Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

Really? Do you mean as soon as the animation starts or as soon as Cloud jumps? I've had instances where the red lightning appears but they barely fly very high even past 100% if I gut/poke them with limit climhazzard from the ground. o.o;

Also honestly...how is Kirby's worst Match up NOT Metaknight?

Well, first there's the stab then the jump that launches them up. You'll know you got a clean hit with Limit Climhazzard as it does a close-up like other Limit Breaks besides Blade Beam.

It's not that strong; I usually killed with it around 120%, but it can do the trick.

 

[Y2Kay]

It's way too early to say Mewtwo is "definitely better than Zard"

Similar to Mewtwo (Ironic huh ), people act like Zard is free win due to his heavy weight stigma. Charizard isn't bad, he's got a ton of nice tools to use, better than most low and bottom tier characters. His big frame is an issue but people overestimate how much this holds him back. I've had someone argue that even was better just because of how big he was. It just gets ridiculous.

I think he's mid tier character among the likes of and I don't think he's that much worse than DK. He could go higher if and got nerfed.

It also bothers me immensely that Zard has moved nowhere on the tier list even after all the buffs and such. It simply doesn't make sense.



Granted, this is reddit we're talking about but..............

 

[Wintermelon43]

Really? Do you mean as soon as the animation starts or as soon as Cloud jumps? I've had instances where the red lightning appears but they barely fly very high even past 100% if I gut/poke them with limit climhazzard from the ground. o.o;

Also honestly...how is Kirby's worst Match up NOT Metaknight?

Because Yoshi said so.

 

[DblCrest]

Yoshi's match up is frustrating I understand and all but with how easy Metaknight can KO Kirby with Upair strings?

 

[KirbySquad101]

Yoshi's match up is frustrating I understand and all but with how easy Metaknight can KO Kirby with Upair strings?

At least Kirby can touch Meta Knight; it's just so annoying Sonic can just weave in and out on us anytime he wants and we can't do **** about it. :/

I think that's actually 3 awful match-ups for the Kirbster; not five, but kind of close, right? XD

 

[TDK]

There was a bit of discussion of who is the best heavy.

Did we all forget was a heavy?

 

[adom4]

Mewtwo can essentially carry you to the blastzones now at early percents. He might just be better than we think.

https://youtu.be/yltskc53Lyg

Too early to say he might be a horizontal Meta Knight? Or I might be just buying into the hype.

Honestly he could do that even prepatch with confusion & Fair, i got dragged a few times myself.

 

[KirbySquad101]

There was a bit of discussion of who is the best heavy.

Did we all forget was a heavy?

I had assumed a heavyweight was anyone that was heavier than , as he's the top of his own class (middleweight).

And if that's the case, wouldn't the best heavyweight be ?

 

[Dre89]

Is there actually anyone who thinks that post-buff Bowser is better than post-nerf Luigi??? I'm not sure the comparison holds.

I do

People are comparing him to DK but the difference is that Bowser has a massive dashgrab range. DK's grab reward was always kept in check by his bad dashgrab and the fact the kill window was fairly small. You could just play defensively until he got too much rage or you took too much percent.

Playing defensively isn't as effective against Bowser because of his dashgrab burst. The normal counterplay of just throwing out safe hitboxes doesn't always work either because his dashgrab is so long it can outspace most hitboxes that don't have massive disjoints. Dashgrabbing landings is free on a lot of characters.

The kill window is like 60% as well, so you can't prioritise avoiding grab but allowing to get hit by other options, especially because Bowser has several other options that are all frame 11 or faster that kill in that range anyway.

His neutral and disadvantage were already better than DKs, and now his advantage is just as good if not better. This character is seriously a contender for top 15 now.

 

[TDK]

I had assumed a heavyweight was anyone that was heavier than , as he's the top of his own class (middleweight).

And if that's the case, wouldn't the best heavyweight be ?

I usually think of the heavyweight archetype as slower characters with a few fast moves and extreme killpower and survivability, so I didn't count Ryu because of his quicker moves.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

'Zard's vertical recovery is not better than D3's, I can tell you that much right now.

Agree with NachoOfCheese about DK's recovery. It's hella overrated. Contrary to popular belief, you can either beat it clean or trade favorably with it...if you're smart.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Mewtwo can essentially carry you to the blastzones now at early percents. He might just be better than we think.

https://youtu.be/yltskc53Lyg

Too early to say he might be a horizontal Meta Knight? Or I might be just buying into the hype.

EDIT: I bought into the hype

That was the sexiest Mewtwo combo I've seen since PM 3.0

'Zard's vertical recovery is not better than D3's, I can tell you that much right now.

Agree with NachoOfCheese about DK's recovery. It's hella overrated. Contrary to popular belief, you can either beat it clean or trade favorably with it...if you're smart.

Smooth Criminal

Nah bro I'm saying the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you can hit him, I'm just saying it's not a weakness or even an inconvinience. It's an asset to his edgeguard game before anything.

EDIT: Double post. My bad.

 

[LancerStaff]

Honestly outside matchups where arrows make a huge difference (fill me on this) I don't see how Pit is beter than Dark Pit anymore. Killing really early off one good read is pretty damn good.

His side B is pretty bonkers.

Pit's arrows are incredibly versatile. They're great in almost any situation, from landing to zoning to combos to recovery. You can't run from them, and it's pretty difficult to hide from 'em. Reflectors, shields, crouching and even the Links' shields are useless. Throughout the match you're going to hit with a bunch of 'em, and it's damage Dark Pit otherwise wouldn't be getting. The extra damage from his arrows and Electroshock don't make up for it whatsoever.

Not saying he can't be better then Pit, but if you don't kill with Electroshock then you could of effectively killed faster with Pit due to the damage from arrows. And, like I said, arrows are going to be effective in almost every matchup. People are probably going to think Dark Pit's better for the time being, but it really depends on how people adapt to it.

Pit's arrows are no game changer. They are a good nuisance off stage and rack up a little damage but that's really it. Good for For Glory gimping but not gonna gimp anyone a little more talented player. Pit's Ftilt on the other hand is superior to Dark Pit's.

No... It's a lot more then that.

 

[S_B]

I do

People are comparing him to DK but the difference is that Bowser has a massive dashgrab range. DK's grab reward was always kept in check by his bad dashgrab and the fact the kill window was fairly small. You could just play defensively until he got too much rage or you took too much percent.

Playing defensively isn't as effective against Bowser because of his dashgrab burst. The normal counterplay of just throwing out safe hitboxes doesn't always work either because his dashgrab is so long it can outspace most hitboxes that don't have massive disjoints. Dashgrabbing landings is free on a lot of characters.

The kill window is like 60% as well, so you can't prioritise avoiding grab but allowing to get hit by other options, especially because Bowser has several other options that are all frame 11 or faster that kill in that range anyway.

His neutral and disadvantage were already better than DKs, and now his advantage is just as good if not better. This character is seriously a contender for top 15 now.

I like DK's aerial mobility and edgeguarding much better than Bowsers, but the one thing Bowser has that DK, D3, and Zard definitely don't is a great OoS game with either fortress or klaw, both of which are excellent "Get the **** off me!" moves which help Bowser control his own space better.

I usually think of the heavyweight archetype as slower characters with a few fast moves and extreme killpower and survivability, so I didn't count Ryu because of his quicker moves.

The "true" HWs in this game are Bowser, DK, D3, and Zard, in that order, because they all have ridiculously large bodies which make them stupid combo food. I would still consider Ike, Gdorf and ROB to be heavier characters as well, though, but I tend to think of "heavy" as being a character that suffers from being gigantic.

 

[Locke 06]

Pit's arrows are incredibly versatile. They're great in almost any situation, from landing to zoning to combos to recovery. You can't run from them, and it's pretty difficult to hide from 'em. Reflectors, shields, crouching and even the Links' shields are useless. Throughout the match you're going to hit with a bunch of 'em, and it's damage Dark Pit otherwise wouldn't be getting.



No... It's a lot more then that.

Why can't you run from them? Even at 1/2 screen full charge they're reactable.

I was literally playing Cloud v Pit two days ago. Pit spammed arrows at 1/3rd screen away, and I charged limit. I took no damage because there's no reason to take damage from them when you're standing still.

(I also slid under at midrange, which was siiiick)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Nah bro I'm saying the exact opposite of that. Yeah, you can hit him, I'm just saying it's not a weakness or even an inconvinience. It's an asset to his edgeguard game before anything.

EDIT: Double post. My bad.

Then I politely disagree to an...uh, extent I guess? My bad for not reading, dude.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo can essentially carry you to the blastzones now at early percents. He might just be better than we think.

https://youtu.be/yltskc53Lyg

Too early to say he might be a horizontal Meta Knight? Or I might be just buying into the hype.

EDIT: I bought into the hype

Yeah, these where the stuff we where labbing alright! Gosh dang it, I don't want the world knowing how awesome Mewtwo is quite yet

The reduced landing lag on nair makes it easier to combo now, so that's pretty cool!

 

[S_B]

Yeah, these where the stuff we where labbing alright! Gosh dang it, I don't want the world knowing how awesome Mewtwo is quite yet

The reduced landing lag on nair makes it easier to combo now, so that's pretty cool!

M2 needed the help, and even though I didn't even buy him, I'm glad to hear it.

M2 needs to be friggin' DANGEROUS in order to justify how light he is combined with how TALL he is.

 

[ChikoLad]

So I got a random question, something weird happened that I've never experienced before.

Is there some sort of intentionally programmed technique (as in there is a specific animation for it) where a character can tech off a wall after being hit towards it, and then wall jump off it (even if said character doesn't have a standard wall jump)?

 

[Mo433]

I dunno, I think Mewtwo beats Charizard pretty easily.

I mean, Mewtwo has all the tools he needs to fight Charizard effectively.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why can't you run from them? Even at 1/2 screen full charge they're reactable.

I was literally playing Cloud v Pit two days ago. Pit spammed arrows at 1/3rd screen away, and I charged limit. I took no damage because there's no reason to take damage from them when you're standing still.

(I also slid under at midrange, which was siiiick)

I mean you can't really get out of range or just outmaneuver them without a dodge or something. No, plinking away with arrows in neutral isn't smart against Cloud, but that's not my point.

Also you're not going to want to do the slide thing against a good one because it's pretty darned easy to have 'em crawl along the ground, and most of the time they'll be coming down on your head anyway.

So I got a random question, something weird happened that I've never experienced before.

Is there some sort of intentionally programmed technique (as in there is a specific animation for it) where a character can tech off a wall after being hit towards it, and then wall jump off it (even if said character doesn't have a standard wall jump)?

Tech walljump. You hit shield and jump at the same time or something... Anybody can do this and it's been around since at least Brawl, probably Melee.

 

[ChikoLad]

I mean you can't really get out of range or just outmaneuver them without a dodge or something. No, plinking away with arrows in neutral isn't smart against Cloud, but that's not my point.

Also you're not going to want to do the slide thing against a good one because it's pretty darned easy to have 'em crawl along the ground, and most of the time they'll be coming down on your head anyway.



Tech walljump. You hit shield and jump at the same time or something... Anybody can do this and it's been around since at least Brawl, probably Melee.

And this doesn't waste your second jump either?

 

[LancerStaff]

And this doesn't waste your second jump either?

Don't think so.

Though, this is more mechanics and techniques discussion instead of competition discussion.

 

[ARGHETH]

And this doesn't waste your second jump either?

It counts as a wall jump, so no.

 

[Kofu]

I like DK's aerial mobility and edgeguarding much better than Bowsers, but the one thing Bowser has that DK, D3, and Zard definitely don't is a great OoS game with either fortress or klaw, both of which are excellent "Get the **** off me!" moves which help Bowser control his own space better.

Uh

Did we forget about Zard's impressive OoS options? Fly has been mentioned recently and, while a touch unreliable, can muscle through a lot of things and kill pretty early. USmash is frame 6 IIRC, is huge, and kills. Jab OoS is probably faster than Bowser's too. And Flying Slam OoS? The move is faster now but you still have to drop shield or jump to get it out, that would make it something like a 15-frame (or more) commitment. Hardly a good OoS option unless the opponent royally screws ups their spacing. I have a very low opinion of Charizard but his anti-air and OoS options are excellent.

 

[Dre89]

I like DK's aerial mobility and edgeguarding much better than Bowsers, but the one thing Bowser has that DK, D3, and Zard definitely don't is a great OoS game with either fortress or klaw, both of which are excellent "Get the **** off me!" moves which help Bowser control his own space better.



The "true" HWs in this game are Bowser, DK, D3, and Zard, in that order, because they all have ridiculously large bodies which make them stupid combo food. I would still consider Ike, Gdorf and ROB to be heavier characters as well, though, but I tend to think of "heavy" as being a character that suffers from being gigantic.

Yeah DK is better offstage. Mobility isn't that significant when they're both less mobile than top tiers, but his mobility/frame data makes him more threatening in advantage outside of grabs. It's just that it's so easy for Bowser to get grabs from advantage that it doesn't really matter. DK has better vertical hitboxes though like utilt, which matters more than people would think.

Upb isn't that good OoS because good characters are safe on shield anyway. It's more something that you use on reaction to a CQC situation. DK's upb is still better though.

 

[S_B]

Did we forget about Zard's impressive OoS options? Fly has been mentioned recently and, while a touch unreliable, can muscle through a lot of things and kill pretty early. USmash is frame 6 IIRC, is huge, and kills. Jab OoS is probably faster than Bowser's too.

If fly gets shielded, you can expect to eat a charged smash of some kind. Fortress on shield is punishable, but nowhere near as much as Fly is. As for Usmash, it just got tweaked a bunch this patch so I'm not sure exactly what it does any longer.

And Flying Slam OoS? The move is faster now but you still have to drop shield or jump to get it out, that would make it something like a 15-frame (or more) commitment.

The actual grab animation is not any faster in any meaningful way in singles (except maybe for giving the opponent less time to DI it), and you don't need to drop shield to klaw, either: it can be done immediately out of shield, in front or behind Bowser.

And the real ace in the hole Bowser has for OoS play is fortress, which hits in front and behind him, can be steered along the ground to move away from shielding opponents to reduce their chance of a punish, and is phenomenal for catching rolls and can punish most aerials that hit Bowser's shield. I wouldn't recommend spamming it, but you can catch tons of landings with it.

Zard has superior ledgeguarding, landing, and recovery options, sure (I LOOOOVE flare blitz for recovering high), but Bowser's OoS game is just safer and covers more options. Between fortress beating spot dodges and landings and klaw beating shields, Bowser is VERY potent out of shield.

 

[Jucchan]

Just a heads-up, within the next hour or so SHI-Gaming's twitch will be streaming PreKVO 2016, a tournament in Osaka. Although the number of entrants is relatively small at 50, lots of interesting players are in attendance. Alongside the top Kansai players such as Ranai, Komorikiri, 9B, Earth, Saiya, Souther, Aki, and J! are players with less common characters such as aMSa, Yusan, Nojinko, OCEAN, Rin, M2_KENTO, and Dol.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm surprised that aMSa is playing, I thought he quit Smash 4 at least competitively.

 

[Kofu]

If fly gets shielded, you can expect to eat a charged smash of some kind. Fortress on shield is punishable, but nowhere near as much as Fly is. As for Usmash, it just got tweaked a bunch this patch so I'm not sure exactly what it does any longer.



The actual grab animation is not any faster in any meaningful way in singles (except maybe for giving the opponent less time to DI it), and you don't need to drop shield to klaw, either: it can be done immediately out of shield, in front or behind Bowser.

And the real ace in the hole Bowser has for OoS play is fortress, which hits in front and behind him, can be steered along the ground to move away from shielding opponents to reduce their chance of a punish, and is phenomenal for catching rolls and can punish most aerials that hit Bowser's shield. I wouldn't recommend spamming it, but you can catch tons of landings with it.

Zard has superior ledgeguarding, landing, and recovery options, sure (I LOOOOVE flare blitz for recovering high), but Bowser's OoS game is just safer and covers more options. Between fortress beating spot dodges and landings and klaw beating shields, Bowser is VERY potent out of shield.

Whirling Fortress is definitely safer than Fly (though less safe than in previous games since it no longer has invincibility). But done right Fly is a lot more rewarding.

I may be wrong about Flying Slam (it's news to me that it can be done immediately from shield but I can't try it out right now) and if so it's a decent OoS option, only hindered by its short range. I still stand by Zard having some solid OoS options himself, however.

 

[Radical Larry]

I wonder if anyone's mentioned Bowser's amazing SHAC F-Air and B-Air. Why wouldn't you want to attack with an attack that autocancels, can cover Bowser's front side and could lead into decent shield poking? Or a move that is very powerful and could lead into some good shield poking as well and still autocancels? His F-Air could lead up into a very hazardous shield poke into D-Tilt. All attacks together would nearly break a shield.

 

[Wintermelon43]

IMO Kirby's only matchups worse than 40:60 are Yoshi, Sonic, and probably Meta Knight. MAYBE the links too, probably not though.

Also Luigi is only 45:55 IMO, idk why people are acting like it's worse after he was nerfed. People used to agree with that before hewas nerfed, now it's 35:65?

 

[Kofu]

I wonder if anyone's mentioned Bowser's amazing SHAC F-Air and B-Air. Why wouldn't you want to attack with an attack that autocancels, can cover Bowser's front side and could lead into decent shield poking? Or a move that is very powerful and could lead into some good shield poking as well and still autocancels? His F-Air could lead up into a very hazardous shield poke into D-Tilt. All attacks together would nearly break a shield.

Because they have to hit at the start of the animation to autocancel and then Bowser is left vulnerable for a nontrivial amount of frames until he lands. They're great attacks but more as punishers or as a way to catch people from the air than a neutral tool.

Now if he still had Klawhopping...

 

[Browny]

I know many of yall are probably sick of Mewtwo posts,

Luckily, I dont care.

But real talk Mewtwo now has some disgusting combos that work on many characters from a wide range. Theres a whole bunch of 0-40+ set ups from a jab, dtilt, nair or fair along with a few 20+ damage strings in mid %'s. If he manages to initiate one of these near the edge it can kill. The landing lag reduction on his aerials sets them up into each other again and again.

He's now packing from what I can see, the widest array of highest damaging combos in the game. If he had a grab combo hed be a literal combo machine. Right now I'd say hes only behind shiek, mario, mk, luigi, peach, pikachu, ryu and ZSS at this point with regards to combo damage output.

 

[Djent]

Just a heads-up, within the next hour or so SHI-Gaming's twitch will be streaming PreKVO 2016, a tournament in Osaka. Although the number of entrants is relatively small at 50, lots of interesting players are in attendance. Alongside the top Kansai players such as Ranai, Komorikiri, 9B, Earth, Saiya, Souther, Aki, and J! are players with less common characters such as aMSa, Yusan, Nojinko, OCEAN, Rin, M2_KENTO, and Dol.

It's live now. Worth mentioning that they're running 1.1.3.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

iunno if any research has gone into Cloud's D-Smash, but I just found out how it's teching stuff is involved.

Cloud's D-Smash 1st hit will only send the opponent into tumble if Cloud has 40%+ Rage, the opponent's weight, damage, etc. does not affect whether or not tumble will start. Every character in the game will start going into tumble at 40%, otherwise no character goes into tumble.

The only way to tech it is to DI the first hit downwards. Every character can do this, regardless of height. However, if you don't DI it, no character can tech it.

Stale moves don't seem to affect this.

Generally, the move is going to be useless against good players.

 

[S_B]

Whirling Fortress is definitely safer than Fly (though less safe than in previous games since it no longer has invincibility). But done right Fly is a lot more rewarding.

Oh, most definitely.

I may be wrong about Flying Slam (it's news to me that it can be done immediately from shield but I can't try it out right now) and if so it's a decent OoS option, only hindered by its short range.

It's not technically immediately out of shield, but if you have any shieldstun happening to you and you buffer it, it'll come out VERY fast and will typically land. I've gotten it off behind me purely by accident more times than I can count...

I still stand by Zard having some solid OoS options himself, however.

He does have good options, they're just generally more committal.

That's entirely okay though because Zard makes up for it with having a vastly better recovery (including the option of recovering high), a better fire breath (I believe it both starts AND ends faster than Bowser's), and a kill throw which is more reliable for actual KOs than a hoo-haa.

Also, he has an option that allows him to land (rock smash) whereas Bowser basically has to retreat to the ledge every time he's knocked into the air.

I wonder if anyone's mentioned Bowser's amazing SHAC F-Air and B-Air. Why wouldn't you want to attack with an attack that autocancels, can cover Bowser's front side and could lead into decent shield poking? Or a move that is very powerful and could lead into some good shield poking as well and still autocancels? His F-Air could lead up into a very hazardous shield poke into D-Tilt. All attacks together would nearly break a shield.

Sadly, while it sounds good on paper, it's rarely the best of options for approaching with Bowser. Bowser is a character that generally wants to be played grounded, a SH fair here and there is alright, but the main problem with the SHAC aerials is that neither of them will hit short opponents.

That said, Bowser can still SHADC immediately into a special move of any kind on landing, including fortress, bomb and klaw.

 

[Dre89]

Good OoS generally isn't a meaningful strength against top tiers because many of them are safe or even have frame advantage on shield.

It's not totally useless or anything. But against good players you can't just shield something defensively and expect to punish it OoS. You'll generally have to dash when they're not expecting it to mess up their spacing/timing.

 

[Big-Cat]

Good OoS generally isn't a meaningful strength against top tiers because many of them are safe or even have frame advantage on shield.

It's not totally useless or anything. But against good players you can't just shield something defensively and expect to punish it OoS. You'll generally have to dash when they're not expecting it to mess up their spacing/timing.

As in Ms. Doesn't Commit To Anything. Then again, that ***** can be receiving an attack and then just Bouncing Fish you back.

 

[S_B]

Good OoS generally isn't a meaningful strength against top tiers because many of them are safe or even have frame advantage on shield.

Oh, I know, but it can still work in Bowser's favor in situations where a player is attacking you while cornered, like when you have them on the ledge and you shield their getup/ledge drop attack.