Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo has a neutral game that is considerably better than all of the heavyweight characters that you have mentioned because of his projectile, reflector, and air speed. On the other hand, Mewtwo's disadvantage state would be helped by an increase in weight (In my opinion, Mewtwo could be a solid mid tier character if he had average weight). The main tools that I know that Mewtwo has to compensate for his weight are teleporting to the ground (teleport can cancel on platforms) and a really good airdodge.

I mean, shadow ball and confusion alone pretty much eliminate, or at least greatly reduce the burden of approaching heavies usually have to endure, leaving him free to capitalize on his punish game.

As for the mewtwo being a heavy thing, imagine how game breaking it would be if DK had shadow ball... or any of the heavies with shadow ball and a reflector.

Also, bowser and DK are way easier to gimp than mewtwo, no question.

It's not just that it's difficult to edgeguard Mewtwo offstage, it also can be downright hazardous to do so. At best he'll simply teleport past you and take the stage immediately, or he could counter-edgeguard you by stage-spiking with bair. This also means his own edgeguarding is a cut above too. You have no idea how handy it is to be able to bait airdodges with shadow balls.

 

[J-Lit]

I recently started playing my custom mii brawler and was wondering how legit unrestricted miis are? I remember brawler getting a lot of attention back in the 3ds days for stuff like helicopter kick but no one really talks about him anymore. Anyways how good do you guys think unrestricted mii brawler is with small size and best custom set? Could he possibly be high tier?

 

[Vyrnx]

As for the mewtwo being a heavy thing, imagine how game breaking it would be if DK had shadow ball... or any of the heavies with shadow ball and a reflector.

Also, bowser and DK are way easier to gimp than mewtwo, no question.

Not to disagree for the sake of argument, but Samus is pretty close to what you're describing and definitely isn't broken. Obviously there won't be changes to character weights, but if Mewtwo's weight were hypothetically increased, it definitely wouldn't break him. I know you're saying, "with a reflector," too, but that still wouldn't be enough.

Mewtwo would be significantly better with higher weight, especially with his kill throw taken into account. But while his weight holds him back now, his size, speed, lack of approaches, and poor landing options probably hold him back more.

 

[Nobie]

People here say that others exaggerate how much his weight holds him back, but I don't see what he has to compensate for it.

Most of the pros people mention are not exclusive to him. Most of the heavies have all the pros he has, but they also weigh a lot more. Bowser, Charizard, and DK all have good range, good damage output, and comparable frame data to Mewtwo on their neutral tools.

Their reward on hit is comparable to his or better. DK's lowest reward out of grab is 23%, and Bowser can do similar damage out of a jab, which also happens to be his primary spacing tool.

His ability to escape is combos in exchange for dying earlier is not a positive trade-off in Sm4sh because he doesn't get to utilise rage as much. Rage is huge for heavies because it can turn tilts and decently fast aerials into kill moves.

Most of the heavies also have good recoveries in this game, so he doesn't really have that over them either. DK's recovery is very good once you get to mid and gets even better as he gets higher. Charizard has three jumps and super armour on vertical and horizontal recoveries. Bowser's is just a worse version of DK's, but it's not terrible.

The only thing Mewtwo has over them is a good projectile and a reflector. That would only be a meaningful advantage in a few match ups though.

To me, he's just a heavy without the weight.

You're basically isolating every little thing without looking at the big picture when it comes to Mewtwo. Every heavy is pretty unique from their counterparts. Charizard has multiple jumps and super armor, DK has a lot of mobility and insane grab rewards, Bowser has a solid neutral game and benefits from rage, etc. But Charizard suffers from slow aerial mobility, DK and Bowser have trouble landing, and so on and so forth. They all have tools in neutral but suffer in different ways.

Mewtwo's strength in mobility isn't just about escaping combos, it's about escaping at all. While he suffers from poor aerial acceleration, the ability to mix things up with Confusion, B-Reverses, arguably the best air dodge in the game, AND Teleport, on top of great max air speed, huge jumps, and more, means he's both good at edgeguarding deep AND good at avoiding edgeguarding of all kinds.

Mewtwo lacks a truly fast move (quickest are Frame 6), but they're all quick for the amount of damage they do and the range that they have. Frame 7 fair is absurdly strong for a move of its kind. Tilts are sword-ranged, and d-tilt is a fantastic move that can quickly net a comfortable 20+% without much effort. Jab leads into guaranteed setups. Side-B's strength isn't JUST that it's a reflector, it's that it's a long-range command grab + reflector that leads into mixups. Throws are multi-function, creating distance to let Mewtwo establish the pace of the match while also dealing high damage per throw and eventually transforming into kill throws. People talk about how Mewtwo's throws don't combo properly but that's not their purpose.

It's also weird for you to say that Shadow Ball is only meaningful in a "few" matchups. Take any character, not just the heavies, but the light ones, the swordsmen, the combo characters. Now, tell their players that they could get a chargeable projectile that has low recovery, can set up kills when uncharged, and is pretty much the strongest practical projectile in the game. Do you think it would really benefit only a "few" matchups?

Mewtwo might not be among the upper half of the character roster, but it's important to understand that he also doesn't function like other characters, game plan-wise. He's not about slow, methodical reads like heavies, he's not about overwhelming rushdown either. He's someone who has to swing into ranges of both, alternating between playing a spacing-heavy neutral game, into combos and 50/50s, into a full retreat when the time is needed. I mean, I think the best way I can describe this is that Mewtwo's game plan changes enormously depending on the opponent he's facing, and it's because he has a full range of tools no other character has, but takes the most punishment for using them incorrectly.

 

[Megamang]

As for the mewtwo being a heavy thing, imagine how game breaking it would be if DK had shadow ball... or any of the heavies with shadow ball and a reflector.

Also, bowser and DK are way easier to gimp than mewtwo, no question.

 

[Locke 06]

Semi-relevant and not just foolishly self promoting my own work in the mechanics thread. >.>

For throws that have weight dependent frame data, the lighter your opponent is, the more shifted the frame advantage is in favor of the aggressor.

Aka, light characters get true combo'd harder with the same amount of knockback/hitstun than heavier characters when dealing with weight dependent throws. One example of this is Captain Falcon's dthrow (knee).

 

[Jaguar360]

Out of interest, who're the best US Greninjas right now? I honestly can't think of any of note.

I noticed that Gibus placed 9/240 at TGC with Greninja and Lucario this weekend. I had watched him play at some Tourney Locator tournaments before and he seemed pretty solid. He's probably the best southern US Greninja. But yeah, Techei and NinjaLink too like Fullmoon said.

 

[Knife8193]

He's more of a Lucario player than a Greninja player. I don't think he won any notable matches with Greninja there (I was also in attendance). HIs Greninja is pretty good, but I'd say his Lucario is on a whole different level.

 

[Luco]

So Marth needs to play like some..intelligent master swordsman who comes from a long line of master swordsmen? Using his brain to methodically shut down advances with oppressive footsies. Kinda like..a strategy game?

Yo this is crazy stuff mang.

Mind = BLOWN!!!!

I know right?? I was surprised too!

Aside from calling out my less-than-intelligent description of it, I think I saw the light in those matches.

Less that competitive smash is strategy-based, I knew that all along. But, I've never seen oppressive footsies done in the way this fellow did it. It was terrifying, having your space taken from you knowing that at any moment you might have to figure out how to get in without getting jab mixups thrown back at you (including Fsmash tipper *shiver*).

 

[BetaDjinn]

This reminds me, there's a common mid-low tier mentality that relates to this which should be called out more often.

Winning: "im so good i won with a bad character"
Losing: "only lost cause im using a bad character"

Behavior like this is part of why some people are adverse to playing against low tiers outside of tourney sets

 

[Dre89]

You're basically isolating every little thing without looking at the big picture when it comes to Mewtwo. Every heavy is pretty unique from their counterparts. Charizard has multiple jumps and super armor, DK has a lot of mobility and insane grab rewards, Bowser has a solid neutral game and benefits from rage, etc. But Charizard suffers from slow aerial mobility, DK and Bowser have trouble landing, and so on and so forth. They all have tools in neutral but suffer in different ways.

Mewtwo's strength in mobility isn't just about escaping combos, it's about escaping at all. While he suffers from poor aerial acceleration, the ability to mix things up with Confusion, B-Reverses, arguably the best air dodge in the game, AND Teleport, on top of great max air speed, huge jumps, and more, means he's both good at edgeguarding deep AND good at avoiding edgeguarding of all kinds.

Mewtwo lacks a truly fast move (quickest are Frame 6), but they're all quick for the amount of damage they do and the range that they have. Frame 7 fair is absurdly strong for a move of its kind. Tilts are sword-ranged, and d-tilt is a fantastic move that can quickly net a comfortable 20+% without much effort. Jab leads into guaranteed setups. Side-B's strength isn't JUST that it's a reflector, it's that it's a long-range command grab + reflector that leads into mixups. Throws are multi-function, creating distance to let Mewtwo establish the pace of the match while also dealing high damage per throw and eventually transforming into kill throws. People talk about how Mewtwo's throws don't combo properly but that's not their purpose.

It's also weird for you to say that Shadow Ball is only meaningful in a "few" matchups. Take any character, not just the heavies, but the light ones, the swordsmen, the combo characters. Now, tell their players that they could get a chargeable projectile that has low recovery, can set up kills when uncharged, and is pretty much the strongest practical projectile in the game. Do you think it would really benefit only a "few" matchups?

Mewtwo might not be among the upper half of the character roster, but it's important to understand that he also doesn't function like other characters, game plan-wise. He's not about slow, methodical reads like heavies, he's not about overwhelming rushdown either. He's someone who has to swing into ranges of both, alternating between playing a spacing-heavy neutral game, into combos and 50/50s, into a full retreat when the time is needed. I mean, I think the best way I can describe this is that Mewtwo's game plan changes enormously depending on the opponent he's facing, and it's because he has a full range of tools no other character has, but takes the most punishment for using them incorrectly.

I'm not saying Mewtwo has nothing going for him. I'm saying that he has very few meaningful advantages over the heavies to make up for the weight disparity.

Bowser doesn't have that much trouble landing. Dair is a combo breaker for some reason and he has too many fast threatening options (like dair) to be easily punished. Most people with Bowser experience don't follow him too hard in the air because of how dangerous it is.

The superior mobility of Mewtwo is not a meaningful advantage against top tiers because most of them are more mobile than him anyway. When you're the less mobile character, your mobility is less important than the quality of your hitboxes and burst movements. Mewtwo has good attacks with good reward, but they're comparable to the other heavies.

Even if we assume Mewtwo's recovery is the best, it's not a meaningful advantage because the other heavies have mostly unexploitable recoveries after low percents. DK is basically ungimpable after mid percents unless he DIs poorly and gets knocked below the stage. Bowser's is worse but it has a similar style so it's only somewhat exploitable. Charizard should not be getting gimped after mid percents with proper DI either.

As for shadow ball, my point wasn't that it's not useful in a lot of matchups. My point was that the number of matchups where it's so effective that it becomes a positive trade for the weight of a heavy would be very few. Shadow ball is good, but I'd take heavyweight and all the cons it has over it in most MUs.

 

[Jehtt]

Just cos knights are useful doesn't mean you don't trade them for a Rook in the blink of an eye.

I like the Chess discussion going on here. Personally, I think it demonstrates a problem that players tend to have when it comes to discussing the game. Oversimplification.

It's very easy to say that you should always trade a Knight for a Rook, but it isn't always true.You have to consider the bigger picture. Perhaps moving your knight will open up a file that will allow your opponent to easily develop his pieces. Perhaps your knight is controlling a very important square that you don't want to give up, even to take his rook. Perhaps the rook is actually keeping another piece locked in place since the piece behind it will be exposed to you if it moves, but attacking it with the knight will allow the piece it was pinned to to escape.

I feel like this happens a lot in Smash too. People talk about MUs all the time but the depth of the discussion rarely extends beyond "X can't approach Y" or "X out-ranges Y" or similar things. I'm sure you've all heard stuff like it before.
"Ganon/Shulk beats Wario because range" or "Ike beats Sonic because range" or "Greninja beats Mario because range"
"Sheik beats MK because needles"
"Fox beats Mega Man because reflector"
"Greninja is even with ZSS because shadow sneak"
This extends outside of just this thread; it's how people in real life and on the character boards often try to summarize MUs. I don't think it's fair to the game or the characters to give such broad generalizations on how MUs work because there are so many intricacies.

I think it also extends beyond matchups; many characters often have their game plans simplified to the point where it's not really describing the character anymore.
"ZSS/DK/Mario/Luigi: Grab and do combos"
"Villager: Use a lot of projectiles"
"Wario: Run away until waft is charged"
Etc...

I don't know, I just feel like this has been becoming more prevalent and I don't think it encourages a meaningful or healthy discussion.

This thread is interesting because I feel it actually does a pretty decent job of analyzing characters individually, all things considered. I just feel it tends to fall apart when matchups become a part of the equation...

 

[Teshie U]

He's more of a Lucario player than a Greninja player. I don't think he won any notable matches with Greninja there (I was also in attendance). HIs Greninja is pretty good, but I'd say his Lucario is on a whole different level.

I've seen him in many sets win game 1 with Lucario, switch to Greninja, lose and then win game 3 with Lucario. His Greninja is alright, but don't get your hopes up about seeing strong Greninja play from him. Best one in TX is likely Megafox, but no one good in this region seems to be actively maining the frog.

 

[Rizen]

I like the Chess discussion going on here. Personally, I think it demonstrates a problem that players tend to have when it comes to discussing the game. Oversimplification.

It's very easy to say that you should always trade a Knight for a Rook, but it isn't always true.You have to consider the bigger picture. Perhaps moving your knight will open up a file that will allow your opponent to easily develop his pieces. Perhaps your knight is controlling a very important square that you don't want to give up, even to take his rook. Perhaps the rook is actually keeping another piece locked in place since the piece behind it will be exposed to you if it moves, but attacking it with the knight will allow the piece it was pinned to to escape.

I feel like this happens a lot in Smash too. People talk about MUs all the time but the depth of the discussion rarely extends beyond "X can't approach Y" or "X out-ranges Y" or similar things. I'm sure you've all heard stuff like it before.
"Ganon/Shulk beats Wario because range" or "Ike beats Sonic because range" or "Greninja beats Mario because range"
"Sheik beats MK because needles"
"Fox beats Mega Man because reflector"
"Greninja is even with ZSS because shadow sneak"
This extends outside of just this thread; it's how people in real life and on the character boards often try to summarize MUs. I don't think it's fair to the game or the characters to give such broad generalizations on how MUs work because there are so many intricacies.

I think it also extends beyond matchups; many characters often have their game plans simplified to the point where it's not really describing the character anymore.
"ZSS/DK/Mario/Luigi: Grab and do combos"
"Villager: Use a lot of projectiles"
"Wario: Run away until waft is charged"
Etc...

I don't know, I just feel like this has been becoming more prevalent and I don't think it encourages a meaningful or healthy discussion.

This thread is interesting because I feel it actually does a pretty decent job of analyzing characters individually, all things considered. I just feel it tends to fall apart when matchups become a part of the equation...

Can we just call a spade a spade? A rook is overall a better piece than a knight just like how C Falcon is a better character than Link. Sure you can find good traits for bad characters but at the end of the day some characters are better/worse than others. TBH I'm rarely seeing oversimplification in this thread; people bring up valid points. Mewtwo being light and big are important negative traits. Sheik's needles are a fantastic anti ground/zoning move that significantly influence MUs. Of course people need to look at the whole picture but that doesn't make specific points any less valid.

People need to acknowledge some characters are better than others. SSB4 has great balance so bad characters can pull through but 'somebody has to be on the bottom'.

 

[Jehtt]

People need to acknowledge some characters are better than others. SSB4 has great balance so bad characters can pull through but 'somebody has to be on the bottom'.

I wasn't talking about balance. It was more of a general discussion on player mentality. My point was not "the knight can be better than the rook" but rather "there is more of a dynamic to rook v knight than to always take it."

 

[Rizen]

"there is more of a dynamic to rook v knight than to always take it."

I'm saying people aren't denying ^that. We just don't want to write an essay every time we post, lol.

Edit, there probably are people who oversimplify that I didn't notice too.

 

[Pazx]

"We just don't want to write an essay every time we post" boy, do I ever!

here we go

I recently started playing my custom mii brawler and was wondering how legit unrestricted miis are? I remember brawler getting a lot of attention back in the 3ds days for stuff like helicopter kick but no one really talks about him anymore. Anyways how good do you guys think unrestricted mii brawler is with small size and best custom set? Could he possibly be high tier?

I really don't like these sort of open "what does everyone think of X" posts because most of the time they don't actually spark discussion, especially when we have people asking what we think of Sheik (seriously, yes you know who you are). In all honesty the chances that somebody is going to pick up on this post and drop some knowledge bombs about obscure character #243 are pretty slim.

However, you're in luck, because I know a little bit about this character. The short answer is "very, very legit", small Mii Brawler is definitely at least high tier, probably a top tier in fact. To get it out of the way though, no, it isn't the best character in the game, it isn't a top 3 character, it could potentially be a top 5 character but I'd feel a lot more comfortable saying a completely unrestricted Mii Brawler likely falls somewhere in the top 10 or 11 characters. The reason for this uncertainty is that there's nobody pushing the meta of this character, and that's for the simple reason that most tournaments disallow Mii Fighters that are non-default sizes. That might be fair enough, I don't have a huge opinion on it either way, as long as Mii Fighters are legal with full access to their movesets I'm pretty happy. That leaves us with Default Size (50/50 or "Guest") Mii Brawler, who is also a pretty good character.

Guest Mii Brawler is also held back by a lack of people pushing the character's meta, which is in no small part due to uncertainty regarding the characters legality as many tournaments outright ban Miis or arbitrarily restrict them to 1-1-1-1 only. That's dumb, but I won't go into it. The thing about this character in it's current state (as there's obviously a lot of room for development, it just isn't really happening) is that if he doesn't get a grab somewhat near the ledge at that golden percent he really struggles to kill. Fsmash is slow, usmash is weak, dsmash is somewhere in the middle (although it's really only noteworthy because of how dumb it looks), he can't deal with shields outside of heli kick percent, his range is generally poor, he can't edgeguard at all aside from run off DJ nair/dair and if he gets hit going for that he DIES. He's a good counterpick character right now, because he thrives off of matchup inexperience, but I'm fairly confident that if your opponent knows the matchup you have to pretty significantly outplay them if you want a chance at winning the set (this is particularly apparent in bo5s and 3 stock).

How can you "know" the matchup (Or "Pazx's guide to not losing to obscure character #243")?

1. Don't let him grab you facing the ledge.
   • It's honestly better to be super predictable and just continuously roll/jump/SHAD/whatever towards center stage if you have your back to the ledge at a percent where he's not going to kill you unless he makes a SUPER hard read and your reaction time sucks. Also this is really basic but remember you can always jab to beat grabs.
   • This extends to "don't do things that will let him grab you facing the ledge", which means you have to use the following options very cautiously and sparingly: landing with unsafe aerials, techroll away, getup roll away (once again it's better to just roll towards him if you're in dangerous helicopter kick percents, ideally he punishes you for rolling which will take you to a % where the heli kick setups don't work), neutral getup, getup attack (both from the ledge and from a prone position).
2. Don't airdodge after down throw.
   • Alternatively, do airdodge after dthrow, but only if you're in a percentage range when helicopter kick should be guaranteed. If you're sent too high for the followup to connect, airdodging is a death wish.
   • This is probably actually the main lesson to be learned, but you need to know when dthrow heli kick is true and when it isn't. Learn your percentages because when you're in that range is the only time you really need to fear this character.
3. Learn to DI (and tech).
   • DI dthrow inwards(/maybe inwards and upwards, also DI outwards/upwards when you're at a higher percentage), all hits of helicopter kick inwards (unless you're falling out, in which case DI whichever direction you're falling out of) and don't get jab reset or whatever.
4. Edgeguarding is cool.
   • Feint jump doesn't actually have invincibility and it's not going to kill you so challenge it.
   • Heli kick has almost no vertical recovery, get him below the ledge.
   • Heli kick sends you at the perfect angle for stage spikes, so be ready to tech (it's pretty easy on account of being a long lasting multi hit).
5. You can hold shield against this character at high percents.
   • Once you get past a certain percentage Mii Brawler can't kill you off of a grab. This means you don't need to hesitate about shielding if you're at risk of dying, there's no "what if he grabs me instead of attacking" because his throws are bad.

I picked up this character at around the same time I started playing MK back in March. At the time, they both struck me as limited characters with certain very powerful tools, namely kill combos. Fast-forward to now and Brawler's meta hasn't changed at all whilst MK mains have been working hard, optimising their combo game and finding new setups. Brawler is never going to be as capable of ending stocks as MK is, and he's weaker both in neutral and overall, but there is still a lot of room for this character to grow.

~~~

After reading all of this you might be thinking "wow, this character sounds terrible!" in which case you'd be absolutely correct, and that's why I've placed him next to Yoshi on my tier list. He's in that high tier/high mid region, 14-25, with the likes of Villager, the Pits, Ike, DK, Luigi and ROB. Does he beat anybody relevant? Probably not. There are still some things going for this character though, top class mobility for example goes a long way, optimal Brawler might even involve timing people out on Duck Hunt in the future. The main thing holding Brawler back is the fact that his ability to end stocks early doesn't make up for his inability to end stocks full stop.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm not saying Mewtwo has nothing going for him. I'm saying that he has very few meaningful advantages over the heavies to make up for the weight disparity.

Bowser doesn't have that much trouble landing. Dair is a combo breaker for some reason and he has too many fast threatening options (like dair) to be easily punished. Most people with Bowser experience don't follow him too hard in the air because of how dangerous it is.

The superior mobility of Mewtwo is not a meaningful advantage against top tiers because most of them are more mobile than him anyway. When you're the less mobile character, your mobility is less important than the quality of your hitboxes and burst movements. Mewtwo has good attacks with good reward, but they're comparable to the other heavies.

Even if we assume Mewtwo's recovery is the best, it's not a meaningful advantage because the other heavies have mostly unexploitable recoveries after low percents. DK is basically ungimpable after mid percents unless he DIs poorly and gets knocked below the stage. Bowser's is worse but it has a similar style so it's only somewhat exploitable. Charizard should not be getting gimped after mid percents with proper DI either.

As for shadow ball, my point wasn't that it's not useful in a lot of matchups. My point was that the number of matchups where it's so effective that it becomes a positive trade for the weight of a heavy would be very few. Shadow ball is good, but I'd take heavyweight and all the cons it has over it in most MUs.

People don't follow Bowser in the air because it's much easier to wait until he's close to the ground and punish him then. Only retreating to the edge is somewhat reliable.

Just because your mobility isn't as high as your opponent's doesn't render it moot. DK isn't considered the best heavy for his grab combos, it's because he is mobile enough to make timing him out difficult by circle camping. The same goes for Mewtwo, with the added bonus of a reflector and charged projectile.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Pazx i can't ask what people thought about sheik when I didn't know? Peoples' thoughts change all the time and I wondered what was the thoughts on her now, not to mention the soft Nair into bouncing fish tech that was discovered recently and all the advancement being put into her game.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't mean to chase down a Chess rabbit hole, but a rook is just obviously superior to a knight in general.

Knights are disproportionately more influential at the start of the game when the board is crowded and grow weaker as the game plays out; the opposite is true for rooks. The knight has more opportunities to fork, but the rook can pin. It's also far easier to checkmate with a rook.

When we say that a rook is worth 5 and a knight is worth 3, those numbers are not just tips made up to help newbies. Material matters, even if it is clearly not the only thing that matters. A rook in the endgame is obviously way more valuable than a knight or bishop, and can even have a shot at drawing against a queen.

Sure, there are countless situations where you would capture a knight over a rook, or make that trade. There are situations where you'd capture a pawn over a rook, or a knight over a queen. But at the end of the day, centuries of expertise has led to agreement that knights and bishop are in general worth 3 pawns and rooks are worth 5.


To bring this back to Smash, the cornerstone takeaway here is that rooks matter more because rooks quite literally enable you to win the game. At the end of the day, those are the biscuits that matter.

 

[outfoxd]

I don't mean to chase down a Chess rabbit hole, but a rook is just obviously superior to a knight in general.

Knights are disproportionately more influential at the start of the game when the board is crowded and grow weaker as the game plays out; the opposite is true for rooks. The knight has more opportunities to fork, but the rook can pin. It's also far easier to checkmate with a rook.

When we say that a rook is worth 5 and a knight is worth 3, those numbers are not just tips made up to help newbies. Material matters, even if it is clearly not the only thing that matters. A rook in the endgame is obviously way more valuable than a knight or bishop, and can even have a shot at drawing against a queen.

Sure, there are countless situations where you would capture a knight over a rook, or make that trade. There are situations where you'd capture a pawn over a rook, or a knight over a queen. But at the end of the day, centuries of expertise has led to agreement that knights and bishop are in general worth 3 pawns and rooks are worth 5.


To bring this back to Smash, the cornerstone takeaway here is that rooks matter more because rooks quite literally enable you to win the game. At the end of the day, those are the biscuits that matter.

And to bring back my smashnalogy....DH players are playing chess with no rooks. While the other guy is throwing left hooks. Or something.

 

[Thinkaman]

Visual representation of Duck Hunt's moveset:

Fun Trivia: It's possible to use Duck Hunt's moveset and tour every square of the board, with neither landing on the same square twice nor successfully killing the opponent.

 

[Y2Kay]

Wow. Didn't know so many people here played chess....

 

[Mili]

When the thread gets completely derailed by everyone, including admins, into a cray cray chess discussion.

Idea for new thread name: "Chess Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics"

I like it.

On another note, I actually love the comparison between the chess and Smash 4, it's a very interesting concept.

 

[LightLV]

It's not impossible. Did you know Daigo is a nurse? The main things that bring about a top player are the right environment and circumstances. Daigo is in Japan with the arcades still surviving. His job is shift based and he just needs a quota for the week.

IIRC, there are a lot of top players that don't play much per week, but they'll watch videos of matches to take notes from.

EDIT: It appears my information is out of date. Daigo WAS a nurse before he was sponsored by Mad Catz. Point still holds.

Poor Diago...he's still a beast, but it's clear he isn't quite on game like he used to be. 0-3 Capcom Cup yesterday X_X

This reminds me, there's a common mid-low tier mentality that relates to this which should be called out more often.

Winning: "im so good i won with a bad character"
Losing: "only lost cause im using a bad character"

A folly that I think more people who play smash live by than they'd like to admit.

Wow. Didn't know so many people here played chess....

Anyone can become a pro at anything with the power of reading and the internet!

 

[Big-Cat]

It's more like people are catching up to Daigo.

 

[LightLV]

That may be it, but i feel like Daigo himself just doesn't care as much as he used to. And he doesn't need to, his rep kind of speaks for itself, he still decimates tournaments and he's never going to not be . You can see it in his demeanor now, he feels alot more easygoing.

 

[wedl!!]

Once we can get model hacks working on Wii U I'm hoping there's someone out there who makes Duck Hunt's gunmen chess knights.

Less ****posting: what does the thread think of the idea of giving Shadow Ball a charging hitbox? I personally don't fully agree with this but I can sort of understand this. I'd rather Down Throw get more hitstun because of how dissimilar Shadow Ball's use is compared to Aura Sphere, and how Lucario has a lot of kit design differences. Aura Sphere is a pretty meh projectile without a lot of aura, but its use is in the hitbox. Shadow Ball is one of the best projectiles in the game, but lacks that same hitbox to balance it out.

Lucario, unfortunately, has far worse frame data and reliable kill potential than Mewtwo. Having Aura Sphere's hitbox alleviates this problem to an extent by giving him some decent potential to kill. Mewtwo already has two extremely strong killthrows, Dsmash, and Fair, fairly safe kill options. He doesn't have aura to kill you early, he's just a lot safer when he does it.

 

[Nobie]

Poor Diago...he's still a beast, but it's clear he isn't quite on game like he used to be. 0-3 Capcom Cup yesterday X_X

I like how you left out the part where he still got 2nd in one of the hardest Street Fighter IV tournaments ever, and almost got the bracket reset on Kazunoko.

 

[LightLV]

I like how you left out the part where he still got 2nd in one of the hardest Street Fighter IV tournaments ever, and almost got the bracket reset on Kazunoko.

...okay? I mean, daigo winning and almost winning tournaments isn't a special occurrence or anything.

 

[Dre89]

People don't follow Bowser in the air because it's much easier to wait until he's close to the ground and punish him then. Only retreating to the edge is somewhat reliable.

Just because your mobility isn't as high as your opponent's doesn't render it moot. DK isn't considered the best heavy for his grab combos, it's because he is mobile enough to make timing him out difficult by circle camping. The same goes for Mewtwo, with the added bonus of a reflector and charged projectile.

DK was considered low tier before the grab patch, worse than Charizard and Bowser.

The grab is what made people think he's mid-high.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Once we can get model hacks working on Wii U I'm hoping there's someone out there who makes Duck Hunt's gunmen chess knights.

Less ****posting: what does the thread think of the idea of giving Shadow Ball a charging hitbox? I personally don't fully agree with this but I can sort of understand this. I'd rather Down Throw get more hitstun because of how dissimilar Shadow Ball's use is compared to Aura Sphere, and how Lucario has a lot of kit design differences. Aura Sphere is a pretty meh projectile without a lot of aura, but its use is in the hitbox. Shadow Ball is one of the best projectiles in the game, but lacks that same hitbox to balance it out.

Lucario, unfortunately, has far worse frame data and reliable kill potential than Mewtwo. Having Aura Sphere's hitbox alleviates this problem to an extent by giving him some decent potential to kill. Mewtwo already has two extremely strong killthrows, Dsmash, and Fair, fairly safe kill options. He doesn't have aura to kill you early, he's just a lot safer when he does it.

Mewtwo has a kill combo... Plus a possible infinite... And another kill combo... Plus he can't really be edge-guarded... I think he is fine.

I made a guide in the Mewtwo boards if anyone wants to see some of the stuff he can do, keep in mind that all the info is a couple of weeks old.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I've heard someone on this site say that shulk has a positive MU against Ryu. I think this is wrong, but thoughts????

 

[Mili]

I've heard someone on this site say that shulk has a positive MU against Ryu. I think this is wrong, but thoughts????

This is so freaking wrong it isn't even funny. The ONLY advantage the Shulk has over Ryu is range. Ryu does way more damage, Focus Attack is ridiculously useful because Shulk's best moves (F-Air, N-Air etc. etc.) are not multi-hit. Furthermore, the lack of Shulk representation means that his meta isn't really being pushed whereas there are a few really top players that are extending Ryu's meta more and more and more. To be fair, Ryu doesn't have that much rep (only two amazing players are Trela and 9B) compared to someone like Sheik but it's enough.

I'm not sure who would say Shulk has a positive matchup but it's highly likely they don't know what they're saying. Did they give reasons or was it: "Bruh, Shulk has like, so much range. This obvs means he can poop on Ryu because he just stays away like y'know?". There really is no reason to say that Shulk has an advantage over Ryu.

Oh, one more thing, Shulk does have the multi-hit smash attacks which is decent. Still not enough, though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I've heard someone on this site say that shulk has a positive MU against Ryu. I think this is wrong, but thoughts????

It could be because of Shulk's range. Ryu will have a hard time side b'ing and Shulk shouldn't be able to be punished for using an aerial to hard. Like true shoryuken. I don't know, it might be in Shulk's favor...

Mili fair should have enough range that it is completely safe on focus attack. If Nair is used correctly it might be as well.

 

[Mili]

It could be because of Shulk's range. Ryu will have a hard time side b'ing and Shulk shouldn't be able to be punished for using an aerial to hard. Like true shoryuken. I don't know, it might be in Shulk's favor...

We literally just discussed the oversimplification of matchups in this thread. Saying X character beats Y character "because range" is quite silly, in all honesty.

 

[Sonicninja115]

We literally just discussed the oversimplification of matchups in this thread. Saying X character beats Y character "because range" is quite silly, in all honesty.

There are more reasons besides range... Just the reason someone would think that would BE range. Ryu should have a hard time recovering horizontally because of how easy it would be for Shulk to stuff that. vertically should be a lot harder. (Superarmor) MALLC would make Shulk's aerials safe on FA. Ryu's projectile won't hurt shulk that much either. Shulk's recovery is outside Ryu's spike area and is only punishable by Bair or possibly a turn around Dair. Speed and buster should help a lot in this MU, and Armor might even throw a wrench in Ryu's Utilt combos. (Don't know a lot about that combo) There is more, but I don't have a lot of time.

 

[TDK]

So, if Duck Hunt's moveset is all knights, what does that make someone like Ike, who hits like a truck, have in terms of Chess Pieces?

I do love this comparison, as it does make a lot of sense.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So, if Duck Hunt's moveset is all knights, what does that make someone like Ike, who hits like a truck, have in terms of Chess Pieces?

I do love this comparison, as it does make a lot of sense.

He would be the queen, hits hard, but gets taken out early if your not careful.

 

[Jams.]

Pazx , do you know whether guest Brawler can perform dthrow->fair/uair->upb with rage? I feel like this combo is huge for tiny Brawler to confirm kills without incredibly situational grabs by the ledge, and guest Brawler not being able to do this hampers him greatly. Not sure if rage would be enough for this combo to work.

I used to co-main tiny Brawler back when customs were legal, and made it out of EVO round 1 pools with the character (not saying much because most round 1 pools were free, but it's something). I think the character is easily top 10 if he remained legal, but probably not top 3 since I don't think the character's strengths can make up fully for his lack of range and problems killing outside of combo percentages. This character's meta is super underdeveloped IMO. His frame data and mobility are amazing, and I feel his combo game could go much deeper than dthrow->aerial->upb, which was basically all anyone was doing at the time. Likewise, the character has an amazing perfect pivot, dance trot, sliding pivot, SHAD, and some other situational sliding tech which were not incorporated into his neutral game back when he was legal. Of course, this meta development will likely never happen because tiny Brawler is banned basically everywhere, and I highly doubt this ban will ever be lifted.

Edit: Guys could we stop this chess analogy now?