Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[KirbySquad101]

That's why I edited the post after initially sending that out~

Oops. Didn't notice until after I posted lol

With your data and mine then, Kirby's up throwkills around 13% later with perfect DI compared to without DI, since it kills at 148% without it. I am not to sure how bad that is to be honest haha

 

[Y2Kay]

The angle it sends at is 78 degrees, which is 2 less than R.O.B.s. It does get in the way, but it's not awful like his u-smash.

That's one thing, is it just me, or outside of Bowser and the heavies, everyone has a pretty poor grab range overall? Most of them feel like they really don't go far lol

What stage did you use for those values? I just checked on the Wii U FD, and Kirby's b-throw didn't kill at the center WITHOUT DI until around 174%.

Charizard, greninja, and Villager all have great grab ranges.

How good they are, is kinda meh bar Zard. Greninja's dash grab is good too

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

but it doesn't?

i posted the actual data up there, it kills at 161% with proper DI

Browny well my b, its 161. still tho, thats still 4th/5th strongest u-throw. Charizard has it worse because he is slow and easy to hit and manouver around, while Kirby is small and can duck bait, and is generally good against rushdown characters. The u-throw is a good buff, just because he is forced to approach doesn't mean he can't grab. We have bad approach options but it doesn't make us helpless and crappy.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Oh, yeah, also forgot to mention tethers too

But yeah, outside of the ones MC mentioned and the heavies, does anyone really have any good grab range? The best I can think of Junior and maybe Sonic?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

In terms of regular grabs? Everyone has pretty short grab range. That doesn't change that Kirby is included in that, though.

Charizard has the best grab range on a nontether character iirc

 

[Yikarur]

I'd really like people to stop posting "MU Ratios with Cloud"
Neither you nor your opponnents are playing Cloud to any what is close to his potential. Right now people haven't even reall got a grasp on how to play this character overall so match-us ratios make no sense.

I'd rather discuss buffs and how they influence their character.
I'm super happy about Lucas. His standing grab buff is HUGE. This character feels complete now. It's amazing =) I expect him to rise at least 1 tier because having a viable standing grab with a throw game like this is a huge deal.

 

[FallenHero]

I'd really like people to stop posting "MU Ratios with Cloud"
Neither you nor your opponnents are playing Cloud to any what is close to his potential. Right now people haven't even reall got a grasp on how to play this character overall so match-us ratios make no sense.

I'd rather discuss buffs and how they influence their character.
I'm super happy about Lucas. His standing grab buff is HUGE. This character feels complete now. It's amazing =) I expect him to rise at least 1 tier because having a viable standing grab with a throw game like this is a huge deal.

I was asking about why Lucas was not considered to be that good and if he will be good now after the grab buff earlier, but everyone just ignored my question.

 

[Y2Kay]

Browny well my b, its 161. still tho, thats still 4th/5th strongest u-throw. Charizard has it worse because he is slow and easy to hit and manouver around, while Kirby is small and can duck bait, and is generally good against rushdown characters. The u-throw is a good buff, just because he is forced to approach doesn't mean he can't grab. We have bad approach options but it doesn't make us helpless and crappy.

Charizard is way faster on the ground, but his air speed is just as bad as Kirby's

 

[Nidtendofreak]

According to the most recent post in the patch official thread (not discussion one), Lucas's Standing and Dash Grab only got a 5 Frame reduction while Pivot Grab is actually the same just with a faster animation but same total frames?

Not nearly as much of a buff as we thought if I'm understanding it right.

 

[Y2Kay]

Does anybody know if Zard's buffs are significant?

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh, yeah, also forgot to mention tethers too

But yeah, outside of the ones MC mentioned and the heavies, does anyone really have any good grab range? The best I can think of Junior and maybe Sonic?

Grab range is pretty much universally less. Not including tether/tether-like grabs: the super heavies, Marth/Roy/Luc, and Zelda have the best.

But no one actually tested this IIRC.

Nidtendofreak @LordWilliam1234 What Willy meant was that the IASA was reduced AND the animation was sped up. Lucas's grab is as dumb as the patch notes say it is.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My point is that ever since Charizard got his uthrow buff, people have been constantly saying its so powerful and the strongest vertical kill throw when its not, it is not even close sitting 24% behind Mewtwos.

Kirby gets a throw that is STRONGER than Charizards and people are acting like its not a big deal.

No, it is a big deal. That's a huge buff, be happy.

Of course I'm talking about optimal DI here. With optimal DI its still stronger than Chairzards (apparently)

Charizard's uthrow is a better kill move than Mewtwo's because of how it interacts with platforms (and Charizard has a good platform game otherwise and a monster grab range). You can't really consider it from FD since any Charizard who knows how to play will use his stage ban on FD, and any zard player with sense will not let SV happen game one since any other stage has a higher probability of an overhead platform.

I do think Kirby's buff here is a great tool for Kirby, but Kirby's grab game isn't as good as Charizard's otherwise and seemingly weaker anyway. I mean, don't get me wrong; I think Kirby got one of the biggest buffs in this patch, but there's no need to be down on what an incredible tool Charizard's uthrow is for him.

 

[Browny]

Charizard's uthrow is a better kill move than Mewtwo's because of how it interacts with platforms (and Charizard has a good platform game otherwise and a monster grab range). You can't really consider it from FD since any Charizard who knows how to play will use his stage ban on FD, and any zard player with sense will not let SV happen game one since any other stage has a higher probability of an overhead platform.

I do think Kirby's buff here is a great tool for Kirby, but Kirby's grab game isn't as good as Charizard's otherwise and seemingly weaker anyway. I mean, don't get me wrong; I think Kirby got one of the biggest buffs in this patch, but there's no need to be down on what an incredible tool Charizard's uthrow is for him.

How about no.

Mewtwos uthrow kills significantly earlier on the ground, than charizards does on a platform (20% earlier). IIRC even when on the absolute edge of smashville and landing on the platform, Charizards uthrow STILL kills later than mewtwos uthrow when standing on the ground.

I dont remember the numbers off the top of my head but I tested this stuff extensively months back.

I swear to god the amount of people on this website who debate this with me, yet refuse to spend ONE SINGLE MINUTE actually testing anything, is astounding.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Charizard's U-Throw kills Mario at 105% with the top platform of Battlefield

Mewtwo kills Mario at 142% from the ground of Battlefield (both tested without DI)

Unless this isn't what you're talking about?

edit:

For Smashville, Mewtwo kills at 132% grounded while Charizard kills at 109% from the platform.

 

[Y2Kay]

Charizard's U-Throw kills Mario at 105% with the top platform of Battlefield

Mewtwo kills Mario at 142% from the ground of Battlefield (both tested without DI)

Unless this isn't what you're talking about?

U might want to try the two lower ones as well, but the answer is most likely the same: Zard's up throw kills earlier on platforms.

 

[C0rvus]

Also worth noting is the fact that Zard is much more likely to live to high rage percents. Rage Charizard is super scary.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

U might want to try the two lower ones as well, but the answer is most likely the same: Zard's up throw kills earlier on platforms.

I'm not gonna find the exact % because I'm lazy but it killed at 130% so it's better regardless.


"I swear to god the amount of people on this website who debate this with me, yet refuse to spend ONE SINGLE MINUTE actually testing anything, is astounding."

lol

 

[Nobie]

This is sort of a follow-up to the "gameplay identities" post from earlier today, but my goodness people seem to hate the idea that their characters have weaknesses.

Every time I read the salt, even if some of it consists of legitimate gripes, people seem to want their characters to be such that they have no real downsides, only "good things" and "better things."

Kirby gets higher kill power, including a fancy upgraded throw, but out come the standard complaints that Kirby's bad approach needs to be fixed. Shulk gets a bunch of landing lag buffs and even a few damage buffs to further reward spacing, but people still want to give Shulk faster attacks.

Maybe Kirby's character is supposed to be short-ranged and bad at approaching. Maybe Shulk isn't supposed to have a jab of the gods. Not saying they wouldn't get further buffs, or that buffs to their core weaknesses are totally out of the picture, but it's like everyone wants their characters to slowly move towards either a Sheik-esque or ZSS-style ideal.

I understand everyone wants their characters to be better and more viable, but it always seems as if players hate the idea that their characters have clear, exploitable weaknesses that they need to play around, when that is supposed to be part of the package of having different playstyles.

 

[dean.]

Charizard's uthrow is much more influenced by DI than Mewtwo.

My tests: with no rage/fresh move bonus on Mario WITH good DI (training mode) Mewtwo's uthrow kills at 143% from the bottom of Battlefield and Charizard's kills at 150% from the Battlefield lower platforms.
I'm not getting the 20% lower figure Browny listed but hey maybe his DI's better than mine.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby's shortcomings make sense. It's how he is in his games, and it generally makes sense. You're not getting far with short stubby feet.

I'm still going to attribute Kirby's flaws to being a N64 character, though. N64 characters seem to hold the title of the most basic characters... Mario, Luigi, Ness, Falcon, etc. (excluding yellow rat dude)

Generally, N64 characters are either good or bad solely depending on their speed due to how basic their movesets are. Obviously I'm not talking about mobility specifically, because Luigi/Ness.

Kirby's moveset isn't really reflective of the character's development over the years. None of the N64 characters really are. They're going to remain like this forever, though, because it's what works.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Nidtendofreak @LordWilliam1234 What Willy meant was that the IASA was reduced AND the animation was sped up. Lucas's grab is as dumb as the patch notes say it is.

So let me get this straight. The total animation of Lucas's standing grab lasts 45 frames, but its IASA/FAF is on frame 38, correct? I want to make sure I understand this.

 

[Browny]

I'm not gonna find the exact % because I'm lazy but it killed at 130% so it's better regardless.


"I swear to god the amount of people on this website who debate this with me, yet refuse to spend ONE SINGLE MINUTE actually testing anything, is astounding."

lol

TEST IT OH MY GOD. DI isnt hard, do you even know how to do it?

I have videos of all of this right here on my pc but im not uploading them all coz australian internet sucks it would take me an hour while it would take you all of 1 minute to have charizard uthrow an enemy onto SV platform, DI CORRECTLY, and live far longer than 109%. I've got Mario living at around 150% when landing on the platform.

Or don't, be lazy like the rest.

 

[Gawain]

Can people like, stop suggesting falling uair is an approach option?

Do you not realise how bad that is? You're going to approach a gounded enemy with an attack that hits above you, leaving you completely open to any attack or grab. Its the second worst approach behind approaching with a bair while facing forwards.

Also a frame 16 downb move oos is not a good option.

Real talk, this is basically universal horrible advice lol. Falcons up air when used properly Is like around -1 on shield. It's by far his safest approach, even more than bair. Many characters have a similar story. Up airs tend to have low landing lag. Are they harder to hit with? Sure. But they are perfectly valid approaches in many matchups, and are universally valid punish options that are almost always high reward. For example cloud can combo his falling up air into limit downb, up B and sideb. All at their respective kill percents. That's a big deal. It also combos into fair spikes. It's a good move.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

A buff is a buff. Kirby's shortcomings were: Recovering, killing, and mobility (which brands into approach and being camped out) but these were the main three. This update swiped one of them away, basically. His aerials and smashes kill about 5%ish) earlier, and his u-throw kills ahout 20-30% earlier which can also be platform boosted.

To put this into context, Mike said that if u-throw was this strong in his set vs Nairo, he would've won the set. This buff makes the difference, it helps him a LOT with one of his biggest problems. Kirby's mobility is MEANT to be bad, his range is MEANT to be bad, I doubt that will change. He is MEANT to have bad startup on aerials and little endlag, I doubt that will change. His recovery is meant to (as much as I cry) be extremely gimpable, but i mean if they wanna fix that i would be more than happy.

Having a kill throw and better kill moves completley matters, it is not overshadowed and it gives him a good buff. No need to complain.

 

[Browny]

Yeah uairs are good approach options... When they hit. They are still horrendously unsafe. Falcons is rare in how good it is, hitting so far in front of him that quickly making it actually safe.

Most characters in this game have falling uair combos that lead into kill moves and some are disgustingly strong like Mewtwo, greninja, shiek. Pity that almost never eventuates in real practice because of how unsafe it is.

 

[Amadeus9]

Yeah uairs are good approach options... When they hit. They are still horrendously unsafe.

Most characters in this game have falling uair combos that lead into kill moves and some are disgustingly strong like Mewtwo, greninja, shiek. Pity that almost never eventuates in real practice because of how unsafe it is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=127531413

7 startup frames
15 frames of endlag
+1 frame advantage on block
godlike hitbox that is dangerous to challenge

your move fren

edit: for comparison, metaknights fsmash faf is 18 frames after hitbox. and that move is pretty unsafe amirite

 

[G. Stache]

Luigi's the one not suffering as much, but let's make his Fireballs worse and let's make his dash grab stop him in place like Mario and there you go, he's going to suffer.

Please don't give Sakurai any more ideas. We don't need it. Anyone who thinks Luigi needs more tweaks for the worse either just hates the poor plumber or is the most devoted troll I've ever seen. (Not to say that you are either of those, but don't give them food for thought).

Anyways, moving away from **** posting. I like Bowsers buffs to the point where I've moved back to using him, but I do think more issues could be addressed without making him too good. Case in point: landing options. I'm still forced to either go to the edge 90% or get punished. Sometimes I'll be able to get a few mixup in, but they're all risky and usually not worth it. Don't get me wrong, bowser with hoo hah is great and very much needed. But a little more would never go amiss. I feel that he's definitely on the same level as DK now. Extremely good reward with extremely exploitable weaknesses. Also, would we say rage on bowser accents hoo hah or works against it? Because it obviously makes moves stronger, but it also takes away the true part of the true combo.

 

[PK Gaming]

The Link vs Cloud MU, I know for certain, isn't going to be easy for Cloud at all. Link can just kill Cloud earlier than reversed, Link has more reward and Link has better range, KO options and combo options against Cloud, as well as baiting. Since Link has his infamous N-Air of Doom (since it gimps any character with an abysmal recovery, like Cloud), Cloud will not have a chance of recovering if he doesn't have Limit Climhazzard. If Link can't use N-Air, he can always use D-Air, F-Air or, on the edge, use F-Tilt.

Link is also one of the only characters who can beat Cloud's Limit Down B, since Link can kind of get back on stage by using his F-Air getup tech. ZeRo said Cloud can cover everything with it, but this is not true, since Link's F-Air beats it outright as a bait and punish maneuver (so in short, ZeRo exaggerated). Cloud's attacks make Link's look wonderful in comparison, since Link has the much faster attacks and much better frame data (on Smashes and certain tilts ONLY) and projectiles. Link's Bomb can beat Cloud's Limit Blade Beam (since that Bomb can beat a lot of things), Link has no trouble in getting in a lot of damage and comparable to Cloud, Link can get the job done in damage and KO reward.

Cloud has a better Dash Attack and can easily punish Link's N-Air when he lands, but only if Link wants to do D-Smash instead of F-Smash and Jab. Otherwise, Cloud will need to try to think of something to get past the brick wall of Link. Cloud's F-Air meteor is abysmal to anyone aside from the three lugs, so Cloud may have a tough time hitting Link with that meteor, and may instead hit Link with the normal hit.

I believe in the coming days, I might have more information, but these are my preliminary runs against Cloud players (good ones). Cloud has a preliminary score against Link of...

Cloud <--- 35 : 65 ---> Link

Larry

It hasn't even been a day

Goddamnit Larry

 

[Rizen]

Except bombs have a hurtbox and eat things.

^This.
I did some testing. Bombs explode and trigger the multi-hit property of LB blade beam but stop it from moving forward. All Link's projectiles stop and cancel with normal blade beam. Standard attacks cancel normal bb but not limit break bb. Arrows and boomerang simply travel through limit bb and neither are affected because it's transcendent.

tl;dr normal bb cancels with attacks, limit break is transcendent and Link's bombs count as a hurtbox.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Trying to think of a character with a better Uair than Cloud. Falcon? Zss? Maybe Robin's levin Uair?

Fact is, Cloud's has amazing utility, a good hitbox and killpower to boot. We all know his falling Uair as a combo starter, landing option, kill move...
Sound familiar?
If it were frame 3 it'd basically be 1.0 Diddy's Uair.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja can get falling Up-Air combos pretty easily really. I've gotten my fair share of kills with it in a competitive setting.

Though he's not going to get it when the opponent is grounded.

 

[rrrRandy]

Does anybody know if Zard's buffs are significant?

They're nice, but extremely minor improvements.

A lower angle on dash attack basically means you can knock people offstage with a comparatively low commitment long-distance punish (because Charizard's dash grab is awful), instead of popping them up into the air above the stage. Most likely a positive change since it can more easily put you in an advantageous edgeguarding position, though you're still not really ever going to be able to hit the move often.

A brief period of labbing with Charizard's Usmash showed that there seemed to be no increase in the range of the move in any meaningful area if at all, and it's still possible to hit opponents behind Charizard with the first hit without launching them into the second hit. However, the move is now more consistent as an anti-air option, as there are now hitboxes on the first hit above Charizard that hit the opponent downward into you to better link into the second hit (actually really nice since the stronger hitboxes on the second hit are at the base of the wings), as opposed to just very lightly upward which allowed lighter/smaller characters to be knocked away from the second hit when Charizard is at higher %. I didn't look much deeper than that, but basically the move is just slightly more consistent at doing what it was you already were doing with it.

The increased KBG on Charizard's Dsmash makes it kill about 5% earlier than it did before, killing fairly consistently at 120%, or less if you're close to the ledge. Makes the move a stronger option in certain situations, can't complain about that. Still super unsafe, but I don't think it'll ever not be, given the size of its hitboxes.

They're buffs, alright. They don't suddenly make Charizard not super unsafe on shield or completely unable to land without taking damage, but they're buffs.

 

[Y2Kay]

Charizard needs a little more love. DDD too.

Can all the super heavies just have a hoo ha now?

 

[neil2020]

Real talk, this is basically universal horrible advice lol. Falcons up air when used properly Is like around -1 on shield. It's by far his safest approach, even more than bair. Many characters have a similar story. Up airs tend to have low landing lag. Are they harder to hit with? Sure. But they are perfectly valid approaches in many matchups, and are universally valid punish options that are almost always high reward. For example cloud can combo his falling up air into limit downb, up B and sideb. All at their respective kill percents. That's a big deal. It also combos into fair spikes. It's a good move.

Browny I just want to echo this. In this case, Cloud's Uair is probably his best tool for a combo start/approach. If you look at his frame data it's even positive on block, which is huge in this game where shields are so strong an option. The fact that you can combo just about anything you want out of (again, in this case) Cloud's Uair make it extremely viable as an approach, and that will be what separates the good Clouds from the great Clouds, much like Falcon players. Also given its autocancel properties makes it an all-around safe move to use, properly timed and spaced.

 

[Pyr]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=127531413

7 startup frames
15 frames of endlag
+1 frame advantage on block
godlike hitbox that is dangerous to challenge

your move fren

edit: for comparison, metaknights fsmash faf is 18 frames after hitbox. and that move is pretty unsafe amirite

Is that +1 when you hit the frame before you land? Because that changes things a lot if so. It's day 1, but it's clear that Cloud would have better safety options then this. For example, the +2 Bair that has more range.

That said, it's still -6 against OOS and it's range isn't going to afford you real safety.

Edit: To clarify, range refers to vertical range, which is going to matter more on approach against a grounded character.

 

[Amadeus9]

Is that +1 when you hit the frame before you land? Because that changes things a lot if so. It's day 1, but it's clear that Cloud would have better safety options then this. For example, the +2 Bair that has more range.

That said, it's still -6 against OOS and it's range isn't going to afford you real safety.

Edit: To clarify, range refers to vertical range, which is going to matter more on approach against a grounded character.

im not exactly sure what you mean. the hitbox is fantastic for approaching, and dangerous to challenge because it comes out so fast and generally trading with it is bad, and if u dont trade with it youre going take a pretty nasty combo. bair cant say that, also that moves hitbox can probably just be crouched, uair literally hits right on the ground.

edit: also with correct spacing u can cross up shield with it, and yes the hit box is that ridiculous

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Cloud's uair autocancels as well, and it lingers for-****ing-ever...I'm in agreement with whoever said that move shouldn't have made it out of testing, lol

but bair isn't bad, either. It's great for snagging people for quick and dirty air-to-air exchanges and edgeguards. I even find myself using it to mix up spacing besides (since, you know, it also ****ing autocancels).

Smooth Criminal

 

[thehard]

Has anyone talked about how Cloud's jab combo completely crosses up shields? Seems like it would throw a lot of people off.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Does anybody know if Zard's buffs are significant?

Dsmash kills a tad earlier, it's not huge though. But eh, it's a buff to the option I guess. I used it for empty short hops and it worked a bit better than Fsmash at times while also covering rolls.

Dash attack change is a buff for all but one situation. The angle is sent people before sometimes worked for follow-ups but nothing was guaranteed for sure off it, it was a set-up with reads only. You popped them up in the air and that was it, now it send them more horizontal so now it works better to push them off stage which is more useful for Zard.

I still have no idea what the Usmash changes did, since it having a better hitbox was already in a previous patch so I got nothing on what actually changed with it.

They buffed his worst smash attack to kill better, it helps. Dash attack is a bigger deal and helps him out. Still no idea where Usmash changed.

 

[Browny]

Disregard what I said earlier, clouds uair hits infront and below him. I thought it was just above him like marth/lucina/roy.