Falcon, and ZSS, but that doesn't stop his huge weakness in being one of the easiest characters to counterpick in the game, due to him having sooooo many bad MUs.

...Yes, it actually kinda does. That's the definition of a good character that requires a secondary. Not bottom 5.

 

[Y2Kay]

We have a 40:60(ish) with sheik, and relatively even MUs with Fox, Falcon, and ZSS, but that doesn't stop his huge weakness in being one of the easiest characters to counterpick in the game, due to him having sooooo many bad MUs.

Do you know how many low tiers wish they had even MUs with Fox, Falcon, and ZSS tho? Basically all of them. The campers/zoners ie: that exploit and abuse kirby aren't really common anyhow.
Your pretty pessimistic for a Kirby main......

 

[thehard]

I guess I'll pull the "name 5 characters worse than Kirby" card then.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm sorry, but Kirby's matchup spread is to good for him to be bottom 5. I know some Kirby mains have sadi his MUs against is a slightly worse than we say, but having other nice MUs such as is is fricking great right now (especially and ). Being slow () and being easy to camp () has not stopped a character from doing well. none of these characters had both but you get my point. Also, being hard to combo AND have great combos yourself is a pretty great and rare combo in this game. His weaknesses are not as overwhelming as you think. You'll need a secondary to deal with zoner / campers
to do well, but bottom 5 is really pushing it if you ask me.

On another note, I just realized how great of a combination + are. Kirby does well in the MUs Mew2 particularly suck at, while Mewtwo has an excellent anti zoning game and mobility to cover campers for Kirby. They're both easy to kill tho. Just something to think about.....

I'm interested in hearing who's first on your list (?)

First on my list is Jigglypuff

I guess I'll pull the "name 5 characters worse than Kirby" card then.

Okay then...

(No customs)(No Customs)(All of them, Mii Brawler is better with customs on)

He is better than more characters too customs on, but I havn't made a tier list for that sooo......

 

[Y2Kay]

I guess I'll pull the "name 5 characters worse than Kirby" card then.

I'm not in the business of hurting feelings but......

Spoiler: Chars. (probably) worse than Kirby

maybe

this is gonna derail into an argument with my luck. This is a rough list of my impressions. Not so sure about

 

[Trifroze]

I really don't know how Kirby has a decent MU with ZSS when the weak hits of up b kill Kirby at 40-50% even on stages like FD and even when ZSS doesn't have rage. Her bnb is much more lethal to Kirby than it is for the likes of DK and ROB because at least those two don't outright die to it except at the ledge and with platform shenanigans. It doesn't even need to connect halfway properly on Kirby (it's actually better if it doesn't) and he shoots off the top.

 

[Y2Kay]

I really don't know how Kirby has a decent MU with ZSS when the weak hits of up b kill Kirby at 40-50% even on stages like FD and even when ZSS doesn't have rage. Her bnb is much more lethal to Kirby than it is for the likes of DK and ROB because at least those two don't outright die to it except at the ledge and with platform shenanigans. It doesn't even need to connect halfway properly on Kirby (it's actually better if it doesn't) and he shoots off the top.

from the user TimG57867 :

From experience, I'd say that Kirby certainly has the advantage in this matchup. Of course many think it's silly to say that being able to crouch under moves is a good justification for winning a matchup. But look how much of her kit gets negated by such a simple maneuver. More of her kit becomes useless when we crouch than Captain Falcon's which is saying something. When crouching, her Grab, Stun Gun, N-Air, Dash Attack, Jab, F-Smash, etc all go right over us. The stun gun is an especially big one as it means that we have safe way to avoid her stun gun without having to use our shield and risk getting grabbed which is the last thing you want when facing ZSS
And just like Sheik, we have more going for us here than simply being able to duck under half her arsenal. We happen to be light and small: the combination ZSS hates fighting most. Because we're light, she has a tougher time comboing us than most characters, and because we're small, it's that much easier for us to slip out of her Up-Air chains and DI out of her killer Up B. And on the flip side, we can juggle her pretty well as she's a fast faller. For instance, if she misses a dash grab on us in our crouch position, could use D-Tilt, grab, Up Tilt, to get some nasty combos started on her which have become more potent than ever thanks to the buff to our F-Throw. Speaking of buffs, our Inhale is now a lot more practical in this matchup. It's easier for us to catch an approach from her on reaction and we can use Up-Air and Up Tilt to set up into it. And the stun is certainly handy to have. It's tricky to use effectively due to the charge time and ZSS's nimbleness, but the gun makes the neutral easier for us, gives us a more adequate approach, and gives a kill setup tool into a smash if we get it right. I personally suggest you get the power if you can. Another thing to add, is that just like Sheik, we generally have more kill power than her, especially in our smashes. Although she packs much more oomph in her individual attacks than Sheik does.

Edit: add another paragraph of info from the same user.

 

[thehard]

I'm not in the business of hurting feelings but......

Spoiler: Chars. (probably) worse than Kirby

this is gonna derail into an argument with my luck. This is a rough list of my impressions. Not so sure about

Nah, I asked that to spur discussion. Overwhelming main pride has no place within these walls, so you shouldn't offend anyone with that list.

Edit: I hate forgetting how many characters are in this game lol

 

[Ghostbone]

Little mac can't be bad when he has one of the best neutrals in the game and has landing traps every other character dreams about, and kill confirms at 90 off a frame 3 poke that's safe on shield.

His recovery isn't THAT bad. It's the worst in the game but smash 4 recoveries are ridiculous in general, and little mac's frame 1 invincible up-b off of the second best air-dodge in the game still counts as good as long as he's actually in range of the ledge.

 

[thehard]

Mac is still hard for me to talk about. I rate him low because he's inconsistent, but he's also better than some characters I'd rate above him? Does that make sense? I think he has no staying power, basically. Optimized gameplans will hurt him bad.

 

[Kaladin]

I guess I'll pull the "name 5 characters worse than Kirby" card then.

 

[Y2Kay]

Little mac can't be bad when he has one of the best neutrals in the game and has landing traps every other character dreams about, and kill confirms at 90 off a frame 3 poke that's safe on shield.

His recovery isn't THAT bad. It's the worst in the game but smash 4 recoveries are ridiculous in general, and little mac's frame 1 invincible up-b off of the second best air-dodge in the game still counts as good as long as he's actually in range of the ledge.

can he bad?

definitely.

can he be not THAT bad?

also definitely.

Even by melee terms his recovery sucks. no denying that

 

[Rizen]

Mac kind of has that 'Ganon' thing where he seems to lose but make one mistake vs him and you're in a world of hurt. He's a strange character to talk about because his game plan is so polarized. It seems like he wins strait forward fights but gets cheesed super hard.

 

[Kaladin]

Little mac can't be bad when he has one of the best neutrals in the game and has landing traps every other character dreams about, and kill confirms at 90 off a frame 3 poke that's safe on shield.

YES

THANK YOU

Mac is top/high-mid IMO, same as, like, idk Robin.

 

[Y2Kay]

YES

THANK YOU

Mac is top/high-mid IMO, same as, like, idk Robin.

I can't tell if you're joking. smashboards sure can confuse me sometimes.....

 

[bc1910]

Mac's insane when he gets going. Truly has some incredible moves. Would easily be a top 3 character if the stagelist had like, only walkoffs. But no matter how well he does, he is always highly susceptible to being edgeguarded.

Might sound obvious, but the extremities of that disadvantage have to be seriously considered. Mac's recovery is saved from being total crap by Sm4sh's stupid airdodge but, unless he can immediately side B to the ledge, every time he goes offstage there is a 50/50 chance he will die.

You Bair him immediately or wait for the airdodge/counter. It really is that simple.

Sakurai said it best. "A simple back throw and follow-up is usually enough to KO him."

 

[Trifroze]

from the user TimG57867 :

crouch

The crucial thing to remember about crouching against high hitboxes is that it's a slightly better replacement for shielding and spotdodging. You punish things better if you make the correct defensive read, but risk being hit by a lower hitbox if you make the wrong one.

Kirby's crouch doesn't avoid ZSS' spaced grab or side b, nor does it avoid angled ftilt, dtilt, dsmash or up b, and thus you'll be taking a gamble every time you decide to crouch instead of shielding. Paralyzer gun is a decent option at best and most of the time ZSS doesn't get to utilize it in a match at all, and it's no different for Kirby. The fact that crouching avoids ZSS' important aerials in neutral is a bigger deal, but once Kirby starts consistently utilizing it to the point where it makes a difference, ZSS can start empty hopping and punishing it. Hell, if the opponent really abuses crouch on ZSS' dash-ins, she can hit them out of it with a jc up smash. Of course the match should never get to a point like this, this is just hyperbole for explaining how there exists no world where Kirby can rely on crouching more than a little bit if he wants to get something out of it instead of handicapping himself. If you choose not to take initiatives and just sit in crouch or try to abuse it too much, ZSS still retains safer and more threatening options. Crouching cannot be a matchup determining factor when, even though it's a useful option to have, after a certain point it automatically starts becoming more and more counter-productive the more you rely on it.

Crouch doesn't help Kirby at all in disadvantage either. Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, G&W, Kirby and Rosalina all get decimated by ZSS' bnb because of their light weight, and despite three of them having very low crouches, if they ever actually want to make any initiatives in the matchup they'll be putting themselves vulnerable for any punish from ZSS which often includes being set up into her bnb either by a grab, nair or dsmash, and then dying at 40% off the top. The odds aren't in their favor at all.

Against ZSS, having a low crouch makes her neutral just slightly more awkward. Sheik I don't think could care less about low crouches. You can duck under needles, but I can also shield them with any character.

 

[Kaladin]

I can't tell if you're joking. smashboards sure can confuse me sometimes.....

Not joking. Mac's neutral is top 10, ge is devestating once he gets going, and KO punch is silly. He'd be better than sheik if he had a functional recovery and decent ariels. He's insanely polarized, but he's still good.

 

[Nobie]

As much as it's fun to consider which characters rank over which, I find that there's a certain futility in super precise placings, just because there are so many variables to consider. Is Kirby bottom 5? I don't know, what's the complexion of the tournament is he in? Is it the theoretical typical tournament with like 8 Sheiks in top 32 or something? Would you rather be Kirby or Falco if you're fighting Mega Man? Would you rather be Kirby or Jigglypuff when taking on Rosalina (both are awful)?

Actual question: Kirby's main weakness as has been pointed out by many is that he's bad at approaching. How are Kirby players getting around this, especially given all of the complaints about losing dash shield as a reliable option?

 

[TimG57867]

Never thought I'd see myself posting in a place like this but I noticed that a post I made a while back has been tagged in regards to how Kirby fairs against certain top tiers. Personally, my opinion on the matchup has sided more to being even, but that's irrelevant. I could just make a long theorycraft post about how Kirby fairs against certain characters but instead I think I'll take a different approach and show some demonstrations of how the matches can go at the competitive level.

For :

This video contains intense matches between Triple R and Sinyboo242, the top PR ranked Sheik in Iowa and #1 player of that state overall, and think it serves as a nice example of how things can go when both sides play optimal.
And:

While I feel the Sheik play isn't as sharp here, it does demonstrate some of the more interesting things Kirby can do when given the chance.

And for (and as a bonus):

Larry Lurr may not being a Zero Suit Samus main, but his skill is not to be questioned. And yet each game is able to end pretty close with Kirby demonstrating the tricks he has against. And as a bonus, Larry played Fox game one before switching to ZSS with the reason being that he was fed up with Mike Kirby being able to consistently execute a 0-74% combo on him when they're both at 0.

Also in case no one has said it, Mike Kirby was actually able to take Nairo to game 3 and a very close one going by his words (it sadly, was not recorded but apparently he would have won the set if the last game didn't take place on Battlefield which had wide enough blast zones to help Nairo survive his B-Air.). This is about as high level as this matchup can currently get and I doubt this would have been possible if the Kirby didn't have something to help him hold his own.

Make of this what you will. I am not here to really debate. Just to present a visual perspective.

 

[wpwood]

What match ups does Mac have a definite win over. I don't think there's in any it is just Macs having to be aware of their situation they're in, because all it take is a throw off stage and a good read and he's dead. Like I was messing in the training as Falco and I could just down b edge guard Mac maybe 6-8 times before going to hit him with an aerial. I don't see Mac's ever snatch to the ledge with up b, is that how that move was made to be or what?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

...Yes, it actually kinda does. That's the definition of a good character that requires a secondary. Not bottom 5.

So having 4 even MUs is good? I also didn't mention that Kirby doesn't beat many characters. We lose most of our MUs, and we get bodied by the rest of the top tiers. I agree he isn't bottom 5, but he's still at BEST bottom of low-mid. Hopefully a national kirby main can prove me wrong.

Do you know how many low tiers wish they had even MUs with Fox, Falcon, and ZSS tho? Basically all of them. The campers/zoners ie: that exploit and abuse kirby aren't really common anyhow.
Your pretty pessimistic for a Kirby main......

I'm pessimistic but that's better than being too optimistic by far, I'm adding another side to the argument then the usual "UNDERLOOKED TOP TIER" kirby mains.

Okay then...

(No customs)(No Customs)(All of them, Mii Brawler is better with customs on)

He is better than more characters too customs on, but I havn't made a tier list for that sooo......

For one, Marth, Robin, Falco, and Link are all undoubtedly better than Kirby even if you disagree with my statements.

I think I made people think Kirby is bottom 5, which he isn't, but he's definiteky without a doubt low tier. At best he is low-MUs, but we'll see. His kit literally goes against itself, character that has a good advantage that has sub-par frame data, **** mobility, unsafe aerials, light, and a gimpable recovery. To add on to this, his advantage state is only amazing against fastfallers like Fox, it's decent against mid fighters, and trash against floaties. His good edge-guarding is counteracted by his gimpable recovery too.

To be honest, most of this is theory, I study my MUs and lab a lot, watch matches, study frame data, but the only two kirby players I can watch are Triple R and Mike, who are just regional threats. If I'm completely wrong in two years from now, that's why. For now, with the knowledge I have, my opinion is that he's not good and overrated by a lot of people.

Edit:

As much as it's fun to consider which characters rank over which, I find that there's a certain futility in super precise placings, just because there are so many variables to consider. Is Kirby bottom 5? I don't know, what's the complexion of the tournament is he in? Is it the theoretical typical tournament with like 8 Sheiks in top 32 or something? Would you rather be Kirby or Falco if you're fighting Mega Man? Would you rather be Kirby or Jigglypuff when taking on Rosalina (both are awful)?

Actual question: Kirby's main weakness as has been pointed out by many is that he's bad at approaching. How are Kirby players getting around this, especially given all of the complaints about losing dash shield as a reliable option?

Most Kirby's play patient, wait for their chance. Some okay approach options are RAR u-air, run in and do a retreating f-air, and duck + d-tilt. All aren't reliable because his approach options are garbagio but they are there. Patient and baiting is the way to go.