Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Darklink401]

Vinnie, Mr. R, and Denti all come to mind, all of whom regularly take their local tournaments (and others) with Sheik...

The top power ranked player in my region is also a Sheik main.

However, none of these except Mr.R are usually considered top 5 in the states,and Mr R has not only lost to a Meta Knight at a tournament, but a Toon link as well.

Sheik IS the best character in the game, but I see no reason why she should be judged as being 'bad for the metagame' when there are multiple characters at the top, ZSS, Mario, Rosalina, Pikachu, etc that consistently take games off Sheiks.

 

[S_B]

that consistently take games off Sheiks.

First of all, define "consistent". Players would lose with MK on occasion in Brawl as well but that didn't mean he wasn't broken.

Second, the problem isn't that Sheik can never lose but that Sheik is personally invalidating such a huge portion of the roster. There are characters who need to have a secondary because their Sheik matchup is just THAT bad.

Like I said, all of the top tier could use a bit of toning down, but Sheik is still head and shoulders above in terms of how many other characters are basically unplayable because of her.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

However, none of these except Mr.R are usually considered top 5 in the states,and Mr R has not only lost to a Meta Knight at a tournament, but a Toon link as well.

Sheik IS the best character in the game, but I see no reason why she should be judged as being 'bad for the metagame' when there are multiple characters at the top, ZSS, Mario, Rosalina, Pikachu, etc that consistently take games off Sheiks.

I think the argument is that one things settle down with no more patches, Sheik will gain more ground in all of those MUs.

She's basically stuck in MK Year 1 mode until patches stop. After that point the argument is she'll reach MK Year 2 and Year 3 and so forth

 

[Y2Kay]

Your tournament viability and solo viability is hugely determined by your matchups with Sheik and ZSS (and to a lesser extent rosalina and ryu) Having a losing MU against the other top tiers isn't nearly as crippling as those two.

that might be a problem.

 

[TriTails]

TriTails fthrow up air is not even close to a legit kill combo, sometimes you can air dodge mixup bouncing fish but that's more a bait than something legit.

...I have done this many times before. Either this true combos or my opponents are just stupid enough not to airdodge bc I go for U-air every frickin' time and it hits. May not be a legit kill setup on someone like Bowser but I'm sure I've killed people off with this setup without them having time to airdodge or whatever.

Ground mobility is a lot more important than air mobility.

I feel as Luigi would disagree.

He's a floaty, with 2nd slowest airspeed. It takes him forever to SHFF aerials compared to someone like Sheik or Greninja, or even Mario. He has little range on his aerials except for B-air, so he gets outspaced hard. You stay in the air long enough for people to hit you but short enough to have airdodge landing lag, with booty fast-fall also. Doesn't help he's free when getting juggled because he can't do a thing unless he gets in range for B-air because, again, air mobility. Also, fading back offstage tend to be ineffective due to how slow he moves and Garbage Missile's lag.

Not saying he should get Mario's airspeed, in which case he would ROTFL Sheik lulzy and go 80:20 against half of the cast, but sometimes you need to get a healthy mix of both to be consistent. Perhaps ground mobility is more important, but aerial mobility isn't far behind because you're going to be in the air 85% of the time. Air mobility also helps dealing with projectiles, especially when SHAD works for you.

In terms of chasing down opponents though, ground mobility definitely beatts out air mobility. If I were to interpret, I would consider ground mobility as 'offensive speed' while aerial mobility as 'defensive speed'. Ground mobility helps chasing down opponents and a lot of setups and combos start from the ground, so having great ground speed helps to deliver your attacks. Aerial mobility helps avoiding juggles and lets you move more freely offstage, as well when you are trying to fade back, you can use long lasting aerials more effectively as you're moving back with a hitbox to protect you.

At least, that's what I think anyway. IDK what's going on my brain right now.

Sheik IS the best character in the game, but I see no reason why she should be judged as being 'bad for the metagame' when there are multiple characters at the top, ZSS, Mario, Rosalina, Pikachu, etc that consistently take games off Sheiks.

She holds back characters which should be good had she hadn't existed. Take pre-patch Greninja for example. I heard his MU with Sheik is pretty bad before Shuriken buffs. Take pre-patch Luigi. He would be great if it weren't for the fact Sheik is a worse MU than Rosa, and those MUs are pretty bad :').

Top tiers can handle her, sure. But that's the thing. Top tiers. Her strength tend to be overpowering for a lot of the cast to handle, and while she doesn't go 80:20 against half of the cast, she becomes a problem when she has little weaknesses to exploit and her tools ripping people off in return. Like, who in the cast doesn't struggle against needles? Even Sheik herself would prefer a ditto where needles aren't used against her.

Wall of text. Ffamran symptom has officially infected me.

 

[Zelder]

The distance between Meta Knight and the rest of the (viable) Brawl cast is much, much further than the distance between Sheik and the rest of the (viable) Smash 4 roster, though.

 

[Darklink401]

...I have done this many times before. Either this true combos or my opponents are just stupid enough not to airdodge bc I go for U-air every frickin' time and it hits. May not be a legit kill setup on someone like Bowser but I'm sure I've killed people off with this setup without them having time to airdodge or whatever.


I feel as Luigi would disagree.

He's a floaty, with 2nd slowest airspeed. It takes him forever to SHFF aerials compared to someone like Sheik or Greninja, or even Mario. He has little range on his aerials except for B-air, so he gets outspaced hard. You stay in the air long enough for people to hit you but short enough to have airdodge landing lag, with booty fast-fall also. Doesn't help he's free when getting juggled because he can't do a thing unless he gets in range for B-air because, again, air mobility. Also, fading back offstage tend to be ineffective due to how slow he moves and Garbage Missile's lag.

Not saying he should get Mario's airspeed, in which case he would ROTFL Sheik lulzy and go 80:20 against half of the cast, but sometimes you need to get a healthy mix of both to be consistent. Perhaps ground mobility is more important, but aerial mobility isn't far behind because you're going to be in the air 85% of the time. Air mobility also helps dealing with projectiles, especially when SHAD works for you.

In terms of chasing down opponents though, ground mobility definitely beatts out air mobility. If I were to interpret, I would consider ground mobility as 'offensive speed' while aerial mobility as 'defensive speed'. Ground mobility helps chasing down opponents and a lot of setups and combos start from the ground, so having great ground speed helps to deliver your attacks. Aerial mobility helps avoiding juggles and lets you move more freely offstage, as well when you are trying to fade back, you can use long lasting aerials more effectively as you're moving back with a hitbox to protect you.

At least, that's what I think anyway. IDK what's going on my brain right now.


She holds back characters which should be good had she hadn't existed. Take pre-patch Greninja for example. I heard his MU with Sheik is pretty bad before Shuriken buffs. Take pre-patch Luigi. He would be great if it weren't for the fact Sheik is a worse MU than Rosa, and those MUs are pretty bad :').

Top tiers can handle her, sure. But that's the thing. Top tiers. Her strength tend to be overpowering for a lot of the cast to handle, and while she doesn't go 80:20 against half of the cast, she becomes a problem when she has little weaknesses to exploit and her tools ripping people off in return. Like, who in the cast doesn't struggle against needles? Even Sheik herself would prefer a ditto where needles aren't used against her.

Wall of text. Ffamran symptom has officially infected me.

Then those characters are not solo-viable.

Which is fine, they can still be good characters, but not every character will be solo-viable.

There's nothing holding these characters back from showing their true potential, except a bad MU that is sheik, but they're not as harsh as Rosa vs Ness, and Shaky and FOW still make that look good.

 

[Y2Kay]

these are the gatekeeper five. The aspects of these characters just invalidate the lower tiers. If all of these we're given a slight haircut (bar maybe Sonic) It would be a free for all. Imagine trying to make a tier list in a meta like that......

Side Note: and also does this to lower tiers to a lesser extent

 

[Darklink401]

these are the gatekeeper five. The aspects of these characters just invalidate the lower tiers. If all of these we're given a slight haircut (bar maybe Sonic) It would be a free for all. Imagine trying to make a tier list in a meta like that......

Side Note: and also does this to lower tiers to a lesser extent

I personally don't put Ryu or Rosa in top 5, but that's just me.

I feel the only characters that invalidate others are Sheik, Pikachu and Mario, simply because they just have superior frame data in most ways. I don't think Mario is top 3, ZSS I feel is 2/3 (alongside Pikachu) but she has more flaws that humanize her. She just has an astonishing punish game.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Kirby still has the standard lightweight issues, and the fact that he naturally has no free-use projectiles without using the Copy Ability is just salt in the wound. That's his biggest flaw; he has no ranged game without copying a projectile. He's no in terms of lag, but there's not much benefit to that if he's forced to get close to do damage, which places him square in the enemy's danger zone.

And he'll still have issues approaching heavyweights and power hitters because he's light, and characters like get around this because of blazing speed and rapid attacks. doesn't have that luxury.

Characters like , and make mincemeat out of him.

1. Don't know if I'd say say "mincemeat". Out of all the match-ups he has, there are really only 5 (off the top of my head) that seem like truly awful match-ups for Kirby, namely MK, Peach, Sonic, Luigi (especially), and Yoshi (he still has a lot of unfavorable match-ups, more than he has advantageous match-ups, but those five are just a nightmare for him). Kirby has his issues with them, but unlike the other five, he can get great mileage off of their weaknesses in comparison.

2. We really don't know how much his buffs are really going to factor in the match-ups; I can see those match-ups getting a bit better with his ability to punish their attacks easier and u-throw being a better kill option, though this is just speculation.

3. More of a side note, but I did see one tourney match of Kirby v. Char. I know it's not much (and the Char player won), but it didn't seem nearly as bad as the Luigi matchups I've seen lol

Kirby still has issues concerning the safety of his attacks, but this patch did address a lot of his problems (approaching/punishing/killing). They're still not great nor are they gone, but they're at least better than he what he had initially. And we'll take what we've gotten gladly. :D

Really have to watch out for the new Bowser grab tho

 

[Jams.]

First of all, define "consistent". Players would lose with MK on occasion in Brawl as well but that didn't mean he wasn't broken.

Second, the problem isn't that Sheik can never lose but that Sheik is personally invalidating such a huge portion of the roster. There are characters who need to have a secondary because their Sheik matchup is just THAT bad.

Like I said, all of the top tier could use a bit of toning down, but Sheik is still head and shoulders above in terms of how many other characters are basically unplayable because of her.

Could you please list the characters you feel are invalidated solely because of Sheik? This has come up before (but I can't find the posts unfortunately), and that discussion convinced me the list is really not that long. Is there anyone else beyond Mega Man and Greninja?

Honestly, and I realize I'm hugely influenced by main bias when I say this, ZSS (and by extension Metaknight) feels so much worse to play against than Sheik. There's just something so crushing and demoralizing about being up 80% and outplaying your opponent in the neutral, only to have your stock be swept out from under your feet when they land that one combo starter. Then, as you attempt to outcome the emotional damage of the previous stock, they land another combo starter with rage at 20% and suddenly the game is over.

My just desserts from playing tiny Brawler I guess.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I personally don't put Ryu or Rosa in top 5, but that's just me.

I feel the only characters that invalidate others are Sheik, Pikachu and Mario, simply because they just have superior frame data in most ways. I don't think Mario is top 3, ZSS I feel is 2/3 (alongside Pikachu) but she has more flaws that humanize her. She just has an astonishing punish game.

You don't have to be top whatever in order to be a gatekeeper character. There's a strong correlation, but it's not an absolute rule. Brawl Dedede comes to mind.

Could you please list the characters you feel are invalidated solely because of Sheik? This has come up before (but I can't find the posts unfortunately), and that discussion convinced me the list is really not that long. Is there anyone else beyond Mega Man and Greninja?

Honestly, and I realize I'm hugely influenced by main bias when I say this, ZSS (and by extension Metaknight) feels so much worse to play against than Sheik. There's just something so crushing and demoralizing about being up 80% and outplaying your opponent in the neutral, only to have your stock be swept out from under your feet when they land that one combo starter. Then, as you attempt to outcome the emotional damage of the previous stock, they land another combo starter with rage at 20% and suddenly the game is over.

My just desserts from playing tiny Brawler I guess.

I'm not sure if Sheik straight up invalidates anyone (ZSS and Rosalina are far more extreme in that regard anyway), but I'd bet money that she's the single worst matchup for a solid chunk of the cast, and she's still advantaged against most of the rest.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The distance between Meta Knight and the rest of the (viable) Brawl cast is much, much further than the distance between Sheik and the rest of the (viable) Smash 4 roster, though.

Uh, the distance in Brawl was only truly apparent near end of the meta. At one point, Snake had an even MU and so did Diddy and Olimar. The distance may be as far as every other Smash game once the optimal and most aggressive, but safe meta comes in (that's how you know the meta has grown).


Right now, i feel people are getting caught up in the now when thdy believe this is the best balanced smash game (which is 64 actually due to its scarce cast and stupid combos).

Every Smash game is horrendously unbalanced, but we love this ugly, unbalanced thing.

 

[S_B]

Could you please list the characters you feel are invalidated solely because of Sheik?

The biggest one would probably be Little Mac, since he's Fair bait all the way to death. After him, pretty much all of the heavies lose horrendously to Sheik (Bowser, DK, D3, Ike), and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

Though, to be fair, as the ZSS meta is developing further, I think ZSS' list of invalidations is overlapping with Sheik's more and more all the time. They both need to be toned down a bit.

Rosa at least has one key weakness that anyone can exploit and that is "kill Luma".

Honestly, and I realize I'm hugely influenced by main bias when I say this, ZSS (and by extension Metaknight) feels so much worse to play against than Sheik. There's just something so crushing and demoralizing about being up 80% and outplaying your opponent in the neutral, only to have your stock be swept out from under your feet when they land that one combo starter. Then, as you attempt to outcome the emotional damage of the previous stock, they land another combo starter with rage at 20% and suddenly the game is over.

I agree that ZSS is still pretty damn ridiculous. The Up+B is just way too powerful, especially for how little landing lag it has.

If it misses, ZSS can still steer during the fall so it's unlikely that the opponent will be able to land a fully charged Fsmash on them or anything, meaning the reward ZSS gets from that Up+B is likely WAY more than the opponent will get if she misses. Also, paralyzer into Up+B is a very safe means of confirming that it will land.

 

[Ulevo]

Anyone that believes ZSS is ridiculous does not understand how to analyze match ups or pick a good character at the CSS. She is fine, and does not invalidate anyone that is not already in need of buffs.

Sheik on the other hand is not okay.

 

[Mario766]

Ike does not lose horribly enough to Sheik. It's probably ~6-4 which is nothing like Brawl 7-3 against MK.

 

[C0rvus]

Sheik seems to be Greninja's biggest problem.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Can't believe we're talking about characters that Shiek and ZSS invalidate and not mentioning Ganondorf.

 

[Jams.]

The biggest one would probably be Little Mac, since he's Fair bait all the way to death. After him, pretty much all of the heavies lose horrendously to Sheik (Bowser, DK, D3, Ike), and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

Mac has tons of bad matchups besides Sheik though. For instance, Mario and Greninja are pretty awful for him because they can gimp him for free with windboxes (waterboxes?) and can contest him in neutral. I don't think Mac would be anywhere near solo viable with Sheik removed, though I think he's still a decent pocket/CP character.

I think the heavies in general also lose badly to characters like ZSS, Rosalina, MK, and Ryu. This is because they all share similar weakness of poor landing options, lack of safety, and being super easy to combo; these are weaknesses that can be exploited by many good characters, not just Sheik. I don't think any of them would suddenly jump in viability with Sheik removed either. ZSS is more commonly cited as the "fatty gatekeeper" honestly, though I think Trifroze's video will help make those matchups less one-sided.

 

[Vipermoon]

Every topic we touch on in this thread always has someone saying "can't believe we are talking about topic without mentioning character"

Sorry, this post wasn't helpful but I had to say this.

 

[LancerStaff]

Every topic we touch on in this thread always has someone saying "can't believe we are talking about topic without mentioning character"

Sorry, this post wasn't helpful but I had to say this.

Considering there's about sixty characters in the game, it shouldn't be surprising.

Back on track, with how diverse Smash is I'd say most characters have one or two really great matchups because the way their character works against another. Even fairly tame characters like the Pits or Mario get really slanted matchups because of otherwise minor things like FLUDD. Heck, last I heard Zelda had a positive matchup with Rosalina because of Din's Fire. (Go ahead and take that one with a grain of salt though, considering I heard it on the Zelda forum.)

I mean, we'd probably have to remove a good deal of fun moves if we didn't want characters invalidating others. If we took out all the stuff the top tiers have then we'd be dealing with high tier gimmicks such as Hydro Pump invalidating characters and honestly a less fun game.

 

[PK Gaming]

Considering there's about sixty characters in the game, it shouldn't be surprising.

Back on track, with how diverse Smash is I'd say most characters have one or two really great matchups because the way their character works against another. Even fairly tame characters like the Pits or Mario get really slanted matchups because of otherwise minor things like FLUDD. Heck, last I heard Zelda had a positive matchup with Rosalina because of Din's Fire. (Go ahead and take that one with a grain of salt though, considering I heard it on the Zelda forum.)

Uh huh

Anyway, I don't agree with that assertion at all. Zelda probably lacks a single "great" matchup, and I can tell you straight up that she doesn't have a positive matchup against Rosalina. Why even bring that up?

I mean, we'd probably have to remove a good deal of fun moves if we didn't want characters invalidating others. If we took out all the stuff the top tiers have then we'd be dealing with high tier gimmicks such as Hydro Pump invalidating characters and honestly a less fun game.

That's a slippery slope scenario and an extremely poor one at that. Smash 4 is pretty good about characters not invalidating others (at least in comparison to other Smash games) though it's problematic in a few instances. I'm pretty and the game would be better off if Sheik didn't have kill setups, and it definitely wouldn't reduce be reduced to "Hydro Pump invalidating characters" as you put it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Uh huh

Anyway, I don't agree with that assertion at all. Zelda probably lacks a single "great" matchup, and I can tell you straight up that she doesn't have a positive matchup against Rosalina. Why even bring that up?



That's a slippery slope scenario and an extremely poor one at that. Smash 4 is pretty good about characters not invalidating others (at least in comparison to other Smash games) though it's problematic in a few instances. I'm pretty and the game would be better off if Sheik didn't have kill setups, and it definitely wouldn't reduce be reduced to "Hydro Pump invalidating characters" as you put it.

The explanation being that Luma just dies to Din's with no way to nullify it, considering it's uneffected by Gravitational Pull.

Either way, consider this: If Zelda were as good a character as Rosalina, then undoubtedly the matchup would be slanted into Zelda's favor just because of how Din's works on a basic level. Or if Mac were buffed to Mario level while keeping the terrible recovery, Mario would still have an overwhelmingly positive matchup because Mac's just that weak to FLUDD.

I understand why people want needles nerfed, and I'll agree. But they'd still invalidate characters if they were toned down. By design, it's supposed to be a safe and transcendent projectile. Anything less and it's not Shiek's needles. At best we'd reach a point where nobody's solo viable because of silly things like the Ness vs. Rosalina matchup cropping up on every character, or be forced to strip out the gimmicks.

It's the same principal where people think Brawl had some characters "feel" better, like Dorf's SH autocancel thunderstomps and things like that. We lost a ton of fun things like that in the transition... It's the price of balance.

 

[HoSmash4]

In my opinion the nerf/buff culture is stopping Smash 4's metagame from progressing as fast. People dont want to work as hard on improving their gameplay/character metagame because oh, a Luigi nerf might drop and 9 months of complaining about the matchup rather than labbing the matchup meant I now can beat luigi now he has been gutted. And I mean gutted. He seriously has no tools except to defend himself from your mistakes.

I for one cant wait until the patches finish, regardless of who gets nerfed or buffed.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Ike does not lose horribly enough to Sheik. It's probably ~6-4 which is nothing like Brawl 7-3 against MK.

Early Brawl days, like when San first came out, it wasn't considered a 7-3 though, that's the point. The approach to MUs become better for the top tier while becoming increasingly harder as the meta gets stronger. Sure it may be considered 6-4 now, but who's to say it won't get any worse?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ganondorf would disagree, but then he doesn't have either.

I feel as Luigi would disagree.

If you had to pick - would you rather fight against a Ganon/Luigi with increased ground speed or increased airspeed. I would not, under any circumstance, give them better ground speed. Especially not Ganondorf. I'd give him more KO power or better dph before I'd agree to fight a Ganon with increased ground speed.

these are the gatekeeper five. The aspects of these characters just invalidate the lower tiers. If all of these we're given a slight haircut (bar maybe Sonic) It would be a free for all. Imagine trying to make a tier list in a meta like that......

Side Note: and also does this to lower tiers to a lesser extent

Replace with and you're pretty much spot on. Fox destroys a lot of characters, Mario doesn't really destroy anybody.

Anyone that believes ZSS is ridiculous does not understand how to analyze match ups or pick a good character at the CSS. She is fine, and does not invalidate anyone that is not already in need of buffs.

Sheik on the other hand is not okay.

I don't know man. ZSS straight up can't be realistially beaten by a huge chunk of the cast. As soon as she gets the right opening the opponent either loses his stock or takes so much damage that he has real chance to ever catch up again. ZSS is definitely not OK at this point. I think it'd become more obvious if more people played this character.

 

[HoSmash4]

Early Brawl days, like when San first came out, it wasn't considered a 7-3 though, that's the point. The approach to MUs become better for the top tier while becoming increasingly harder as the meta gets stronger. Sure it may be considered 6-4 now, but who's to say it won't get any worse?

Are we assuming completely that it wont get better for low tiers? They may have a lot of hidden stuff not yet found.

 

[Y2Kay]

I personally don't put Ryu or Rosa in top 5, but that's just me.

I feel the only characters that invalidate others are Sheik, Pikachu and Mario, simply because they just have superior frame data in most ways. I don't think Mario is top 3, ZSS I feel is 2/3 (alongside Pikachu) but she has more flaws that humanize her. She just has an astonishing punish game.

Nah it was more just like the group of top tiers that wreck lower tiers the hardest.

Replace with and you're pretty much spot on. Fox destroys a lot of characters, Mario doesn't really destroy anybody.

Yeah your right, I put mario on there cuz shout out to all my heavies out there!

 

[Man Li Gi]

Are we assuming completely that it wont get better for low tiers? They may have a lot of hidden stuff not yet found.

No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying, the frequency and rate things found for top tiers in general will overcome the rate and techs found for low tiers simply since there are more people playing the top tiers. Thus will change the meta into the top tier's favor and will actually cause the meta to become pretty fast, which hurts the guys with poor mobility.

I mean, there is a complete YT channel that finds legit techs for Sheik mains called the Deku Tree (or something to that extent) yet Dr. Mario mains or secondaries are just scrapping for videos to watch.

 

[bc1910]

ZSS is definitely an invalidating force.

She invalidates every heavy, and DK and to a lesser extent Zard and Bowser aren't in desperate need of buffs. All are good, functional characters.

Her punish game is just too good for most characters to keep up with.

 

[Smog Frog]

on the topic of

how did the buffs treat him? many people believed he was bottom 5(myself included) but these buffs are without a doubt significant. fair being safe on shield(i even heard its a blockstring with dtilt now?), tail base uair being a powerful kill move, universal landing lag reductions, dair active frames being doubled, and the movement speed buffs are significant(on top of minor buffs such as fsmash sourspot getting more damage and fair startup being reduced 1 frame). does this affect his matchups in a meaningful way? does this make him a clear cut above the bottom tiers?

 

[TTTTTsd]

on the topic of

how did the buffs treat him? many people believed he was bottom 5(myself included) but these buffs are without a doubt significant. fair being safe on shield(i even heard its a blockstring with dtilt now?), tail base uair being a powerful kill move, universal landing lag reductions, dair active frames being doubled, and the movement speed buffs are significant(on top of minor buffs such as fsmash sourspot getting more damage and fair startup being reduced 1 frame). does this affect his matchups in a meaningful way? does this make him a clear cut above the bottom tiers?

I think they're more than enough to pull him ahead of wherever people had him before, even if only by a little bit. He's just in general vastly improved IMO, although still with the same flaws.

His movement and option tree has expanded GREATLY though, the buffs have been quite kind.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I think they're more than enough to pull him ahead of wherever people had him before, even if only by a little bit. He's just in general vastly improved IMO, although still with the same flaws.

His movement and option tree has expanded GREATLY though, the buffs have been quite kind.

Unfortunately, the buffs still can't mask Mewtwo's biggest flaw; he's a massive lightweight and floaty character. And I like playing as Mewtwo, but that cripples him pretty badly; because he's a big target and he's lightweight.

 

[adom4]

Unfortunately, the buffs still can't mask Mewtwo's biggest flaw; he's a massive lightweight and floaty character. And I like playing as Mewtwo, but that cripples him pretty badly; because he's a big target and he's lightweight.

Mewtwo isn't floaty, his falling speed is average.

 

[Blobface]

To be completely honest the only thing that really separate Sheik and ZSS from the rest of the cast is their ability to get out of disadvantaged situations with their Down-B's, meaning they're generally going to take less damage in a given situation than almost any other character.

Are we really still assuming Sheik has no even, much less disadvantaged, matchups? Not even against ZSS or other top tiers? That seems a massive exaggeration to me.

 

[Rizen]

I can see Sheik with even MUs but who does she lose to? IDK much about her MUs.

Mewtwo was a BIG winner in the last patch but it's hard to say where that boost landed him. Other characters got buffs too. He definitely improved and will climb at least a little on the tier list.

 

[HoSmash4]

I reckon Sheik goes even or maybe loses to sonic on FD/Duck hunt. ZSS does good versus sheik on battlefield/dreamland. Mario does pretty well on battlefield as well. Ryu loses to Sheik yes but when Ryu needs just a few openings to close out a stock, matchups on paper dont matter for him.

To be completely honest the only thing that really separate Sheik and ZSS from the rest of the cast is their ability to get out of disadvantaged situations with their Down-B's, meaning they're generally going to take less damage in a given situation than almost any other character.

Are we really still assuming Sheik has no even, much less disadvantaged, matchups? Not even against ZSS or other top tiers? That seems a massive exaggeration to me.

People assume that the best character will have no negative matchup, which often is the case. But once they are labelled as the top character, people wont believe that they have a disadvantaged matchup ever.

 

[Antonykun]

Every topic we touch on in this thread always has someone saying "can't believe we are talking about topic without mentioning character"

Sorry, this post wasn't helpful but I had to say this.

In my defense, people were talking about d-airs and d-air spikes without mentioning arguably the best d-air/spike in the game: turnips.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

1. Don't know if I'd say say "mincemeat". Out of all the match-ups he has, there are really only 5 (off the top of my head) that seem like truly awful match-ups for Kirby, namely MK, Peach, Sonic, Luigi (especially), and Yoshi (he still has a lot of unfavorable match-ups, more than he has advantageous match-ups, but those five are just a nightmare for him). Kirby has his issues with them, but unlike the other five, he can get great mileage off of their weaknesses in comparison.

2. We really don't know how much his buffs are really going to factor in the match-ups; I can see those match-ups getting a bit better with his ability to punish their attacks easier and u-throw being a better kill option, though this is just speculation.

3. More of a side note, but I did see one tourney match of Kirby v. Char. I know it's not much (and the Char player won), but it didn't seem nearly as bad as the Luigi matchups I've seen lol

Kirby still has issues concerning the safety of his attacks, but this patch did address a lot of his problems (approaching/punishing/killing). They're still not great nor are they gone, but they're at least better than he what he had initially. And we'll take what we've gotten gladly. :D

Really have to watch out for the new Bowser grab tho

There is a difference between a complete **** MU and a really bad MU (-3 and -2 respectively) and Kirby doesn't have five -3 MUs. His only horrendous MUs are Luigi/Sonic, but then he has SO many -2s and -1s it isn't even funny.

These buffs will make it easier to CP but won't really effect the bad MUs, unless it's maybe Rosalina or something.

What people don't get (not you, just general) is that Kirby is only relevant in the metagame because he has even MUs with ZSS/Falcon/Fox, all known as top 15. He loses so many top tier MUs and so many other MUs that without his presence with those characters he would be bad. He has a couple of other decent MUs, like against Robin, Little Mac, and Wii Fit, but their relevance isn't as strong. These buffs made things s bit easier but it isn't massive.

Also Antonykun in self-defense, your argument was that even it he doesn't get the 1/3 spike, the other two are still useful, which I agree, but I was talking specifically about the spike part. A 1/3 spike isn't very reliable as a spike but it's definitely one of the better d-airs in the game.

 

[Xeze]

How's Bowser in this new patch? His new up throw makes him look like pre-patch Luigi.