Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Pyr]

im not exactly sure what you mean. the hitbox is fantastic for approaching, and dangerous to challenge because it comes out so fast and generally trading with it is bad, and if u dont trade with it youre going take a pretty nasty combo. bair cant say that, also that moves hitbox can probably just be crouched, uair literally hits right on the ground.

The gist is this: Does the +1 come from hitting the ground as the strong hitbox comes out?

If so: You have to factor in the jump and fall into your opponent, which makes the approach telegraphed if you want it to be safe on block.

If not: It's use as an approach would be viable.

That's my question. It changes the entire dynamic of the move if you have to hit that close to the ground for it to be safe.

 

[Luco]

Hmmm, here are a few things I've been thinking about Cloud.

Basically, Cloud to me has some issues challenging shields - of course positional grabs are great (I fail to understand how people consistently under-rate positional grabs in this game, getting someone in the air or offstage where they have less options available to them in order not to get punished is one of the best things you can do *coughcoughthisiswhymacisn'tinhightiercoughcough*) BUUUUUT I also feel as though Cloud simply wasn't built to be played that way, or at least not without limit break.

Err, let me explain.

Cloud has a bit of a Ryu-esque attribute of not being able to decelerate and change direction so quickly. Trying to aggro, he commits, unless he's sitting in mid-range, which is sorta decent for him to do (but so many characters in this game do mid-range well with "better" rewards off a grab).

I think the biggest thing about Cloud is he has a Wario-esque ability of being able to camp without even needing to throw a projectile. The opponent is threatened just by Cloud being at long range because, and unlike Wario, once Limit is up Cloud gets what I'd argue is actually a significant stat boost, stuff that allows him to cross up effortlessly, and the thing is, just in case you really still don't feel threatened, Cloud has a Hadouken of his own to make you begrudgingly go to him instead, where his punish is significant. I feel like the gameplan of Cloud shouldn't actually be being in Limit break all the time - instead I think Cloud should force the opponent to come to him by charging limit until JUST before hitting break. On characters with no projectile or who are slow, Cloud can then threaten them with neutral B. On other characters, he also still has side B.

I think the idea with Cloud is to get LB once he gets hit. I actually think Cloud pretty much shouldn't be using limit break for anything else except recovery OR a punish using downB: Either he's making sure his offstage is decent or he's killing his opponent. In the meantime, should Cloud have been hit into Limit Break mode and neither of these options are available, he should enjoy the stat boost, where his approach suddenly gets significantly boosted.

I think this strategy won't exactly work on characters that just don't give a stuff about Cloud's stat boosts or his "camping" (ie we all knew Cloud wasn't going to be the Sheik counter we hoped he might be) but I think it has a lot of validity against a lot of the cast. It's not like side B and neutral B are the be all and end all of Cloud's gameplan, I think sacrificing using them half the time isn't that big a deal in exchange for safety and good stats while LB is primed (which possibly makes it even more of a threat than Waft!)

I don't know if I have much of this right. I probably don't, but I DO think people need to conserve using LB stuff in exchange for safety and people need to take its stat boost more seriously.

Well yeah.


EDIT: Also, since we're talking about falling Uairs, how many people here have faced a competent in tournament? That kid's a genius, the way he uses his head!

 

[TDK]

Hmmm, here are a few things I've been thinking about Cloud.

Basically, Cloud to me has some issues challenging shields - of course positional grabs are great (I fail to understand how people consistently under-rate positional grabs in this game, getting someone in the air or offstage where they have less options available to them in order not to get punished is one of the best things you can do *coughcoughthisiswhymacisn'tinhightiercoughcough*) BUUUUUT I also feel as though Cloud simply wasn't built to be played that way, or at least not without limit break.

Err, let me explain.

Cloud has a bit of a Ryu-esque attribute of not being able to decelerate and change direction so quickly. Trying to aggro, he commits, unless he's sitting in mid-range, which is sorta decent for him to do (but so many characters in this game do mid-range well with "better" rewards off a grab).

I think the biggest thing about Cloud is he has a Wario-esque ability of being able to camp without even needing to throw a projectile. The opponent is threatened just by Cloud being at long range because, and unlike Wario, once Limit is up Cloud gets what I'd argue is actually a significant stat boost, stuff that allows him to cross up effortlessly, and the thing is, just in case you really still don't feel threatened, Cloud has a Hadouken of his own to make you begrudgingly go to him instead, where his punish is significant. I feel like the gameplan of Cloud shouldn't actually be being in Limit break all the time - instead I think Cloud should force the opponent to come to him by charging limit until JUST before hitting break. On characters with no projectile or who are slow, Cloud can then threaten them with neutral B. On other characters, he also still has side B.

I think the idea with Cloud is to get LB once he gets hit. I actually think Cloud pretty much shouldn't be using limit break for anything else except recovery OR a punish using downB: Either he's making sure his offstage is decent or he's killing his opponent. In the meantime, should Cloud have been hit into Limit Break mode and neither of these options are available, he should enjoy the stat boost, where his approach suddenly gets significantly boosted.

I think this strategy won't exactly work on characters that just don't give a stuff about Cloud's stat boosts or his "camping" (ie we all knew Cloud wasn't going to be the Sheik counter we hoped he might be) but I think it has a lot of validity against a lot of the cast. It's not like side B and neutral B are the be all and end all of Cloud's gameplan, I think sacrificing using them half the time isn't that big a deal in exchange for safety and good stats while LB is primed (which possibly makes it even more of a threat than Waft!)

I don't know if I have much of this right. I probably don't, but I DO think people need to conserve using LB stuff in exchange for safety and people need to take its stat boost more seriously.

Well yeah.


EDIT: Also, since we're talking about falling Uairs, how many people here have faced a competent in tournament? That kid's a genius, the way he uses his head!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI-BtUmiKcs

 

[Ffamran]

Disregard what I said earlier, clouds uair hits infront and below him. I thought it was just above him like marth/lucina/roy.

Cloud's Uair is probably one of the more unique Uairs in the game alongside Ike, Mega Man, and Mr. Game & Watch's. Most Uairs arc or only hit a spot at certain frames like like Bowser, Captain Falcon, Diddy, and Marth's Uair or hit narrowly or in specific spots like Fox, Lucario, Yoshi, and Zelda's. Cloud's is a slab of metal held out horizontally. Cloud's Uair is like a Bowser or DK Uair where it's a hitbox close to his body that's difficult to challenge - Cloud's being a close disjoint to Bowser and DK's invincible Uairs. This also extends Climhazzard and to his dash attack, but for dash attack, it's a slab of metal held out vertically. Cloud's more like a "butcher" compared to the other swordsmen who use swords rather than cleavers and Shulk who's more like a spear user since some of his moves extend his Monado rather than him slashing or stabbing like the others or cleaving and forcing like Cloud.

Edit: I just realized that the developers could have gone with an interesting design for Shulk. They did do it, but not in way I'm thinking. For maybe all of Shulk's attacks, they should all be multi-hits, but in this case, instead of his Nair being frame 13, it should be frame 10 and only if he hits something from frames 10 to 13, does the Monado extend its laser blade letting it hit like say, frames 10 and 13. If not, so he hits on frame 14 or later, he hits with a sour-spot sort of like Roy's sour-spots and shorter range. This would be stupid to program, but it would fix the whole Shulk has range, but "needs" to be slow-hitting so he won't dominate horrifically to where it's Shulk has range, but only if he hits things, otherwise, he has okay range with more average hit speed instead of good range, but high startup to balance his range out. At the same time, this is probably not lore-friendly at all... A character who could make use of this better and be lore-friendly would be Squall Leonhart because of how FFVIII's Gunblades work.

 

[Vipermoon]

So let me get this straight. The total animation of Lucas's standing grab lasts 45 frames, but its IASA/FAF is on frame 38, correct? I want to make sure I understand this.

The "IASA 45" in the game data is what they set the IASA frame at for the animation at 1.0 speed. A frame speed modifier speeds up part of the animation and it becomes the 38 total frames or whatever it is. We don't currently have a way to find animation lengths but that doesn't matter anyway because knowing when the animation can be interrupted is all you need.

Disregard what I said earlier, clouds uair hits infront and below him. I thought it was just above him like marth/lucina/roy.

Frame 5 would like to have a word with you

Side note: look at that "tipper" Uair huh? It's half of the freakin blade... and people wonder why the tipper Uair was so easy in Melee and Brawl

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

This is sort of a follow-up to the "gameplay identities" post from earlier today, but my goodness people seem to hate the idea that their characters have weaknesses.

Every time I read the salt, even if some of it consists of legitimate gripes, people seem to want their characters to be such that they have no real downsides, only "good things" and "better things."

Kirby gets higher kill power, including a fancy upgraded throw, but out come the standard complaints that Kirby's bad approach needs to be fixed. Shulk gets a bunch of landing lag buffs and even a few damage buffs to further reward spacing, but people still want to give Shulk faster attacks.

Maybe Kirby's character is supposed to be short-ranged and bad at approaching. Maybe Shulk isn't supposed to have a jab of the gods. Not saying they wouldn't get further buffs, or that buffs to their core weaknesses are totally out of the picture, but it's like everyone wants their characters to slowly move towards either a Sheik-esque or ZSS-style ideal.

I understand everyone wants their characters to be better and more viable, but it always seems as if players hate the idea that their characters have clear, exploitable weaknesses that they need to play around, when that is supposed to be part of the package of having different playstyles.

This is, in my opinion, why people get mad over Sheik (and ZSS to a lesser extent), even though she's not as overpowering as top tiers in past games. Emblem Lord posted a few pages back saying that Ryu would never be as good as Sheik and ZSS because of how easily they get out of disadvantage, and this safety is what frustrates players about Sheik in particular.

The developers in Smash are often very cognizant of balancing the strengths of a character or move with appropriate weaknesses. Indeed, if you look at characters like Zelda or at a lot of custom moves, they often err on the side of caution, since it's better to have a character be too weak than too strong. But then you take a look at Sheik and get the impression that the developers decided that this character shouldn't have to take risks, or have an exploitable weakness. Random invincibility frames on down and up B moves, great aerials, great speed, great mobility, possibly the best projectile in the game, and meanwhile Zelda's over in the corner going into free fall because of an aerial Din's Fire. We know that developers understand the importance of weaknesses in a character's gameplan, and yet Sheik doesn't seem to have any.

It's easy to hate a character who's good at everything. Sheik's a Mary Sue, and people look at her and think "Why does my character need to have weaknesses?"

Melee Fox is waaaay better relative to the bottom tiers in his game, but at least if you get a hold of him you can combo him to hell and back. Fighting Sheik is exhausting, because you have to keep tracking her down and winning the neutral again and again and again, and there's really no angle in particular to attack from.

Sheik doesn't really have any broken moves, but when you look at the whole picture,she's clearly overtuned. There are a number of directions you could take the character to add a nerf. Incidentally, this is why we can't just buff everyone to Sheik levels. Disadvantage state should be meaningful, and we're not trying to make Brawl Minus.

 

[PK Gaming]

Cloud's uair autocancels as well, and it lingers for-****ing-ever...I'm in agreement with whoever said that move shouldn't have made it out of testing, lol

Nah, the more jank the better. He's going to need all he can get if he wants to compete with the top tiers in this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

With Sheik, I do think she does have weaknesses, but he levels of which she can make up or cover for them is what makes her so good.

She has trouble finishing people off, if she can't get a 50/50 or set-up into it some characters can live til 160 easily.
She is very light so she will die earlier than most characters.
She isn't great at punishing rolls.
Some of her damage on indivual hits don't do that much damage.

Can she make up for this? Absolutely, she can combo long chains together and keep pressure up to rack up damage fast.
She can die fast but she can dish out loads of damage still.
She can combo into some of her kill moves which is still respectable in those situations.

At least with her, she has more downsides and more competition that can fight with her, better balanced cast.

She is the most balanced best character I can think of relating to Melee, PM versions of the past, maybe current, and Brawl. Can't speak for 64 since I'm not as sure there even if I think Pikachu is ridiculous there.

But for smash 4, I do think she is a lot better balanced for facing against than other past characters. Does she need a nerf? probably but we'll see if she even gets one. I wouldn't say it would be required in a final patch but still it would help.

 

[Ffamran]

Heh... I just realized the if Cloud had his Dissidia version of Cross Slash, he could basically do something like in Melee and Brawl where Marth could stall with Dancing Blade, but for Cloud, the last hit would move him forward like his jab 3 moving him forward which would mean Cloud would have two ways to cross-up shields... Weird how he doesn't... Actually... Out of the swordsmen, the more "traditional" swordsmen, so not the Links, Meta Knight, or the Pits, none of them have horizontal recoveries that ledge snap except for Ike who has quick draw which is basically a chargeable Fox Illusion. Shield Breaker can shoot Lucina and Marth forward, but I don't know if they can ledge snap with it, Roy can angle Blazer, but not almost horizontal, and Shulk just plummets to his death with Back Slash. Cloud's in the same boat, except he only has a purely vertical recovery like Ike's Aether, a stall from Blade Beam. He has nothing else; no angling and no burst and/or horizontal movement like Shield Breaker. Guess it's just a swordsmen thing to not have horizontal recovery moves unless you're special like Ike.

 

[Mario766]

We get the special thing because Aether doesn't auto snap, ever.

 

[TriTails]

She has trouble finishing people off, if she can't get a 50/50 or set-up into it some characters can live til 160 easily.
She is very light so she will die earlier than most characters.
She isn't great at punishing rolls.
Some of her damage on indivual hits don't do that much damage.

??????????

IDK if DI plays a part in, but F-throw + U-air is a true combo on kill percentages and last from 0% to forever. Even if you DI I imagine Sheik can just buffer dash in and jump. It takes forever to kill? My Luigi was killed off at ~138%-ish percents on 3DS blastzone. Luigi has booty vertical endurance for his weight but he's still fairly heavy.

Also, she is better at killing than Mario, if that is worth anything.

Sheik is the heaviest of all lightweights, hanging on 85 value, same with Zelda. If you count in her fair vertical endurance due to falling speed and that she can recover from bascially anywhere then she gets even tougher. Definitely nowhere near 'very light'.

Also, can't she just... SHFF F-air or dashgrab to punish rolls? She has the mobility to do so.

Her individual hits' damage output will only become apparent when she has to trade, which she does very poorly. But considering F-air is 50% of her gameplan, IDK how anyone without a sword would trade with her. Because even if you have a sword, her F-air is frame 5 and outranges Marth's. That's some hugea** and fast disjoint right there.

I don't think these are her weaknesses that she has to 'make up for'. They're not much of weaknesses to begin with.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Being light is not a meaningful weakness.

Brawl MK was light as a feather, and that didn't stop him from being a terrible piece of overpowered design.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't agree. Corrin is small and seems fairly nimble. And if you saw his Uair, he might technically be based on Marth - which means he might get Marth's grab (which is a good thing). He has Melee Roy/Smash 4 Ike's Dtilt, and what looks like a fast Ftilt, Utilt (which seems to be a combo starter), jab, and dash attack. I don't remember if we saw his Usmash or Dsmash but we know the Fsmash range. If it lags less than Shulk's, that Fsmash will be good. He has a stall and fall Dair but his Nair is really fast full body coverage like Cloud's but with really low landing lag. I remember seeing Bair having decent end lag (I bet it's the same lag as Marth's). Fair seems to mimic Marth/Roy; we saw Uair. His specials look useful and he definitely has a better recovery than Cloud.

I think Corrin has a chance at being good or decent. We'll see though, because we know nothing about his grab game and whatever kill setups he can create.

If you've noticed, the characters with powerful ranged attacks that take a ton of time to charge are overwhelmingly slow characters, and characters with tethers are also typically slow. So basically characters with safe (in FFAs anyway) ways to kill or deal a lot of damage at a distance lose mobility so they can't play keep away all day. Most characters like this also have lacking CQC options for similar reasons. So what if he shares some of Marth's animations? They're not just going to break this balance without another severe penalty such as weight or not being able to kill without those two moves. With that Fsmash it's either going to be pathetically weak or have terrible frame data because, again, it's for playing keep away in FFAs. Shulk's isn't terribly strong or fast by any means for comparison, although obviously arts are a factor. Mii Gunner's Fsmash seems like a more appropriate comparison and that's pretty weak and still not fast from what I recall.

I really don't get why you think his specials, Dragon's Breath especially, will be anything but horrid. His counter for example has pretty significant windup time for the strike, presumably so a group of players get a chance to clear the area. Dragon's Beath looks like you either have to stand there like an idiot to get hit by the projectile or literally walk into the bite for it to be effective. Dragon's Lance looks really laggy if you miss (note the unique "extra hard landing" animation for the neutral release) and I'm doubtful it'll be a real command grab. Dragon Ascent (well I'm probably thinking of something else but w/e) looks nice, but keep in mind it's almost strictly vertical and with that height it'd be cumbersome. (Play a few matches with Striking Flight against somebody with good edgeguarding and you'll see what I mean, there's some uncanny similarities between the two moves too.) If there's ledge grab restrictions like what Pit has then he's going have a heck of a time working around them since he lacks horizontal angles and multiple jumps.

Thing is that swordsmen aren't really built for good grab games or easy and early kill setups/confirms, and nether are keep away characters. Couple exceptions, but like I said these exceptions have further drawbacks. Cloud's a similar hybrid, leaning to more swordsman then keep away, and manages to have neither. Chances look slim.

Let's not start ****s by discussing unreleased characters. Trailers mean nothing to actually playing a character.

Come on man, don't ruin my speculation... That and it's a healthy dose of pessimism since I haven't seen anybody come out and say he looks like anything but insanely OP, and I doubt you want a repeat of the Roy situation.

 

[TriTails]

Come on man, don't ruin my speculation... That and it's a healthy dose of pessimism since I haven't seen anybody come out and say he looks like anything but insanely OP, and I doubt you want a repeat of the Roy situation.

Thing I have with discussing unreleased characters is because we are judging a recently adversited book before it's even out in the public. We can't judge a character without looking at their actual frame data, damage, grab rewards, mobility, etc, especially when that character hasn't been in previous smash games yet.

For me at least, calling an unreleased character as 'low tier' before we can even get our hands on playable him is simply way too fast to judge a character. Take note he will come out in two months. That's quite a long time before anyone can even buy him. Who knows what may change about Corrin in a later date? At this point, spetaculating about such stuffs adds nothing to productivity of this thread.

 

[bc1910]

It's hard to compare them directly but Sheik's definitely more balanced than 64 Pika IMO. 64 Pika can recover in a game where no-one recovers; Sheik has overtuned tools but she doesn't do anything that at least a few other characters can't, she's more like a Greatest Hits collection. 64 Pika's Uair is also pure insanity and better than anything Sheik has.

Sheik isn't great at punishing rolls because she doesn't actually get much damage off grabs once Fthrow into BF or long Fair/Nair chains stop working at around 40%. Her Fthrow and Dthrow animations are both long, easy to DI, and are DI'd optimally in the same direction (away from Sheik). She doesn't have a good running Usmash to punish rolls and none of her rising aerials combo into anything past like 60%.

Sheik does have some minor weaknesses, as were listed. Her options out of a dash aren't great after mid percents, particularly her kill options. Her only truly threatening one is a Dthrow 50/50 which only starts to work after Uair starts killing at around 125% - you can jump away safely before that, knowing you won't die. I see people airdodge Dthrow at like 90 and die to Vanish and I'm just like, why.

Sheik IS light, not very light, and I've gone over why weight isn't a meaningful weakness, though it's there. Her physics do make her easy to combo on a superficial level, but as I've said before this isn't Melee. Being "easy to combo" doesn't actually matter in this game because hitstun and gravity are so much lower. All this means for Sheik is that she's slightly more vulnerable to certain kill confirms and throw combos.

Her smash attacks suck, she's in the running for worst smashes in the game with tipper Usmash on Battlefield being just about the only good smash she has.

Finally, if for whatever reason Sheik can't get those long combos, she has one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. On occasion, it's hard to make a comeback with her. She also benefits from rage the least out of the entire cast.

Sheik does have some intended weaknesses that shine through, mostly the lack of kill power. But as others have said, she covers those weaknesses so well that they end up not being meaningful.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's hard to compare them directly but Sheik's definitely more balanced than 64 Pika IMO. 64 Pika can recover in a game where no-one recovers; Sheik has overtuned tools but she doesn't do anything that at least a few other characters can't, she's more like a Greatest Hits collection. 64 Pika's Uair is also pure insanity and better than anything Sheik has.

Sheik isn't great at punishing rolls because she doesn't actually get much damage off grabs once Fthrow into BF or long Fair/Nair chains stop working at around 40%. Her Fthrow and Dthrow animations are both long, easy to DI, and are DI'd optimally in the same direction (away from Sheik). She doesn't have a good running Usmash to punish rolls and none of her rising aerials combo into anything past like 60%.

Sheik does have some minor weaknesses, as were listed. Her options out of a dash aren't great after mid percents, particularly her kill options. Her only truly threatening one is a Dthrow 50/50 which only starts to work after Uair starts killing at around 125% - you can jump away safely before that, knowing you won't die. I see people airdodge Dthrow at like 90 and die to Vanish and I'm just like, why.

Sheik IS light, not very light, and I've gone over why weight isn't a meaningful weakness, though it's there. Her physics do make her easy to combo on a superficial level, but as I've said before this isn't Melee. Being "easy to combo" doesn't actually matter in this game because hitstun and gravity are so much lower. All this means for Sheik is that she's slightly more vulnerable to certain kill confirms and throw combos.

Her smash attacks suck, she's in the running for worst smashes in the game with tipper Usmash on Battlefield being just about the only good smash she has.

Finally, if for whatever reason Sheik can't get those long combos, she has one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. On occasion, it's hard to make a comeback with her. She also benefits from rage the least out of the entire cast.

Sheik does have some intended weaknesses that shine through, mostly the lack of kill power. But as others have said, she covers those weaknesses so well that they end up not being meaningful.

Yeah this more or less nailed my thoughts on it I says before.

She has intended weaknesses but is overturned which is why she is stronger than normal.

 

[thehard]

A Cloud just won a tournament on the 2GG stream. 55 entrants

WF: http://youtu.be/YOpkMggwrUA

 

[Vipermoon]

If you've noticed, the characters with powerful ranged attacks that take a ton of time to charge are overwhelmingly slow characters, and characters with tethers are also typically slow. So basically characters with safe (in FFAs anyway) ways to kill or deal a lot of damage at a distance lose mobility so they can't play keep away all day. Most characters like this also have lacking CQC options for similar reasons. So what if he shares some of Marth's animations? They're not just going to break this balance without another severe penalty such as weight or not being able to kill without those two moves. With that Fsmash it's either going to be pathetically weak or have terrible frame data because, again, it's for playing keep away in FFAs. Shulk's isn't terribly strong or fast by any means for comparison, although obviously arts are a factor. Mii Gunner's Fsmash seems like a more appropriate comparison and that's pretty weak and still not fast from what I recall.

I really don't get why you think his specials, Dragon's Breath especially, will be anything but horrid. His counter for example has pretty significant windup time for the strike, presumably so a group of players get a chance to clear the area. Dragon's Beath looks like you either have to stand there like an idiot to get hit by the projectile or literally walk into the bite for it to be effective. Dragon's Lance looks really laggy if you miss (note the unique "extra hard landing" animation for the neutral release) and I'm doubtful it'll be a real command grab. Dragon Ascent (well I'm probably thinking of something else but w/e) looks nice, but keep in mind it's almost strictly vertical and with that height it'd be cumbersome. (Play a few matches with Striking Flight against somebody with good edgeguarding and you'll see what I mean, there's some uncanny similarities between the two moves too.) If there's ledge grab restrictions like what Pit has then he's going have a heck of a time working around them since he lacks horizontal angles and multiple jumps.

Thing is that swordsmen aren't really built for good grab games or easy and early kill setups/confirms, and nether are keep away characters. Couple exceptions, but like I said these exceptions have further drawbacks. Cloud's a similar hybrid, leaning to more swordsman then keep away, and manages to have neither. Chances look slim.



Come on man, don't ruin my speculation... That and it's a healthy dose of pessimism since I haven't seen anybody come out and say he looks like anything but insanely OP, and I doubt you want a repeat of the Roy situation.

You make some good points but we can only assume so much. Dragon Lance's neutral release actually looked good because I saw it put Mario on his back for some get-up reads. I also hope it's a semi-shield breaker because a stab that brutal almost is required to be.

 

[ぱみゅ]

A Cloud just won a tournament on the 2GG stream. 55 entrants

WF: http://youtu.be/YOpkMggwrUA

Dat SD rule tho

 

[Locke 06]

I also just took a local (mid level-bad players) 35 man bracket. Yes, I am a better player than them. But day 1 Cloud. Vods will be up in a week or so.

Why are you approaching with Cloud?
No, not because you have a projectile, because you have limit. Limit charging is literally a 6f commitment with no endlag. AND YOU HAVE A SWORD. You space, you stay safe, and you charge limit.

Why do you have trouble with shields?
Cross Slash 1 is -4 on shield when going to cross Slash 2. And the reward is great if they get hit by it. The mixup game is great with this move. As of now, I really don't think you want this to hit your shield.

Also, limit break side-b (-9 on shield drop with good range) and neutral B (-1 on shield drop???) And kinda up-b are safe on block.

Throw it out, if you hit shield? OH WELL./Climhazzard is f7 OoS... This is a SOLID OPTION. And must be respected with Limit.

His mobility is fantastic. His recovery isn't that bad, but will keep him in check and can lead to early gimps if double jumps are eaten and limit isn't available.

I didn't use dsmash very much at all, lots of cross Slash punishes and ftilts... Which lead into limit charging time.

Oh, and this character is a juggle machine. Especially with limit, you CANNOT afford to airdodge vs this man. Dying at double jump height at 30% to finishing touch is heart breaking... But 90% of the cast can't challenge his up air.

Edge guarding? He's actually good at that. Blade beam hits ledge vulnerability. Dtilt pops up for a FAir spike 50-50 at some %'s and hits vulnerable people on the ledge. With limit, run off DAir (active forever) and NAir are extremely good.

Ledge options? Usmash. Finishing touch. Jabs. Run away & charge limit.

This character. He's got some serious tools and rewards you for spacing well (fsmash is so addicting). He hits really hard and has an incredible punish game. He's got a lot of depth in him, and I'm excited to explore him more as a secondary.

Will be going Cloud again at a bigger Seattle local on Friday. Stream will be twitch.tv/SatteliteSmash if anyone is interested.

But yeah, I feel high af off life. Cloud feels incredibly rewarding to play and highly suggest people consider him.

 

[Ghostbone]

So full hop air-dodge > fast fall uair > full hop finishing touch is an amusing set-up that kills Mario at like 44 (kills training mode dummy at 34).

I mean if this character is viable it will because finishing touch is bonkers strong if you can get reliable set-ups (whether air-dodge 50/50s or true combos)

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

It's hard to compare them directly but Sheik's definitely more balanced than 64 Pika IMO. 64 Pika can recover in a game where no-one recovers; Sheik has overtuned tools but she doesn't do anything that at least a few other characters can't, she's more like a Greatest Hits collection. 64 Pika's Uair is also pure insanity and better than anything Sheik has.

Sheik isn't great at punishing rolls because she doesn't actually get much damage off grabs once Fthrow into BF or long Fair/Nair chains stop working at around 40%. Her Fthrow and Dthrow animations are both long, easy to DI, and are DI'd optimally in the same direction (away from Sheik). She doesn't have a good running Usmash to punish rolls and none of her rising aerials combo into anything past like 60%.

Sheik does have some minor weaknesses, as were listed. Her options out of a dash aren't great after mid percents, particularly her kill options. Her only truly threatening one is a Dthrow 50/50 which only starts to work after Uair starts killing at around 125% - you can jump away safely before that, knowing you won't die. I see people airdodge Dthrow at like 90 and die to Vanish and I'm just like, why.

Sheik IS light, not very light, and I've gone over why weight isn't a meaningful weakness, though it's there. Her physics do make her easy to combo on a superficial level, but as I've said before this isn't Melee. Being "easy to combo" doesn't actually matter in this game because hitstun and gravity are so much lower. All this means for Sheik is that she's slightly more vulnerable to certain kill confirms and throw combos.

Her smash attacks suck, she's in the running for worst smashes in the game with tipper Usmash on Battlefield being just about the only good smash she has.

Finally, if for whatever reason Sheik can't get those long combos, she has one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. On occasion, it's hard to make a comeback with her. She also benefits from rage the least out of the entire cast.

Sheik does have some intended weaknesses that shine through, mostly the lack of kill power. But as others have said, she covers those weaknesses so well that they end up not being meaningful.

Sheik as "Greatest Hits" collection is a good metaphor. She's just so solid all around, and while nothing she has is individually outrageous (except those freakin' invisible Needles, which may just be me), the fact that she has so many good moves just makes you with she'd spread the wealth around a bit.

On the subject of her weaknesses, I think that looking at Sheik's weakpoints and understanding how she's still the best in the game is tremendously illuminating as to what 1v1 Smash rewards and what it punishes. To see how Sheik is so good, which may escape a new player's eye, is to know Smash.

-She's light, but good recovery moves are worth more than sheer size, and the giant hurtbox of a Heavy character is often a disadvantage.

-She has bad Smash attacks. However, Smash attacks are typically slow moves, meaning you need either reads or very good setups for them to be any use. Characters have been successful in past games while hardly using their Smash attacks (Melee Falcon comes to mind, Mang0 memefying Hax aside), and while their rewards on hit often draw less experienced players to them, tilts and aerials are often much more important. Sheik is infamous for her FAir, and has good tilts.

-She has trouble killing/has a lack of power. I've written previously on the importance of kill moves and setups, and while Sheik isn't the best at this (ZSS and Ryu obviously outdo her, others are likely in her league), I think that she's definitely above average, especially since she can go deep and gimp opponents, which is rare in Smash 4. As for power, weak moves are easier to build strings out of than moves with high knockback, and as long as you have a kill setup or two, you'd probably prefer a bunch of fast, weak combo moves to build up damage with.

The things Sheik is good at are counter intuitive, to some extent, for casual players, but I see her as a giant collection of what you need to be good in Smash 1v1, while her weaknesses mostly lie in areas that are barely relevant. This is how she can be so good without having any real cheese/nonsense. Her strengths just line up perfectly with competitive play, while other characters often have crucial weaknesses in competitively relevant areas.

Edit: Were the recoveries really that bad in 64? I don't know much about the game as a whole, to be honest.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah, recoveries in 64 were terrible.

With no airdodge, you were naturally extremely vulnerable to edgeguarding. With long hitstun as well, you would often find yourself being knocked very far from the stage. The recoveries themselves tended to be short distance and had bad ledgesnap properties, the ledge sweetspot itself was also very small.

Enter Pikachu whose recovery was not only long range, extended further by an advanced technique, but invincible throughout, including (crucially) the startup frames. You couldn't hit Pika out of Quick Attack until the very end and it let him get out of disadvantage extremely easily for a 64 character; bear in mind this is a game that uses more stocks than Melee because if you get hit once you're usually dead.

The second best recovery in the game was Yoshi's due to his double jump armour. He was able to make it back quite easily as long as he didn't get knocked too far away. Kirby's recovery wasn't total crap, because at least he could mix up his movement with the multi jumps. Same goes for Jigglypuff, though to a lesser extent because her 4th and 5th jumps didn't gain her any height. Everyone else should pretty much be dead against a good player as soon as they're knocked even a hair too far offstage.

The relevance to Sm4sh is that 64 Pika's recovery and disadvantage state wasn't just the best in the game, it was in a completely different league to every other character. With Sheik, yeah Needles are an amazing projectile but they're not that good for traditional spamming because they can't be fired rapidly and a single needle doesn't deal much damage. Her disadvantage is very very good, but every character with fast aerial burst mobility at least has a comparable disadvantage state.

 

[Yikarur]

The Problem with Sheik is the 50:50 that takes stocks at unreasonable low %. Sheik is designed to be safe and fast and rack damage pretty fast but with kill problems. The 50:50 makes totally up for that flaw. If you are past the 50:50 % you can just spam needles because now the knockback is completely annoying and juggles you alone with almost no effort.

If she would just really have a killing problem Sheik would probably still be the best Character or Top2 but the easy 50:50 makes it a joke. Yoshi would love to have such an easy kill set-up.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

So... Kirby got a run speed buff.

Call me a hopeless romantic, but Kirby's viability could have shot through the roof today. He got an U-throw buff and buffs on all his kill moves, and he got better speed to help his neutral and approach options. In theory, this can make camping him out slightly harder, and it's easier to get an u-throw kill.

Thoughts?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

So... Kirby got a run speed buff.

Call me a hopeless romantic, but Kirby's viability could have shot through the roof today. He got an U-throw buff and buffs on all his kill moves, and he got better speed to help his neutral and approach options. In theory, this can make camping him out slightly harder, and it's easier to get an u-throw kill.

Thoughts?

Kirby still has the standard lightweight issues, and the fact that he naturally has no free-use projectiles without using the Copy Ability is just salt in the wound. That's his biggest flaw; he has no ranged game without copying a projectile. He's no in terms of lag, but there's not much benefit to that if he's forced to get close to do damage, which places him square in the enemy's danger zone.

And he'll still have issues approaching heavyweights and power hitters because he's light, and characters like get around this because of blazing speed and rapid attacks. doesn't have that luxury.

Characters like , and make mincemeat out of him.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Despite a couple of issues still retaining(lack of approach and still poor neutral(I assume)
He's definitely been getting some of the most consistent buffs throughout these patches, the new KO throw is a great improvement.
I guess the tiny little speed buff in run speed helps too, so that's nice, along with even stronger smashes and Bair and fair, He's been getting some decent stuff.

This possibly rises him up to at least mid-mid you know? and makes more of his MUs slightly easier, because he can finish stocks better.

I still hate the fact that despite his good damage racking, if you make just a couple mistakes(especially against heavyweights with their dumb dmg output -.-) he can very easily lose his lead with just several hits, so he still needs to be careful.

One of the few moves I think could be improved that would greatly help is Final cutter.
If it had just a little less startup to maybe...18-20 and reduce the endlag(can't remember how much it is) it can definitely be much better tool, it's one of his moves that can be good with just a couple small changes.

His hammer and DA....no don't bother improving those.
Smashes are somewhat decently quick for how strong they are.
Tilts are all perfect.
Ariels are mostly good, to me at least, I just want Nair to have uses offstage(cut its atrocious end lag.) and I guess take like a couple frames off of Fair?

But yea....just a couple more buffs to some of his moves and he'd be perfect.....if only customs were on I think he would be

 

[Y2Kay]

So... Kirby got a run speed buff.

Call me a hopeless romantic, but Kirby's viability could have shot through the roof today. He got an U-throw buff and buffs on all his kill moves, and he got better speed to help his neutral and approach options. In theory, this can make camping him out slightly harder, and it's easier to get an u-throw kill.

Thoughts?

I know you complained about his speed a while back, how fast is he as of nowexactly?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I believe he's a tad bit faster then ROB from what I read, so nearly Marios run speed?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I know you complained about his speed a while back, how fast is he as of nowexactly?

1.568 AKA R.O.B's runspeed. Still not GREAT but it really helps him with approaching and punishing.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

wtf really

that's actually really big, and makes uthrow buff viable

what was the value pre-patch, though? also, where's this coming from?

 

[Spinosaurus]

About time we're actually getting character mobility buffs.

Optimistic about February's patch. This one has been pretty kind to a lot of characters.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

About time we're actually getting character mobility buffs.

Optimistic about February's patch. This one has been pretty kind to a lot of characters.

Yeah, if the buffs keep up the way they have for the last bit now, who knows how we'll be affected.

Maybe Charizard will be thrust into High Mid at the end of this ride.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Wow, Kirby's run speed was actually improved. Despite being a alight buff, this is massive for the character. It's especially amazing when trying to get grabs for F-Throw combos and our now-killing U-Throw.

This also gives Kirby a couple more combos he didn't have access to before, such as a wider % range of F-Air > Grab when accommodating DI.

time to lab yayay

 

[Y2Kay]

After Mewtwo got his mobility buff and landing lag reduced on ALL his aerials, the Mewtwo boards have been labbing like crazy.

This was such a great buff. It really breathed new life into the character and his community. I haven't been this excited to play as Mewtwo since his release.

This is such a great Christmas present, Sakurai!

 

[Crudele]

Day one cloud tourney wins are likely the result of people having day one cloud mu experience.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Huh. You guys aren't gonna belive it because it hardly ever happens but I was wrong: they actually CAN buff mobility attributes.

 

[san.]

The more I use Cloud, the better he seems to be. This is the complete opposite experience I felt from using and observing Roy. I think Cloud is the real deal in terms of his frame data and power, and he has enough tools to mix up his defense when attempting recovery even without limit break (nair, uair, blade beam). Day 1 Cloud winning tournaments is not the least surprising.

 

[Luigi player]

Just throwing this out there:

Lucario got heavier vertically due to increased fallspeed. And Cloud also lives quite long vertically, even though his weight is about average.

Here are my numbers from the character ranking:

Dedede
1. Dedede: 166 %

DK
2. DK: 156 %

Very Heavy
3. Bowser: 149 %
4. Captain Falcon: 148 %
5. Ganondorf: 147 %
5. Ike: 147 %
7. Megaman: 145 %
7. Bowser Jr.: 145 %
9. Lucario: 144 % (since 1.1.3; previously it was 141 %)
-. Cloud: 143 %
10. Link: 142 %
11. Wario: 140 %
11. Shulk: 140 %
11. ROB: 140 %

If you're interested in more characters feel free to check out the full thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-survival-rankings.400617/

Horizontally Cloud doesn't live that long, probably about the same as Robin, which would be place ~26 in the game.

 

[HoSmash4]

??????????

IDK if DI plays a part in, but F-throw + U-air is a true combo on kill percentages and last from 0% to forever. Even if you DI I imagine Sheik can just buffer dash in and jump. It takes forever to kill? My Luigi was killed off at ~138%-ish percents on 3DS blastzone. Luigi has booty vertical endurance for his weight but he's still fairly heavy.

Also, she is better at killing than Mario, if that is worth anything.

Sheik is the heaviest of all lightweights, hanging on 85 value, same with Zelda. If you count in her fair vertical endurance due to falling speed and that she can recover from bascially anywhere then she gets even tougher. Definitely nowhere near 'very light'.

Also, can't she just... SHFF F-air or dashgrab to punish rolls? She has the mobility to do so.

Her individual hits' damage output will only become apparent when she has to trade, which she does very poorly. But considering F-air is 50% of her gameplan, IDK how anyone without a sword would trade with her. Because even if you have a sword, her F-air is frame 5 and outranges Marth's. That's some hugea** and fast disjoint right there.

I don't think these are her weaknesses that she has to 'make up for'. They're not much of weaknesses to begin with.

That opening sentence tells me you need to improve your sheik MU knowledge. Sheik thrives off misinformation so much.

The Problem with Sheik is the 50:50 that takes stocks at unreasonable low %. Sheik is designed to be safe and fast and rack damage pretty fast but with kill problems. The 50:50 makes totally up for that flaw. If you are past the 50:50 % you can just spam needles because now the knockback is completely annoying and juggles you alone with almost no effort.

If she would just really have a killing problem Sheik would probably still be the best Character or Top2 but the easy 50:50 makes it a joke. Yoshi would love to have such an easy kill set-up.

It isnt a 50/50 in the sense that you only have two options to choose. Many characters especially floaties have several options to do in the 50/50s. The 50/50 isnt free you need to lab sheik hard because she is the best in the game.