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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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Nobie

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I like how the first question when doubting a character's viability is "who do they beat?'

Not so much because that doesn't matter, but that it's assumed that your character should be at least soft countering other characters to succeed. Shouldn't the question be, "who do they at least go even with?"
 

meleebrawler

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I like how the first question when doubting a character's viability is "who do they beat?'

Not so much because that doesn't matter, but that it's assumed that your character should be at least soft countering other characters to succeed. Shouldn't the question be, "who do they at least go even with?"
"Who does this character beat/lose to so that I know when it isn't my fault when I lose?"

The notion that the game is just "choose the right character to win" is obviously laughable on the surface, but subconsciously hard to ignore.
 

LiteralGrill

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If we have to talk Cloud I hope some of you have played Super Smash Flash 2...


But really not just for this similar move but because in quite a few ways Ichigo looks to play a bit like Cloud will except Ichigo has moves that actually have burst movement. He's a faster version of someone with a sword so hulking it would outrange Ike and wanna know where he in on the SSF2 tier list? 18th.

He's beaten out in games of attrition, zoning, and smaller faster characters. His speed cannot keep up alongside a recovery that isn't too impressive (like Cloud's without the Limit Break). His recovery looks lamer than Ichigo's as he can't probably even cover behind him making him potential gimp food worse that Ike. Honestly these two characters share quite a lot of similarities and the meta for those two games has eerie similarities so I'm not expecting Cloud right now to blow any minds unless that Limit Break is crazy or something. Middle of the road character with the other Sword users or potentially a bit higher in the Ike range prediction here.
 

bc1910

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I like how the first question when doubting a character's viability is "who do they beat?'

Not so much because that doesn't matter, but that it's assumed that your character should be at least soft countering other characters to succeed. Shouldn't the question be, "who do they at least go even with?"
Nah, viable characters need to beat other characters. It all comes down to consistency.

Look at the MU spreads of the top/high tiers and they'll have plenty of notable winning MUs among their evens.
 
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meleebrawler

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If we have to talk Cloud I hope some of you have played Super Smash Flash 2...


But really not just for this similar move but because in quite a few ways Ichigo looks to play a bit like Cloud will except Ichigo has moves that actually have burst movement. He's a faster version of someone with a sword so hulking it would outrange Ike and wanna know where he in on the SSF2 tier list? 18th.

He's beaten out in games of attrition, zoning, and smaller faster characters. His speed cannot keep up alongside a recovery that isn't too impressive (like Cloud's without the Limit Break). His recovery looks lamer than Ichigo's as he can't probably even cover behind him making him potential gimp food worse that Ike. Honestly these two characters share quite a lot of similarities and the meta for those two games has eerie similarities so I'm not expecting Cloud right now to blow any minds unless that Limit Break is crazy or something. Middle of the road character with the other Sword users or potentially a bit higher in the Ike range prediction here.
Cloud has that slide for his down tilt that lowers his profile drastically which could definitely help him break zoners.

As far as I can recall for Ichigo (0.8 impressions so could be rather outdated), for someone with a big sword he tends to swing it in ways that don't give it a lot of range, especially his fair. His smashes are slow-ish and his dsmash is particularly lousy making it hard to regain space. Plus the burst movement special he has isn't really that good anyway, as it stops him dead upon completion, requiring a decent amount of charge to get any notable distance.

Cloud on the other hand does have consistent range with his sword, and his smashes are rather quick for that blade so at the very least I don't see him struggling that much with smaller, faster characters.
 

Y2Kay

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Cloud has that slide for his down tilt that lowers his profile drastically which could definitely help him break zoners.

As far as I can recall for Ichigo (0.8 impressions so could be rather outdated), for someone with a big sword he tends to swing it in ways that don't give it a lot of range, especially his fair. His smashes are slow-ish and his dsmash is particularly lousy making it hard to regain space. Plus the burst movement special he has isn't really that good anyway, as it stops him dead upon completion, requiring a decent amount of charge to get any notable distance.

Cloud on the other hand does have consistent range with his sword, and his smashes are rather quick for that blade so at the very least I don't see him struggling that much with smaller, faster characters.
I doubt he'll have trouble with small fast characters like Diddy and pika. If Ike can beat pika, Cloud sure can.

I still haven't gotten closure with the fact that Cloud is in this game. My hype levels haven't been returned to normal. I'm gonna have another stroke.

Call an ambulance.

:150:
 

Wintropy

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@Ffamran i think thinkman is right about palutena's f-tilt being a good spotdodge / roll catcher. have to disagree with him about it being a better d-tilt, though, for reasons that blue-cap and silver got right: d-tilt might not have the disjointed range that f-tilt does, but it's noticeably faster and the upward knockback trajectory combined with its short range means it has followup potential that f-tilt doesn't. i think the weaker range helps it, since it mean palutena is still in range to followup when the opponent is popped into the air.

re: cloud, i was skeptical at first about how he will play (got a very ike / shulk vibe off of him in terms of playstyle), but thinkaman's theory that limit breaker is a kind of stat boost sounds interesting. reminds me of shulk's monados, but presumably more efficient in that it seems to offer an egalitarian stat increase rather than just one stat that then weakens another. definitely has promise to be a dynamic and effective technique, but i'm a tiny bit concerned that he will rely on it to the extent that his entire gameplan will be based on getting into a favourable position to switch it on. will wait and see how it goes, he has potential to be good if that technique isn't the founding pillar of his playstyle and his combo potential and frame data isn't held back by his heavy disjointed style.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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One problem Cloud might have is limited options that would knock opponents both forward and off of the stage. Fair's meteor, while great for edgeguarding, would hinder his approach game slightly (even if the meteor is only at the end of the hitbox). Sans Ike, his Dtilt also doesn't send the opponent forward, and could probably be countered just like Mega Man's. Dsmash also doesn't send the opponent forward, but functions more like Ganondorf's or TLink's Dsmashes. Great for being cornered, but not so much for when you have your opponent cornered (sans covering ledge rolls). Nair is a huge circular swing like Ike/Shulk, so it'll probably be predictable and not much knockback like those moves. Ftilt also looks similar to Ike/Shulk, but more around Ike's in terms of speed. Which would make it easier to predict/block. Dash Attack is surprisingly speedy, but has lower range and sends the opponent diagonally up instead of horizontally. Fsmash looks flashy, but has a bit of windup. But it looks okay. Just okay though. His multislash looks similar in function to his Fsmash, only dealing more hits and it can be performed in the air, but seems to lack Fsmash's knockback (barring Limit Break). And Jab, while fast (it looks good!), doesn't seem to have a lot of knockback.

Basically, if you want to knock the opponent off of the stage in front of you, Cloud MIGHT have problems. He might have to rely on throws, his jab combo, and occasionally his bair or ftilt to do that. Limit Break helps since it beefs up his projectile, multislash, and other moves. But there's no telling how consistantly he can do that in a match. And, barring Limit Break, he looks like a worse Ike in terms of recovery.

A special mention for his Utilt is that it actually starts above and behind him, unlike most swordsmen. Which is pretty cool as an anti-air for opponents behind him, but it's gonna have some issues with opponents in front of him. Even then, it looks like it won't hit opponents on the ground behind him, as it isn't a complete arc like Marth/Roy.

On the plus side, his edgeguarding game looks amazing. Dsmash for when you are cornered or baiting ledge rolls, Usmash for covering ledge jumps, Dair looks AMAZING as a spike, Bair for a disjointed kill (like Ike's but bigger and a bit slower), aerial multislash, Limit Break projectile...don't let this man get you off of the stage. Might not be the best edgeguarding in the game, but it looks really solid.


Overall, in conjunction with his projectile and Limit Break, Cloud seems like he is going to be a defensive character in nature. Less about swinging his sword wildly (...ironically enough), and more about punishing his opponents at the right moments. Runaway projectile and/or Limit Break charge, counter with Dsmash if they get too close, then spike 'em with Dair or Fair. Or go for Bair as a mixup. OR wait for punishing the opponent's ledge options. On the flip side, Cloud probably doesn't want to be at the dead center of the stage. Which not only hurts his approach game, but it also means he'll have to rely on his (usually) crappy recovery if he gets sent off of the stage...which isn't good.


He looks solid. Maybe high tier (depending on how Limit Break works). But no hugher than that. The above weakness that I mentioned, plus slower frame data (sans jab combo) will hold him back. Having a projectile alone will still keep him relevant though, on top of hisstrengths in edgeguarding.
 
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GeneralLedge

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[...] limit breaker is a kind of stat boost sounds interesting. reminds me of shulk's monados, but presumably more efficient in that it seems to offer an egalitarian stat increase rather than just one stat that then weakens another. [...]
From my perspective, it looks like it just lets you unleash a single super-buffed (or possibly more importantly, increased range) special attack. It gives Cloud something to do when he can't follow-up, or between kills, to offer a surprise attack when applicable. Or, if you can't find an opening to use this, you save it for the extra recovery distance it grants UpB.

Not to say it couldn't offer a stat boost all-around, but it seems like it doesn't have to, to retain a use. He loses the glow after using a buffed special, so if it DID give a stat boost, the question is "why on earth would you ever drop it?"
 

Y2Kay

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Yeah, I wonder if it limit break will function like the Monado, or like PM Lucas's neutral b.

For those who don't know, fully charging PM Lucas' neutral b gives him a single super powerful smash attack, but must recharge afterward.

Both seem feasible, but I would personally prefer a tiny Monado-like boost but w/o the drawbacks

:150:
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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or like PM Lucas's neutral b.

For those who don't know, fully charging PM Lucas' neutral b gives him a single super powerful smash attack, but must recharge afterward.
This seems to be the most plausible atm. However, as opposed to Lucas, Cloud's Limit Break seems to beef up both special moves and smash attacks.

No idea on how long it takes to charge, and/or if he can store the charge midway, however.
 

GeneralLedge

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This seems to be the most plausible atm. However, as opposed to Lucas, Cloud's Limit Break seems to beef up both special moves and smash attacks.
I don't think it beefs up smash attacks; the swirly one he uses during the Limit Break segment is speculated to just replace DownB after Limit Break is fully charged.

EDIT:

No idea on how long it takes to charge, [...]
4.5 seconds is the current guesstimate based on how much is shown charging during the trailer.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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Just saw somebody post that somewhere else actually. Was gonna edit my post, but you beat me to it. lol


But yeah, that's probably it.
 
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Big-Cat

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After initially optimistic review, I don't see Bowser's crawl as having sufficient acceleration to have significant value to footsies, despite promise. Thoughts?
To me, it's more about being able to move just minute amounts without the need for pivot tilts or perfect pivot. As slow and Bowser's moves are, you need to be able to strike at moment's notice. It might work better for my playstyle though as I'm about positioning and HEAVY punishment while making hits here and there along the way.
 

wedl!!

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The most unfortunate thing about Bowser's mobility other than his jumpsquat is his awful walk. Seriously he would be quite a bit better if his walk were present as his best spacing options come out of it (Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt).
 

Ikes

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... Wa?

Not sure if Wario gets beaten by Shulk, but at least he is really really REALLY hard to beat (dem disjoints). In my eyes Wario's worst MU. But then again I don't main him anymore and it has been quite a lot of time since I played that MU or saw that MU so... Take with a gain of salt.
wario is way too fast to get beat by shulk like that

our worst MU is probably like, Sheik

we're combo food to hell and our frame data is just slow enough not to be able to easily break combos

she also gets a lot of mileage out of her setups on us

wouldnt say it's unbeatable, just has to be played heavily defensively

villager is also probably a bad matchup, especially since we get no gain from chomping his projectiles, unlike some others where they might heal or something
 

Y2Kay

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wario is way too fast to get beat by shulk like that

our worst MU is probably like, Sheik

we're combo food to hell and our frame data is just slow enough not to be able to easily break combos

she also gets a lot of mileage out of her setups on us

wouldnt say it's unbeatable, just has to be played heavily defensively

villager is also probably a bad matchup, especially since we get no gain from chomping his projectiles, unlike some others where they might heal or something
Wario maybe fast, but his range kinda stinks. Shulk, Ike, and Cloud are tough match ups

So glad I'll be able to say that now.

Should I keep this avi till the December smash conference, or naw?

:150:
 
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Spinosaurus

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If you think Wario loses a matchup just because of range then he likely doesn't.
 

LordMix

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To me, it's more about being able to move just minute amounts without the need for pivot tilts or perfect pivot. As slow and Bowser's moves are, you need to be able to strike at moment's notice. It might work better for my playstyle though as I'm about positioning and HEAVY punishment while making hits here and there along the way.
lmao none of this would matter when you fight a player on the caliber of you level or higher the characters good regardless

There's still the fact that he gets combo easily and looses in the speed category. I feel he relies on someone over extending or getting strong punishes. I also don't see dash attack as an approach option. It's one of the laggiest dash attacks in the game (the only one I know that is slower than Palutena's but I haven't looked at all dash attack data). And what about people that don't play defensively? How does he approach on them? If he is tilts, fire breath, and bair are not his bread and butter moves, what are his bread and butter moves?

If i'm playing a Bowser I would honestly just camp him. What could he do about that? Run all the way across the stage to shield grab me. I doubt that. I could easily switch to a more offensive play if he were to do that. I also am a little skeptical about jab to down b. Is it like Yoshi's where it is true on bad DI because I'm pretty I could just DI away or something to avoid Bowser bomb.

It's not that I think he's bad, I just think other characters could get the job done better.
i meant to quote this, my bad kuma but like i said, a character that has no gimmicks, nothing to fish for at 0 to get screwed over by smarter players pretty sure this character is at least top of mid tier theres no real way to telegraph the character like you can with peach rosa sonic mario or sheik, its just the games mechanics that are so simple and let people press buttons when they dont know whats going on because im pretty sure when you dont know a match up with a good character, you ignore that match up and play the character... at least with bowser you can figure out things and test around which is bad ina way but also good.
 
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Big-Cat

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i meant to quote this, my bad kuma but like i said, a character that has no gimmicks, nothing to fish for at 0 to get screwed over by smarter players pretty sure this character is at least top of mid tier theres no real way to telegraph the character like you can with peach rosa sonic mario or sheik, its just the games mechanics that are so simple and let people press buttons when they dont know whats going on because im pretty sure when you dont know a match up with a good character, you ignore that match up and play the character... at least with bowser you can figure out things and test around which is bad ina way but also good.
To me, that's a big appeal for Bowser. He doesn't have any special kill moves or gimmicks, just a solid kit for someone his size. It's about applying the whole set with him than to rely on only a few moves.
 

DunnoBro

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Honestly nintendo has a track record of making third party characters absolutely bonkers so I'm optimistic about his viability.
 

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Hypothetical: Cloud goes 65:35 vs Sheik, but he is very difficult to play and loses at least 40:60 vs every other top tier. How relevant is he to the meta?
 

FullMoon

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Honestly nintendo has a track record of making third party characters absolutely bonkers so I'm optimistic about his viability.
Wouldn't that be just Ryu, Snake and Sonic? Megaman, Pac-Man and Brawl!Sonic aren't exactly broken.

Well, Pac-Man is broken in the sense that he's glitch central but still.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Shulk is about even with Wario. He's really not that bad, the only really bad matchups for him are those against characters with amazing frame data/close range stuff but these aren't actually that common. They're actually very rare outside of top tier. There's like Luigi [who's not a terrible matchup for Shulk by any means imo] and maybe Falcon? He can win/go even with a lot of the other characters. He's not viable but a lot of people give him more **** than he deserves. He's like low-mid tier imo.

villager is also probably a bad matchup, especially since we get no gain from chomping his projectiles, unlike some others where they might heal or something
Wario does OK against all the smallish, annoying projectile campers [Villager, Pac-Man, Mega Man]. These are matchups that Wario wins or goes even with.

:059:
 

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Hypothetical: Cloud goes 65:35 vs Sheik, but he is very difficult to play and loses at least 40:60 vs every other top tier. How relevant is he to the meta?
Depending on how difficult he is to play, he becomes everyone's pocket character for the inevitable Sheik matchup, but then someone just goes Mario against him in the following match up, who is super duper easy to use, and beats out Cloud in this hypothetical. Ends up being mostly irrelevant.
 

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Wouldn't that be just Ryu, Snake and Sonic? Megaman, Pac-Man and Brawl!Sonic aren't exactly broken.

Well, Pac-Man is broken in the sense that he's glitch central but still.
Brawl sonic and megaman are the only third parties that come off as balanced to me, though by "bonkers" i just meant "good and gimmicky" not broken per se.
 
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FallofBrawl

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So Cloud has some kind of armour or invincibility when he uses the Limit-Broken Crossslash. Most likely has that same armour when he uses his other Limit-Broken specials. Cool.
 

GeneralLedge

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Cloud vs THE GATEKEEPER THREE will hinge entirely on how easily he can charge Limit Break and utilize it, whilst any of the three throw needles or zairs or lumas at him.

If he can use a LB move uninterrupted with Super Armor from the moment you press the button, that's a huge advantage against them.
 
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TTTTTsd

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The most unfortunate thing about Bowser's mobility other than his jumpsquat is his awful walk. Seriously he would be quite a bit better if his walk were present as his best spacing options come out of it (Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt).
THISSSSS.

Bowser's Jab and Tilt game is really good, if he could actually walk really well (or at least better) he'd be able to make better use of it.
 

Goesasu

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Trick question because Shulk isn't bad? Shulk just seems bad because he demands a level of dedication and skill to play to his potential that is out of proportion to his final quality so the incentive for players to pick him up is very low, but that doesn't change the fact that in the very rare cases people show true dedication to Shulk that he can really deliver in a big way. Ike is a more ordinary character so it's more realistic to more frequently see him given enough of an investment to deliver substantial return.
Exactly.

Shulk needs true dedication to play him and do well, and even then, the outcome is just "very good" and not excellent as anyone would have expected for the effort. After a year of maining him i can take on any character and not feel any kind of disadvantage (and a lot of times actual advantage), until sheik comes along and i know i can loose to someone below my skill level so i gotta be very very careful.

Shulk aint bad, but he is not for people that want fast results or dont want to put over 300 hours in just 1 character.
 

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Calling it now, Cloud is going to go even with Cloud. You can quote me on this.
 

TDK

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Calling it now, Cloud is going to go even with Cloud. You can quote me on this.
Doesn't every character go even with themselves?

Anyways, what do you guys think are the hardest characters in this game to learn?

I'd go with:

:4ryu: :4shulk: :4peach: and :rosalina:.
 

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Doesn't every character go even with themselves?

Anyways, what do you guys think are the hardest characters in this game to learn?

I'd go with:

:4ryu: :4shulk: :4peach: and :rosalina:.
/s

Also, get Rosa outta there lmao. She's not easy but she's definitely not too 4 for hardest to learn.
 

TurboLink

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Doesn't every character go even with themselves?

Anyways, what do you guys think are the hardest characters in this game to learn?

I'd go with:

:4ryu: :4shulk: :4peach: and :rosalina:.
I'd put Olimar on that list.
 

Wintropy

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I'd put Olimar on that list.
Olimar honestly isn't that difficult to learn. It takes a bit of time to figure out what each Pikmin does and how to use them in synchronicity with each-other, but when you can micromanage his Pikmin effectively, he's just another defensive zoner character.

I'd say Ryu is a tricky character to get to grips with, in that he requires more than just technical skill with his true inputs: your stage control and footsies have to be on point too. The fact that he has difficulty weaving in the air is a good example of how faithful he is to traditional (competitive) fighting games, which is very different to how Smash is designed to be played. I don't think he's necessarily more difficult to play or master than other characters, he just doesn't operate in quite the same way that most of the cast does. That's probably one of the reasons why we don't see much Ryu in tourneys. You have to play Ryu on his terms, not your own.
 
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