Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Y2Kay]

Another thing to consider in this results/theory talk is that, as much as the tournament scene has exploded for Smash in general, there are only a finite number of tournaments possible. Over in Street Fighter IV, M. Bison (Dictator) famously has never won a major, and yet is considered somewhere between mid tier and high tier. depending on the game. Characters purportedly worse than Bison have taken championships. You could say Bison is sort of in a Yoshi situation, but I think it more has to do sometimes with simple luck of the draw. If someone had wiped out all of the Sheiks before Scatt had to fight Vinnie, would Mega Man have been able to get all the way to the top?

That's also an excellent point. Are some serious gatekeepers to the lower characters. Depending on what characters are there, a characters chances of being in top 16 can rise or drop dramatically.

Eh, I'd say 80% bad, myself. They're big and light, so they have the same issue as Mewtwo. And Phantom Slash is just not a good move, and Samus can't even bomb-jump as effectively as she could before.

None of them are quite as garbo as Default Palutena and default Brawler, I'll admit, but they're definitely pretty awful.

Wait what? Samus is heavy, large, and floaty, not light and large.

 

[wedl!!]

Just because a character has tools or aren't 100% bad doesn't mean they're somehow viable or even matter in the meta.

It's such a weird misconception to make.

People like to talk about the lower half of the cast like they actually matter.

 

[Karinole]

...Who are you/whats your tag?

Regarding Aba's tier list, I don't see Sonic as top 3. I just don't see it. Could someone please explain to me how Sonic's matchup spread is better than, like, the other good characters'?

It's probably a product of the Japanese stagelist being very beneficial to sonic.

 

[Big-Cat]

That's also an excellent point. Are some serious gatekeepers to the lower characters. Depending on what characters are there, a characters chances of being in top 16 can rise or drop dramatically.

Wait what? Samus is heavy, large, and floaty, not light and large.

With that in mind, I'd like to go over what exactly makes them such gate keepeers. Honestly, I think is as good as she is mostly because of her projectile and killer UAir into Up B strings, even though she does have a solid kit overall. I don't think there's quite a need for a nerf except maybe something on UAir and even that is a stretch. is a strange one because it's Luma that makes her so scary. Yes, there's the crazy **** with her Saturn Ring attacks, but it's Luma hitting like a truck that makes her difficult to approach along with the fact Luma can attack if is in hitstun. I've learned the character recently and even I think that's ridiculous when no other character has that option.

is the only one I see as problematic as she essentially gets away with murder and can do it with less of a risk for a greater reward than other characters. IMO, something needs to be done about FAir and Vanish. She has way too much stage carry AND damage in her combos for her archetype.

People like to talk about the lower half of the cast like they actually matter.

Just a matter of time before you're exposed.

 

[Firefoxx]

The thing is, low tiers matter at lower levels of play and online. Which is where the vast majority of people exist.

This is the inherent problem with the term "viability." It means something different to everyone.

 

[Big-Cat]

Viability usually refers to high level play.

 

[Nobie]

People like to talk about the lower half of the cast like they actually matter.

I think that this is the absolute wrong attitude to take.

It's not even a matter of arguing whether we should be focused more on results or on theory and speculation, but rather that this thread serves many purposes that have been placed there not just by the mods but by the posters who have developed it. There are the people who participate in this thread to discuss what they think it takes to WIN. Then there are those who participate in it to get a complete image of the game, to want to know just what, say, Game & Watch does when fighting Mario, and wants the feedback of players beyond just G&W and Mario Mains, because who knows? Maybe they can contribute.

Here we have a game of semi-frequent patches, of player growth and development, and so much more. As much as results DO matter and matter a lot, there is a lot to be discovered about this game that shouldn't just be left until they suddenly get Top 8 at a major.

DKWill discovered the Ding Dong because he's a dedicated DK player, and he achieved that through knowledge and experience with the character, and knows how to Ding Dong people better than anyone else.

But DKWill doesn't post in this thread, you might say. Let's take someone who does, DunnoBro . He comes in with his research and theories and discoveries for Duck Hunt, and while he's not lighting up the entire world (though he has done increasingly well in MD/VA), I think it would be a mistake to just go, "Duck Hunt doesn't matter because he's in the lower half of the cast."

Of course, the next question would be, IS Duck Hunt in the lower half of the cast? Do we even know? You mention that only the top half of the cast matters, but what IS the top half of the cast?

I don't mean to turn this into another tier list debate, or have people argue about whose low-tier is more underrated, but top players can't even agree, and results also create bias just as much as they help. Mega Man was initially thought of as high tier, then a lot of people relegated him to low tier, and now because of Scatt he's being seen as middle tier or maybe higher. Should all Mega Man discussion have ceased when he was perceived to be in the bottom half? Should we have pretended that the character doesn't exist as long as they're not getting those results, and when they do act as if we'd just discovered a new character?

 

[DunnoBro]

ZSS is a gatekeeper because she's bar none the best at killing. The hardest thing to do in this game. So only characters with a good enough neutral AND above average advantage state can deal with her.

Rosalina is a gatekeeper mostly due to her design. They don't allow you to safely poke her and luma with with projectiles due to gpull, or bypass luma with most grab combos. You HAVE to hit luma and thus the character needs either a safeish on shield way to kill luma or start a combo and ignore luma, but also requires the mobility and advantage state to capitalize off her short disadvantage state. So only rushdown characters can deal with her. No one can outcamp Rosaluma.

In the end, I think a uair nerf to ZSS to alter the angle and demand more reads and a gpull endlag nerf is all they need. Luma should probably have it's bkb reduced or disallowed from scaling with rage like pac's key too but not 100% needed.

Also duck hunt is irrefutably in the lower half of the cast. I've played him since before even the official japanese release and probably have 300+ hours in training mode alone with him. He's really really close to being viable and if he just had one kill set-up that wasn't volatile as hell, he'd be good. (Which is why he was so good in customs.)

But uair and frisbee have issues connecting properly, you can die when they don't instead of them
Dair only sets up for kills on floaties consistently
Smashes have awful frame data and hitboxes, worst smashes in the game
Bair having a tipper mechanic on already an very linear hitbox, and actually being very weak (sweetspot only about as strong as wario or peaches)

 

[Big-Cat]

I think requiring more reads for UAir is a fair trade for the kill power she has.

I can live with no rage on Luma.

 

[Teshie U]

No one outcamping Rosaluma seems like a bit of an overstatement. I feel like Megaman, Villager, Toon Link and Olimar all can do that. Perhaps even Mewtwo and Link.

Unless you meant literally just spamming from across the stage without ever punishing gravitational, then probably just the links and olimar.

 

[GeneralLedge]

I wonder how drastically the game would change if these gatekeepers didn't exist?

Or, I wonder who the next in command for gatekeeping would be.

 

[meleebrawler]

I wonder how drastically the game would change if these gatekeepers didn't exist?

Or, I wonder who the next in command for gatekeeping would be.

Likely would have been Luigi if not for the nerf. Maybe currently Ness.

 

[Jams.]

Olimar definitely outcamps Rosalina, because of how Pikmin interact with GP and Luma (for the most part they don't, except purple who just goes through everything). This is why I feel Rosalina is at a disadvantage versus Olimar.

Ike in top 15, above Yoshi, ROB, and Wario, seems like a bridge too far to me. I feel like the results and theory just don't align. For contrast, Abadango didn't even consider Ike in his 31 viable characters. I know people have been talking optimistically about Ike a lot here recently, but putting him this high made me do a serious double-take.

Ike is definitely better than ROB. To my knowledge, Ike's recent results are better than ROB's, especially at majors, even if you include international results (where Ike has no rep). Considering theory, Ike has no matchup as bad as ROB vs ZSS, which greatly hinders ROB's viability as a solo main. Even disregarding the ZSS matchup, Ike's matchup spread with the top tiers is still likely better than ROB's, who is at some degree of disadvantage versus Mario, Sheik, Fox, Rosa, Diddy Kong, Villager, and arguably Ness.

I wonder how drastically the game would change if these gatekeepers didn't exist?

Or, I wonder who the next in command for gatekeeping would be.

Personally, I think it's Ryu or MK. They're both kind of akin to ZSS in terms of having insane punish games and being able to easily confirm the kill. Ryu also has the utilt lock, which destroys fastfallers similar to how ZSS's bread-and-butter destroys large and/or floaty characters. No character suffocates other characters the same way Rosalina does though, because no other character has anything like Luma.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Likely would have been Luigi if not for the nerf. Maybe currently Ness.

Luigi lost to too many non-gatekeepers to be top tier. Ness is the same.

The only thing I know is that Kirby is one of the only characters that actually goes down significantlly if the gatekeepers got removed. Go figure.

 

[Mario766]

I don't see how ROB is better than Ike after all the buffs to Ike and the nerfs to ROB in the patches. ROB's MU spread isn't as good as a lot of the high tiers, and ZSS may as well be an instant-loss, if 8bitman vs Nairo says anything. ROB's up-air is also very easy to DI, making it less potent as a kill option if people know how to play against the character. His weaknesses off-stage are very prevalent as well, with a player being able to abuse ROB having to go high if the ledge isn't an option, until he either gets through the character or runs out of fuel, which is a big weakness for a character.

I'm also on the fence for Falcon being top 10-15. Falcon's strengths are there, but his weaknesses are so exploitable, like Melee. He might be on that line like Melee, where it takes a really good Falcon to get far in tournament but MUs against top tier characters bring him down. They also dumbed down his really strong up-air and back-air, lowering his reward in neutral. I won't straight up say he should be lower than top 15, but even Fatality is having trouble getting into top 8, and frequently loses to Ikes...

Though I think that's just a good MU for Ike, even since like 1.0.4.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just because a character has tools or aren't 100% bad doesn't mean they're somehow viable or even matter in the meta.

It's such a weird misconception to make.

I'm not completely sure if you're where referring to me but I wasn't implying that either of them where viable.I was addressing how the post wrote the characters off without any reasoning or evidence. "100% bad" is a poor description of Zelda and Samus, if you look at stuff like melee Pichu and Kirby, where the former was literally killing himself and the latter was just a poorly functioning mess and was just poorly programmed and designed in general.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I wonder how drastically the game would change if these gatekeepers didn't exist?

"Gatekeeper" is kind of a relative term because it always depends on from which angle you're looking at things. ZSS and Rosalina are currently considered to be the main offenders but dudes like Sonic, Ryu, Sheik, Fox and Diddy also cockblock a lot of characters from getting anywhere. I don't think there are a lot of characters that get only shut out by one specific "gatekeeper" character. How many characters have their viability ruined exclusively by Rosalina?

So to answer your question ... it depends on whom you'd include among "these gatekeepers". If it's only ZSS and Rosalina then I think it'd mainly affect the game in regards to other top tiers/high tiers. Many of those happen to be gatekeepers for a huge chunk of the cast themselves. But whether G&W's day is ruined by ZSS/Rosalina or Fox/Diddy is not very relevant.

 

[DunnoBro]

They also dumbed down his really strong up-air and back-air, lowering his reward in neutral.

I was under the impression that at top level play, the uair change was considered a buff since it comboed and frame trapped better. (or was that dthrow?)

 

[Jams.]

ROB's up-air is also very easy to DI, making it less potent as a kill option if people know how to play against the character.

It's actually wacky as Hell to DI.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I don't see how ROB is better than Ike after all the buffs to Ike and the nerfs to ROB in the patches.

Literally the only nerf to ROB throughout the entire history of this game was to his upthrow, which is still like the third strongest in the game, killing at around 150, usually earlier since it will be used in tense situations where ROB has a lot of rage, and that's not even mentioning the fact that it can be assisted by tossing them onto a platform, something that can't be said about someone like, say, Mewtwo. Ike has gotten plenty of buffs, there's no denying that, but ROB has only gotten 1 nerf. It's not hard to look this stuff up people.

I don't see how ROB is better than Ike after all the buffs to Ike and the nerfs to ROB in the patches. ROB's MU spread isn't as good as a lot of the high tiers, and ZSS may as well be an instant-loss, if 8bitman vs Nairo says anything.

When it comes to ROB, the only practically-unwinnable matchup is ZSS, which you are correct about. Even then, this only applies to the absolute top level where ZSS is optimal, at mid-level the matchup may even be advantageous for ROB due to his stellar zoning tools and mid-level ZSS' very sub-optimal combos. The only other matchups that are exceptionally difficult are Mario (because he can get ridculous combos on ROB but, unlike most combo-heavy characters, ROB can't keep him at bay with projectiles. if Mario is far away from ROB he literally has no reason not to spam cape) and Sheik because A) She's ****ing Sheik and B) She may be the best at the game at stealing the gyro and running away with it excluding Villager. ROB has other bad matchups too, such as Rosalina, Toon Link, Olimar, Villager, and maybe Captain Falcon but i'm unsure about him. You may think that Falco, Fox, and Dr Mario are bad for ROB due to the reasons I listed for Mario, but none of their combo games are nearly as good as Mario's so they really don't. Especially for Fox -- despite what some may tell you, it's only 45:55 in Fox's favor or 50:50.

ROB's up-air is also very easy to DI, making it less potent as a kill option if people know how to play against the character. His weaknesses off-stage are very prevalent as well, with a player being able to abuse ROB having to go high if the ledge isn't an option, until he either gets through the character or runs out of fuel, which is a big weakness for a character.

You are correct about his upair, kinda. Its kill power can certainly be greatly reduced against a knowledgable opponent, but even with optimal DI it can still kill in at least the 80s with no problem. It's not like ROB is some linear character who needs upairs to kill, either. With a kill throw that good and incredible gyro setups into ROB's upsmash, he has no shortage of kill options. As for his weaknesses offstage, yes they do exist but ROB isn't a Duck Hunt who can't interrupt his up-b. ROB can use a move out of his up-b whenever he wants to not only get edgeguard attempts off his chest but adjust his up-b's trajectory. Furthermore, ROB doesn't need to worry about the ledge if it's disadvantageous. A lot of the time you'll see ROBs recover high and descend with his godlike nair to relieve pressure.

For what it's worth, I agree what you said about Captain Falcon.

 

[Y2Kay]

I was under the impression that at top level play, the uair change was considered a buff since it comboed and frame trapped better. (or was that dthrow?)

Yeah you're right. U air link into each other.

Only 30 minutes boys........

 

[wpwood]

Zelda isn't the worst character and if she is then that means even the worse character has some uses. Her tilts are fast and can kill. Up b is a kill move with a good read. I'm not gonna say everything but the point is she has decent tools and in this current meta no one has seemed to find a play style that suits her and that's really what any character needs. A majority of sonics don't mind the run away and time out strat because it works. Once a player finds the strat that works for the character it makes it a lot easier to play and learn the character. Esam doesn't think Samus is the worst but many other people do.

We just happen to associate results with viability. Also if a character doesn't place anywhere at a tournament how can we even consider their placement on the tier list aside from the data we have. You can't tell what moves combo into each other just from data (at least I don't think that's possible). I'm not a huge data person so I don't know everything you can learn from a character's data, but I would think you can't determine a character's optimal play style from their data (i.e. look at Mac's data and you think he could just run over someone, but he has to play very smart). You have to see the character in action and the characters we remember seeing in action are the ones we like, the ones we play ourselves, and the ones that win. Not all 3 of those overlap sometimes. So the few characters that that considers are kinda hard to compare with the 50+ other characters in the game in comparing their viability to one another. That's why we come here and discuss the characters we want to discuss, which isn't always the best characters (Palutena, Zelda, Samus, Bowser).

What works is what wins tournaments. It seems now that a lot of characters don't have stuff that works or maybe sheik just has a lot more that does work. And what works is what is viable. You just have to make your character work to be successful with them. Yes it is harder to do that with some characters more than others, but that's how you get results with a character.

BANDANNA DEE pls

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah you're right. U air link into each other.

Only 30 minutes boys........

Linking for knee is what makes it so good now though.

 

[Y2Kay]

Linking for knee is what makes it so good now though.

Oh I'm not disagreeing with you, it's a buff in disguise.

20 minutes boys......

 

[MysteriousSilver]

People like to talk about the lower half of the cast like they actually matter.

Unless your character has a matchup that invalidates the character in question, they do matter. Plenty of the lower tiers have even matchups with some viable characters, and you will run into them. This isn't Marvel 2 or something. If you don't know what they can do, you're going to end up wrecked by a worse character.

 

[Thinkaman]

The problem with that F-tier isn't just that the characters Nobie listed have wins under their belts. The idea that it's impossible to win with a character is just ridiculous.

Yeah. I don't want to fuel a circular and eternal discussion of "Exactly how bad are the low tiers in this game?" but it's transparently obvious that

I'm surprised that Bowser's crawling is almost never discussed. It's an extremely underrated tool that gives him fighting game footsies.

Can you elaborate?

People like to talk about the lower half of the cast like they actually matter.

Um, someone just won the last national by going Dr Mario in Loser's Finals.

20XX is now. Everything matters.

 

[Y2Kay]

Unless your character has a matchup that invalidates the character in question, they do matter. Plenty of the lower tiers have even matchups with some viable characters, and you will run into them. This isn't Marvel 2 or something. If you don't know what they can do, you're going to end up wrecked by a worse character.

i see this bias against low tier characters, especially ones with well known flaws constantly beaten into the ground ie: Shulk's bad frame data, Mewtwo big size + light weight, Lil Mac's sucky recovery

A common occurence when discussing Mewtwo's matchups
Person X: what can do?

Me: Mewtwo has some cool stuff, despite his flaws. He's got a good anti-zoning game, mobility, recovery, range, and power.

Person X: That maybe true Orryn, but Mewtwo dies super early and is big, so it is clearly 70:30 in my main's favor

Me: ಠ_ಠ

Spoiler: On another unrelated note.....

AAAAAAAAAAALLLL ABOOOOOOOAAAARD!!!!!!11!!!1!!!

 

[BSP]

. No one can outcamp Rosaluma.

Pac-Man has near even camping potential against her depending on the stage. Depending on how we're defining camping, wii fit outcamps her too due to healing.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Cloud?????

 

[Zelder]

Can't say I saw that one coming.

 

[Smog Frog]

please keep ninty direct stuff out of this thread

but at the same time, what the ****?

 

[wedl!!]

Wow, uh... he has a lot of similar moves to Ike.

 

[Ghostbone]

Cloud's low mid tier like all the other sword characters because of ****ty frame data imo

Maybe he'll be comparable to Ike in viability, but it's doubtful.

 

[Y2Kay]

I came to this thread just to confirm this wasn't some bizzare dream. There's no way he won the ballot. Maybe they're investing in the next FF game coming to 3DS? Then again the wii u didn't get the FF 7 HD remake. This completely opens the flood gates. Goku confirmed as next DLC character.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Cloud's low mid tier like all the other sword characters because of ****ty frame data imo

Maybe he'll be comparable to Ike in viability, but it's doubtful.

Trailer seemed to show him with faster moves. And a projectile.

We'll see. Havent' been a bad 3rd party character yet.

 

[Ghostbone]

I mean the lucina trailer made it look like L-cancelling was in the game lol, Cloud's projectile didn't look threatening and moves look faster than when you're not actually controlling the character yourself.

 

[Y2Kay]

the things we learned today:

1.) BILL! BILL! BILL! will be a new reggie meme
2.) Linkle is new waifu
3.) pokemon fans will riot thru the night
4.)Cloud in Smah?!
5.)RIP all wolf fans that so those stars in the first few seconds and thought it was him

will still love you tho

 

[Thinkaman]

I think the think which is most obviously interesting is having a Lightweight/DeepBreathing/Monado-style down-b in Limit Break.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I came to this thread just to confirm this wasn't some bizzare dream. There's no way he won the ballot. Maybe they're investing in the next FF game coming to 3DS? Then again the wii u didn't get the FF 7 HD remake. This completely opens the flood gates. Goku confirmed as next DLC character.

I think the Smash thing that's happening in December will show the real winner, I highly doubt he is the winner.

In my opinion, I think Cloud will be in high or end of top tier. He seems to have great range and amazing KO Power, I think the only thing that isn't great that we've seen so far about him is frame data iirc (My guess is it's on Ike's level)

 

[Ffamran]

Pre-Edit and really off-topic: Really? Cloud? What happened to Wolf? Or hell, Linkle!?

Spoiler: Hot off-topic stuff

At the same time, not really surprised. Nintendo and Square Enix go back in history and still maintain a good relationship as far as I know - Bravely Default and Bravely Second on 3DS, anyone? So, what's a Square Enix icon tons of people know (and has some semblance of personality)? If you answered Terra Branford, then you'd be correct and we'd have Zelda with a sword! But if you answered the Warrior of Light, people would start questioning you since they never played Dissidia and because Final Fantasy I had undefined heroes - you created their own (back)stories in you head. That's the thing: Cloud and Final Fantasy VII are iconic when people think of Square Enix; the only other option is Chocobo who would be a feathered Yoshi. It's the same with Capcom where Mega Man comes up (along with tears coming down) unless you connect Smash with fighting games and maybe people might say Ryu since some might still say Mega Man since he was in Capcom's fighting games like MvC2. Plus, Mega Man fits the theme of retro heroes with Mario, Sonic, Pac-Man, and hell, even Duck Hunt. Cloud is kind of retro, but he's nostalgic as hell for people just as Mario, Sonic, Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, Link, Samus, and more.

Also... part of me feels like this whole Cloud thing in Smash 4 hints at some Nintendo-Square Enix collaboration and it's not Bravely Third... Would have preferred Cid Highwind, Jecht, Auron, or Fang... No, I don't want Balthier in the game as much as it would be awesome for Ffamran to play Balthier... Would have preferred it even more if the other two-handed swordsperson was (Hyrule Warriors) Impa or sword in general was Anna or Raiden.

Yay! Late replies. Before that, what's the point of Palutena's Ftilt? I'd tag... er... Wintropers and RedCap-BlueSpikes since I don't know anyone except for Aerolink and Trevonte who uses Palutena here and only two of them post here...

Spoiler: Palutena's Ftilt: Spin to Lose?

Still, her Ftilt kind of feels... "pointless"? Jab lacks the meaty coverage, Utilt only hits above you, and Dtilt only hits on the ground, but that's like "angling" and each of them do better or are safer than Ftilt. When I look at Ftilts, it's not the fast pokes like Fox, Mario, ZSS, Greninja, or Captain Falcon's, the chops of Link, Marth, and Roy, or the horizontal coverage of Ike, Shulk, Villager, DK, and even Zelda whose Ftilt is transcendent if I remember correctly. It just feels there for the sake of being there. Even though it has 28 recovery frames and a total of 23 active frames, the gaps in between the first initial hitboxes is 8 frames; first hit is frame 17 and the second hit is frame 25. Another multi-hit Ftilt that comes to mind is Ryu, Little Mac, and Wolf's. Ryu's Collarbone Breaker hits on frame 13 and 15-16, Little Mac's frame 4-5 and 12-13, and Wolf's is frame 8 and 9-10. They're all different moves, yes, but the highest gap is Little Mac's which is also 8 frames, but the difference is Little Mac's first hit has set knockback letting it lead into the second hit. Ryu's is too and while Wolf's isn't, it's fast enough where it doesn't matter unlike Palutena's.

Also, it's kind of weak. Sure, it has a lot of active frames, but other high active frames multi-hits like that tend to be faster like Bowser, Bowser Jr., DK, Falco, Fox, Mega Man, and Zelda. For instance, Bowser Jr.'s Up Smash is just a frame slower and has 25 active frames. It might lack Pally's recoilless Ftilt, but it kills. Or take Triple D's Ftilt which is also a disjoint, can recoil, and has half of Pally's active frames, but it's frame 12 and does 11%. That's 5 frames faster, recovers 1 frame faster, and does 1% more. Oh, and it probably connects better than Pally's.

Pally being dependent on jab and dash attack? for pokes isn't exactly a good thing; it's a lack of rewarding options. If for instance, Pally's Ftilt was frame 12, it might be a monster because it'd be fairly average in speed, but would have a crapton of active frames to abuse. Triple D sort of does that, doesn't he? Or if it was stronger since getting hit by a frame 17 move that does a total of 10% isn't scary. Getting hit by Fox who can spam his Ftilt for 6% to 8%? That gets to the point where when you realize Fox landed 3 of them because you were stupid or spacing badly, you could have around 18% on you. In the same amount of time, Pally might only get 10%... or even none because of how slow it is. Or perhaps she tried to use it to punish a poor rush in or anti-air... Yeah, at the point, you have characters with much faster Ftilts to do that on-reaction or have other options which Pally has too like... jab, Dtilt, and dash attack for ground approaches and Utilt, Fair, Bair, or hell, even Up Smash for anti-airing. So, what's the point of her Ftilt? It doesn't even look cool like say, Sheik's Down Smash which could be an incentive for stylistic purposes. It's just a slowly spinning staff... I just realized that outside of jab, Pally doesn't actually swing her staff at all for any of her attacks. An uppercut with her staff for Ftilt kind of like Marth's Ftilt might do wonders for her.

Swordspider.

Also Falcos reflector has a notable weakness in that he cant use it to cover his landings. If he is landing and a high power projectile is coming his way and he uses reflector its just going to shoot over it and he takes the hit. Same with Palutena.

I think that's enough to send him down a rank.

Nobody can actually cover their landings with reflects and absorbs, right? Maybe the Pits since they can use it to block stuff, but even then, they're going to be locked into Guardian Orbitars' animation. Fox, Mario, and Zelda can stall in the air and Lucas can B-reverse? his PK Magnet, but that's not really land coverage more like momentum trickery.

Little nitpick, but no. Kirby can only eat explosives (unless they changed this in a recent patch), in which he suffers an eternity of lag and iirc 5%. Also, it should be noted that DDD eating projectiles isn't generally a good idea, since it's too easy to punish. At least against characters with decent ground mobility. For instance, DDD eating Luigi's fireball will treat him to an up b or a d throw. Also, I don't think DDD can eat things like Fox's/Falco's blaster, or Sheiks needles.

I don't think D3 can eat transcendent projectiles, but he can eat any others, whether they can be absorbed or not. For example he can eat Greninja's uncharged shurikens but he can't eat the fully charged transcendent one.

Ah, I remember Kirby being able to eat explosives, but I didn't remember if he could eat anything else... I guess knowing Kirby games, you kind of expect it to be a thing for Kirby to be able to eat anything. As for Triple D... I swore I saw a video about a glitch and he was able to eat Falco's Blaster lasers and those are transcendent... Maybe a Smash 4 new thing if he wasn't able to do so in Brawl? Smooth Criminal, Shrooby, or someone else could confirm... Starting to wonder if Yoshi should have the ability to eat other stuff with his Egg Lay like in Yoshi's Island.

I don't see Mac's ever snatch to the ledge with up b, is that how that move was made to be or what?

It was designed like that. Off the top of my head, Kirby, Ike, and Little Mac's Up Specials cannot ledge snap like other Up Specials like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, or Mario's. At the same time, some Up Specials can't ledge snap if you use them too high up and that's dependent on the character. So, Captain Falcon would have to use Falcon Dive pretty close up to the ledge while Marth could be lower and overshoot.

Anyway, in Little Mac's case, it's just insult to injury and emphasis on "Little Mac's *** in the air" while in Kirby and Ike's case, it's because their Up Specials cover above and then below. Kirby's you could argue that it's not really a big deal, but Ike's you can't. It'd be really stupid if Ike could throw Ragnell and the moment he rises, he automatically ledge snaps without having to shoot down. It'd the most disjointed recovery move in the entire game without major setbacks to prevent it from being stupid like in contrast to Sheik's Bouncing Fish where part of her can still be hit or Mario's where the disjoint is slight and Mario doesn't really travel up that far or Ganondorf's Dark Dive uppercut only happening at the end of it, Ike's would be a giant sword flying up at you and you can't do a damn thing since you can't punish his (nonexistent) slam down anymore.

Also, in general, a lot of the recovery moves in this game are kind of stupid. Teleports have issues with slopes, some are just way too damn good in any setting, and some are just questionable as to why they have certain properties like what was the point of making Jolt Haymaker even worse in the air?

Generally it seems like poor translation from other games (Jigglypuff, Marth, Falco) or too loyal translation to a consistently losing formula (Zelda, Mewtwo, Roy) is the primary cause of character non-viability.

I'd argue that Jigglypuff would be in the too loyal translation since she's been like this since 64. You could even argue this for Captain Falcon, except he was only screwed in Brawl because of how Brawl worked. Was it something like hit stun canceling more or less destroying his combos and tripping destroying his ability to move? Without any of that, I think Captain Falcon could have had a chance of being mid-tier at worse in Brawl. He was always a good character.

Spoiler: Jigglypuff, Marth, Falco, some Mewtwo, and Zelda rambalings

In Jiggles's case, she's a good character with a unique game plan and is pretty much the antithesis of Little Mac. Here's some problems: without edge-hogging, she can't really gimp like she used to where if she hits you off and grabs the ledge, you were down. It's a universal problem, but Jiggles used the ledge like it was her game. Now it doesn't exist so... Jiggles also exploited everyone's recovery and in a game where recovering is just easier because nobody really does anything off-stage, many recoveries are just plain too good, and that you can't get edge-hogged, Jiggles can't really do much that other edgeguarders can also do and sometimes even better since they can get their opponents off the stage much more easily. Another thing might be aerials and landing lag changes and shield changes since if Jiggles could push you off the ledge with any move, that would be terrifying as it would for other characters e.g. Falco could potentially rapid jab shield push you to Nair confirm and it Ryu might be able to light Dtilt lock to heavy Dtilt shield push and Dair.

For Marth, at least he (and Lucina) have been changed. If anything, Marth's the character changed to most while moving and looking similar to past games. He's much more spacing-orientated than setup and combo-orientated like in Melee and Brawl. They kind of made Marth go from a swashbuckler to a fencer while making Roy the swashbuckler. So, in terms of Assassin's Creed's combat system evolution, Melee and Brawl Marth would be like Brotherhood, III, IV: Black Flag, and Syndicate's? where you could pressure quickly and attack without much of an issue while Smash 4 Marth is more like I, II, and Unity where Marth can't attack, attack, and attack, but must play more defensive and cautious. In Smash's case, the community doesn't really like defensive play, so they don't like Marth in Smash 4. Maybe they do now since he does feel like what he's doing works unlike in the beginning where it sort of worked.

Falco's just no translations in all games. They did keep this in all the games, though: he's vertical. They did keep his vertical-orientated combos, but it does feel silly when that's the idea around him. Melee Falco was a vertical combo-heavy character who moved slower than Fox, but hit as fast and harder than Fox, has a projectile that stuns, and has a recovery that's just butt. Brawl? FANTASTIC! Let's give him the most broken projectile in fighting game history so Falco is still vertical combo-heavy, still hits hard and fast, ends up with a non-evolved Up Special and arguably, Side Special, unlike Ganondorf, Melee Luigi, Smash 4 Roy, and even Toon Link, but is now heavily spammy and projectile-wall-y. In Smash 4? Still hits fast and even harder, still is vertical combo-heavy with 1.0.8 rounding it to just combo-heavy and is now good at edgeguarding with still ****-poor recovery. The idea would be like Sonic = fast and Sonic ends up being a fast, but weak-hitting character in Brawl, Ganondorf levels of power, but still fast a hell in Smash 4, and Jigglypuff, but a jet in Smash 5.

Smash 4 Mewtwo's similar to Melee Mewtwo, except they made him really, really light. Why? I don't know. Hell, if he had the same weight, he might still be where he is today. Is that okay? Sure, since he's functional despite his current weight making it feel really crappy when he dies pretty earlier instead of early, but not as early like Zelda. For Mewtwo, his design, well, almost everything, works. That's something you can't really say for Zelda whose design in any setting is difficult to play. In any game, sweet-spots are cool, but when one half of your moveset is comprised of sweet-spots with really sour sour-spots, it's really bad. Marth and Roy's sweet-spot and sour-spots balance each other out. They can land sweet-spots to gain massive rewards while landing sour-spots aren't that bad, but not what they really wanted if they want to kill or launch people. In Zelda's case? Fair and Bair's rewards are good, but they aren't that kind with how the sweet-spots are and the sour-spots are almost Little Mac Nair or pre-1.1.0 Samus jab 1 levels of punishment.

Here's the thing: you can "fix" Zelda without overhauling her, but that comes with a consequence as with everything. Imagine this: let's weaken her Fair and Bair. You're probably screaming, "WHY!?", but hear me out. Give her Falco Bairs for her Fair and Bair; translation: weaken the sweet-spots so they're not stupidly strong and make the sour-spots so they're not stupidly weak. This also includes lowering her landing lag and changing her auto-cancel windows. Cool! Zelda can actually approach with aerials now... except... We just created a monster. You can fine-tune this even so it's not as crazy - Fair is more like Lucas or Wolf's so she won't have this stupidly strong option in front of her -, but thinking about it, Zelda would end up having really good options in the air to cover her sides. Is that what we want? Are we going to be fine with it? I mean, she's still slow, so she can't run or walk around like Falco or Wolf and start walling people out and she's much taller than Dr. Mario, so her attempts at walling might end up having her pretty little head getting clipped. She also would still have issues with her Din's Fire and Phantom Slash - her mid- and long-range game. Also, this does take the charm away from her as this character with a stupidly precise and stupidly strong Fair and Bair.

The idea with Zelda is she's the mage archetype. Other "mages" in this series includes Lucas, Mewtwo, Ness, Palutena, Robin, and Rosalina. Lucas and Ness are kind of like mages where their "spells" take time to "cast", but to make up for this, they're like monks who have good options close up. So, maybe paladins, but without weapons and armor or perhaps "magical monks". Mewtwo is like a traditional mage in Smash 4 who can dish out a ton of damage, but can't take damage - Black Mages are like this for Final Fantasy fans. Palutena's a mage in a sense of her close-up options aren't "good" since they're slow, but her mage-y-ness comes from her Specials which being all different makes her like a mage who has an arsenal of spells. Unfortunately, because of how Specials and customs work, she can't access them all. Robin's the spellsword or Red Mage who's capable of both magic and swordsmanship letting her fight at whatever range she pleases. This does come at a cost of her not being able to specialize in one role unlike Ike who specializes in close-range combat with his sword or Mega Man, like an archer, specializes in ranged combat. Finally, Rosalina's the puppeteer, summoner, and necromancer-type of mage who as you guessed, makes use of summons to fight for her. So, what about Zelda? Zelda still fits a mage since her Specials are like the AOE-type spells mages use... except they're really underwhelming and even weak... Din's Fire could be much weaker by losing a sweet-spot, but do constant damage in a large area kind. Done right, even in FFA, it wouldn't be that abusive of a move and Phantom Slash should have been an actual summon of a freaking spiked wall instead of a telegraphed projectile. Those are "minor" issues to a easily recognized design... and then you look at her aerials. What's with the heavily precise Fair and Bair? I can't think of any mage who uses heavily precise spells. In most cases, it's giant explosion this, summon that, and the most "precise" would still be something like telekinesis to manipulate fragile things - use the Force to create your Lightsa, Zelda... Yes, Zelda, I know the Force isn't "magic", but still - or possession which you could end up launching a ball of goop which wouldn't be that fine-tuned like sewing.

1: Downthrowing on the ledge should have wildly different properties than downthrowing onstage. To the point characters who normally don't have them get kill confirms. (50/50s or otherwise)

You mean like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EseiLsMA8k? Been a Falco (and Fox?) thing since Melee. Also, Sheik's capable of this too. Now, imagine this wacky thing: what if Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Luigi, (Dr.) Mario, and Samus D-throwing you at the ledge caused a spike? Not a stage spike, but outright, "You just got slam dunked, fool!" At that point, we will be crying not in happiness, but in sadness. Not to mention Captain Falcon could have a guaranteed gimp on all characters because of his dash grab. YAY!