Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[NachoOfCheese]

I think the think

Thinkaman thinks the think

I think the Smash thing that's happening in December will show the real winner, I highly doubt he is the winner.

In my opinion, I think Cloud will be in high or end of top tier. He seems to have great range and amazing KO Power, I think the only thing that isn't great that we've seen so far about him is frame data iirc (My guess is it's on Ike's level)

That's what they all said about Shulk but look at him now

 

[epicnights]

I'm a bit shocked by such a left field inclusion..., but hey, at least Cloud comes with a legal stag–

Lasers everywhere

...At least we got a smash-centric announcement in December.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya I wouldn't attempt to figure out his KOing power at all from the trailer. Smash trailers almost always features 1SKs or the like.

 

[Kaladin]

Competitive impression? Cloud looks like a bad character. All of his identifiable moves (or worse, the things that could be either fsmash or ftilt) have a large amount of startup, and don't appear to combo into things. That means subpar neutral and subpar advantage, even if he hits like a truck. (His projectile is nice for mod range, but won't force approach.

 

[DunnoBro]

You mean like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EseiLsMA8k?

Nah, dthrowing on the ledge alters the angle for some chars. I was just thinking of working with that.

 

[wedl!!]

We shouldn't really judge Cloud's viability from a one minute trailer lol

 

[Vipermoon]

He's another long range swordsman and in a straightforward way of thinking (obviously we barely know anything about him), his design isn't good in competitive smash. But I want to reiterate that we know almost nothing about him. Also it seems like his sword is not as long as it should be (but I get why they would do this).

Was this the Smash ballot winner? I guess we'll find out sometime in December along with other characters we may get.

 

[bc1910]

I've heard it said that Palutean's Ftilt is best used as her fourth taunt.

But really, I don't know what its purpose is. The disjoint can make for some decent edgeguards against recoveries with hitboxes I guess? Even then, Fsmash is probably better for that. Her Dtilt is bad as well, but at least it's not quite as slow. There really aren't many situations where I'd say Ftilt is the best or even a good option.

Off topic: Who in the **** actually voted for Cloud?

 

[DblCrest]

We shouldn't really judge Cloud's viability from a one minute trailer lol

Remember when people were saying Palutena was overpowered after seeing hers? ;D

 

[Ffamran]

Competitive impression? Cloud looks like a bad character. All of his identifiable moves (or worse, the things that could be either fsmash or ftilt) have a large amount of startup, and don't appear to combo into things. That means subpar neutral and subpar advantage, even if he hits like a truck. (His projectile is nice for mod range, but won't force approach.

Well, he wields a zweihander which are generally much larger than Ike's hand-and-half, Ragnell, Link's longsword - Why? Wind Waker and Twilight Princess? Why?! Link could have had faster frame data if his Master Sword was a sword like in Ocarina of Time -, Master Sword, and Marth's regular sword, Falchion meaning they're going to much more unwieldy, especially if they're as fat as the Buster Sword. Be glad Guts didn't make it in or else his average startup for sword moves would probably be like 23. SOLDIER or not, Cloud's not in the same realm as Devil May Cry's Dante and Bayonetta's... Bayonetta who can swing zweihanders like they were daggers. Even in Advent Children, you could see Cloud swings having weight.

 

[meleebrawler]

Be glad Guts didn't make it in or else his average startup for sword moves would probably be like 23.

Or a Monster Hunter with a Great Sword.

 

[FullMoon]

Off topic: Who in the **** actually voted for Cloud?

I would be shocked if Cloud wasn't an often requested character.

But anyway, watching his trailer I was like "Oh hey that stage looks good for competitive play" -stage is cut in half- "nevermind" and it just got worse from there lol

 

[meleebrawler]

I would be shocked if Cloud wasn't an often requested character.

But anyway, watching his trailer I was like "Oh hey that stage looks good for competitive play" -stage is cut in half- "nevermind" and it just got worse from there lol

Inb4 they were hiding Knights of the Round summon.

 

[Firefoxx]

I highly doubt Cloud had much to do with the ballot. Square-enix probably came to Nintendo to make this happen.

And i know we cant infer too much from the trailer, but his non-limit gauge recovery looked a lot like Ike's. and if he doesnt have a quickdraw type move things might be pretty rough for him.

 

[Kaladin]

Well, he wields a zweihander which are generally much larger than Ike's hand-and-half, Ragnell, Link's longsword, Master Sword, and Marth's regular sword, Falchion meaning they're going to much more unwieldy, especially if they're as fat as the Buster Sword. Be glad Guts didn't make it in or else his average startup for sword moves would probably be like 23. SOLDIER or not, Cloud's not in the same realm as Devil May Cry's Dante and Bayonetta's... Bayonetta who can swing zweihanders like they were daggers. Even in Advent Children, you could see Cloud swings having weight.

I've played maybe one other game than smash. (Exaggeration, but you get the idea.) Thus, the vast majority of this post appears to be complete giberish.

lot like Ike's. and if he doesnt have a quickdraw type move things might be pretty rough for him.

It appears to be identical to sword fighter's.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think we should be judging viability based on trailers. Palutena's Trailer made her look hella good, let's be honest.

I think Cloud looks decent but I'd like to wait before we judge. Let's try and keep this on character we know about! (Pretty hype though)

 

[Big-Cat]

Cloud's low mid tier like all the other sword characters because of ****ty frame data imo

Maybe he'll be comparable to Ike in viability, but it's doubtful.

By ****ty frame data, you mean can't jump in with aerials as safely.

Can you elaborate?

Sure. Unlike just about every character with a crawl, Bowser can't use it to avoid projectiles. He's simply too big. So what reason does he have for it? He can walk backwards and not lose the direction he's facing. I've found it very useful for sending out DTilt. Same with edge guarding without losing too much space like you would with running or rolling.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm most interested in the Limit Break mechanic. Is it a special similar to Lightweight or Monado Arts, or is it a passive thing like Mac's KO meter? Does it buff all his moves or just specials? What exactly are its effects?

Palutena's ftilt seems like it was meant to be a meaty wall of don't touch me, but it sort of fails at that purpose. Best use I can think of is to cover ledge options minus roll and maybe drop.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The fact that we don't even know how his moveset works entirely is grounds enough to say that we probably shouldn't even try to tier him let alone analyse him properly in a competitive environment. I look forward to the labbing when he comes out though!

Limit break might be interesting especially. Let's wait and see~

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm most interested in the Limit Break mechanic. Is it a special similar to Lightweight or Monado Arts, or is it a passive thing like Mac's KO meter? Does it buff all his moves or just specials? What exactly are its effects?

Having gone over it a few times, it looks like Cloud has to charge a bit (in one go or over time, dunno) to get stronger specials and maybe extra damage like WFT?

If he has to rely on this then he's mid tier at best, IMO. He's going to have to play super defensive with it so he's not free offstage since his default recovery looks terrible, but then his frame data is going to be like Ike's at best so I don't know how effective he'll be at keeping most people out.

 

[C0rvus]

If limit break goes away when he dies, it might be bad.

It really all depends on if his base specials are good or if they need limit to make an impact. That is the difference between a gimmick that makes him better and a gimmick that makes him passable. Also frame data and stuff, but his mobility seemed passable.

 

[Nobie]

The most interesting gameplay aspect of Cloud's trailer to me is the fact that the second part of his Up B is optional.

So basically he's like Kirby, except he can choose to make his Upper Cutter into a Final Cutter.

Mixups???

 

[TTTTTsd]

He also has an entire materia system and stuff. Like, we know nothing about this character so rather than eat crow later I'm just gonna withhold any realistic judgement.

I'm excited though, his moveset looks interesting.

 

[LancerStaff]

If limit break goes away when he dies, it might be bad.

It really all depends on if his base specials are good or if they need limit to make an impact. That is the difference between a gimmick that makes him better and a gimmick that makes him passable. Also frame data and stuff, but his mobility seemed passable.

Actually, you mind explaining how Limit Break works in FF7? Assuming you're a fan... Might shed some light on how it functions in Smash, and my Cloud experience is limited to Kingdom Hearts.

 

[FullMoon]

The most interesting gameplay aspect of Cloud's trailer to me is the fact that the second part of his Up B is optional.

So basically he's like Kirby, except he can choose to make his Upper Cutter into a Final Cutter.

Mixups???

Or he just has his own version of Air Slash.

 

[C0rvus]

Actually, you mind explaining how Limit Break works in FF7? Assuming you're a fan... Might shed some light on how it functions in Smash, and my Cloud experience is limited to Kingdom Hearts.

Limits are simple. The gauge goes up as you receive damage, so I'm confused as to why you would need to charge it. If it goes up both ways in Smash... Damn.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've heard it said that Palutean's Ftilt is best used as her fourth taunt.

But really, I don't know what its purpose is. The disjoint can make for some decent edgeguards against recoveries with hitboxes I guess? Even then, Fsmash is probably better for that. Her Dtilt is bad as well, but at least it's not quite as slow. There really aren't many situations where I'd say Ftilt is the best or even a good option.

Well, it does beat spotdodge, and beating defenses is always a non-trivial property of attacks. Jab is a way better tool of that trait, but f-tilt does have pretty impressive disjointed range.

It's not good, but it's not worthless. Imo Palutena d-tilt is a far more useless move, and u-tilt isn't great either.

 

[Rikkhan]

Ok so from the trailer, cloud move set could look like this:

0:58 (aerial attack) -> fair (spikes on sweetspot)
0:58 (ground attack) -> Utilt
0:59 -> Bair,
1:00 -> Jab 1,2,3, last hit dash a little
1:02 -> Ftilt
1:03 -> Dtilt (spikes)
1:04 -> Uair
1:07 -> Dair
1:09 -> Usmash
1:10 -> Dsmash
1:18 -> Fsmash (super armor?)
1:23 -> fair sourspot
1:24 -> Dash attack
1:25 -> back throw
1:28 -> neutral B - Air (proyectile)
1:29 -> neutral B - Ground (proyectile)
1:30 -> side B
1:34 -> Up B half
1:35 -> Up B full
1:44 -> Down B(?), charge move, fully charged next move will be a limit version, works on B moves and maybe smash attacks.
1:47 -> Side B (limit)
1:49 -> neutral B(limit)
1:50 -> Up B (limit)
1:52 -> Usmash (limit) (?)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRzkVP0ceBY

Cloud looks interesting but he looks somewhat laggy so I'm not sure if he will be top tier material.

 

[Nobie]

Or he just has his own version of Air Slash.

Except Air Slash makes you go a bit higher, whereas Cloud's move goes up and then may or may not come down.

If you're wondering whether that might be two different b moves, I'm pretty sure it isn't, mainly because Cloud shouts, "ZAN!" (SLASH) in both cases.

 

[LancerStaff]

Limits are simple. The gauge goes up as you receive damage, so I'm confused as to why you would need to charge it. If it goes up both ways in Smash... Damn.

That does sound interesting. Sounds like he won't be hosed against particular playstyles if he really can get charge from both methods.

If not... Yeeeeah.

 

[Zannabluke]

can't wait all the new cloud mains to catch these tsrk
december can't come soon enough~

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm curious

why are opinions on so varied? some think she's top 3, others think she's barely top 10. what gives?

 

[Ffamran]

]
And i know we cant infer too much from the trailer, but his non-limit gauge recovery looked a lot like Ike's. and if he doesnt have a quickdraw type move things might be pretty rough for him.

His Up Special looks more like more like a "vertical" Blazer. I'm fairly sure you can go lower with Ike's Aether and Marth's Dolphin Slash. Hmm... might be the same distance as either Mario's Super Jump Punch or Shulk's Air Slash while the Limit version might be the same as Falco's Fire Bird. So... normal would be about 1/3 to 2/5's of Final Destination while EX version would be about half. Still pretty bad even compared to Ike's...

Also, everyone, we have a thread for Cloud's moveset if you're only looking to discuss about that: smashboards.com/threads/cloud-moveset-analysis.423261/.

Ok so from the trailer, cloud move set could look like this:

0:58 (aerial attack) -> fair (spikes on sweetspot)
0:58 (ground attack) -> Utilt
0:59 -> Bair,
1:00 -> Jab 1,2,3, last hit dash a little
1:02 -> Ftilt
1:03 -> Dtilt (spikes)
1:04 -> Uair
1:07 -> Dair
1:09 -> Usmash
1:10 -> Dsmash
1:18 -> Fsmash (super armor?)
1:23 -> fair sourspot
1:24 -> Dash attack
1:25 -> back throw
1:28 -> neutral B - Air (proyectile)
1:29 -> neutral B - Ground (proyectile)
1:30 -> side B
1:34 -> Up B half
1:35 -> Up B full
1:44 -> Down B(?), charge move, fully charged next move will be a limit version, works on B moves and maybe smash attacks.
1:47 -> Side B (limit)
1:49 -> neutral B(limit)
1:50 -> Up B (limit)
1:52 -> Usmash (limit) (?)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRzkVP0ceBY

Cloud looks interesting but he looks somewhat laggy so I'm not sure if he will be top tier material.

I think 1:23 is his Nair; it covers much more than his Fair and has a different animation.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

i'm curious

why are opinions on so varied? some think she's top 3, others think she's barely top 10. what gives?

I think she may have relatively few even-ish matchups, so either your character struggles to get past the Great Wall of Luma or they can work around it with some consistency, without much middle ground. Basically main bias, sort of.

 

[C0rvus]

i'm curious

why are opinions on so varied? some think she's top 3, others think she's barely top 10. what gives?

Likely just lack of understanding of the character. She's not exactly popular, so plenty of players still don't have much (meaningful) experience against her.

Pile on top of that the fact that as a character, she sounds not as good as she is. Luma is just so overtuned that it makes her more dominant than many think. There's also varied opinions on other top or high tiers, as well as varied opinions on what the meaningful differences between tiers are, what they should be drawn from, etc. So don't expect much consistency other than people thinking Sheik is the best character and ZSS is right after her.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

i'm curious

why are opinions on so varied? some think she's top 3, others think she's barely top 10. what gives?

She has some pretty bad matchups with some top tiers, like Sheik, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, and Meta Knight.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Well, it does beat spotdodge, and beating defenses is always a non-trivial property of attacks. Jab is a way better tool of that trait, but f-tilt does have pretty impressive disjointed range.

It's not good, but it's not worthless. Imo Palutena d-tilt is a far more useless move, and u-tilt isn't great either.

???????????

Palutena's F-tilt is nowhere near as useful as her D-tilt and especially not her U-tilt. I'll just quote what I said before in another thread:

D-tilt can lead to Jab Locks with Auto Reticle, especially on stages with platforms. It sets up for a D-air if you hit someone with it while they're offstage or hanging on the ledge (which makes it decent for forcing an option). It also outright kills Mario at the tip of the ledge somewhere around 115% with some Rage on SV. Not too scary killpower-wise but it's something, I suppose.

As for U-tilt, it's actually really useful in quite a few situations after all the buffs to it. It's her fastest tilt by far and it becomes pretty strong with Rage. For reference, it starts killing mid-weights at 120% with 70% Rage on FD (it's basically a slightly weaker Mewtwo U-throw). You can combo into it from Jab around 100% without Rage on all but a few characters. Works earlier with Rage, of course. That's a pretty potent kill-confirm for us. The move eats rolls, spotdodges, and ledge getup options because of how long it lasts. It's transcendent and it lowers her hurtbox so it beats things it wouldn't otherwise.

(NOTE: U-tilt has had it's range and linking-consistency buffed dramatically since the post I linked was made so the combo works from further away than "point-blank" now)

Seriously, everything her F-tilt does her other tilts do better on top of doing more in general. Really, the only things it has going for it is how big it is and how much (shield)damage it does and that's not enough to put it above her other moves.

 

[Y2Kay]

It makes since he was announced when u consider square enix helped them make the game. Cloud's design is interesting. he's got these weir blends of things from ike, robin, and shulk.

I think the Cloud Strife will be a pretty solid character when he comes out

Wow

The fact i get to say that sentence is what makes Super Smash bros. such an awesome game. This is history right here. This has got to be one of the most historic times in gaming history. The kicker is, I was saying that when pac was released, and then when ryu was released. When you think this game has reached it's maximum amount of crazy, it blows your mind even further. Enjoy this ride boys, 10--no 20 years-- from now, we'll get to say I was living that. I was their when Pacman was announced. I was their when Ryu was announced. I was there when Cloud was announced. I was there when Wolf was announced .

Maybe I'm getting to deep for a videogame, but this is just really incredible

Alllll abooooooard the hype train! chugga chugga chugga chugga choo choo!

I'll keep this avi for a while

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Anyone else notice that they played Brawl music for the announcement of the December presentation? Possibly hinting at Wolf/ Snake/ Icies...

 

[G. Stache]

In regards to Cloud: I don't see why people are saying: 'can't be higher than mid tier' or 'He's like Ike, but... (Insert reason here (saw Twitch do this more, but it should still be noted))'. And I'm sitting here thinking...what? This character trailer JUST came out, the character isn't even out yet. Unless you all are psychics, just give it some time. We're trying to give a rundown of a character that isn't even out. We're dissecting something that's not there. Overall, I'm optimistic for cloud. His Limit Break seems cool (though I've never played FF before, so the mechanic may just be new to me). He actually has a projectile (something other swordies like Marth, MK and Ike would probably enjoy a lot), and the range on his sword is always a plus. Of course, this is obviously speculation as well, but at least I'm not trying to decide whether a character is good or not. I'm just noting what I saw. One more thing: like I said, the characters not out yet. To those who thought that Cloud's Frame data was rather subpar in the trailer. You do realize Nintendo could always change it at this point in time...right? It's not impossible. I'm sure they've done it before when other characters were still in development. Overall, it's fair to talk about Cloud. Share your thoughts and speculation, I'm all for it (not sure if it's the healthiest topic for this thread, but whatever. I'm not in charge). But there's a time and a place for deciding how viable a character is...and since when is the short trailer for the character that point in time?