Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Sinister Slush]

Do people even read KuroganeHammer anymore?

No, cause Smashboards doesn't want us talking about the site-that-shall-not-be-named or else it'll lose traffic/money.
Also I liked Aerodrome better.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Also, this is people's opinions on Ryu matchups

Top tiers (Expect for Sheik and ZSS): Ryu beats them 65:35

Can't say this is true for ones like Mario and Rosa.

 

[LightLV]

If you play fighting games, you play Chess.

Whether you ever sat down in front of a board or not.

I play fighting games and when i sit down at a chess board i'm terrible at chess

the analogies are cute but they're ultimately pointless because smash isn't chess, the comparisons are loose and it's starting to sound pretentious

i know chess is the go-to sport for high IQ but can we please take it down a notch, at least while discussing smash 4 of all potential candidates, the game in the series with the lowest amount of combat depth by far

Kirby can't really 'turtle' with his super weak mobility. You can try to wait for punishable actions but with your low mobility you are the one usually forced to do something.

Yeah Kirby can only turtle if he's winning, more specifically with a stock lead, even the worst projectiles are going to shut that mess down though

 

[wedl!!]

How people should view Ryu's matchups:

Most characters: Ryu wins 60:40 or better

Sheik, ZSS, most swordies, Sonic: Ryu goes even

Megaman: Oh **** you

 

[LightLV]

Speaking of Ryu, can someone please tell me what he's bad at? He seems like the type of character who should decimate most matchups if played solid, but even with people who can pull off SF-tier combos he still gets bent over during high pressure situations.

I've never actually looked into him, but he's the ONLY character in this game where i see random things and go "wow, holy s**t, why don't i see him winning tournaments".

And that includes Greninja, because literally everytime i see/fight him, even in tournaments, i don't know what on earth he's doing and still win, i honestly don't even think i know what his specials do after all this time

 

[Mario766]

You can't turtle with zero projectiles and bad range on your attacks. You'll get pinned down and forced to do an action, then you'll lose because you get outspaced.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I play fighting games and when i sit down at a chess board i'm terrible at chess

the analogies are cute but they're ultimately pointless because smash isn't chess, the comparisons are loose and it's starting to sound pretentious

i know chess is the go-to sport for high IQ but can we please take it down a notch, at least while discussing smash 4 of all potential candidates, the game in the series with the lowest amount of combat depth by far




Yeah Kirby can only turtle if he's winning, more specifically with a stock lead, even the worst projectiles are going to shut that mess down though

We bout to have an argument bruh.

Real talk.

 

[LightLV]

You can't turtle with zero projectiles and bad range on your attacks. You'll get pinned down and forced to do an action, then you'll lose because you get outspaced.

He has a projectile...it's just bad

We bout to have an argument bruh.

Real talk.

You are not about to argue that Smash 4 has more depth than Brawl did, i won't let you, life wont let you

god wont let you

Don't even get me started on Melee, you miiiiiiiight have an argument for 64, since it was a pretty simple game, just unforgiving, but thats as close as you get

 

[Y2Kay]

No, cause Smashboards doesn't want us talking about the site-that-shall-not-be-named or else it'll lose traffic/money.

Ooooh, i don't know what website your talking about. pardon my ignorance. Now I have to know.

 

[Emblem Lord]

He has a projectile...it's just bad



You are not about to argue that Smash 4 has more depth than Brawl did, i won't let you, life wont let you

god wont let you

Don't even get me started on Melee, you miiiiiiiight have an argument for 64, since it was a pretty simple game, just unforgiving, but thats as close as you get

BRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH!!!!!


btw @False just won that GIANT Xanadu over 100 entrants with Ryu. it was like two weeks ago.

Ryus thing is you have to know every possible situation and his answers are very spacing specific. Sometimes just using a different button with him is the difference between him getting bodied in a match or winning 6/4.

Sheik and ZSS have VERY easy mode answers and approach pretty much every match the same.

Ryu simply is not that kind of character. He has to know every match and they are all different. And Ryu DOES crap on chars but those chars are mostly mid tiers and dont matter at high level anyways as they get weeded out early.

 

[Mario766]

Let's be real

Having a projectile on your up-b

May as well not be a projectile at all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Can't say this is true for ones like Mario and Rosa.

im with ya on rosa but mario?

What? Ryu wrecks him button for button and risk vs reward favors ryu in pretty much all neutral scenarios and various spacing zones.

Mario has cape gimps aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand....

yeah. Mario can win but he legit has to outplay ryu and make no deadly mistakes.

 

[LightLV]

BRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH!!!!!

im sorry, its true

btw @False just won that GIANT Xanadu over 100 entrants with Ryu. it was like two weeks ago.

Ryus thing is you have to know every possible situation and his answers are very spacing specific. Sometimes just using a different button with him is the difference between him getting bodied in a match or winning 6/4.

Sheik and ZSS have VERY easy mode answers and approach pretty much every match the same.

Ryu simply is not that kind of character. He has to know every match and they are all different. And Ryu DOES crap on chars but those chars are mostly mid tiers and dont matter at high level anyways as they get weeded out early.

So basically, another victim of Midtier Syndrome.

Let's be real

Having a projectile on your up-b

May as well not be a projectile at all.

U rite

 

[Emblem Lord]

L LightLV Play him for a month. You will not think for a single moment he is mid tier once you get deep into him. And you will feel bad for other chars because of the heinous things you are able to do.


Mid tiers usually have the tools but with fatal flaws and/or lack of reward. That is not Ryu at all.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ryu is midtier? Are you on something? ****ing excellent frame data, disjoints for days, True SRK, and everything else?

Quote EL on this one: Bruh

Smooth Criminal

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You are not about to argue that Smash 4 has more depth than Brawl did, i won't let you, life wont let you

god wont let you

I think you're lost...
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-can-we-save-brawl.355046/

 

[LightLV]

L LightLV Play him for a month. You will not think for a single moment he is mid tier once you get deep into him. And you will feel bad for other chars because of the heinous things you are able to do.


Mid tiers usually have the tools but with fatal flaws and/or lack of reward. That is not Ryu at all.

Oh, Midtier might have been a bad way to place Ryu. Maybe Not-Shiek-or-ZSS-Tier is a better choice.

I should mention, i tend to lump everyone who isn't top 3-4 into one group, everyone who sucks in another, and everyone else as "midtier".

I've fought a pretty decent (not really) ryu, yeah, he's ****ing stupid, which is why i asked lol. He seems to be a character with a >FORREAL< achievable skill ceiling that pushes his game forward.

Not that silly fake one people like to say characters have. (like Marth, *sobs*)

I think you're lost...
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-can-we-save-brawl.355046/

i can pop off like a bajillion games deeper than smash 4 that are dead. Just look at any decent anime fighter that ends up coming over here, or any air dasher that isn't marvel.

Unfortunately depth doesn't really have much to do with how well a game sells, or how strong its scene is. This is like, a defining design point of fighters this generation. Street Fighter, Tekken, Soul Calibur, all making attempts to be easier to play.

(soul calibur mostly sepukku'd by nuking its roster, but yeah)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby can't really 'turtle' with his super weak mobility. You can try to wait for punishable actions but with your low mobility you are the one usually forced to do something.

It's hard for Kirby to turtle because the ideal strategy against Kirby is to turtle. Kirby's best gameplan is turtling, and that's exactly what the opponent should try to do to force an approach.

 

[Ffamran]

Let's be real

Having a projectile on your up-b

May as well not be a projectile at all.

Unless it's done right or done uniquely. So, let's say for example that Ike could aim his Aether at the lowest, 30 degrees above ground. That would be one weird as hell "projectile", but still a projectile nonetheless. Of the characters in Nintendo, I can't think of any character who could have a projectile that's a part of their Up Special that isn't just a projectile like Yoshi's Egg Toss, only happens by certain circumstances like Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost, or is an after effect like Ike and Kirby's shockwaves or Sonic's Spring Jump spring falling down in the air. With the Ike example, you would have to change how Aether works even and he's an existing character so... I can think of someone from another company: Capcom's Nathan Spencer from Bionic Commando who could have a tether that latches on people and or objects like crates and lets him "become" a projectile. At the same time, it's not a "true" projectile in a sense it's a projectile-projectile and more of this is just what freaking happens during the move like Falco's Reflector which is actually a projectile despite not "functioning" like a projectile, but still is, so he can pull off shenanigans against the Pits's Arms.

Y'know now that I think of it, I'm surprised that nobody has a move like the Spencer example... Actually, I think no character can really have that since the grapples of both Sami are just laser-y things, Link can only pull himself forward with large objects and beings which I think also applies to the Rope Snake Lucas has... If one of the Castlevania characters get in, it'd be the same story as Link where they can't really pull themselves in as far as I remember. Now I really want Spencer in the game just to see how that move in action. Funny thing is that Capcom has two other characters who could do this: Nero from Devil May Cry 4 who has his Devil Bringer, his demonic right arm, they could split as a tether grab and a move to pull himself in and Dante from DmC: Devil May Cry who has his Ophion that basically does the same thing as Nero's except it's a grapple rod thing. Meanwhile, the Ike example they could give to both Ike and Kirby with no major repercussion...

 

[Mario766]

It works for Yoshi because his up-b isn't a recovery but just another move in his arsenal, which is unique to Smash. For Kirby, it doesn't do anything for his neutral but is just a recovery move like Ike. It's an afterthought that doesn't get used in Smash for anything because landing with the move is super unsafe.

You still can't turtle with Kirby. His buttons are unsafe and you can't wait out people because your mobility and without range you don't get the punishes you need on the cast that have disjoints or fast options.

Unless you're trying to argue that Kirby is trying to turtle as his main gameplay style but just can't


Which I'll agree with, because Kirby is a flawed character.

 

[meleebrawler]

Would people consider Jigglypuff the better turtler?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

im with ya on rosa but mario?

What? Ryu wrecks him button for button and risk vs reward favors ryu in pretty much all neutral scenarios and various spacing zones.

Mario has cape gimps aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand....

yeah. Mario can win but he legit has to outplay ryu and make no deadly mistakes.

I've heard decent arguments saying that Mario could win this due to his ability to escape Ryu's combos and combo him well, though I'm not quite in agreement with them. I have always seen it slightly in Ryu's favor or even.

 

[Mario766]

Would people consider Jigglypuff the better turtler?

...







no.

 

[Trifroze]

Ryu's difficulty gets exaggerated. His big, long lasting hitboxes alone give him a lot of room for error in his timing and spacing, and his shield safety is among the best in the game. You can just land on someone's shield with nair and start mashing utilt/dtilt until your opponent is pushed too far or they have to take a different defensive option, and those same tilts confirm into one of the strongest kill moves in the game.

Ryu doesn't care about spacing any more than the rest of the characters in this game. He needs to hit from a certain distance with a certain hitbox to get the follow up he wants, and if he screws up he'll most likely still get something out of it or at least reset back to neutral because he can't be shieldgrabbed unless you're literally just doing whatever you want. You could argue his clumsiness in the air makes this harder, but at the same time his various options and lenient hitboxes make up for it. Once you get over the shock factor of playing an unconventional character and focus on his optimal things, there are many characters that challenge Ryu's difficulty.

Most of Ryu's longer strings involve the same 4 moves, nair, fair, utilt and dair, in different ways depending on the opponent and their percentage (which really is just a formula in your head that you automatically get used to), or they're simple things like light dtilt x 3 into heavy dtilt into tatsu/hadoken or short 2 hit combos like dair/weak fair/(aerial) focus attack into x.

Good hitboxes are a huge thing for ease of use and room for error. If you don't think so it's probably because you've always had them.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

It works for Yoshi because his up-b isn't a recovery but just another move in his arsenal, which is unique to Smash. For Kirby, it doesn't do anything for his neutral but is just a recovery move like Ike. It's an afterthought that doesn't get used in Smash for anything because landing with the move is super unsafe.

You still can't turtle with Kirby. His buttons are unsafe and you can't wait out people because your mobility and without range you don't get the punishes you need on the cast that have disjoints or fast options.

Unless you're trying to argue that Kirby is trying to turtle as his main gameplay style but just can't


Which I'll agree with, because Kirby is a flawed character.

This, basically. Kirby wants to turtle, but his kit stops him. Luckily he has some good combos on top tiers to make for some even MUs (Fox and ZSS says MikeKirby) to keep him from being trash tier.

On that note, MikeKirby says the ZSS MU is even right now, and could even be better with further MU testing and experience. What do you guys think about this? I think Kirby isn't a good character, but he could become a viable pick in tournaments if this becomes a thing. I can't disregard Mike's opinion (went 1-2 last stock last HIT with Nairo at a regional and has beaten Larry's ZSS a lot), but I don't know.

When I see Kirby I have only one comment


Why

Not

Play

Meta Knight.

Instead of being patient for some percent and getting ****ed by low range

Why not play this OTHER floaty with lots of jumps who not only has a better recovery, safer

and kills with early percent combos.

Kirby and MK play completely different lol, but I play Kirby because I like playing Kirby, no matter how flawed he is. I'm not playing for money, I don't need to pick a top tier lol

 

[Mario766]

When I see Kirby I have only one comment


Why

Not

Play

Meta Knight.

Instead of being patient for some percent and getting ****ed by low range

Why not play this OTHER floaty with lots of jumps who not only has a better recovery, safer

and kills with early percent combos.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ryu's difficulty gets exaggerated. His big, long lasting hitboxes alone give him a lot of room for error in his timing and spacing, and his shield safety is among the best in the game. You can just land on someone's shield with nair and start mashing utilt/dtilt until your opponent is pushed too far or they have to take a different defensive option, and those same tilts confirm into one of the strongest kill moves in the game.

Ryu doesn't care about spacing any more than the rest of the characters in this game. He needs to hit from a certain distance with a certain hitbox to get the follow up he wants, and if he screws up he'll most likely still get something out of it or at least reset back to neutral because he can't be shieldgrabbed unless you're literally just doing whatever you want. You could argue his clumsiness in the air makes this harder, but at the same time his various options and lenient hitboxes make up for it. Once you get over the shock factor of playing an unconventional character and focus on his optimal things, there are many characters that challenge Ryu's difficulty.

Most of Ryu's longer strings involve the same 4 moves, nair, fair, utilt and dair, in different ways depending on the opponent and their percentage (which really is just a formula in your head that you automatically get used to), or they're simple things like light dtilt x 3 into heavy dtilt into tatsu/hadoken or short 2 hit combos like dair/weak fair/(aerial) focus attack into x.

Good hitboxes are a huge thing for ease of use and room for error. If you don't think so it's probably because you've always had them.

Sure, his stuff is tough to punish on a normal block. But if anyone powershields his aerials his poor air decel is going to bite him in the ass then unless he was retreating, because he WILL leave himself open to various OOS punishes. Plus, for all his range and power, his moves still aren't all that disjointed. It's his ground buttons that he uses when he wants to be safe.

I also feel that the utility of Ryu's biggest combos are a bit overrated. I mean... sure they're nice if you can land them, but it's his ability to consistently convert fast, low commitment moves into high-powered ones that makes his damage output so formidable.

 

[Wintermelon43]

When I see Kirby I have only one comment


Why

Not

Play

Meta Knight.

Instead of being patient for some percent and getting ****ed by low range

Why not play this OTHER floaty with lots of jumps who not only has a better recovery, safer

and kills with early percent combos.

Because they have more fun with Kirby than Meta Knight, Duh, or they like the general character!!!!!!! What do you think???!!!

 

[warionumbah2]

Why not play this OTHER floaty with lots of jumps who not only has a better recovery, safer

This orb falls faster than your main and he's floaty?

 

[Mario766]

This orb falls faster than your main and he's floaty?

Falls fast, but can keep up in the air like floaties because of the multiple jumps. Pardon me for being incorrect.

My post still stands.

 

[Ffamran]

When I see Kirby I have only one comment


Why

Not

Play

Meta Knight.

Instead of being patient for some percent and getting ****ed by low range

Why not play this OTHER floaty with lots of jumps who not only has a better recovery, safer

and kills with early percent combos.

Correction: Meta Knight is a fast faller. Now, if you want to talk about a floaty who also have multiple jumps and kills pretty well without having to deal with much issues, then you're looking at the Pits.

Edit: 'd.

Falls fast, but can keep up in the air like floaties because of the multiple jumps. Pardon me for being incorrect.

My post still stands.

That's... weird. If anything, Meta Knight and other multi-jumpers outside of maybe Charizard are more like stalling in the air with their jumps rather than just straightup falling slowly like Samus and Zelda.

 

[Nobie]

I've said it before, but it seems like most players who come primarily from Smash see Ryu as a combo character, someone you use if you just want to land that up tilt into 3 hits into Shoryuken. Some of the best Ryu players are like this. However, the Ryus with Street Fighter experience gush over his plethora of strict options for spacing. It's like there are two strains of Ryu: the kind who love the advantaged state more, and the kind who love the neutral state more.

Edit re: Kirby vs. Meta Knight, related to the Ryu stuff above.

I think a lot of character choice (or even choices on how to play the same character), both practical and impractical, comes down to HOW you want to hurt your opponent.

If you're Meta Knight, you want high-speed punishes in neutral leading to vertical KO juggles or edgeguards. If you're Kirby, you want mostly ground-based mixups and combos that exploit good frame data low to the ground.

 

[wedl!!]

Puff is the best at dying at 45% to every character in the game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Back on the topic of turtling... given the generally lower effectiveness of projectiles in lockdown and swordsmen, characters who can really benefit from such a playstyle are few and far between. Also doesn't help that you can't guard chip your way to victory like in most fighters.

Those who are most apt to do this are Marth, Zelda (or at least she WISHES she could...) and King Dedede (everything about him improves massively if he gets a lead, as he no longer cares if gordos get deflected as long as he can stop them from reaching him).

Then of course there's a certain Pokemon who reflects everything thrown at him while charging a deadly projectile of his own, and has a giant tail plus explosive psychic powers...

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I've said it before, but it seems like most players who come primarily from Smash see Ryu as a combo character, someone you use if you just want to land that up tilt into 3 hits into Shoryuken. Some of the best Ryu players are like this. However, the Ryus with Street Fighter experience gush over his plethora of strict options for spacing. It's like there are two strains of Ryu: the kind who love the advantaged state more, and the kind who love the neutral state more.

Edit re: Kirby vs. Meta Knight, related to the Ryu stuff above.

I think a lot of character choice (or even choices on how to play the same character), both practical and impractical, comes down to HOW you want to hurt your opponent.

If you're Meta Knight, you want high-speed punishes in neutral leading to vertical KO juggles or edgeguards. If you're Kirby, you want mostly ground-based mixups and combos that exploit good frame data low to the ground.

"good frame data"

Frame 10 f-air
Frame 10 U-air
Frame 10 n-air
frame 18 d-air
frame 6 (thank god) b-air

I wouldn't call that good lol, but he has the 2nd lowest landing lag so i guess that evens it out lol

 

[Dre89]

This will probably sound stupid, but Ryu did not seem like a difficult character to me when I played him. I found his movement and spacing very intuitive. I just couldn't do the combos because I didn't know any of them.

So yeah, unless his combos are super technical and difficult to do, there's no way that character is harder than the majority of the cast. He has too much leeway and reward on everything he does.

 

[Trifroze]

I've said it before, but it seems like most players who come primarily from Smash see Ryu as a combo character, someone you use if you just want to land that up tilt into 3 hits into Shoryuken. Some of the best Ryu players are like this. However, the Ryus with Street Fighter experience gush over his plethora of strict options for spacing. It's like there are two strains of Ryu: the kind who love the advantaged state more, and the kind who love the neutral state more.

To be honest that latter type you describe is just making things harder than necessary for themselves. Any character can become difficult by being played sub-optimally.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Let's be real

Having a projectile on your up-b

May as well not be a projectile at all.

Unless you can spike with it with a 5 frame window and an 8 frame startup.

Plus landing autocancel Elwind shenanigans.

And anti-sharking. Heaven help you if they call that one though.

 

[Nobie]

To be honest that latter type you describe is just making things harder than necessary for themselves. Any character can become difficult by being played sub-optimally.

I'm not saying that the neutral-favoring players DON'T do the combos, or that the combo-favoring players just forget about neutral, but that there's a difference in motivation and mindset as a result.

Like watch this actual SFIV match from the recent Capcom Cup. It's Evil Ryu so it's not quite the same as Ryu, but you can see just how much Daigo is constantly jockeying for position, and the very act of walking forward or backwards at key moments is a big deal. Before a hit is even landed, the game is considered intense. That seems to be the environment where SFers thrive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbsULpCM1so

Though keep in mind that there are certain characters even in SFIV that seem better for Smashers (Makoto, C. Viper).

Edit: one more thing about the Mewtwo vs. heavies discussion from before.

Take a look at this match that just happened at The Break Weekly: http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun/v/28974199?t=83m0s

Does that look like the way a heavy would play? Mewtwo hits like a heavy but moves and combos like a medium-weight, and spaces like a swordsman.

 

[LancerStaff]

Plus landing autocancel Elwind shenanigans.

Hm. I thought that when it was discovered people thought it was too hard to consistently pull off. Is it a big deal now?