Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[ParanoidDrone]

I think people underestimate how good Rosaloner is. Rosaloner is still a good character because she still has good hitboxes and frame data. The opponent will always want to approach to capitalise on the lack of luma, which alleviates a lot of her mobility problems. If she were just a solo character, then she'd be a fair bit worse because there wouldn't be as much of a burden to approach her. But in the context of the opponent having/wanting to approach she's still better than quite a lot of characters.

As for swapping properties, doing so would make her more like a traditional camper. Projectile campers tend to be able to rack up damage safely from range, but are normally reliant on shorter range options for killing (think toon link with usmash and fair). Every character with that model is a lot more balanced than Rosa is.

Solo Rosalina's frame data is...not awful, but not spectacular either. Her fastest move is dtilt at frame 5, which is workable but not really fast enough to win a poking war IMO. It does have great range going for it, but you basically have to outrange the opponent or call them out on something laggy.

I really feel like I'm in a twilight zone where Rosalina is an easy, overtuned character. Rosalina is good sure, but man, this character is not forgiving to play at all. Rosalina basically completely depends on exerting control over the match to win. While she's doing this successfully she's really oppressive and generally super good. Hitting with both characters does tons of damage and knockback with incredible range and average speed on pretty much everything so it's a beautiful thing. When this is NOT going well, it's really easy to just get blown up. Basic defensive options with other characters are the "watch Luma get hit" options with Rosalina, and when you are not winning the spatial control battle or when Luma is out of position (or worse dead!) basically every button she has is too slow and too unsafe to force your opponent back to the defense which means you have to be making solid reads just to avoid being mauled. If Rosalina is already losing and needs to go in to make a comeback, she's really bad at it since her stuff is only safe if she is playing the slower and more careful spatial control game, and her movement specs really aren't very good for moving in anyway. Winning with Rosalina requires being able to seize and maintain momentum for extended periods of time mostly through really sound spatial control, and even then, you'll realistically still lose Luma several times per game which results in your opponent having incredible momentum against you that very much can and will continue after Luma respawns unless you do something smart to buy a little time and re-exert control. If you make mistakes with Rosalina (even small ones), it's really easy to end up in a terrible position in a hurry, and once you're in a terrible position with her, it's really hard to claw your way back out of it. There's a lot to be said about this style of character and there's no doubt she can be very effective, but what I can't see is how it's anything but really difficult to play. I believe the general tournament results with her that show "she can do some big winning, but mostly just by people who have put a lot of time into her" are pretty accurate at reflecting this.

I didn't mean to imply Rosalina is braindead, but she is surprisingly simple to grasp on a basic level compared to literally every puppet fighter I've ever tried ever, including the Ice Climbers if they count. (Possible exception: Elizabeth in Persona 4 Arena if you consider her ability to combo you from fullscreen with Thanatos. Shadow Labrys and Ken/Koromaru are the more traditional puppet archetypes though; everyone else just has their persona come and go as they attack and Elizabeth happens to be capable of keeping hers out for quite a while.)

You make an excellent point about standard defensive options (shield, spotdodge, roll, etc.) coming with a high price tag for her since Luma will still get hit. The best way for her to defend herself is to simply not be there but tall + average-ish mobility in everything except air speed doesn't really help.

Without Luma, I've had moderate success with going for grabs every chance I get and forcing them to dodge followups that I know aren't guaranteed but still succeed in making them either eat a hit or get out of the way. Doing that a few times eats up a good chunk of Luma's respawn timer. I suspect this won't be as effective against people above the local level, but for now it's not failing outright.

EDIT: Regarding Ryu's inputs, my main issue is that since Motion + A produces specials, I tend to accidentally Hadouken/Tatsu when I meant to do a smash after crouching or fair/bair after fast falling or similar circumstances.

 

[Routa]

Ah now I shall throw my 2 cents about Swordfighter side-b 1.

Like Antonykun said it is very predictable. Also it is very very VERY risky move on stage and it should only used for recovery. Yes it can kill, but due to its risk/reward ratio it is not worth it. So you are left with 2 options for Side-B: Chakram and Slash Launcher. I personally prefer SL due to how well it goes with Gale Strike and Power Thrust. SL is indeed easier to edgeguard with projectiles compared to Airborne Assault, but due to it's faster speed it is more reliable and safer. Also you should not recover straight to ledge with it unless your foe is far away from the ledge. Also due to it's stoping mechanic at the ledge, it is a lot safer on stage compared to AA. One good way to use it is back flip and SL right away. This can catch people off guard. You can mix it up by using GS instead of SL. Overall SL is not a bad choice, but Chakram is overall better when you look at it's uses.

I would also say that Counter is a bit better than Reversal Slash due to how useful a Counter is in most of the MU's compared to "cape". In my opinion 1331 would be "the best" set of moves for Swordfighter (multihit projectile with windbox and destroys weaker projectiles, Chakram is Chakram, OoS Kill move and Counter that is a Counter).

 

[LightLV]

I'm not saying that the neutral-favoring players DON'T do the combos, or that the combo-favoring players just forget about neutral, but that there's a difference in motivation and mindset as a result.

Like watch this actual SFIV match from the recent Capcom Cup. It's Evil Ryu so it's not quite the same as Ryu, but you can see just how much Daigo is constantly jockeying for position, and the very act of walking forward or backwards at key moments is a big deal. Before a hit is even landed, the game is considered intense. That seems to be the environment where SFers thrive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbsULpCM1so

Though keep in mind that there are certain characters even in SFIV that seem better for Smashers (Makoto, C. Viper).

Edit: one more thing about the Mewtwo vs. heavies discussion from before.

Take a look at this match that just happened at The Break Weekly: http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun/v/28974199?t=83m0s

Does that look like the way a heavy would play? Mewtwo hits like a heavy but moves and combos like a medium-weight, and spaces like a swordsman.

Ryu cannot kill you by playing footsies in that manner (before a percent that would make it matter anyway), and Smash 4 is not even half as punishing as SFIV is in regards to a successful counterhit and space control.

In that video, daigo barely lands a jump kick, confirms to a corner carry

The only reason people say characters like Ryu are "difficult" is because his strengths are more spread out than a character like Shiek, ZSS or Mario, who can defeat most character's options with a handful of go-to inputs. Which may actually make him more versatile than your typical S-tier, but it also greatly widens his range of error, and when we're talking about characters who can cover an entire moveset's worth of options with 2 attacks, it becomes problematic. And tech walls should always be respected when discussing character placement.


The hardest part about Ryu to me is 1) not playing him as if i'm playing a 2D fighter (i.e. like in those videos above, it doesnt work) and 2) special inputs on analog stick is horrible, its why i hated playing fighters on x360 and i don't know how people do it


if shieldpush is reinstated in this last update to at least brawl levels (PLEASE SAKURAI PLEASE), i'd switch mains to ryu in a heartbeat though. blockstring pushouts, stage control ledgeslip, yes lawd please

 

[ninjaraiii]

I'm just gonna put in my input and say megamans ceiling is pretty up there. With alot of techniques revolving around metal blade and crash bomb, and being able to space with his neutral, I'm still learning how to get better with him. That being said it's already hard enough to find someone that can beat me wit my megaman in my area with my skill level now.

 

[Antonykun]

Ah now I shall throw my 2 cents about Swordfighter side-b 1.

Like Antonykun said it is very predictable. Also it is very very VERY risky move on stage and it should only used for recovery. Yes it can kill, but due to its risk/reward ratio it is not worth it. So you are left with 2 options for Side-B: Chakram and Slash Launcher. I personally prefer SL due to how well it goes with Gale Strike and Power Thrust. SL is indeed easier to edgeguard with projectiles compared to Airborne Assault, but due to it's faster speed it is more reliable and safer. Also you should not recover straight to ledge with it unless your foe is far away from the ledge. Also due to it's stoping mechanic at the ledge, it is a lot safer on stage compared to AA. One good way to use it is back flip and SL right away. This can catch people off guard. You can mix it up by using GS instead of SL. Overall SL is not a bad choice, but Chakram is overall better when you look at it's uses.

I would also say that Counter is a bit better than Reversal Slash due to how useful a Counter is in most of the MU's compared to "cape". In my opinion 1331 would be "the best" set of moves for Swordfighter (multihit projectile with windbox and destroys weaker projectiles, Chakram is Chakram, OoS Kill move and Counter that is a Counter).

honestly Counter may be better against more characters but I rather have my "optimal set" make ryu closer to even and villager more torelable furthermore most topp tiers are really good at baiting counters

Counters best use IMO is for EZ edguards against select characters that can be cumbersome to edgeguard with just Chakram + D-air AND have a rising hitbox
here's a list:


Having a reflector gives Swordfighter valuable options in neutral against projectile heavy characters like Villager or Megaman ESPECIALLY when combined with Chakram while also gimping certain horizontal/diagonal recoveries like Tatsumaki and Launch Star

 

[Sonicninja115]

He has a projectile...it's just bad



You are not about to argue that Smash 4 has more depth than Brawl did, i won't let you, life wont let you

god wont let you

Don't even get me started on Melee, you miiiiiiiight have an argument for 64, since it was a pretty simple game, just unforgiving, but thats as close as you get

At a high level of play in Smash, chess is a lot like it. You have to be thinking of your moves and plan them out according to what your opponent is doing. You might have to quickly switch up offensive and defensive play. Your opponent might be trying to trap (condition) you in something, so you have to watch out for that.

Chess is really a simplified not 60 FPS version of fighting games.

Also, I agree with you @Emblemlord.

 

[slavoslav]

Chess is really a simplified not 60 FPS version of fighting games.

it's time to stop posting

 

[LightLV]

At a high level of play in Smash, chess is a lot like it. You have to be thinking of your moves and plan them out according to what your opponent is doing. You might have to quickly switch up offensive and defensive play. Your opponent might be trying to trap (condition) you in something, so you have to watch out for that.

Chess is really a simplified not 60 FPS version of fighting games.

Yeah no. This is precisely why i drew issue with people making the silly comparisons, since im sure alot of you probably believe this.

Chess is a controlled game with 1:1 balanced variables, very simple rules that are easy to understand but quickly become complicated when you input 2 human brains who are trying to outsmart eachother. Key word here is "emergence". I don't play chess, but with maybe the first move aside on white, the game is 100%, 1:1 balanced. Moves are given ample processing time to make. The game is ENTIRELY mental, you could literally play without using any of your limbs if you wanted and be none the worse for it.


Fighting games are part mechanical and part mental, the ratio differs between game series but by nature it's fundamentally different from Chess. You can compare mental approaches to fighting games with Chess, but then again you can compare Call of Duty combat strategies with actual modern warfare in real life. It's just a result of oversimplifying things.


Yes, you can take chess strategies, port them over to smash and probably get alot of use out of them...but that's not going to work in reverse. It's a different set of skills.

 

[DanGR]

Antonykun Cape seems to overlap in use cases with chakram a bit too much for my liking, even against some of those characters you listed. I'm no expert though. Covering the 2-frame with down-angled, slightly tilt chakram opens up swordfighter to be able to cover other options with his other attacks. The trap potential is huge- part of the reason why I enjoy the character.

 

[C0rvus]

Smash would be more like chess if there was only 1 character. 1v1 games often share similar mental aspects of play, and I can agree to the simile of chess and Smash to a degree. It's just not a super productive discussion to have tbh.

 

[LancerStaff]

Rosalina herself is not overtuned IMO. Rosalina & Luma the character is. The distinction is important. Luma has an absurd amount of knockback for basically everything, possibly to (over)compensate for its low damage per hit since that does impact the formula. Rosalina does a lot of damage (especially that rapid jab, like wow) but she's not a huge threat when solo. (Luckily for us and unluckily for everyone else, she just needs to stall for 12-13 seconds to get her OP star pillow back.)

I agree that controlling the pair on a fundamental level is surprisingly simple, especially compared to more traditional puppet fighter archetypes. (I gave up trying to control Carl Clover or Shadow Labrys in like an hour each. Similarly, I could never get the hang of Ice Climber desynchs.) I attribute this to the fact that Luma doesn't have its own separate list of inputs -- it attacks when Rosalina does and that's it.

BTW if you want to stretch it, Rosalina can hit anyone from anywhere if she places Luma right. Saying she outranges someone isn't always a meaningful statement. Perks of being a puppet fighter? Although I'll assume you're referring to when the two are linked together.

Vaguely related but not really, a thought exercise. Currently Rosalina and Luma are split as the damage dealer and killer, respectively. How would you (general you, not anyone in particular) feel if the two switched roles, with Rosalina having oodles of KO power but weak damage, and Luma doing solid damage with everything but lacking real KO options? Assume everything else, e.g. frame data, hitboxes, Luma respawn mechanics, etc. stays the same.

Luma has all the KO power because he's going to spend the majority of the match dead in FFAs. Damage is more or less for defense in FFAs, although people will stop caring past a certain point.

Giving Rosalina KO power makes Luma pretty useless in FFAs since, again, it'll be dead most of the time. Then they'd have to either speed up Luma's respawn time or make it unkillable, and now we're basically back to where we started.

 

[DunnoBro]

More range and safety on everything is not going to be useless lol

 

[LightLV]

Luma has all the KO power because he's going to spend the majority of the match dead in FFAs. Damage is more or less for defense in FFAs, although people will stop caring past a certain point.

Giving Rosalina KO power makes Luma pretty useless in FFAs since, again, it'll be dead most of the time. Then they'd have to either speed up Luma's respawn time or make it unkillable, and now we're basically back to where we started.

Have you ever fought a Rosalina in FFA? Everytime she's on the field i question why the hell i didn't pick her myself. x1 trillion if items are turned on.

She's oppressive in FFA with or without Luma, Luma just makes it worse, she doesn't need Luma to kill you at silly %s and she's stupid in 1v1 as well. Again, FFA sheds no useful light on anything.

Smash would be more like chess if there was only 1 character. 1v1 games often share similar mental aspects of play, and I can agree to the simile of chess and Smash to a degree. It's just not a super productive discussion to have tbh.

The closest any fighting game will ever get to chess is during mirror matches, because that is the only moment the game is 1:1 balanced. At that point, each player has identical options, strengths and weaknesses. And ironically people typically hate mirror matches.

But i agree, the comparisons are not productive at all, in order to make them in the first place you have to gloss over all the finer details and it defeats the purpose.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Have you ever fought a Rosalina in FFA? Everytime she's on the field i question why the hell i didn't pick her myself. x1 trillion if items are turned on.

She's oppressive in FFA with or without Luma, Luma just makes it worse, she doesn't need Luma to kill you at silly %s and she's stupid in 1v1 as well. Again, FFA sheds no useful light on anything.



The closest any fighting game will ever get to chess is during mirror matches, because that is the only moment the game is 1:1 balanced. At that point, each player has identical options, strengths and weaknesses. And ironically people typically hate mirror matches.

But i agree, the comparisons are not productive at all, in order to make them in the first place you have to gloss over all the finer details and it defeats the purpose.

Rosa is good in FFA, but I find either heavies or small projectile characters to be better IMO. Either that or a character that can destroy someone with a jank move. Smash art or KO punch.

 

[LancerStaff]

Have you ever fought a Rosalina in FFA? Everytime she's on the field i question why the hell i didn't pick her myself. x1 trillion if items are turned on.

She's oppressive in FFA with or without Luma, Luma just makes it worse, she doesn't need Luma to kill you at silly %s and she's stupid in 1v1 as well. Again, FFA sheds no useful light on anything.

Yes, I have. She's balanced for mid level play, meaning that if you're in a group of players that actually know what they're doing Rosalina's going to feel very weak. Luma will not be getting many moves off and Rosalina is one of the lightest characters in the game and can't play keep away with the extra players.

Now I'm convinced you're making up stories because you have a vendetta against either me or my ideas, because what you said is is completely wrong.

 

[DunnoBro]

Real talk high level FFA play doesn't even really exist and assuming not only that it does, but that it also conforms to your views is really stupid.

Either explain your views in-depth or don't just dismiss retorts because they don't concur with your completely unproven statements.

That said, unless items are on I don't think Rosaluma is particularly good in FFAs.

 

[Zelder]

Oh my God, FFA talk and chess analogies. I'm dead, and in hell.


Edit: To dive back into Ryu talk, did anything come from that escape-light-uptilt tech? I believe a Japanese Ike player demonstrated that you can escape from the dreaded elbow by utilizing half circle DI, but I haven't seen it implemented in any high level play yet.

I feel like there's nothing more stressful in this game than fighting a good Ryu. The knowledge that you can be taken to your maker at 70%, coupled with the knowledge that approximately half of his moveset links towards that Shoryuken, is very taxing.

 

[LancerStaff]

Real talk high level FFA play doesn't even really exist and assuming not only that it does, but that it also conforms to your views is really stupid.

Either explain your views in-depth or don't just dismiss retorts because they don't concur with your completely unproven statements.

That said, unless items are on I don't think Rosaluma is particularly good in FFAs.

It doesn't exist in the same way as high level 1v1 play does, and it's not entirely relevant because Smash is quite explicitly balanced for mid level players such as most of for Glory. Like you said, she has perfectly ordinary results in FFAs, although items don't exactly help her cause because now it just directs everybody over to her, a lightweight, and the range on Gravitational Pull isn't exactly absolute either.

Explain? I mean, I think I explained my line of thought quite well.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Oh my God, FFA talk and chess analogies. I'm dead, and in hell.


Edit: To dive back into Ryu talk, did anything come from that escape-light-uptilt tech? I believe a Japanese Ike player demonstrated that you can escape from the dreaded elbow by utilizing half circle DI, but I haven't seen it implemented in any high level play yet.

I feel like there's nothing more stressful in this game than fighting a good Ryu. The knowledge that you can be taken to your maker at 70%, coupled with the knowledge that approximately half of his moveset links towards that Shoryuken, is very taxing.

Is there a video? and are you talking about SDI?

 

[Mecakoto]

It doesn't exist in the same way as high level 1v1 play does, and it's not entirely relevant because Smash is quite explicitly balanced for mid level players such as most of for Glory. Like you said, she has perfectly ordinary results in FFAs, although items don't exactly help her cause because now it just directs everybody over to her, a lightweight, and the range on Gravitational Pull isn't exactly absolute either.

Explain? I mean, I think I explained my line of thought quite well.

Lancer part of the Smash 4 development team confirmed. I mean, WHY ELSE would you speak about balance policies as fact if you were not?

Also, if people ask you to elaborate, it means you didn't explain your line of thought well enough.

 

[Zelder]

Is there a video? and are you talking about SDI?

Oh man, this took me so long to find, you have no idea:

Something interesting that was posted in the Ike skype chat recently:

https://twitter.com/noji_nko/status/669448127926149120

Supposedly, Quarter Circle DI works well against Ryu's strings due to high hitlag + multiple hits + how Ryu needs to position himself? I mean, those are all looking like BnB combos that normally hit and well, aren't. If that is the case, it could look as if it could be pretty important to know how to do that consistently against Ryu, particularly since it seems to be a way to get away from the lethal part of Up B. And well, if Ike can move out of the way enough, I'd imagine characters like Pikachu would have a pretty darn easy time.

It seems to be relatively recent tech, was wondering if it's actually usable and what this means for the Ryu match ups (maybe making it 5% more difficult to hit a shoryu).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Oh man, this took me so long to find, you have no idea:



It seems to be relatively recent tech, was wondering if it's actually usable and what this means for the Ryu match ups (maybe making it 5% more difficult to hit a shoryu).

That's nuts! It has to either be A. Something new. B. SDI or C. DI in one direction and then another. Hoping for A.

 

[LancerStaff]

Lancer part of the Smash 4 development team confirmed. I mean, WHY ELSE would you speak about balance policies as fact if you were not?

Also, if people ask you to elaborate, it means you didn't explain your line of thought well enough.

The Smash 4 development team said they take into account many ways of play, and did not (and would not) say that FFAs weren't prioritized. I've said this already, and you're just plugging your ears instead of actually arguing properly.

Explain? Explain what? Clearly I don't need to explain why Rosalina isn't OP in FFAs, and the FFA priority is obvious when there's a ton of clearly great characters above the rest in 1v1s while in FFAs it's debatable if there's even a best character. Doubt even our best and brightest could even find a remote consensus on who's good and bad in FFAs...

 

[Locke 06]

The Smash 4 development team said they take into account many ways of play, and did not (and would not) say that FFAs weren't prioritized...

Absence of evidence is not evidence.

They also did not say smash tour and trophy rush high scores weren't prioritized.

 

[Djmarcus44]

How are you getting above DK so easily when he's above stage? A good DK will always recover high after mid percents and only go low depending on what the opponent is doing.

Also I confused super armour for intangibility. I know it beats out some projectiles, but I don't know which ones it loses to, if any.

Grenade arcs above the stage and missile goes above the stage to follow DK. Flame pillar covers a good distance above the stage when shot at the ledge. Bomb Drop can be dropped on DK from a full hop. DK's up b loses to all of these options since it only has 4 intangible frames. If you are talking about when DK is knocked away at a high percent, then Mii Gunner can beat out DK's up b with up air.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh man, this took me so long to find, you have no idea:



It seems to be relatively recent tech, was wondering if it's actually usable and what this means for the Ryu match ups (maybe making it 5% more difficult to hit a shoryu).

Oh hey people are maybe talking about this now instead of freaking FFA and Chess (Seriously Thinkaman can we at least temp ban FFA and Chess discussions in this topic because this is getting beyond stupid now.)

I actually ran into a Ryu player last week at a local tournament. Sadly, the tournament was doubles only. With only one set up. Didn't get a chance to try this out. At least I was smart enough to CP him to Duck Hunt.

It seems to be SDI based on the rather tiny amount of talk this got when I originally posted it here. Just that due to the high amount of hitlag with his moves, SDI works oddly well against his strings provided they are at least 3 hits long.

 

[Locke 06]

It seems to be SDI based on the rather tiny amount of talk this got when I originally posted it here. Just that due to the high amount of hitlag with his moves, SDI works oddly well against his strings provided they are at least 3 hits long.

I would be curious if there's an SDI Multiplier above 1 for Ryu's moves. That SDI looks brawl-like and there are plenty of moves that have more hitlag than a light dtilt/utilt that never see SDI like that.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's probably an SDI multiplier of 1

I'm pretty sure it's just that most smash 4 moves have a very very low SDI multiplier, maybe they didn't give Ryu the same courtesy

 

[LancerStaff]

Absence of evidence is not evidence.

They also did not say smash tour and trophy rush high scores weren't prioritized.

And FFAs aren't more balanced?

Smash Tour is RNG incarnate and Trophy Rush is completely broken by a few moves, not to mention they haven't been brought up by Sakurai specifically when it comes to balance. This isn't rocket science, people...

 

[C0rvus]

Is there a thread or archive of some sort that has a record of how to DI stuff? If not, there should be. It's hard to remember everything, and there is good information out there. If we could get that all together, it might stop misinformation and be a place to point people towards. Common problems like players DI'ing ZSS stuff wrong or keeping tabs on that possible game-changing DI on Ryu's tilts could be addressed in one place. It would also help lazy players like me improve faster

 

[Ffamran]

I would be curious if there's an SDI Multiplier above 1 for Ryu's moves. That SDI looks brawl-like and there are plenty of moves that have more hitlag than a light dtilt/utilt that never see SDI like that.

Here's the raw data dump if you want to kill yourself find out: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/ryu.

 

[Lavani]

tl;dr of Ryu SDI multipliers for those that don't like staring at numbers: they're all x1.0 except for light utilt which is x2.5.

People kind of just ignored SDI in this game for a long time because dual sticking was nerfed and SDI in general was weakened compared to previous games, but it's still significant enough to escape lots of things (not just Ryu) if you mash hard enough. High hitlag attacks in particular can let you move pretty far even if they don't have SDI multipliers.

 

[KenMeister]

The Smash 4 development team said they take into account many ways of play, and did not (and would not) say that FFAs weren't prioritized. I've said this already, and you're just plugging your ears instead of actually arguing properly.

Explain? Explain what? Clearly I don't need to explain why Rosalina isn't OP in FFAs, and the FFA priority is obvious when there's a ton of clearly great characters above the rest in 1v1s while in FFAs it's debatable if there's even a best character. Doubt even our best and brightest could even find a remote consensus on who's good and bad in FFAs...

I thought we agreed a long time ago not to bring up ffas for explaining balancing decisions, yet again we've come back to it full circle. Stahp.

 

[LancerStaff]

I thought we agreed a long time ago not to bring up ffas for explaining balancing decisions, yet again we've come back to it full circle. Stahp.

Nobody agreed to anything. All that happened was that I pointed out that nobody made a real effort to disprove anything on the basis "it's stoopid" or simply missing half of what I said. Whenever I ask somebody to point out the flaws everybody just runs and nothing's accomplished.

Actually I'm quite curious about Thinkaman's stance on this discussion since this has came up plenty of times in the new and old topics and yet nothing's been done as far as putting up a rule.

 

[Zelder]

For the love of God just let it go man.

 

[Locke 06]

This isn't rocket science, people...

Neither is bringing up valid points to support your arguments. Whether or not I believe FFA's are more balanced, saying "they didn't say they weren't explicitly balanced for" is very hand wavy.

tl;dr of Ryu SDI multipliers for those that don't like staring at numbers: they're all x1.0 except for light utilt which is x2.5.

People kind of just ignored SDI in this game for a long time because dual sticking was nerfed and SDI in general was weakened compared to previous games, but it's still significant enough to escape lots of things (not just Ryu) if you mash hard enough. High hitlag attacks in particular can let you move pretty far even if they don't have SDI multipliers.

Again. Ty Loki.

The SDI multiplier of x2.5 on light utilt is really, really, really important. Because of the "utilt lock" that fast fallers suffer from.

Meaning the utilt Iock is something people should learn how to get out of.

Edit some more: I still find it hard to believe that was normal/human SDI. There's more hitlag on KO punch than Ryu's normals and Ike seemed to SDI more than puff. Would be interested to see people look into SDI more.

Ghostbone - most moves have an SDI x1.

 

[Antonykun]

Antonykun Cape seems to overlap in use cases with chakram a bit too much for my liking, even against some of those characters you listed. I'm no expert though. Covering the 2-frame with down-angled, slightly tilt chakram opens up swordfighter to be able to cover other options with his other attacks. The trap potential is huge- part of the reason why I enjoy the character.

I personally find that there are too many characters who can just use their projectiles to ignore chakram that Reversal Slash really helps
here's another list:


and then theres theres those strong linear recoveries that are such a pain to edgeguard.
(jump)(when chakram is used to discouraged z-air)

 

[Thinkaman]

I feel like the free-for-all discussion was a valid side topic, but everyone has long said their two cents on the subject.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Character Competitive Impressions. This doesn't apply to either FFAs or Chess. Just go to a new topic.

On that note, can the topic NOT be duck hunt or Ryu? I see them on every other page if we aren't talking about chess. I would like to partake in other discussions, and I'm hopefully not the only one.

 

[LancerStaff]

Neither is bringing up valid points to support your arguments. Whether or not I believe FFA's are more balanced, saying "they didn't say they weren't explicitly balanced for" is very hand wavy.

Uh-huh... And collectively ****ing off the competitive Smash fanbase isn't something they'd do. They'd never say it.

In what way, shape or form is FFAs suffering for 1v1's balance? Probably none. How much more balanced would 1v1s be if they actually, yaknow, fixed the core problems of characters like Sheik and Jigglypuff? Quite a bit, and for the most part it wouldn't be hard.

Really, where's this gigantic leap in logic I'm making? I've brought this up at least twenty times and nobody's answered.

I feel like the free-for-all discussion was a valid side topic, but everyone has long said their two cents on the subject.

Thank you.

Now the next time I bring up how FFAs effect 1v1s people can accept my answer (not necessarily as truth, just accept it exists) instead of attempting to call me out on my "nonsense" every single time things won't keep getting derailed... If you keep asking, I'll keep answering.