Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Trifroze]

I'm not saying that the neutral-favoring players DON'T do the combos, or that the combo-favoring players just forget about neutral, but that there's a difference in motivation and mindset as a result.

Like watch this actual SFIV match from the recent Capcom Cup. It's Evil Ryu so it's not quite the same as Ryu, but you can see just how much Daigo is constantly jockeying for position, and the very act of walking forward or backwards at key moments is a big deal. Before a hit is even landed, the game is considered intense. That seems to be the environment where SFers thrive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbsULpCM1so

Though keep in mind that there are certain characters even in SFIV that seem better for Smashers (Makoto, C. Viper).

I already watched Capcom Cup once on Sunday though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I'm saying is that if you try to play Ryu in Smash like you play him in Street Fighter, it's no doubt going to be hard because you're literally just limiting yourself with that mindset. Then there's also a different kind of "extreme" group, one that is overwhelmed by Ryu's extra moves, SF inputs and jab/tilt cancels when in reality you'll rarely use let alone need half of his moveset and the inputs and cancels aren't any more complex than many other inputs we constantly do in Smash 4. Ryu's are just less intuitive to those who've never touched SF.

The result is that you hear people calling Ryu demanding so often and from so many different sides that the opinion becomes a standard in the community, but I think it's sensible to argue that for someone who has never touched any fighting game including Smash, many characters could easily prove to be a lot harder to learn and master than Ryu would.

This is not to say Ryu is easy, but I think people who are constantly bringing up his complexity are misusing and/or misunderstanding the character, or just trying to boost their own status as a player.

 

[Locke 06]

Spacing Ryu's moves on block isn't really what I think Nobie is going for.

Sure, spacing shffBAir or FAir can be "difficult" with his terrible air acceleration/deceleration... But Ryu is stronger when he can whiff punish/counterpoke with his standing normals. No other character in the game relies on this more than Ryu (everyone else just Dash grabs because their Dash grab is good). Edit: Dash grabs are way too good in this game. Just saying. And Ryu's DA/Dash grab reward shouldn't be as good as it is. Mrgrgr.

Because of this, his general positioning is so important. While there's no "walk backwards" in smash (missed opportunity imo) you see a lot of Ryu's empty SHFF to adjust their spacing. At first I thought it was odd, since I pictured Ryu as more of a grounded character, but because his SHFF is so quick and because you can react to someone trying to punish your landing with a giant f4 FAir that does 15%... It works.

But I still want Ryu's to use PP in neutral more for spacing to stay grounded.

Edit 2: Ryu's True Shoryu's are so telegraphed in smash because of the almost need to run or buffer something (while in SF, forward is just walking which you do normally). Mega Man has a better shot of capturing the essence of the umeshoryu. But running TSRK as a punish is stuuuupid good. Another reason why his DA shouldn't be good.

 

[meleebrawler]

Edit: one more thing about the Mewtwo vs. heavies discussion from before.

Take a look at this match that just happened at The Break Weekly: http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun/v/28974199?t=83m0s

Does that look like the way a heavy would play? Mewtwo hits like a heavy but moves and combos like a medium-weight, and spaces like a swordsman.

If it wasn't for PSI Magnet, I'd almost say Mewtwo has an advantage over Ness.

Mewtwo has the luxury of not needing to burden himself with approaching most of the time. This is what sets him apart from heavies.

 

[Ffamran]

Ryu's counter-pokes becomes insane when you factor in his light Ftilt (frame 8-11) making his foot invincible for frames 6-11 and his heavy Utilt (frame 7-10) making his upper body invincible from frames 4-10. Add in his Shoryuken making him invincible from frames 3-5 regular or 1-6 input and you have a fighter who can poke you without much risk unlike say, Fox who could end up getting hit out of his vincible Ftilt and you have a fighter who will punish predictable aerials like no tomorrow. Bear in mind that his light Ftilt has a recovery like a jab and his heavy Utilt has the same active and recovery frames as Mario's Up Smash, a safe and spammable move, while being 2 frames faster on startup, but it is weaker by 2% and the hitbox is smaller, but the fact he has that option in addition to his Shoryuken, a fast and ridiculously low recovery light Utilt, and an Up Smash that resembles his heavy Utilt means Ryu has two invincible anti-airs, heavy Utilt and Shoryuken; 3 fast anti-airs: Utilt, Shoryuken, and heavy Utilt; and none of his 4 anti-air options are slower than frame 9. That's pretty much insane, but hey, it fits with aerial approaches in Street Fighter being risky, but rewarding. Against Ryu, landing an aerial is good, but messing up means you're going to die against him.

Now, speaking of good anti-air options, hello frame 5-11, 7 active, 27 recovery, frame 5-25 arm invincible DK Utilt that does 9%, 10%, or 11% depending on where you hit, sends you up 100 degrees, has 40 base, and 105, 110, or 115 growth depending on where you hit. Meanwhile, frame 11-16, 6 active, 23 recovery, frame 12-16 arm invincible Bowser Utilt that only does 9%, sends you up 100 degrees, has 55 base, and 97 growth. Slower and weaker. Hey, but at least it takes 4 frames less to recover... Why the hell does a gorilla without any form of natural armor other than his freaking fur have more I-frames than a freaking turtle dragon? That turtle dragon is covered in scales!

 

[Dre89]

I'm not saying that the neutral-favoring players DON'T do the combos, or that the combo-favoring players just forget about neutral, but that there's a difference in motivation and mindset as a result.

Like watch this actual SFIV match from the recent Capcom Cup. It's Evil Ryu so it's not quite the same as Ryu, but you can see just how much Daigo is constantly jockeying for position, and the very act of walking forward or backwards at key moments is a big deal. Before a hit is even landed, the game is considered intense. That seems to be the environment where SFers thrive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbsULpCM1so

Though keep in mind that there are certain characters even in SFIV that seem better for Smashers (Makoto, C. Viper).

Edit: one more thing about the Mewtwo vs. heavies discussion from before.

Take a look at this match that just happened at The Break Weekly: http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun/v/28974199?t=83m0s

Does that look like the way a heavy would play? Mewtwo hits like a heavy but moves and combos like a medium-weight, and spaces like a swordsman.

Heavies hit like heavies and space like swordies too. Jab and tilt spacing is really good on the heavies, given the safety and reward. The only characters they can't space out (based on range alone) are long range swordies like Ike and Shulk, and Rosa because she has sword-level disjoints for some reason.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think, for me personally, a lot of Ryu's difficulty comes from his A button activating specials as well.

Some people (like me) don't C-Stick every aerial they do (I use C-Stick Attack but I often don't C-Stick my aerials and this works with a lot of cast members just fine) and this is where controlling Ryu can be difficult. I also think this applies to anyone regardless of how often they C-Stick their aerials, should they use A at all. I tend to not C-Stick Fair or Bair a lot with anyone as the sensitivity for getting a Nair with the C-Stick on Attack is very finicky and I find doing an aerial on reaction with this method to be bad especially if I get my Nair instead of the Fair I desired.

Utilt to SRK isn't hard, but stuff like Dtilt and the Frame 2 moves are where it gets a bit more difficult. He's not the hardest thing in the world, but the most intuitive thing about him IMO is the spacing. The control scheme is kind of weird (especially A button specials.)

Just my two cents.

 

[Locke 06]

Ryu's counter-pokes becomes insane when you factor in his light Ftilt (frame 8-11) making his foot invincible for frames 6-11 and his heavy Utilt (frame 7-10) making his upper body invincible from frames 4-10. Add in his Shoryuken making him invincible from frames 3-5 regular or 1-6 input and you have a fighter who can poke you without much risk unlike say, Fox who could end up getting hit out of his vincible Ftilt and you have a fighter who will punish predictable aerials like no tomorrow. Bear in mind that his light Ftilt has a recovery like a jab and his heavy Utilt has the same active and recovery frames as Mario's Up Smash, a safe and spammable move, while being 2 frames faster on startup, but it is weaker by 2% and the hitbox is smaller, but the fact he has that option in addition to his Shoryuken, a fast and ridiculously low recovery light Utilt, and an Up Smash that resembles his heavy Utilt means Ryu has two invincible anti-airs, heavy Utilt and Shoryuken; 3 fast anti-airs: Utilt, Shoryuken, and heavy Utilt; and none of his 4 anti-air options are slower than frame 9. That's pretty much insane, but hey, it fits with aerial approaches in Street Fighter being risky, but rewarding. Against Ryu, landing an aerial is good, but messing up means you're going to die against him.

You're missing standing roundhouse (hard jab) as an anti-air. Also, light ftilt isn't really something I'd call a counter poke... It's his poke. His sweep (dsmash) is more of a counter poke, punishing extended hurtboxes.

In Ryu dittos, using dsmash to punish a whiffed hard dtilt/read light dtilt is basically saying, "You can't poke for free. And you have bad footsies. Come at me."

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel like people confuse Ryu's technicality and difficulty with his ceiling. He's in the upper half of the cast in terms of difficulty to learn, but it's not as grueling, as say, Melee Falco. He does have a skillcap, that I do agree with.

Fore example, a character like has a low ceiling. There isn't much super incredible about him. He has a nice list of tools for his gameplan. All you need is to know how these tools work and how to use them, and you pretty close to being ready to play optimally. Zard doesn't have quirky moves like Ryu. Zard doesn't have a lot of character-specific tech, and he likely never will. Ryu, however, is a different story. Ryu has plenty of tech and cool combos, and kill confirms, and all that jazzmatazz(thanks for letting that word get stuck in my head Wintropy! :3), and there's probably more on the way.

Characters like are having their metas developed faster than the rest of the cast, which I believe is what contributes to Ryu's illusion of "unforgiving difficulty".

Hey, but what do I know?

 

[Smog Frog]

meta is developing at an accelerated rate compared to the rest of the cast? explain.

 

[Dre89]

I feel like people confuse Ryu's technicality and difficulty with his ceiling. He's in the upper half of the cast in terms of difficulty to learn, but it's not as grueling, as say, Melee Falco. He does have a skillcap, that I do agree with.

Fore example, a character like has a low ceiling. There isn't much super incredible about him. He has a nice list of tools for his gameplan. All you need is to know how these tools work and how to use them, and you pretty close to being ready to play optimally. Zard doesn't have quirky moves like Ryu. Zard doesn't have a lot of character-specific tech, and he likely never will. Ryu, however, is a different story. Ryu has plenty of tech and cool combos, and kill confirms, and all that jazzmatazz(thanks for letting that word get stuck in my head Wintropy! :3), and there's probably more on the way.

Characters like are having their metas developed faster than the rest of the cast, which I believe is what contributes to Ryu's illusion of "unforgiving difficulty".

Hey, but what do I know?

The perception of difficulty comes from the fact that he plays differently to the rest of the cast due to his inputs. It's like how people think Rosa is hard to play because controlling Luna is fundamentally different to controlling other characters. But she's actually one of the easiest characters in the game once you learn how to control Luma because her options are basic and all of her strength is passive and in her ridiculous move data.

I don't think people realise how overtuned Rosa's move set is. She has kill power between mid weight and heavyweight in mid-weight frame data, but with Ike-Shulk level spacing capabilities.

Seriously, Rosa is like the only character in the game apart from Ike and Shulk who can beat out DK's aerial upb horizontally without using a counter. But she has Luma and way better frame data.

I could go on but there's too much to say. Nearly every move is ridiculously good considering she has a high priority, controllable killing wall as a tool.

 

[Nu~]

I feel like people confuse Ryu's technicality and difficulty with his ceiling. He's in the upper half of the cast in terms of difficulty to learn, but it's not as grueling, as say, Melee Falco. He does have a skillcap, that I do agree with.

Fore example, a character like has a low ceiling. There isn't much super incredible about him. He has a nice list of tools for his gameplan. All you need is to know how these tools work and how to use them, and you pretty close to being ready to play optimally. Zard doesn't have quirky moves like Ryu. Zard doesn't have a lot of character-specific tech, and he likely never will. Ryu, however, is a different story. Ryu has plenty of tech and cool combos, and kill confirms, and all that jazzmatazz(thanks for letting that word get stuck in my head Wintropy! :3), and there's probably more on the way.

Characters like are having their metas developed faster than the rest of the cast, which I believe is what contributes to Ryu's illusion of "unforgiving difficulty".

Hey, but what do I know?

How people continue to ignore the rapid meta revolution of Pac-Man is beyond me.

Then again, no one visits our thread. You can tell since you still have people saying **** like "Pac-Mains think they beat or go even with everyone!"
But hey, a few more years of people falling for day 1 pacman gimmicks is fine by me
You can still see it in the MD/VA region...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Seriously, Rosa is like the only character in the game apart from Ike and Shulk who can beat out DK's aerial upb horizontally without using a counter. But she has Luma and way better frame data.

uh

just about every character in the game can trade with it, and even in a favorable way depending on the situation

not to mention you're ignoring the other characters with disjoints that aren't Ike and Shulk

Smooth Criminal

 

[Dre89]

uh

just about every character in the game can trade with it, and even in a favorable way depending on the situation

not to mention you're ignoring the other characters with disjoints that aren't Ike and Shulk

Smooth Criminal

They can't really.

When you recover above stage, you just wait for them to jump offstage to gimp you and you can immediately upb and it'll beat out any attack except a counter. It has early super armour and I think the arms are intangible for some frames too. Other disjointed characters like Link and Marth can't beat it out if it's spaced properly.

The three characters I mentioned are the only ones who can just space an attack and beat it out.

I've played at least 2k games with the second best player in Australia and he still cannot gimp me after mid percents if I DI properly because all I have to do is react to his movement and it's practically free from there.

I only get gimped at mid percents if I DI poorly and go below the stage, because then I lose a lot of my mix up options. That's why DK is vulnerable at low percents, because he doesn't get enough knock back to work with. So he can get put in positions where he's vulnerable to spikes and doesn't have many mix up options.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

there's not a single viable character that's not difficult to learn really. The height of those characters' skill ceiling is a more useful discussion imo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It was said already but his difficulty lies in knowing all his options and how to counter poke. Get that down and his spacing and you are good to go. He is def the hardest top tier to master imo and win with. ZSS and Sheik are mindless imo compared to him and have easy panic answers to situations that Ryu does not. Oh and he has an actual disadvantage state unlike other top tiers though its still a very good disadvantage state it still takes thought on his part to get out of bad situations.

Once you hit a high level with him winning is def NOT hard though. Dude kills people at 80 and Sheik struggles to kill at 130. There is no comparison.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The perception of difficulty comes from the fact that he plays differently to the rest of the cast due to his inputs. It's like how people think Rosa is hard to play because controlling Luna is fundamentally different to controlling other characters. But she's actually one of the easiest characters in the game once you learn how to control Luma because her options are basic and all of her strength is passive and in her ridiculous move data.

I don't think people realise how overtuned Rosa's move set is. She has kill power between mid weight and heavyweight in mid-weight frame data, but with Ike-Shulk level spacing capabilities.

Seriously, Rosa is like the only character in the game apart from Ike and Shulk who can beat out DK's aerial upb horizontally without using a counter. But she has Luma and way better frame data.

I could go on but there's too much to say. Nearly every move is ridiculously good considering she has a high priority, controllable killing wall as a tool.

Rosalina herself is not overtuned IMO. Rosalina & Luma the character is. The distinction is important. Luma has an absurd amount of knockback for basically everything, possibly to (over)compensate for its low damage per hit since that does impact the formula. Rosalina does a lot of damage (especially that rapid jab, like wow) but she's not a huge threat when solo. (Luckily for us and unluckily for everyone else, she just needs to stall for 12-13 seconds to get her OP star pillow back.)

I agree that controlling the pair on a fundamental level is surprisingly simple, especially compared to more traditional puppet fighter archetypes. (I gave up trying to control Carl Clover or Shadow Labrys in like an hour each. Similarly, I could never get the hang of Ice Climber desynchs.) I attribute this to the fact that Luma doesn't have its own separate list of inputs -- it attacks when Rosalina does and that's it.

BTW if you want to stretch it, Rosalina can hit anyone from anywhere if she places Luma right. Saying she outranges someone isn't always a meaningful statement. Perks of being a puppet fighter? Although I'll assume you're referring to when the two are linked together.

Vaguely related but not really, a thought exercise. Currently Rosalina and Luma are split as the damage dealer and killer, respectively. How would you (general you, not anyone in particular) feel if the two switched roles, with Rosalina having oodles of KO power but weak damage, and Luma doing solid damage with everything but lacking real KO options? Assume everything else, e.g. frame data, hitboxes, Luma respawn mechanics, etc. stays the same.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And so, inspired by Sakurai's not-official translation on how characters are balanced by taking account a collection of traits shown on 1v1's, FFAs, and other game modes, I tried Duck Hunt at a smashfest last weekend.

It allowed me to try him on FFAs and Teams (2v2, 3v3, 3v4 because it happened), and with the prior experiences of 1v1s, Classic Mode, and Smash Tour, I was able to take data and form a couple conclusions.

He has decent mobility, but his Special moves are not too useful in chaotic environments, and neither against a single target who knows how to jump or attack.
The Can is not very good when it doesn't have a single target to weave around, it gets knocked too much and running to it may leave team partners and key items unprotected. With items it's like Diddy's Banana: negligible.
Clay Pigeon is similar, but much more linear.
Dog Jump is bad in singles, and worse in every other game mode. In singles you can at least use your second jump to aid your recovery from being intercepted. With more than just one threat, it's really dangerous to even be offstage.
Gunmen.... Well, rarely ever shoot.
All of that is without taking in account that almost all of his moves (aerials and Smashes) require very specific timing/spacing, and fall to the "useless" realm otherwise. Some of them are just too inconsistent to be any useful.

So in short, I have no idea how this character was balanced around, he's not good or remotely decent on any game mode (maybe vaguely annoying in some, to everyone, including his user) unlike characters like Zelda and DDD who *can* do stuff on more modes than 1v1.


All of that, of course, with 1111.
As far as 1v1s, ZigZag can changes the character completely and he can setup a strat depending on Giant or Quickdraw Gunmen, so he jumps to the "solid mid tier" squad. Though I am unsure on how he does on other modes as I was unable to test any sort of Customization.

Just wanted to share that.

 

[Lavani]

Vaguely related but not really, a thought exercise. Currently Rosalina and Luma are split as the damage dealer and killer, respectively. How would you (general you, not anyone in particular) feel if the two switched roles, with Rosalina having oodles of KO power but weak damage, and Luma doing solid damage with everything but lacking real KO options? Assume everything else, e.g. frame data, hitboxes, Luma respawn mechanics, etc. stays the same.

The current power dynamic keeps the reward low if Rosa's just sending Luma out by himself to harass you, unless you're at kill percents. Swap the numbers around and she gets no risk:high reward harassment, and once you're at ~100% it doesn't matter if the star's dead or not because she can just kill you herself. It'd be a poor change balance-wise, imo.

That may be underplaying the drop in damage output if the opponent keeps killing off Luma, but even with the current numbers Rosa is less inclined to attack without Luma's additional hitboxes and superior frame data anyway.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Rosalina herself is not overtuned IMO. Rosalina & Luma the character is. The distinction is important. Luma has an absurd amount of knockback for basically everything, possibly to (over)compensate for its low damage per hit since that does impact the formula. Rosalina does a lot of damage (especially that rapid jab, like wow) but she's not a huge threat when solo. (Luckily for us and unluckily for everyone else, she just needs to stall for 12-13 seconds to get her OP star pillow back.)

I agree that controlling the pair on a fundamental level is surprisingly simple, especially compared to more traditional puppet fighter archetypes. (I gave up trying to control Carl Clover or Shadow Labrys in like an hour each. Similarly, I could never get the hang of Ice Climber desynchs.) I attribute this to the fact that Luma doesn't have its own separate list of inputs -- it attacks when Rosalina does and that's it.

BTW if you want to stretch it, Rosalina can hit anyone from anywhere if she places Luma right. Saying she outranges someone isn't always a meaningful statement. Perks of being a puppet fighter? Although I'll assume you're referring to when the two are linked together.

Vaguely related but not really, a thought exercise. Currently Rosalina and Luma are split as the damage dealer and killer, respectively. How would you (general you, not anyone in particular) feel if the two switched roles, with Rosalina having oodles of KO power but weak damage, and Luma doing solid damage with everything but lacking real KO options? Assume everything else, e.g. frame data, hitboxes, Luma respawn mechanics, etc. stays the same.

How high is the skill ceiling for rosaluma?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How high is the skill ceiling for rosaluma?

In terms of tech skill, not very high at all. The most precise thing you really need to do is Lunar Landing, which is simply using an aerial a few frames before landing so that Rosalina autocancels without the attack ever coming out while Luma still does its own version. (Exact timing varies by aerial, fair is the most lenient.) Honestly, the fact that I consider myself a Rosalina main says a lot by itself, since I have little patience for grinding out the muscle memory required for fancy tech. On the other hand, I've gotten compliments on my edgeguarding and Luma placement.

Most of the skill in using Rosalina lies in manipulating Luma. Standing in place and jabbing away is one thing and easy enough to do, but sending Luma out to follow a juggle escape, or deliberately letting it fall to its death (not all the way) in order to put a hitbox well below the stage while still covering the ledge, or placing it just so in order to set up a one-person wombo combo, or just understanding how it will move around in general so you can plan a few seconds ahead -- that's where the real skill comes into play if you ask me. Is it more or less skill than what you'd need to get optimal punishes as ZSS, or consistently MALLC as Shulk, or master Ryu's various inputs? I don't know. It probably depends on what sort of gameplay you gravitate to in the first place.

EDIT: Also, because of how Luma works, I don't believe pivoting is as useful for Rosalina as it is for everyone else. Luma takes a moment to switch sides when Rosalina turns around, so pivot moves don't have as much range as usual due to Luma suddenly being a bit behind Rosalina instead of a bit in front. Similarly, running usmash has less horizontal range because Luma freezes in place the moment Rosalina starts the attack, while Rosalina herself slides forward a bit. (This also applies if Rosalina does any attack while on a moving platform.) This all assumes Rosalina and Luma are currently linked together. If Luma is detached or dead, it all becomes irrelevant.

 

[TriTails]

I don't think Ryu's inputs are hard at all. For a stronger Hadoken, 1/4th rotate the control stick from below to the right. Shakunetsu, from left to the right with 1/2th circle motion (below half). Tatsumaki is just Hadoken reversed.

Only thing that's not convenient is TSRK, requiring you to 'backtrack' a little on the control stick. And down-forward motion is fairly far to take control stick upward to.

Albeit, I have an inherent dislike on 'input 'insert directions here' then you press 'insert button here' in quick succession to do that attack!', so that may be just me.

EDIT: If we are talking about 'tap or hold' thing on the A button, those aren't hard either.

 

[Mario766]

...Shoryu motion is forward down diagonal down forward.

Also since when did you ever have to push up to Shoryu.

Forward Down Down Forward A is TSRK.

 

[TriTails]

...Shoryu motion is forward down diagonal down forward.

Whoops.

Suppose I remembered it wrong then. Edited.

(...Then what are these random Tatsumakis I've been doing when I flub the motion? Must be in the middle of down-forward to up)

 

[Mario766]

How do you ever get a Tatsu doing a Shoryu motion.

You never even go near back diagonal or back.

 

[TriTails]

How do you ever get a Tatsu doing a Shoryu motion.

You never even go near back diagonal or back.

It's when after I have inputted the Shoryu motion, then on my way up (Because I hug the edge of the control stick, I press B too early and get an uninputted Tatsu. My fingers also refuse to use the A button for whatever reasons I try it.

Yeah. I'm wierd :/. Still learning Ryu and didn't know you don't have to push up to Shoryu.

 

[Dre89]

Rosalina herself is not overtuned IMO. Rosalina & Luma the character is. The distinction is important. Luma has an absurd amount of knockback for basically everything, possibly to (over)compensate for its low damage per hit since that does impact the formula. Rosalina does a lot of damage (especially that rapid jab, like wow) but she's not a huge threat when solo. (Luckily for us and unluckily for everyone else, she just needs to stall for 12-13 seconds to get her OP star pillow back.)

I agree that controlling the pair on a fundamental level is surprisingly simple, especially compared to more traditional puppet fighter archetypes. (I gave up trying to control Carl Clover or Shadow Labrys in like an hour each. Similarly, I could never get the hang of Ice Climber desynchs.) I attribute this to the fact that Luma doesn't have its own separate list of inputs -- it attacks when Rosalina does and that's it.

BTW if you want to stretch it, Rosalina can hit anyone from anywhere if she places Luma right. Saying she outranges someone isn't always a meaningful statement. Perks of being a puppet fighter? Although I'll assume you're referring to when the two are linked together.

Vaguely related but not really, a thought exercise. Currently Rosalina and Luma are split as the damage dealer and killer, respectively. How would you (general you, not anyone in particular) feel if the two switched roles, with Rosalina having oodles of KO power but weak damage, and Luma doing solid damage with everything but lacking real KO options? Assume everything else, e.g. frame data, hitboxes, Luma respawn mechanics, etc. stays the same.

I think people underestimate how good Rosaloner is. Rosaloner is still a good character because she still has good hitboxes and frame data. The opponent will always want to approach to capitalise on the lack of luma, which alleviates a lot of her mobility problems. If she were just a solo character, then she'd be a fair bit worse because there wouldn't be as much of a burden to approach her. But in the context of the opponent having/wanting to approach she's still better than quite a lot of characters.

As for swapping properties, doing so would make her more like a traditional camper. Projectile campers tend to be able to rack up damage safely from range, but are normally reliant on shorter range options for killing (think toon link with usmash and fair). Every character with that model is a lot more balanced than Rosa is.

 

[Ghostbone]

So in short, I have no idea how this character was balanced around, he's not good or remotely decent on any game mode (maybe vaguely annoying in some, to everyone, including his user) unlike characters like Zelda and DDD who *can* do stuff on more modes than 1v1.

He's pretty dumb on wifi at low skill levels.

Don't you remember release 3DS days where people thought duck hunt was top 3 because it's pretty hard to get past constant projectile spam with input lag (plus people didn't really know his properties).

 

[Djmarcus44]

They can't really.

When you recover above stage, you just wait for them to jump offstage to gimp you and you can immediately upb and it'll beat out any attack except a counter. It has early super armour and I think the arms are intangible for some frames too. Other disjointed characters like Link and Marth can't beat it out if it's spaced properly.

The three characters I mentioned are the only ones who can just space an attack and beat it out.

I've played at least 2k games with the second best player in Australia and he still cannot gimp me after mid percents if I DI properly because all I have to do is react to his movement and it's practically free from there.

I only get gimped at mid percents if I DI poorly and go below the stage, because then I lose a lot of my mix up options. That's why DK is vulnerable at low percents, because he doesn't get enough knock back to work with. So he can get put in positions where he's vulnerable to spikes and doesn't have many mix up options.

Characters such as Mii Gunner can use projectiles to beat out DK's up b. 1111 gunner can just use flame pillar to beat out the up b, and 3312 gunner can drop a grenade, missile or bomb on top of the up b (the lingering hitboxes of the projectiles will outlast the intangible frames of DK's up b. Also, the grounded version of DK's up b is the only one with Superarmor).

 

[Dre89]

Characters such as Mii Gunner can use projectiles to beat out DK's up b. 1111 gunner can just use flame pillar to beat out the up b, and 3312 gunner can drop a grenade, missile or bomb on top of the up b (the lingering hitboxes of the projectiles will outlast the intangible frames of DK's up b. Also, the grounded version of DK's up b is the only one with Superarmor).

How are you getting above DK so easily when he's above stage? A good DK will always recover high after mid percents and only go low depending on what the opponent is doing.

Also I confused super armour for intangibility. I know it beats out some projectiles, but I don't know which ones it loses to, if any.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In terms of tech skill, not very high at all. The most precise thing you really need to do is Lunar Landing, which is simply using an aerial a few frames before landing so that Rosalina autocancels without the attack ever coming out while Luma still does its own version. (Exact timing varies by aerial, fair is the most lenient.) Honestly, the fact that I consider myself a Rosalina main says a lot by itself, since I have little patience for grinding out the muscle memory required for fancy tech. On the other hand, I've gotten compliments on my edgeguarding and Luma placement.

Most of the skill in using Rosalina lies in manipulating Luma. Standing in place and jabbing away is one thing and easy enough to do, but sending Luma out to follow a juggle escape, or deliberately letting it fall to its death (not all the way) in order to put a hitbox well below the stage while still covering the ledge, or placing it just so in order to set up a one-person wombo combo, or just understanding how it will move around in general so you can plan a few seconds ahead -- that's where the real skill comes into play if you ask me. Is it more or less skill than what you'd need to get optimal punishes as ZSS, or consistently MALLC as Shulk, or master Ryu's various inputs? I don't know. It probably depends on what sort of gameplay you gravitate to in the first place.

EDIT: Also, because of how Luma works, I don't believe pivoting is as useful for Rosalina as it is for everyone else. Luma takes a moment to switch sides when Rosalina turns around, so pivot moves don't have as much range as usual due to Luma suddenly being a bit behind Rosalina instead of a bit in front. Similarly, running usmash has less horizontal range because Luma freezes in place the moment Rosalina starts the attack, while Rosalina herself slides forward a bit. (This also applies if Rosalina does any attack while on a moving platform.) This all assumes Rosalina and Luma are currently linked together. If Luma is detached or dead, it all becomes irrelevant.

Well skill ceiling isn't just techs or w/e, it's just basically how hard it is to optimize characters.

 

[outfoxd]

He's pretty dumb on wifi at low skill levels.

Don't you remember release 3DS days where people thought duck hunt was top 3 because it's pretty hard to get past constant projectile spam with input lag (plus people didn't really know his properties).

That's unfortunate if the reason he hasn't caught a break is because of early impressions like that.

I didn't get to play 3Ds, did villager and megaman not elicit the same reactions?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I really feel Duck Hunt is balanced completely around Zig-Zag Shot. Zig-Zag Shot lets him escape all kinds of trouble (like being grabbed), he has the best frame data in the game for dodges, and his normals in practice are disjoints so he can control all kinds of space. He struggles to kill more than literally any other character which holds him back a lot, but he can assert control and make himself just impossible to hit in a rewarding way better than anyone else so he's a high learning curve but high value character played that way. Without Zig-Zag Shot, you just get behind the can and focus on baiting him to do something unsafe, knowing you have lots of tries since the character has a horrible time finishing stocks so if you don't do anything dumb you likely live to 200% against him. It's really hard to pick up though; I can't make Zig-Zag Shot work for me well at all, but I watched Thinkaman just dominate space with the thing and can see that it's fundamentally one of the best moves in the game that is effectively the character defining attribute for Duck Hunt. He can probably tell you more detail.

I really feel like I'm in a twilight zone where Rosalina is an easy, overtuned character. Rosalina is good sure, but man, this character is not forgiving to play at all. Rosalina basically completely depends on exerting control over the match to win. While she's doing this successfully she's really oppressive and generally super good. Hitting with both characters does tons of damage and knockback with incredible range and average speed on pretty much everything so it's a beautiful thing. When this is NOT going well, it's really easy to just get blown up. Basic defensive options with other characters are the "watch Luma get hit" options with Rosalina, and when you are not winning the spatial control battle or when Luma is out of position (or worse dead!) basically every button she has is too slow and too unsafe to force your opponent back to the defense which means you have to be making solid reads just to avoid being mauled. If Rosalina is already losing and needs to go in to make a comeback, she's really bad at it since her stuff is only safe if she is playing the slower and more careful spatial control game, and her movement specs really aren't very good for moving in anyway. Winning with Rosalina requires being able to seize and maintain momentum for extended periods of time mostly through really sound spatial control, and even then, you'll realistically still lose Luma several times per game which results in your opponent having incredible momentum against you that very much can and will continue after Luma respawns unless you do something smart to buy a little time and re-exert control. If you make mistakes with Rosalina (even small ones), it's really easy to end up in a terrible position in a hurry, and once you're in a terrible position with her, it's really hard to claw your way back out of it. There's a lot to be said about this style of character and there's no doubt she can be very effective, but what I can't see is how it's anything but really difficult to play. I believe the general tournament results with her that show "she can do some big winning, but mostly just by people who have put a lot of time into her" are pretty accurate at reflecting this.

 

[Yikarur]

Beast 6 allows the "optimal" sets for every Mii instead of 1111.

Mii Brawler 2122
Mii Gunner 3122
Mii Swordie 2131

It's at least one step in the right direction. Full custom should be standard but using the approximately best sets is at least a compromise

 

[Routa]

Mii Swordie 2131

Side-B 1

K.

Edit: I will reason this post later... Unless Antonykun does it first.

 

[Nobie]

Heavies hit like heavies and space like swordies too. Jab and tilt spacing is really good on the heavies, given the safety and reward. The only characters they can't space out (based on range alone) are long range swordies like Ike and Shulk, and Rosa because she has sword-level disjoints for some reason.

I meant a more mobile swordsman, like Marth, which overlaps with some heavies (DK, Bowser, Charizard) but not others. Literally the heavyweights simply do not have the movement control that Mewtwo has, which changes how they're played. Basically, Mewtwo's playstyle only partly resembles a heavyweight's. You can't leave out or trivialize things like Shadow Ball, like Confusion, like the ability to space and then go into a high-speed juggle because Mewtwo has the third fastest air speed in the game.

Side-B 1

K.

Edit: I will reason this post later... Unless Antonykun does it first.

At least Swordfighter doesn't slide off the stage and die from Side-B 1 anymore.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'll do it.

Swordfighter's Side B 1 and 2 are not very good moves.

Side B1 goes sailing at weird, self-endangering angles. Not nearly as bad since the patch as it USED to be, but still pretty bad. Side B 2 often won't grab the ledge if it hits an enemy along the way, due to some kind of very lengthy recovery time on it. It's like Ike's Brawl recovery in some ways.

Conversely, Side B 3 gives you an aimable projectile that has varying speeds and distances, some of which can be used as combo starters. While giving up a recovery option on Swordfighter hurts, losing this excellent projectile hurts more.

Chakram should be Swordfighter's choice.

EDIT: Also, Rainbow/Reversal Slash should be the Down-B choice. Counter has its uses, but the 'cape slash' is more useful more often.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea duck hunt makes a looot of sense with zigzag and gives him the actual 50/50s and potent option coverage the top tiers get. His awkward kit just shines so perfectly with it, if they didn't do some serious considering of it when balancing him I'd be really surprised. Even his awful smashes become stupid good because zigzag can come back and cover you while in endlag.

 

[Antonykun]

Edit: I will reason this post later... Unless Antonykun does it first.

Fine

Aerial Assault is a very predictable move as either an attack or a recovery. Swordfighter starts the move with an audible "PING" sound and travels rather slowly especially compared to Bouncing Fish or Flip Jump/Kick. It looks really good against someone who doesn't understand the move but after a while all sorts of moves intercept it heck just getting hit by that move can even edguard it as Swordfighter goes into free fall straight afterwards.

If I were to be given a choice the three specials I would do chakram as It's easily Swordfighter's most versatile move with the angling and fast/slow mechanics

 

[Pazzo.]

My 2 cents on Ryu:

While I don't find his inputs difficult, I've played SF2 before, and know the basic three inputs required for Ryu's specials. I'm a bit biased because I love that game.

 

[Mili]

In all honesty, I don't think any character in this game is actually "hard" to play, especially when compared to something like Melee. Nonetheless, there are characters that take much more effort and have a higher skill cap than others. This obviously depends on the character's meta and their general playstyle, whether it is straightforward (such as ) or pretty complicated. Within the spectrum of Smash 4, I would say Ryu is one of the hardest to play and I agree with Emblem Lord that is the hardest top tier character to master and optimize. A lot of people say "oh well his inputs are simple, people just haven't played fighting games." And I have two responses to this. The first is, EXACTLY. There are plenty of people who have no experience in any other fighting games except for Super Smash Bros., and this makes it difficult to pickup Ryu and play him at a decent level when compared to other characters. The other argument I often see is that they're super simple and "pro SF players to it all the time", but there is a critical flaw within this argument. They do these inputs as standard agenda in a completely different fighting game style. A type of game where you can kill with poking move sand perfect spacing, something you simply cannot do in Smash. No matter how much you want it to, light D-Tilt won't kill an opponent at 999% whereas it can kill someone in Street Fighter.

This dynamic is something I really shouldn't have to point out but I think it's important when looking at the context of Ryu's play. The character has so many options (more than any other character in the game) and you can literally see the difference between mid-level and high-level Ryu play, something I don't believe you can distinctly point out for other characters. Furthermore, the basic inputs aren't the problem but combine them with B-reversing and the completely different movement style of Smash changes their dynamic, in my opinion. Using a Focus Attack and ending up behind your opponent requires you to input TSRK and press or , then reverse it the other way to hit them. When you're both at 120% this is a VERY scary thing because one whiff means bye-bye.

I'd also like to point out that Ryu really isn't that safe one shield and has to be pretty careful how he approaches. N-Air is a fantastic option but it's still punishable unlike some other things.


I just feel like people both overestimate and underestimate the skill cap on . I don't think you need TAS levels of skill to master the character (freaking ), but he is by far and away not a braindead or simple character. On a side note, I am obviously bias because I main Ryu but these are my honest opinions.