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If I had to make a comparison to the importance of Bowser's UThrow, its importance is the same as Millia's Tandem Top. Both are extremely important to their playstyles, but they aren't the complete center of their playstyles. With the case of Bowser, UThrow SUPPLEMENTS his punishing playstyle. Not disagreeing, but I wanted to toss this in.
Gonna need more of a sample group than this to change people's minds, bud.
I think the problem is that people just don't see high level Mewtwo play so they're basing their arguments on For Glory and what they can do in training mode. We just need someone to show what Mewtwo can do at a tournament level for people to start changing their minds.
Well, in relative terms of course if someone goes up then someone else must come down. That's how sorted lists work. But in absolute terms, there have been no nerfs that I'm aware of this patch, which means that the only real argument you can make for anyone "losing" the game of nerfs is that they went from a positive/neutral matchup to a neutral/negative one against some newly buffed character. Or Cloud, I guess.
Charizard worse than Mewtwo? FFFT.Characters I am certain are worse than Mewtwo:
To be fair, he says this about a lot of characters.
Aren't Japanese Mewtwos getting results of some kind?
I know plenty about Charizard. His neutral is hot garbage, and his reward is below average. I don't see it. Mewtwo even kills more consistently than Zard.
Mewtwo does get more representation in Japan. I think they actually considered him a mid tier character before the patch so it'll be interesting to see what they think of him now.
With all due respect: while Bowsers new throw is probably the greatest gift smash has ever given to him, I fail to see how it gives him a chance to have more overall potential over Luigi in the grand scheme of things. Bowser is still a big hurt box who couldn't land onstage to save his stock against a self respecting smash player. His frame data is decent for a heavy, but that's not really something you'd hold for bragging rights. Furthermore, Bowser's neutral...isn't bad at all, but I do believe Luigi's to be better. I think what Bowser has at this point is more potential for his advantage state...but that's it. His disadvantage stays awful, his neutral stays the same and his advantage improves. Overall, I'd say Luigi still has more potential. Don't get me wrong, Bowser is now a scary ******* when he's got you where he wants you, but part of the challenge has always been getting in to deal some pain. And before you say that's the same thing with Luigi, at least Luigi has an amazing projectile to work with and a disadvantage state that isn't complete garbage.
Bear in mind it's best to take ZeRo's opinions with a grain of salt. He is indisputably an exceptionally knowledgeable player in terms of the game's technical depth, but he has a tendency to have radically different (sometimes even outright misinformed) opinions of characters compared to others.
Although true, that... wasn't related to my question at all. (Firefoxx gets it.) Whose MU against Mewtwo, Bowser or Lucas just notably worsened?
Yeah that's happened to me as well. Grounded non-LB Cross Slash is not very reliable. It reminds of Marth's Dancing Blade more and more every day. Except DB got fixed.
Oh I dunno. If someone is recovering high, uairing them pretty much guarantees they'll drift back to stage, but Climhazzard + the downward swipe stands a chance to spike them to their doom.
DP's Side-B has a use outside of the Rosa MU now and I think that's pretty cool! But unfortunately it's still Side-B, yeah. That being said it's very rewarding but you also have to press your positioning well to land it, and catch something laggy, but hey, reward is reward! It at least gives more merit to Dark Pit as a whole. At least saying "He has a better Side-B" is actually 100% true now.
His recovery both ways is the best of the super heavies, even without customs; though to be fair, when your only competition is garbage in either one department or the other, that's not all that hard to do.
Right, Charizard has an easier time getting back to the stage than DK and Bowser.
You put way too much stock into recovery. If that's the big thing separates good characters from bad ones, then why in the world is Falcon considered an objectively better character than Zelda? Why does Fox stand head and shoulder above Palutena? It's because they have better neutral games, can pressure opponents effectively, end stocks reliably and have more than a handful of options at any one time. Literally the only thing they do better than Falcon is recovery. Considering Falcon is a heavyweight, he's probably going to live longer than either of them by default. Recovery is not the be-all / end-all of a character's viability, especially when they're so heavy that getting them off-stage is a battle in itself.
I don't think Mac is necessarily better either, but that's not entirely relevant. Neither of them have done much to justify them being considered very good characters. To be fair, neither have Mewtwo or Bowser, but it's been three days since they were buffed: it will take a while before we have a better idea as to how more viable this had made them, if it indeed had at all. There's nothing to suggest Charizard is any better than them, especially when their meta has gotten a non-trivial kick-start in the most recent patch.
They make a difference in pretty much every matchup, if only by default. There's really no matchup where you want Dark Pit's arrows, the versatility of Pit's are just too handy to not have. That and Pit's f-tilt still has better kill power than Dark Pit's, so that's worth mentioning.
Really? Cause I was totally going to decide how the new Bowser v. Luigi matchup plays out based on one set in one tournament.
I didn't actually say Ike was worse than Charizard; in fact, I'm not even sure why people place Ike so low on lists, either. Him and Charizard are both underutilized...but Ike also seems to be getting a lot more respect than Charizard, even after Charizard's been getting so many buffs with only a few nerfs just like Ike has. Plenty of people would say that Ike is too low on the tier lists, but nobody says it about Charizard except the people who use him; even though they're both very good. Ike may be objectively better in some areas, but Charizard is still by no means a garbage character.
Normally I'd agree but uh....
Honestly, you should be glad people underrate your character. That makes your character even more deadly. Nobody will know how to beat him.
I killed a Lucina at the ledge even below that percent on 3DS. 39%, and all I did was read the get up.
I hate to say it, but if you think Zard is better than everyone else says he is, go out and prove it, and I'm not being snarky when I say that but sincere.
Okay. This is a good example of why you shouldn't talk about characters you know nothing about.His recovery both ways is the best of the super heavies, even without customs; though to be fair, when your only competition is garbage in either one department or the other, that's not all that hard to do.
But he's definitely the most versatile of the super heavies, too; he can play spacing and can play the close-up game and does both pretty well. The reason I place Charizard above DK and Bowser is because they have a harder time recovering than Charizard does, even in spite of being technically stronger; they only really have one recovery move each, and DK's is hot garbage if your below the stage, while Bowser's is at least decent, but suffers from being faster and going farther horizontally than vertically. Flare Blitz does wonders for Charizard's recovery, since it basically gives him one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game, albeit at the cost of some chip damage, while Fly is a great OOS option and good for getting back onto the stage from below the ledge.
His aerials come out fast and combo well into other moves, and having Flamethrower to shut down projectiles is a great benefit for him, since it lets him get in close without too much risk. His jab is extremely quick for his weight class, too. DK and Bowser are good, but they still have big flaws that limit their potential (basically, they both have one-note recoveries which are easy to gimp). Same with Ike, although I'll concede that Ike is definitely close behind Charizard in terms of viability.
I don't think he's at B+ tier, but I'd hazard that maybe the middle of B is a good place for him. I cannot see Charizard as being worse than Little Mac. I mean, I love Little Mac, but there's no chance that he's better than Charizard, even with his ridiculous ground game.
I've tried hitting DK out of Up+B. It's surprisingly hard and I've only found it realistic with really good disjoint and timing. Like, most heavies in this game actually have pretty solid recoveries....
By the same token we have Cloud's Finishing Touch, which not only has comparable startup but no armor at all. To say that he can kill you with it on any mistake is a bit of an exaggeration.
Nobie
pretty much said it all, but didn't mention that with his newly christened ground speed, and his old strength and floatiness Mewtwo's probably one of the best at smacking players across the stage and then being able to reach them in time to setup edgeguards, with which he can go deep.
Or I might be just buying into the hype.
Do note the video description states that Optimal DI wasn't present.Mewtwo can essentially carry you to the blastzones now at early percents. He might just be better than we think.
https://youtu.be/yltskc53Lyg
Too early to say he might be a horizontal Meta Knight?
Well, it's not just Mewtwo that has this problem; it's shared with Link, Little Mac, Robin and even Marth at times. Some people can go out of their way to show a character is good, but it's often overshadowed by people who are on "the top" and play the top tier characters. Not only that, but outside of tournaments and into Smash Ladder (by the way, people on there are stuck in the 1.0.6. mindset), when someone wants to prove a character is good, often or not people will still reject the idea of said character being viable and it's treated as "common knowledge" there.
Really? Do you mean as soon as the animation starts or as soon as Cloud jumps? I've had instances where the red lightning appears but they barely fly very high even past 100% if I gut/poke them with limit climhazzard from the ground. o.o;