Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[NachoOfCheese]

In regards to Cloud: I don't see why people are saying: 'can't be higher than mid tier' or 'He's like Ike, but... (Insert reason here (saw Twitch do this more, but it should still be noted))'. And I'm sitting here thinking...what? This character trailer JUST came out, the character isn't even out yet. Unless you all are psychics, just give it some time. We're trying to give a rundown of a character that isn't even out. We're dissecting something that's not there. Overall, I'm optimistic for cloud. His Limit Break seems cool (though I've never played FF before, so the mechanic may just be new to me). He actually has a projectile (something other swordies like Marth, MK and Ike would probably enjoy a lot), and the range on his sword is always a plus. Of course, this is obviously speculation as well, but at least I'm not trying to decide whether a character is good or not. I'm just noting what I saw. One more thing: like I said, the characters not out yet. To those who thought that Cloud's Frame data was rather subpar in the trailer. You do realize Nintendo could always change it at this point in time...right? It's not impossible. I'm sure they've done it before when other characters were still in development. Overall, it's fair to talk about Cloud. Share your thoughts and speculation, I'm all for it (not sure if it's the healthiest topic for this thread, but whatever. I'm not in charge). But there's a time and a place for deciding how viable a character is...and since when is the short trailer for the character that point in time?

This is still more productive than the custom moves argument a couple pages ago lol

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm finding incredibly hard to not talk about cloud. I wish he was released after the direct like all that other junk. Ummmmmm.........
how about...uhhhh.....is there ever a point where lucina has a better MU than Marth? When should you ever use her?

Cloud is still all I'm thinking about though..........

Edit: WHOOP! WHOOP! i'm smash journeyman boys! i love promotions!

granted it means nothing but........

 

[Antonykun]

So one thing about Cloud
His F-air can spike, that could make his edgeguarding all sorts of dangerous

 

[Y2Kay]

I find it hilarious there's a "I Was Wrong" Thread on the brand new the Cloud Mains subforum for people to admit they were wrong about who they thought would win the smash ballot / doubted cloud would make it in the game.

like anyone actually saw this one coming lol

 

[Vipermoon]

I'm finding incredibly hard to not talk about cloud. I wish he was released after the direct like all that other junk. Ummmmmm.........
how about...uhhhh.....is there ever a point where lucina has a better MU than Marth? When should you ever use her?

Cloud is still all I'm thinking about though..........

Edit: WHOOP! WHOOP! i'm smash journeyman boys! i love promotions!

granted it means nothing but........

There are a couple of MUs that are probably even between them and there are times like vs Luma that Marth is the way better choice. But there definitely aren't any situations where Lucina is more effective.

 

[Ffamran]

Cloud's second hit of Down Smash seems like it's hitting far back... Welp, there's an edgeguard option for him except it doesn't reach the ground unlike Link's. Also, interesting thing about Cloud; most of his moves look like they are close to his body unlike other swordsmen like Marth, Roy, Ike, Link, and Shulk. Jab 3, dash attack, Utilt, Ftilt, Up Smash, Side Smash, Down Smash, Uair, Fair, Dair, and Blade Beam assuming it can hit pointblank all look short-ranged for a swordsman which means Cloud can put up disjoints fairly close to him. Contrasting this, he has Nair, Bair, Crimhazzard, Cross Slash, and of course, Blade Beam's beam as far-reaching moves and melee moves, jab 1, jab 2, and Dtilt which will probably be fast. This might be weird, but Cloud might actually be a "close-range" swordsman sort of like Roy and the Pits - hell, Cloud looks like he has less range than the Pits. This becomes weirder when he looks like average speed at best when it comes to attack speed.

So one thing about Cloud
His F-air can spike, that could make his edgeguarding all sorts of dangerous

So... Snake Fair? Calling it! Final Fantasy VII: The Phantom Pain starring Punished "Venom" Cloud and Aerith, a florist deprived of her life. Coming to Broadway in July 7th, 2017.

... I'll go to my sad corner.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Cloud's second hit of Down Smash seems like it's hitting far back... Welp, there's an edgeguard option for him except it doesn't reach the ground unlike Link's. Also, interesting thing about Cloud; most of his moves look like they are close to his body unlike other swordsmen like Marth, Roy, Ike, Link, and Shulk. Jab 3, dash attack, Utilt, Ftilt, Up Smash, Side Smash, Down Smash, Uair, Fair, Dair, and Blade Beam assuming it can hit pointblank all look short-ranged for a swordsman which means Cloud can put up disjoints fairly close to him. Contrasting this, he has Nair, Bair, Crimhazzard, Cross Slash, and of course, Blade Beam's beam as far-reaching moves and melee moves, jab 1, jab 2, and Dtilt which will probably be fast. This might be weird, but Cloud might actually be a "close-range" swordsman sort of like Roy and the Pits - hell, Cloud looks like he has less range than the Pits. This becomes weirder when he looks like average speed at best when it comes to attack speed.


So... Snake Fair? Calling it! Final Fantasy VII: The Phantom Pain starring Punished "Venom" Cloud and Aerith, a florist deprived of her life. Coming to Broadway in July 7th, 2017.

... I'll go to my sad corner.

His DSmash is basically better Ganon DSmash so it seems. His attack speed doesn't actually seem that unimpressive although you're probably right, his movement speed on the ground looks good so I imagine he'll be a "close range" swordfighter except unlike Roy he can be a bit more liberal with his spacing and his smashes look pretty damn good too!

Doesn't seem too bad. I think he'll be good especially if Limit Break builds like it does in FF7. It'll be like having mini-charge shot tier punishes and super recovery after a lot of damage. He'll be unique for sure, I can't see him being noteworthily bad but TIME WILL TELL.

 

[meleebrawler]

So one thing about Cloud
His F-air can spike, that could make his edgeguarding all sorts of dangerous

Or setup kill combos/tech-chases on stage. It certainly doesn't look too laggy to do this.

 

[Ffamran]

His DSmash is basically better Ganon DSmash so it seems. His attack speed doesn't actually seem that unimpressive although you're probably right, his movement speed on the ground looks good so I imagine he'll be a "close range" swordfighter except unlike Roy he can be a bit more liberal with his spacing and his smashes look pretty damn good too!

Doesn't seem too bad. I think he'll be good especially if Limit Break builds like it does in FF7. It'll be like having mini-charge shot tier punishes and super recovery after a lot of damage. He'll be unique for sure, I can't see him being noteworthily bad but TIME WILL TELL.

Everyone's been mentioning Ganondorf's Down Smash to compare with Cloud's. What happened to Toon Link? Did he suddenly get patched out for room for Cloud? Hell, he's on the left side of your screen if you're on Smashboards desktop!

Anyway... adom mentioned that Cloud's air speed might be bad in Cloud's moveset thread. There's that issue there... If that's the case, he could be a reverse Ike where his ground speed is high, but his air speed is low. Speaking of ground speed, off-topic: really annoying how Cloud does not run at all. First off, dashing is a temporary and repeated action in Dissidia while running's constant. Cloud doesn't dash around continually in Dissidia and it looks kind of out of place in my opinion. His walk wasn't shown and if it's his actual run, that would be both stupid and cool; something like "walk" speed is like 1.2, but "run" speed is 1.65.

Continuing, Cloud might have a low jump. He doesn't seem to go that far up with his first jump and decently up with his double jump. Can't tell since trailers, but if he has a low jump, low air speed, lack of a horizontal recovery move, and low Up Special vertical distance... Cloud might be a bit screwed off stage even if his aerials are fairly fast and cover good range. Granted, if Cloud has low air speed, but high air speed acceleration, that might balance it out even if his air speed was like 0.6, but his air speed acceleration was 0.2 - that would be an insane air speed acceleration he and nobody would have unless their air speed was like 0.21. At the same time, going off of Dissidia since that was his the only other fighting game he was in, air speed in that game was bad for everyone since everyone could continually air dash. Air dashes don't exist in Smash...

Edit: We have estimates.

I might as well add my observations to the speculation melting pot:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3smdlo/estimate_frame_data_and_analysis_for_clouds/

Based on gfys that were roughly 29-30fps, so I merely counted the frames and approximately doubled them so it's all rough estimates.

Tbh with regards to Cross Slash and Blade Beam, I'm not quite sure which is which for Neutral B and Side B. The more I think about it the more I think it's more likely to be Blade Beam N-B and Cross Slash S-B but hey I guess we'll wait and see. Up B definitely seems like a combination of Climhazzard as he rises and Braver as he crashes down.

 

[Thinkaman]

Cloud discussion is okay, but only because I have a soul.

As many have pointed out, there are dedicated places to discuss the hype surrounding Cloud and speculate about his moveset.

My Cloud thoughts:

• D-smash looks fast and terrifying. Bad news for Doc and Mac, that's for sure?
• Uair and maybe fair seem like solid hitboxes.
• His (neutral-B?) projectile seems pretty good, but like all projectiles endlag is everything. We'll see.
• Think how much power, how important, Monado/KO Punch/Lightweight/Deep Breathing are. Limit Break is surely be a crucial part of Cloud's bottom line, and its exact mechanics will have a huge impact on that.
• At the end of the day, it's super impossible to judge a character at all without damage numbers.
• Also, any of this could change considerably by Cloud's release, which is at least a month away.

Final thought: People upset that the stage has hazards or likely isn't tourney legal are silly. You really want another Battlefield clone? Why?

 

[Big-Cat]

I think it's just they want the aesthetic, which is satisfied with the omega stage.

Thinkaman I saw that you liked my post on my elaboration, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

 

[C0rvus]

going off of Dissidia since that was his the only other fighting game he was in

 

[TriTails]

Oh look another Battlefiel-

*Stage is split*
*WTF lasers beams*

Lmao.

Seems like Limit Break is supposed to be charged. The bar doesn't seem to be visible otherwise.

I honestly don't know what to think about Cloud. Some of his moves look a lot to Ike's (Which is lol when you think about the reason Chrom didn't make it to the cut) but it's kinda impossible to tell how hard he hits because the damage bar isn't there.

We're just gonna have to wait. And possible balance patch when Cloud comes out? I'm in.

 

[Routa]

Final thought: People upset that the stage has hazards or likely isn't tourney legal are silly. You really want another Battlefield clone? Why?

But BF is the the most neutral stage ever!

/s

Also I see people from time to time claiming that having a short jump is über duper bad thing. Ofc recovery wise short jump is a bad thing, but having a short jump might be better for offensive game (Doc). Then there is also the AC things. Anyways which characters can abuse their short jumps well?

Edit: I mean short jump distance and not short hop. Just wanted to make sure that you guys know what I mean.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm glad Thinkaman has a soul, but if those video based frame data estimates are accurate, Cloud is going to be a pretty slow guy on the attack. That data suggests his jab is f4 at best (maybe f5), his utilt, uair, and dsmash are "okay", and everything else is really slow compared to a normal character. His sword is huge, he has good movement at least on the ground, he has a large projectile (with really unknown general safety), and his limit break mechanic seems to reward buying time. My early concept for how I'd want to play this theoretical character is very defensive. I'd be going for frequent retreats, using Cloud's high ground speed, projectile, and long sword to control space. If my opponent stops challenging me and backs up themselves, start charging Limit Break to either pressure an approach or just get the huge buff. I'm not really seeing the idea that Cloud would be a more close-range fighter compared to other swordsmen; what would Cloud appear to gain from being anywhere but max spacing? His sword does seem shorter than Ike's or Shulk's so in those MUs he might have to get creative (worth noting he has a projectile while they don't), but in most MUs he'll easily win that spacing war whereas in most MUs the other guy will have attacks that start up way faster than Cloud's.

Without knowing way more than we do, it's impossible to know Cloud's overall quality or exact dynamics, but for my part using what we do know, I'm looking forward to team disjointed zoning getting another member and just hope Limit Break is strong enough to give him the attrition victory versus characters like Villager and Olimar that currently so vex the other members of team disjointed zoning.

 

[LancerStaff]

In regards to Cloud: I don't see why people are saying: 'can't be higher than mid tier' or 'He's like Ike, but... (Insert reason here (saw Twitch do this more, but it should still be noted))'. And I'm sitting here thinking...what? This character trailer JUST came out, the character isn't even out yet. Unless you all are psychics, just give it some time. We're trying to give a rundown of a character that isn't even out. We're dissecting something that's not there. Overall, I'm optimistic for cloud. His Limit Break seems cool (though I've never played FF before, so the mechanic may just be new to me). He actually has a projectile (something other swordies like Marth, MK and Ike would probably enjoy a lot), and the range on his sword is always a plus. Of course, this is obviously speculation as well, but at least I'm not trying to decide whether a character is good or not. I'm just noting what I saw. One more thing: like I said, the characters not out yet. To those who thought that Cloud's Frame data was rather subpar in the trailer. You do realize Nintendo could always change it at this point in time...right? It's not impossible. I'm sure they've done it before when other characters were still in development. Overall, it's fair to talk about Cloud. Share your thoughts and speculation, I'm all for it (not sure if it's the healthiest topic for this thread, but whatever. I'm not in charge). But there's a time and a place for deciding how viable a character is...and since when is the short trailer for the character that point in time?

Because characters are balanced very linearly in Smash. Fast characters are good, slow characters are bad baring like Ike and Mewtwo. (Plz no Mewtwo arguments, I'm just saying for a fairly fast character he's not great.) Also characters with good recoveries are almost always fast and weak, while characters with bad recoveries are usually slow and powerful. Between how many killing blows Cloud got, his underwhelming recovery, lacking combos, apparent lack of speed on attacks, and how often a gimmick like the Limit Break thing falls apart in 1v1s (hellooooo Monado Arts), it's not a great outlook for Cloud.

Well actually to simplify it, balancing Smash primarily involves how many kills you get vs. how much you die in FFAs. Mewtwo's packing a ton of power but he's large and light. Conversely, Sheik needs to kill in specific ways (throw combos being fairly slow limits the usefulness namely) but sports a great recovery and a safe playstyle. Again, since Cloud's recovery looks bad he's going to be getting a lot more kills to make up for it.

So one thing about Cloud
His F-air can spike, that could make his edgeguarding all sorts of dangerous

Chances are high that it requires a sweetspot, is pretty weak, or some combination of the two kinda like Pit's Dair. In the trailer when he spikes Mario he's practically on top of him...

 

[Thinkaman]

Because characters are balanced very linearly in Smash. Fast characters are good, slow characters are bad baring like Ike and Mewtwo. (Plz no Mewtwo arguments, I'm just saying for a fairly fast character he's not great.)

I consider Mewtwo quite slow. He has great horizontal aerial speed and good dodges, but his frame data is certainly on the slow side (with power to match at least) and the rest of his mobility is nothing to write home about.

Edit - The best question any of us can ask about Cloud right now is:

"What is it that makes Ike good and Shulk bad?"

10 points to the most concise yet comprehensive answer.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I consider Mewtwo quite slow. He has great horizontal aerial speed and good dodges, but his frame data is certainly on the slow side (with power to match at least) and the rest of his mobility is nothing to write home about.

Edit - The best question any of us can ask about Cloud right now is:

"What is it that makes Ike good and Shulk bad?"

10 points to the most concise yet comprehensive answer.

The fact that Ike doesn't rely on Monados, generally has better frame data (a compromise for reach), and can get people off of him a bit better? I feel like the Monado as a gimmick is cool but it holds Shulk back a good deal because they had to balance it out, and they did it the only way they knew how.

I also think his kill power is more consistent and doesn't fluctuate like Shulk's depending on Monado, which I think will be less of an issue with Cloud since he doesn't have like 5 modes that change his attributes, but again, time will tell.

Essentially, my answer to your insight I wager is this: How consistent is Cloud at doing what is important, with what's important being the ability to close stocks effectively. If he doesn't rely on Limit Break to end stocks at reasonable percents I would imagine he'll be fine. It's up to them to not make his mechanic a very large crutch, really.

INTERESTING SIDE NOTE ABOUT CLOUD: I am pretty sure he's the first Sword character in Smash to have a projectile (I should say, decent range sword character).

Also to note about Cloud's speed, he doesn't really look significantly slower than Ike in terms of attack speed based on most of our frame data suggestions so if there's anything to critique or ask for insight into, I'd say it's the damn Limit Break system which we will have absolutely no idea about until he's out so....yeah. His movement speed on the ground looks good, not sure about the air, and we have nothing concise on jump heights either. Really this trailer showed off more of his normal attacks than it did his actual character attributes.

I think it's very easy to think negatively based on trailers now given what we know about the meta and how we know trailers are but I think for a character like this we'd best wait it out before we make too many grand assumptions. I can only lay claim to rough attack frame data estimates as anything of real factual note, everything else I've laid out is simply speculation or insight. I can't say he'll be good but I'm not gonna say he's gonna suck when we have so little to go off of. (We don't even know his damage or the full effects of Limit Break, how much it amplifies, etc.)

Sorry for all this rambling, the answer about Ike and Shulk is just like, two small segments =V

 

[Ikes]

So I took a break to play steet fighter for a month or two and coming back to smash 4 and playing wario

jesus was he always this easy? It seems like i can just throw out fairs and never eat a punish because his mobility x the new shield stun makes it just safe enough if you weave out when it hits, soft or hard.

not to mention B-Revered FF chomp is an almost universally safe mixup and he gets 12 PERCENT OFF OF HIS FTHROW

i feel like all i have to do is throw out fairs, get a few chomps in, and bait for grabs until i kill at 120 with usmash or pull of an easy gimp (which is also a universailly safe option because theres almost no situation where wario cant make it back or be gimped)

like are we still calling Wario upper mid? This fat cat could easily pull top with more rep.

 

[LancerStaff]

I consider Mewtwo quite slow. He has great horizontal aerial speed and good dodges, but his frame data is certainly on the slow side (with power to match at least) and the rest of his mobility is nothing to write home about.

Edit - The best question any of us can ask about Cloud right now is:

"What is it that makes Ike good and Shulk bad?"

10 points to the most concise yet comprehensive answer.

Maybe it's just that whenever I think of Mewtwo I think of his Dtilt and his, uh one Smash with little endlag... IDK. I say silly things when I don't get sleep.

I'm going to say Shulk's Monado Arts being kinda useless in 1v1s. Jump and Speed give him an unparalleled ability to run and hide in FFAs, but in 1v1s it doesn't work unless you had the lead to begin with and usually characters have good enough ways to catch him in at least one. Shield is seriously useful in FFAs because it lets him throw out whatever without worrying about being punished, even at ridiculous percents. 1v1s even Dorf outcamps him in Shield. Buster I find hard to see a great value in either format, but Smash is much more useful when there's multiple people you can potentially kill wether or not you're at kill % yourself.

Ike can't run away so his recovery is better, he can't tank hits like mad so he has quicker finishers, and he can't kill at OMG%s without laggy as heck smashes.

Cloud's looking like a straight powerhouse with a little opportunistic charging thrown in. If Limit Breaks let him get super early kills then either they'll take forever to charge or he won't have any safety whatsoever.

INTERESTING SIDE NOTE ABOUT CLOUD: I am pretty sure he's the first Sword character in Smash to have a projectile (I should say, decent range sword character).

and I guess say hi.

Sorry, needed to let that out. Pit's got range just like Marth's and a great projectile. Junior I always hear compared to sword characters with his disjoints and he has somewhat effective projectiles too.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Well, it does beat spotdodge, and beating defenses is always a non-trivial property of attacks. Jab is a way better tool of that trait, but f-tilt does have pretty impressive disjointed range.

It's not good, but it's not worthless. Imo Palutena d-tilt is a far more useless move, and u-tilt isn't great either.

Can't agree with that at all. Dtilt is basically a better Ftilt. It's still meaty and has good range, but it recovers much, much faster. It's still not good, but Ftilt is hot garbage. I cannot think of a single situation in which you'd use Ftilt where Dtilt or Jab wouldn't be much, much better. It beats Spotdodge, sure, but so does wait-> whatever for better safety or a charged smash for better reward.

Utilt is a good move in my eyes despite having niche use because it fills it's niche so well as an anti air (and desperation kill move that links okay out of jab)

 

[TTTTTsd]

Maybe it's just that whenever I think of Mewtwo I think of his Dtilt and his, uh one Smash with little endlag... IDK. I say silly things when I don't get sleep.

I'm going to say Shulk's Monado Arts being kinda useless in 1v1s. Jump and Speed give him an unparalleled ability to run and hide in FFAs, but in 1v1s it doesn't work unless you had the lead to begin with and usually characters have good enough ways to catch him in at least one. Shield is seriously useful in FFAs because it lets him throw out whatever without worrying about being punished, even at ridiculous percents. 1v1s even Dorf outcamps him in Shield. Buster I find hard to see a great value in either format, but Smash is much more useful when there's multiple people you can potentially kill wether or not you're at kill % yourself.

Ike can't run away so his recovery is better, he can't tank hits like mad so he has quicker finishers, and he can't kill at OMG%s without laggy as heck smashes.

Cloud's looking like a straight powerhouse with a little opportunistic charging thrown in. If Limit Breaks let him get super early kills then either they'll take forever to charge or he won't have any safety whatsoever.



and I guess say hi.

Sorry, needed to let that out. Pit's got range just like Marth's and a great projectile. Junior I always hear compared to sword characters with his disjoints and he has somewhat effective projectiles too.

Being #2-3 on the list of swordies with a projectile ain't so bad I guess.

I also like to think in my head that having a projectile will really help in a lot of scenarios here especially with Limit Break being a sort of "anti-stall" sort of deal. Oh well, speculation! I'd rather just wait and see.

That being said I think Cloud'll be decent if nothing else. You have to keep in mind they're designing Limit Break for more than killing. Look at how much it aided his recovery, for instance! I think a lot of Limit Breaks uses will be MU specific so I doubt they'll radically alter his kill power, they seem to really only change his specials, actually. Which means a lot of the time you're probably going to want to keep Limit Break ready for his Up+B because then his Up+B range goes from "okay" to "REALLY FAR WOW". Which is why I'm kind of not worried the more I think about it, Limit Break seems more utility based than taking stocks, outside of what appears to be Finishing Touch (that little spin that kills two people) in the trailer. I'm pretty sure his KO rate will be consistent, doesn't seem to be much like Deep Breathing at all.

 

[LancerStaff]

Being #2-3 on the list of swordies with a projectile ain't so bad I guess.

I also like to think in my head that having a projectile will really help in a lot of scenarios here especially with Limit Break being a sort of "anti-stall" sort of deal. Oh well, speculation! I'd rather just wait and see.

That being said I think Cloud'll be decent if nothing else. You have to keep in mind they're designing Limit Break for more than killing. Look at how much it aided his recovery, for instance! I think a lot of Limit Breaks uses will be MU specific so I doubt they'll radically alter his kill power, they seem to really only change his specials, actually. Which means a lot of the time you're probably going to want to keep Limit Break ready for his Up+B because then his Up+B range goes from "okay" to "REALLY FAR WOW". Which is why I'm kind of not worried the more I think about it, Limit Break seems more utility based than taking stocks, outside of what appears to be Finishing Touch (that little spin that kills two people) in the trailer. I'm pretty sure his KO rate will be consistent, doesn't seem to be much like Deep Breathing at all.

Finishing touch eh? That's the thing that looks really powerful to me, alongside Dsmash. Looks like it lasts a while and has tons of range.... Even the name sounds pretty powerful, heh.

Eh, IDK. I'm pretty excited to see how he'll turn out, even if I don't sound it. Seems like a really cool design that potentially isn't heavily bogged down by some other crippling aspects.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Finishing touch eh? That's the thing that looks really powerful to me, alongside Dsmash. Looks like it lasts a while and has tons of range.... Even the name sounds pretty powerful, heh.

Eh, IDK. I'm pretty excited to see how he'll turn out, even if I don't sound it. Seems like a really cool design that potentially isn't heavily bogged down by some other crippling aspects.

Yeah I think, from what I've seen, they're trying to make a seriously good gimmick Swordsman with Cloud. One that doesn't bog him down but rather enhances him when you can pull it off. Ideally he'll be competent without it and I think the design and concept of Limit Break falls into that category. I can only hope, I'm quite excited! I'll have to agree, Cloud's DSmash seems ridiculously good even just on paper, his other moves look competent and his mobility on the ground seems ok. Thankfully Limit Break doesn't seem to be a requirement so much as a goal, so that's a start.

And yeah, just confirmed it. My memory serves me well, it is indeed Finishing Touch.

Spoiler: Finishing Touch's actual in-game animation, for bonus!

 

[bc1910]

Edit - The best question any of us can ask about Cloud right now is:

"What is it that makes Ike good and Shulk bad?"

10 points to the most concise yet comprehensive answer.

No monados, no killing problems, no bottom 5 frame data, no contest.

With regard to Cloud, ITA that people need to hold fire with these assumptions. I would have bet my life savings on Lucas being high tier after I saw his trailer (fast attacks, powerful aerials, THAT down throw, and assumedly none of his grab release issues from Brawl) and we all know how that turned out. Mewtwo looked really powerful too. Ryu is the only one who I would say lived up to his trailer, and that's partly because he benefitted massively from the shield nerf shortly after his release. Yes, Cloud's frame data doesn't look promising, but it's not safe to assume anything yet. If that projectile has low enough endlag he's going to be terrifying.

 

[TTTTTsd]

No monados, no killing problems, no bottom 5 frame data, no contest.

With regard to Cloud, ITA that people need to hold fire with these assumptions. I would have bet my life savings on Lucas being high tier after I saw his trailer (fast attacks, powerful aerials, THAT down throw, and assumedly none of his grab release issues from Brawl) and we all know how that turned out. Mewtwo looked really powerful too. Ryu is the only one who I would say lived up to his trailer, and that's partly because he benefitted massively from the shield nerf shortly after his release. Yes, Cloud's frame data doesn't look promising, but it's not safe to assume anything yet. If that projectile has low enough endlag he's going to be terrifying.

I'm inclined to agree here. Although his projectile in the video does look pretty good (he throws another one almost immediately upon landing after throwing one in the air), what strikes me as solid about them is the size. It's a fairly big projectile for something that requires no charge or long start up of any sort.

Other than that he reminds me of Ike a bit, seems to be a very interesting character. Very much his own thing though, can't wait to see how it works out.

 

[Routa]

No monados, no killing problems, no bottom 5 frame data, no contest.

I would personally say that one of the biggest problems that Shulk has is low damage/hit. Shulk has to work for getting thous % when Ike can just Fair 3-4 times and then you are already at kill % (maybe I bit over exaggerated but you get the point).

Also I feel sorry for every Wario main. More disjoints... Yey...

 

[Mr. Johan]

If predictions are right and Limit Break is a chargeable Dspecial that gets replaced with Finishing Touch when activated, then Limit Break might get a time limit of sorts. Otherwise Cloud can just hold it until he's in range for a super strong Finishing Touch attack and let it rip.

I guess they could make it similar to Mac's KO Punch where it cancels out after a good hit, but unlike Mac, Cloud has an aerial game and a level of safety/flexibility in the air so you can't force Cloud into an "I lose" condition, and Finishing Touch can likely be just as strong in the air with a still-wide hitbox.

If either case happens though, then Limit Break is basically a nonthreat to passive aggressive characters like Sonic and Villager. Just run until you can get a good hit in, bam, Cloud's gotta get Limit Break up again.

December will shed some light on that.

 

[Mario766]

There's more to it.

Shulk has even worse frame data than Ike.

That's HARD. Name me an attack of Shulk's that out-speeds Ike's that isn't a smash attack.

The answers are F-Tilt and Down Air, actually.

Too bad Ike's kit is so overkited now it doesn't matter. Ike's F-Tilt kills better and does better for spacing, and our down air has an actual use for footstool combos. Our jab works much better, with better range and it being frame 4. Our dash attack is obscenely powerful. Down tilt actually sets up follow-ups, our up tilt kills and hits well on the ground.

Worse frame data
Less damage on hit
Less follow-ups
Lacking in mobility outside of monados.
Worse recovery outside of Monados.
Worse landing lag + abysmal auto cancels

There's your tl;dr.

 

[LancerStaff]

No monados, no killing problems, no bottom 5 frame data, no contest.

With regard to Cloud, ITA that people need to hold fire with these assumptions. I would have bet my life savings on Lucas being high tier after I saw his trailer (fast attacks, powerful aerials, THAT down throw, and assumedly none of his grab release issues from Brawl) and we all know how that turned out. Mewtwo looked really powerful too. Ryu is the only one who I would say lived up to his trailer, and that's partly because he benefitted massively from the shield nerf shortly after his release. Yes, Cloud's frame data doesn't look promising, but it's not safe to assume anything yet. If that projectile has low enough endlag he's going to be terrifying.

I still don't think we can just say "he may be top tier guys" though. I freakin' called Lucas's grab nearly ruining him before SSBU even came out. I mean... We have a good idea of what does and doesn't work, how characters with similar designs function, and we have a decent idea of how his tools besides LBs work, and LBs seem more cherry on top then 100% crucial then things like M-arts.

If predictions are right and Limit Break is a chargeable Dspecial that gets replaced with Finishing Touch when activated, then Limit Break might get a time limit of sorts. Otherwise Cloud can just hold it until he's in range for a super strong Finishing Touch attack and let it rip.

I guess they could make it similar to Mac's KO Punch where it cancels out after a good hit, but unlike Mac, Cloud has an aerial game and a level of safety/flexibility in the air so you can't force Cloud into an "I lose" condition, and Finishing Touch can likely be just as strong in the air with a still-wide hitbox.

If either case happens though, then Limit Break is basically a nonthreat to passive aggressive characters like Sonic and Villager. Just run until you can get a good hit in, bam, Cloud's gotta get Limit Break up again.

December will shed some light on that.

Thing with being able to whack it out of him is that it renders the recovery boost pretty much moot. Time could be a factor, sure hope not if he wants any chance at being viable.

 

[Trifroze]

Ike has grab follow ups, bigger reward for landing hits and a much easier time killing, it's not any more complicated than that and it doesn't need to be. Better autocancels and frame data matter quite a lot as well though, Ike's jab and bair in particular are a lot better. There are some other differences but those are the ones that actually separate them.

It's cool that FF is getting rep in Smash and Cloud is the obvious choice when it comes to that, but goddamn we already have Ike and Shulk for guys wielding big swords. I'd have rather taken Lightning (as if) who's essentially a fast Robin with weaker attacks and no limits on spell usage.

 

[Amadeus9]

Seems to me like optimal play in matchups where recovering will be a big issue for Cloud (i.e., Sheik), will be to charge limit break to just shy of fully charged, and if you get knocked off stage, finish your charge and be able to actually recover. This is assuming it works the way I think it does.

He has a ton of moves that seem busted on their own. In particular, Fair, dsmash, and dtilt look very evil. Depending on how long the wind up is for Fair, it's probably going to be very dangerous to try to edge guard him, and his edge guarding may be extremely potent...

Limit Breaker is a little odd to me, because i can't think of any reason why you would ever use Side B or Neutral B while it is active, the reward for both seems to be significantly less than the reward you get for landing his down b. You'll notice the move killed 2 fighters on either side of him in the trailer, and neither had red glow/smoke so they were both below 100%. Kinda nuts if the move is really that strong. I'm thinking both neutral and side b with limit breaker active will probably have some insane shield damage numbers or something.

All in all... I just really want to get my hands on this fighter. If he has good mobility specs... He's potentially extremely good.

 

[Mario766]

Limit Break Side-B will likely be better than expected, if the move comes out decently quick it'll likely be great as a whiff punish, or a really good hard read kill option after a laggy option.

Only if the move comes out fast

bonus points if unblockable.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I consider Mewtwo quite slow. He has great horizontal aerial speed and good dodges, but his frame data is certainly on the slow side (with power to match at least) and the rest of his mobility is nothing to write home about.

Edit - The best question any of us can ask about Cloud right now is:

"What is it that makes Ike good and Shulk bad?"

10 points to the most concise yet comprehensive answer.

Trick question because Shulk isn't bad? Shulk just seems bad because he demands a level of dedication and skill to play to his potential that is out of proportion to his final quality so the incentive for players to pick him up is very low, but that doesn't change the fact that in the very rare cases people show true dedication to Shulk that he can really deliver in a big way. Ike is a more ordinary character so it's more realistic to more frequently see him given enough of an investment to deliver substantial return.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinkaman I saw that you liked my post on my elaboration, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.[/QUOTE]

After initially optimistic review, I don't see Bowser's crawl as having sufficient acceleration to have significant value to footsies, despite promise. Thoughts?

Can't agree with that at all. Dtilt is basically a better Ftilt. It's still meaty and has good range, but it recovers much, much faster. It's still not good, but Ftilt is hot garbage. I cannot think of a single situation in which you'd use Ftilt where Dtilt or Jab wouldn't be much, much better. It beats Spotdodge, sure, but so does wait-> whatever for better safety or a charged smash for better reward.

Waiting for a reaction, including holding a smash charge, implicitly adds 10-12 frames to the startup of a move. "Void" actions like this thus lose to virtually any offensive action. Palutena f-tilt is still a bad option in competition with amazing jab and grab alternatives, but it still unconditionally beats spot-dodges over a very large disjointed range at f17 speed, which is indeed a competitive speed for that unusual niche.

There are some situations I throw it out over a ledge, since it lasts for like 23 frames and doesn't have the inferior range, disjoint, and trading of nair.

 

[bc1910]

Shulk isn't good.

I am not aware of any notable results from Shulk nor does the theory stack up in his favour. What notable MUs does he win?

He's annoying for characters who lack the raw movement speed and/or frame data to challenge his aerial spacing and get past his walls. "Annoying" doesn't mean he beats them though. He is almost always forced to approach, somewhat susceptible to zoning, and only his Speed art is truly scary. His advantage state actually isn't bad but his low damage per hit contributes a lot to his struggles with zoners.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Cloud kinda reminds me of Dante from mvc3. His moves are very flashy and his projectile looks like dante's drive ( i think it's called) his limit break gives him more specails or powered up specails like devil trigger.

It's going to be interesting to see how Cloud develops though. I hope his moves aren't as slow as shulk's that will doom him as a character.

 

[Routa]

What notable MUs does he win?

... Wa?

Not sure if Wario gets beaten by Shulk, but at least he is really really REALLY hard to beat (dem disjoints). In my eyes Wario's worst MU. But then again I don't main him anymore and it has been quite a lot of time since I played that MU or saw that MU so... Take with a gain of salt.

 

[Ghostbone]

Trick question because Shulk isn't bad? Shulk just seems bad because he demands a level of dedication and skill to play to his potential that is out of proportion to his final quality so the incentive for players to pick him up is very low, but that doesn't change the fact that in the very rare cases people show true dedication to Shulk that he can really deliver in a big way. Ike is a more ordinary character so it's more realistic to more frequently see him given enough of an investment to deliver substantial return.

Shulk is very very bad.

There's a reason 9B's placings were very mediocre back when he used to main Shulk, despite being one of the best smash players in the world. It doesn't matter how much dedication you give Shulk, he'll still struggle to break bottom 10.

Many top players have tried to dabble with Shulk, he is a very deep and interesting character after all.
They've just all failed because Shulk has very few redeeming qualities.

His damage on hit is very low, his startup and endlag on most moves is atrocious (especially since he can't auto-cancel anything), his mobility is very bad without arts, he has basically no fast kill moves.....
Monados only fix one problem at any specific time while exacerbating his other issues, that's not a recipe for success.

 

[Y2Kay]

Being #2-3 on the list of swordies with a projectile ain't so bad I guess.

COUGH CHOUGH COUGH CHOUGH

Also, on the topic of Shulk, All I'm gonna say is he seems bad. I don't wanna write him off just yet.