Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Zelder]

Sheik is a kinged checkers piece and everyone else is just a pawn.

 

[Sonicninja115]

@Pazx, do you know whether guest Brawler can perform dthrow->fair/uair->upb with rage? I feel like this combo is huge for tiny Brawler to confirm kills without incredibly situational grabs by the ledge, and guest Brawler not being able to do this hampers him greatly. Not sure if rage would be enough for this combo to work.

I used to co-main tiny Brawler back when customs were legal, and made it out of EVO round 1 pools with the character (not saying much because most round 1 pools were free, but it's something). I think the character is easily top 10 if he remained legal, but probably not top 3 since I don't think the character's strengths can make up fully for his lack of range and problems killing outside of combo percentages. This character's meta is super underdeveloped IMO. His frame data and mobility are amazing, and I feel his combo game could go much deeper than dthrow->aerial->upb, which was basically all anyone was doing at the time. Likewise, the character has an amazing perfect pivot, dance trot, sliding pivot, SHAD, and some other situational sliding tech which were not incorporated into his neutral game back when he was legal. Of course, this meta development will likely never happen because tiny Brawler is banned basically everywhere, and I highly doubt this ban will ever be lifted.

Edit: Guys could we stop this chess analogy now?

Technically it is within the parameters of the topic.

What are people's thoughts on KK right now? Was he overhyped?

 

[Pazzo.]

Chess and Smash.

This is my new favorite thread.

 

[DunnoBro]

The analogy was mostly relevant to duck hunt because he has poor standard options and is all gimmicks.

In terms of chess, I'd say the pieces align in this way:

Pawns = Can benefit from losses of neutral (Generally heavies or good rage mode characters. Pawn amount is separate from head piece amount.)
Rooks = Rushdown
Knights = Gimmicks
Bishops = Zoner
Queens = Option Coverage
Kings = Vulnerabilities (traditionally 1 King. Though characters like mac or ness could have more)

Ike would probably be a mix of pawns, and rooks. Maybe 1 bishop to exemplify his range.

Sheik would be queens, rooks, and bishops. ZSS would have hella pawns but only rooks.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

D3 is a King AND a Pawn? ****, toss in his Gordos as Queens and Knights and the analogy is complete.

Smooth Criminal

 

[thehard]

This was brought to my attention in a reddit thread: Bowser's up-air is frames 3-13 intangible (hitbox is active 9-13). Bowser mains and enthusiasts, does this give him a pseudo-combo breaker à la Mario Bros. n-air against certain setups? The clip in question was him powering through a Bouncing Fish (the video itself was a dumb joke), so does Bowser actually have something against Sheik?

 

[DunnoBro]

The sheik didn't shorten it properly, but yea frame 3-aerials like that break through it if they don't.

At the percents it stops being a true combo even with proper shortening, he'll be too high to hit her I think. (Especially with rage i.e when it'd kill her)

 

[Pazzo.]

Robin could be Queens, Bishops, Knights, and some Pawns.

Option coverage, Zoning, Tome/Levin usage, and a few tricky neutral techs.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

None of those really fit Kirby I don't think. Hes not a pawn (doesn' want to lose neutral because of gimpable recovery and bad landing options), hes not a rook (Def not rushdown lmao) he isn't a zoner (weak range and no mobility and no projectile), he also isn't a knight (no gimmicks apart from hup-cancelling really), and he doesn't cover options (mobility means it is hard to cover roll aways and a small ranged grab makes punishing get-up attacks hard for example)

I guess Kirby is a king. A lot of Kings, like his entire side of the board is of King.

 

[TDK]

In terms of Chess Analogy, Zelda is interesting because within the analogy itself there isn't a piece for Out of Shield options. So, I'm clumping that under knights.

She's not a pawn, but once she loses neutral she gets comboed due to extremely slow moves.

She's not a Rook, Rushdown Zelda doesn't work.

Out of all of these, she's most Bishop-like. She has Nayru's love to throw projectiles back and Din's Fire and the Phantom to at least try and keep people out. Her moves aren't fast up close or far away, and the Up-B is only a surprise kill with the second hit or Farore's Elevator. Her nait, up-tilt, jab, dash attack, and down tilt are all passable "get away from me" moves, and her Kicks and Dair can score some very early kills if you sweetspot.

She's also decently knight-like, with a lot of her moves being slow and situational.

She's not a queen. Option covearge is bleh.

She's a lot of Kings, with knights and bishops thrown in for good measure.

 

[Teshie U]

This was brought to my attention in a reddit thread: Bowser's up-air is frames 3-13 intangible (hitbox is active 9-13). Bowser mains and enthusiasts, does this give him a pseudo-combo breaker à la Mario Bros. n-air against certain setups? The clip in question was him powering through a Bouncing Fish (the video itself was a dumb joke), so does Bowser actually have something against Sheik?

Isn't it just his upper body being invincible? Unless you are being strung from above, you won't really escape anything. Its just meant to power through down airs.

 

[LightLV]

why are we still doing chess analogies

i dont play chess

 

[Pazzo.]

why are we still doing chess analogies

i dont play chess

Because we like chess and Smash.

Both revolve around a strategic core of analysis and execution...

 

[thehard]

My chess instructor in 3rd grade had one arm.

 

[Pazzo.]

My chess instructor in 3rd grade had one arm.

And...?

I don't think you can play Smash with one arm.

 

[outfoxd]

why are we still doing chess analogies

i dont play chess

Don't look at me.

I was talking about boxing.

 

[Mario766]

This was brought to my attention in a reddit thread: Bowser's up-air is frames 3-13 intangible (hitbox is active 9-13). Bowser mains and enthusiasts, does this give him a pseudo-combo breaker à la Mario Bros. n-air against certain setups? The clip in question was him powering through a Bouncing Fish (the video itself was a dumb joke), so does Bowser actually have something against Sheik?

Doesn't change him from being juggled, as it's only on his head. That's his bigger problem.

 

[Spinosaurus]

And...?

I don't think you can play Smash with one arm.

You'd be surprised. Look up Brolylegs.

Anyway, I'm gonna have to ask to keep the chess stuff down. You're getting way off tangent here all from a small analogy.

 

[LancerStaff]

And...?

I don't think you can play Smash with one arm.

You can easily with a Wiimote taped to a Nunchuck. C, Z, and B become attack, shield and special and you keep tap jump on.

Buuuut we're still off course...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

None of those really fit Kirby I don't think. Hes not a pawn (doesn' want to lose neutral because of gimpable recovery and bad landing options), hes not a rook (Def not rushdown lmao) he isn't a zoner (weak range and no mobility and no projectile), he also isn't a knight (no gimmicks apart from hup-cancelling really), and he doesn't cover options (mobility means it is hard to cover roll aways and a small ranged grab makes punishing get-up attacks hard for example)

I guess Kirby is a king. A lot of Kings, like his entire side of the board is of King.

How about a gimped rook? Since all of his strength is in close quarters and he has a strong boxing game.
EDIT: just read the rest of you guys' post. Cutting it off from now on.

 

[Vipermoon]

This was brought to my attention in a reddit thread: Bowser's up-air is frames 3-13 intangible (hitbox is active 9-13). Bowser mains and enthusiasts, does this give him a pseudo-combo breaker à la Mario Bros. n-air against certain setups? The clip in question was him powering through a Bouncing Fish (the video itself was a dumb joke), so does Bowser actually have something against Sheik?

Well it's not the same. I'm guessing only his head is intangible. And what if Bowser lands before frame 9 (and takes a lot of landing lag for nothing)? A lot of combo breakers are right above the ground.

But that makes it a great anti air.

 

[Y2Kay]

You'd be surprised. Look up Brolylegs.

Wow, I wonder how he plays the game with his mouth? Such determination is incredible.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

And...?

I don't think you can play Smash with one arm.

This guy named Toez in Toronto uses one hand and one foot to play. He sits on the floor to play. He's a good Mario main too so yeah you can play with one arm lol

How about a gimped rook? Since all of his strength is in close quarters and he has a strong boxing game.
EDIT: just read the rest of you guys' post. Cutting it off from now on.

Rook is rush down, Kirby should be playing the OPPOSITE of rushdown.

 

[C0rvus]

Bowser's up smash is an even better anti-air. You don't have to leave the ground (which is a big no-no for Bowser) and it hits harder and has invulnerability as well.

 

[Crudele]

All that chess talk and no Robin "checkmate" jokes. What a waste.

Yeah, so on topic. Can anyone shed some insight on just how important multihit moves are in matchups against Ryu? Someone here described their frustration when people say stuff like "Shulk beats Wario because range." I feel like I see a lot of that logic when people discuss Ryu, as if he's just chilling there randomly throwing out FA.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This guy named Toez in Toronto uses one hand and one foot to play. He sits on the floor to play. He's a good Mario main too so yeah you can play with one arm lol


Rook is rush down, Kirby should be playing the OPPOSITE of rushdown.

Which is turtling, which Kirby can not do at all. He has to be played like a Zangief in a way, w/o the weight bonus.

 

[G. Stache]

Isn't it just his upper body being invincible? Unless you are being strung from above, you won't really escape anything. Its just meant to power through down airs.

I think it's just his head, but yeah. Not that I don't love talking about one handed smash players or anything...but what's the general consensus on bowser? I feel as if his strong moves are like Ganon's in that he always needs to be given respect. Granted I'd say Ganon's moves deserve a tad more respect, but bowser actually has a form of neutral game to back himself up. Plus his placement relative to everybody else seems totally skewed. Some people think he's bottom 5, while others believe him to be solid mid tier. Any thoughts on the matter?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Which is turtling, which Kirby can not do at all. He has to be played like a Zangief in a way, w/o the weight bonus.

Why?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

It's certainly a useful feature to have, particularly if your character doesn't have any real disjoints or good frame data to back them up when hitting him out of FA. But I agree that's a big simplification of the match-up.

(Oh hey here I go talking about Dedede again)

Dedede vs Ryu is interesting to me because, I think when you look at all the data Ryu wins the match-up, and pretty solidly at that, but it isn't a particularly bad match-up for Dedede either. He has a big beefy stick to poke at Ryu from a distance and is amazing (relatively) at trapping Ryu's landings. He can't really fall to the ground against Dedede, as uair chews through FA and is also a good air dodge catcher. If Dedede is in the general vicinity Ryu is NOT going to land as long as Dedede plays well. And even from a distance, an over-commitment to FA will be met by a Gordo which can rebound off of Ryu and strike him again.

Having these sorts of tools and being able to exploit some of his weaknesses allow characters with otherwise bad match-ups to keep Ryu in check, and can potentially make life more difficult when fighting against good characters (such as Sheik). But I don't really see how it would make the match-up GOOD, just less difficult. Ryu is still a good character with awesome frame data and kill potential.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why?

he can't turtle well Because he lacks long range on majority of his normals (I believe they have intangible stuff on his feet, correct me if I'm wrong idk fully). He has to be close to his opponent to maximize his strengths, but he's slow as dirt. This sounds similar to Zangief in SF because he was slow and had to be close to his opponent as well. Kirby has to play a patient approach (he sucks at it heavily) and use shield to get close and stuff. But, that's my thoughts and If I'm wrong, then sorry.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Which is turtling, which Kirby can not do at all. He has to be played like a Zangief in a way, w/o the weight bonus.

Kirby can turtle pretty well as long as a) they don't have a projectile and b) you're winning. The main strategy that you should be doing against Kirby is trying to turtle, but if they don't do that then Kirby gets to which is awesome.

 

[Sonicninja115]

If they do anything unsafe on shield, Kirby has rather fast tilts right? and Utilt combos?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Kirby can turtle pretty well as long as a) they don't have a projectile and b) you're winning. The main strategy that you should be doing against Kirby is trying to turtle, but if they don't do that then Kirby gets to which is awesome.

You're right.

 

[Locke 06]

This was brought to my attention in a reddit thread: Bowser's up-air is frames 3-13 intangible (hitbox is active 9-13). Bowser mains and enthusiasts, does this give him a pseudo-combo breaker à la Mario Bros. n-air against certain setups? The clip in question was him powering through a Bouncing Fish (the video itself was a dumb joke), so does Bowser actually have something against Sheik?

There have been a lot of confused posts about this. I'd like clarification. Is it full body or partial (head/upper body) intangibility or invincibility?

 

[Lavani]

There have been a lot of confused posts about this. I'd like clarification. Is it full body or partial (head/upper body) intangibility or invincibility?

It's head intangibility.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wow. Didn't know so many people here played chess....

If you play fighting games, you play Chess.

Whether you ever sat down in front of a board or not.

 

[Mario766]

Do people even read KuroganeHammer anymore?

It literally says 'Head Intangibility' on it.

Kirby can't really 'turtle' with his super weak mobility. You can try to wait for punishable actions but with your low mobility you are the one usually forced to do something.

Talking about Bowser, the main things are that he really can't land, his moves aren't fast and he's combo food.

Not a good combo. His fastest move is frame 6, at Whirling Fortress.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

KeithTheGeek

To expand a bit:

I think where the D3/Ryu MU falls apart is around the time where Ryu gets to play his pressure game. Midrange we're pretty ok, sure, but once Ryu's in it's super tough. D3 doesn't have any solid reversals/OoS options up close (even after powershielding, though that's MU dependent), so his best option usually is to time a roll---which, as we all know, can be dicey at times. One bad call in these situations and you're almost a combo video, basically.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Wintermelon43]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand Chess here?

Also, this is people's opinions on Ryu matchups

Top tiers (Expect for Sheik and ZSS): Ryu beats them 65:35

Middle, low, and bottom tiers:Ryu loses to them 35:65

 

[Locke 06]

It's head intangibility.

Ty Loki.

This won't help him get out of juggles at all, since Sheik FAir/other moves will go through the head and hit his body. Unless they're spaced weirdly where shrinking his giant hurtbox to a normal sized one allows him to avoid a hit.

Do people even read KuroganeHammer anymore?

It literally says 'Head Intangibility' on it.

Your horses are running. You should probably hold them.

It's obvious not many people knew about this property of his up air, and there was confusion by multiple people. To my knowledge, intangible/invincibility is still not fully documented for various reasons. Tone aside, thanks for the confirmation.