Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[warionumbah2]

and did decently to good against his MK and Megaman,

My is gutter trash. I dropped alot of my punishes with because Wifi shenanigans.

Bowser is very simple to use compared to the other two especially online.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm going to attest to that. Bowser is a very hard matchup for Cloud, it seems like. I played with warionumbah2 for a bit, and did decently to good against his MK and Megaman, but Bowser... Any whiff/miscalculation = pivot grab = a lot of damage. Can't pressure his shield either, because Cloud's grab reward is... nonexistent. Cross up nair is pretty safe though. Using Uair in neutral is pretty much a no go, his Utilt just like... swats you away. Meh

I think I'm inclined to agree it sounds annoying, but I think I'd do a lot of u-throwing in this matchup. Mostly to force Bowser above me since his air speed isn't very good. This is VERY preferrable on platform stages.

I REALLY feel like Cloud gets WAY better on stages like Battlefield or stages that let him exert platform pressure because his is very, very good.

 

[Mario766]

I honestly don't think that Cloud struggles to kill as much as once thought if he has limit break. Finishing Touch is excellent since it can be used OoS to punish laggy options and it can be true comboed out of Falling Up-Air. Limit Cross Slash also combos out of N-Air at kill percents until you get too high, then you get options out of sour spot down air. Down Air looks fantastic for getting the 2 frame, making sealing stocks just edgeguarding.

Cloud's gonna LOVE the stage list also. You're gonna wanna ban BF/DL and you usually only get one ban unless your region gives 2. Up Air and up tilt are fantastic platform options and Finishing Touch will destroy anyone who is forced onto the platform.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Límit Climhazzard combos for kills with landing U-Air, sour D-Air and U-Tilt at certain %'s. I don't think full hop D-Air is really that great, though, as platforms mess with it too much to reliably use it.

Also, I've been focusing a lot more on movement with Cloud, dash dancing w/ a lot of platform shenanigans. Cloud has G&W's special dash dance property, but with the addition of incredible IASA on initial dash. There's much more control available during this compared to FE Dance Trots, too, which is amazing. Dash Dance to Limit Cross Slash, Limit Blade Beam and sometimes even Finishing Touch is really, really good. Due to Cloud's IASA on initial dash you can also use D-Tilt right away to travel the dash distance with a hitbox to punish.

I'm probably gonna be playing Cloud for a while because of his dash dance. It's generally better than all of the dance trots and crushes G&W's dash dance in viability. I'm hoping Kamui can keep up the tradition of FE dance trot so I can switch to him, tho.

Also, platforms with reverse Blade Beam is a ton of fun. Gives him a lot of mix up options due to it's glide.

 

[bc1910]

Gonna go out on a limb and say Greninja's frame data is actually pretty good.

It's a couple of crucial moves (Fair, Nair, grab startup) that drag the average down. He has a f3 jab, tilts all on or under f10, and fairly fast smashes. Ftilt, dash attack and Utilt all have a FAF of 33 and Dtilt has a FAF of 27. Dashgrab has good frame data, as do shurikens.

Cloud's average frame data is probably comparable to or better than Greninja's, but in terms of the pokes both characters will actually be using, Greninja's frame data eclipses Cloud's substantially. It's definitely a problem for Cloud.

Cloud's ground mobility is looking really good, though. His excellent initial dash and limit cancel give him a wide array of options. Good mobility massively takes the edge off suspect frame data.

 

[Ffamran]

Charging Limit offstage (if you manage it right) is really critical especially since you can cancel the charge into literally anything for free lol. If you have an idea on how much meter you got, always do this.

I feel like people aren't running away and playing lame enough =P. Nair is stupid for retreating and you can cancel Down-B into literally anything. Runaway is pretty viable with this character until you build limit, then you toss them up with U-Throw or any move that launches vertically and fish for whatever you want.

Not saying he's super amazing but I don't think you can approach him as a character that really "goes in" immediately IMO.

I'm getting Pac-Man off-stage Bonus Fruit charging vibes here...

I think people are failing to see the flaws in her design. She's really tall, and has a large hurtbox. So she can be spaced out and will likely lose to smaller characters.
Her combo game seems ZSS level though, she'll definitely be really strong though.

Oh yeah, Bayonetta is ridiculously tall in her own games... Y'know, I think if they stuck with her home series, she'd be taller than Ganondorf... I swear she's supposed to be taller than Ganondorf, but it might not be true. Anyway, that's just one thing about her... Probably as tall as Samus at the very least...

Anyway, people who played either Bayonetta or Devil May Cry (1) - games made by the same developers - : you all should assume what Bayonetta's fall speed will be. For those that haven't, Bay's probably going to be a fast faller. Air speed-wise, I don't know since I don't remember well, but air acceleration and deceleration-wise, she might be screwed. While Bayonetta and DMC are different games to Smash and while both Bay and Dante have good control over which direction they jump, they commit hard like Ryu which makes sense considering DMC was from the same company as Street Fighter and Bayonetta was made by the same developers of DMC. Granted, in both games, well, in DMC3, DMC4, DmC, and all Bayonetta games, you had access to some kind of air dash, so you weren't really stuck in one direction (and you don't have to deal with startup like Ryu's Focus Attack's dash requiring some 20 frames before moving). From the looks of things, Bay might not have an air dash... so... yeah.

I think I'm gonna stick it out with Cloud. I like the cut of his jib, let's see if I can find anything. Gonna try and put a vid up on just basic Limit Cancelling stuff and whatnot, it hasn't been talked about a lot here but it's really cool.

As for Mewtwo I still think his problems very much exist, he's just gotten noticeable improvements. Turning into one of the fastest moving characters in the game on the ground is pretty good for dashgrabbing and his USmash, and all of his aerials have gotten better.

Dunno if he's tournament viable yet but he is definitely noticeably better.

Bayo looks like combo crazy but also 1 million multihits so trades are gonna suck for her IMO. We have 3 months of development left so this is only speculation and not even worth thinking about, but that's just what I can pull from it. She'll be really good though if it all pans out the way it looks it will.

Y'know, I always wondered how a character would function if all their moves were multi-hits... I expected Sephiroth since his entire moveset was made up of multi-hits in Dissidia, though. Bayonetta also has a unique mechanic like in her games where you can followup after attacks, so she might have an incredible bait game where she could purposely miss or know that if she misses, she can still attack right after.

 

[Y2Kay]

How threatening do you guys think bullet climax will be?

 

[Amadeus9]

How threatening do you guys think bullet climax will be?

How are we supposed to know that, now

 

[Aunt Jemima]

How are we supposed to know that, now

break into bill trinens house and make him give us the dev build with that sexy knuckles mii

 

[Jaguar360]

Gonna go out on a limb and say Greninja's frame data is actually pretty good.

It's a couple of crucial moves (Fair, Nair, grab startup) that drag the average down. He has a f3 jab, tilts all on or under f10, and fairly fast smashes. Ftilt, dash attack and Utilt all have a FAF of 33 and Dtilt has a FAF of 27. Dashgrab has good frame data, as do shurikens.

Cloud's average frame data is probably comparable to or better than Greninja's, but in terms of the pokes both characters will actually be using, Greninja's frame data eclipses Cloud's substantially. It's definitely a problem for Cloud.

Cloud's ground mobility is looking really good, though. His excellent initial dash and limit cancel give him a wide array of options. Good mobility massively takes the edge off suspect frame data.

I agree. All those patches buffed his poor 1.04 frame data to something pretty solid. His aerial frame data is still lacking though, hence why he has poor OoS options alongside 14f standing grab, but he makes up for this in range and reward for the aerials that are a bit slow.

 

[Radical Larry]

The Link vs Cloud MU, I know for certain, isn't going to be easy for Cloud at all. Link can just kill Cloud earlier than reversed, Link has more reward and Link has better range, KO options and combo options against Cloud, as well as baiting. Since Link has his infamous N-Air of Doom (since it gimps any character with an abysmal recovery, like Cloud), Cloud will not have a chance of recovering if he doesn't have Limit Climhazzard. If Link can't use N-Air, he can always use D-Air, F-Air or, on the edge, use F-Tilt.

Link is also one of the only characters who can beat Cloud's Limit Down B, since Link can kind of get back on stage by using his F-Air getup tech. ZeRo said Cloud can cover everything with it, but this is not true, since Link's F-Air beats it outright as a bait and punish maneuver (so in short, ZeRo exaggerated). Cloud's attacks make Link's look wonderful in comparison, since Link has the much faster attacks and much better frame data (on Smashes and certain tilts ONLY) and projectiles. Link's Bomb can beat Cloud's Limit Blade Beam (since that Bomb can beat a lot of things), Link has no trouble in getting in a lot of damage and comparable to Cloud, Link can get the job done in damage and KO reward.

Cloud has a better Dash Attack and can easily punish Link's N-Air when he lands, but only if Link wants to do D-Smash instead of F-Smash and Jab. Otherwise, Cloud will need to try to think of something to get past the brick wall of Link. Cloud's F-Air meteor is abysmal to anyone aside from the three lugs, so Cloud may have a tough time hitting Link with that meteor, and may instead hit Link with the normal hit.

I believe in the coming days, I might have more information, but these are my preliminary runs against Cloud players (good ones). Cloud has a preliminary score against Link of...

Cloud <--- 35 : 65 ---> Link

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I wouldn't recommend putting MU ratios on a character that's less than a day old

 

[Mario766]

I'm gonna ignore your post just because you posted a 65-35.

Cloud's been out for literally ~24 hours now.

I think you're severely overestimating Link also, while we're talking.



Limit Blade Beam is TRANSCENDENT. Bomb does not beat it because it DOESN'T INTERACT WITH ANYTHING, IT GOES THROUGH IT.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Doesn't Limit Blade Beam transition into the multihit if it touches anything that can be interacted with? I'd assume bombs follow the same thing?

 

[Y2Kay]

How are we supposed to know that, now

that's why I said what do you THINK and WILL be, as in just theory

Bullet climax was a move i just thought was overlooked when theorizing....

 

[Mario766]

Considering it doesn't interact with other projectiles I don't see why it'd interact with bombs, unless it doesn't interact with energy based projectiles but does with Bombs/Boomerang. Which doesn't matter as much, the main use for it would be to catch people recovering or use at the ledge to force people into a bad position.

 

[Locke 06]

Limit Blade Beam is TRANSCENDENT. Bomb does not beat it because it DOESN'T INTERACT WITH ANYTHING, IT GOES THROUGH IT.

Except bombs have a hurtbox and eat things.

Lucas Pk fire, lloid rocket, DH Frisbee/can, etc (can't think of more ATM) have hurtboxes.

Edit: Luma shot. Gordo. Saturn.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I'm personally pleased with the changes Link got. The f-air change especially.

What's sexy about the retooled f-air? It was always an OK move...

So what's with the hit angles on moves with a 130 degree angle changing to > 50 ?

The facing bit was flipped, so the angle had to be mirrored across the 90 degree to retain the same apparent angle.

 

[LancerStaff]

So, about Corrin... Would be willing to bet money he'll be low tier at best if I had some to spare.

Dragon's Lance or whatever looks like a tether grab, but you can use it in the air. Either you can shield it or it's going to be really laggy. Corrin probably has a normal grab, but then again Dorf and pre-patch Robin had pretty bad grab games to "make up" for having the command grabs. Looks like it's built specifically for fishing in FFAs... Dragon's Breath is built like the ever so useful Phantom Slash, although it might be a decent edge guard. Mobility looks average at best, recovery ain't that special either. Absolutely nothing stands out to me as looking good besides Bair, and that's assuming it doesn't have a truckload of endlag.

Really looks like one of those characters designed to sit outside of a brawl and won't be able to defend himself properly in a 1v1 situation.

 

[Jamurai]

If we're talking about new characters we should be talking about apparent tools they have, styles of play, how their properties will affect their viability, etc. Not slapping around matchup ratios based on theory alone with a character meta advancement time of 24 hours, or calling their position in a tier list of any kind. Sounds extremely silly. Especially characters where the only detailed information we have about their kits is about their specials (Corrin and Bayonetta), we should essentially be leaving them alone entirely.

 

[Vipermoon]

So, about Corrin... Would be willing to bet money he'll be low tier at best if I had some to spare.

Dragon's Lance or whatever looks like a tether grab, but you can use it in the air. Either you can shield it or it's going to be really laggy. Corrin probably has a normal grab, but then again Dorf and pre-patch Robin had pretty bad grab games to "make up" for having the command grabs. Looks like it's built specifically for fishing in FFAs... Dragon's Breath is built like the ever so useful Phantom Slash, although it might be a decent edge guard. Mobility looks average at best, recovery ain't that special either. Absolutely nothing stands out to me as looking good besides Bair, and that's assuming it doesn't have a truckload of endlag.

Really looks like one of those characters designed to sit outside of a brawl and won't be able to defend himself properly in a 1v1 situation.

I don't agree. Corrin is small and seems fairly nimble. And if you saw his Uair, he might technically be based on Marth - which means he might get Marth's grab (which is a good thing). He has Melee Roy/Smash 4 Ike's Dtilt, and what looks like a fast Ftilt, Utilt (which seems to be a combo starter), jab, and dash attack. I don't remember if we saw his Usmash or Dsmash but we know the Fsmash range. If it lags less than Shulk's, that Fsmash will be good. He has a stall and fall Dair but his Nair is really fast full body coverage like Cloud's but with really low landing lag. I remember seeing Bair having decent end lag (I bet it's the same lag as Marth's). Fair seems to mimic Marth/Roy; we saw Uair. His specials look useful and he definitely has a better recovery than Cloud.

I think Corrin has a chance at being good or decent. We'll see though, because we know nothing about his grab game and whatever kill setups he can create.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't agree. Corrin is small and seems fairly nimble. And if you saw his Uair, he might technically be based on Marth - which means he might get Marth's grab (which is a good thing). He has Melee Roy/Smash 4 Ike's Dtilt, and what looks like a fast Ftilt, Utilt (which seems to be a combo starter), jab, and dash attack. I don't remember if we saw his Usmash or Dsmash but we know the Fsmash range. If it lags less than Shulk's, that Fsmash will be good. He has a stall and fall Dair but his Nair is really fast full body coverage like Cloud's but with really low landing lag. I remember seeing Bair having decent end lag (I bet it's the same lag as Marth's). Fair seems to mimic Marth/Roy; we saw Uair. His specials look useful and he definitely has a better recovery than Cloud.

I think Corrin has a chance at being good or decent. We'll see though, because we know nothing about his grab game and whatever kill setups he can create.

Plot twist: all the Fire Emblem characters except Ike have the same startup for all grab - Ike's dash and pivot have different startup. They all, but Robin, share the same total frames. Gee, I wonder why? It would not surprise me one bit if Corrin's startup and maybe even total frames for grabs are the same as Lucina, Marth, Robin, and Roy's. This would immediately beg the question why Robin's grab while fast has longer recovery and short range while she's incredibly slow compared to the others. Yes, Robin and Roy's throw games are better than Lucina and Marth's, but who's going to get grabs more easily? Robin won't.

In a similar scenario, all Mario characters except for Bowser and Bowser Jr. have the same grab startup as well. Peach deviates by having a slower pivot grab and both Peach and Rosalina have more recovery, but still... There's patterns in this game and some of them are just plain stupid. It's really easy for Mario and Rosalina to get grabs through sheer speed alone, so of course they should have fast grabs... Dr. Mario, Peach, and even Luigi are much slower, but at least they have fast grabs, right? For Dr. Mario, doesn't really make up since he's significantly slower than Mario on the ground, Peach still suffers from being slow on the ground and having slightly more recovery for reasons unbeknownst to me, and Luigi's the one not suffering as much, but let's make his Fireballs worse and let's make his dash grab stop him in place like Mario and there you go, he's going to suffer.

 

[Radical Larry]

Except bombs have a hurtbox and eat things.

Lucas Pk fire, lloid rocket, DH Frisbee/can, etc (can't think of more ATM) have hurtboxes.

Edit: Luma shot. Gordo. Saturn.

Yes, Bombs have a hurtbox and can interact with every single projectile, even Cloud's.

Link's Bombs defeat:
Mega Man's projectiles (F-Smash, Crash Bomber and Lemons)
Samus's Fully Charged Charge Shot
Lucario's Aura Sphere (No Matter What)
Frieza's (Mewtwo's) Shadow Ball (OM NOM NOM NOM NOM!)
Robin's Thunder, Elthunder, Arcthunder, Arcfire and Elwind.
Mario and Luigi's Fireballs
Doctor Mario's Megavitamins
Cloud's Blade Beam and Limit Blade Beam
Fox and Falco's Lasers
ZSS's Paralyzer
Sheik's Needles

...basically, any attack such as Metal Blade, Leaf Shield, Thoron, Robo Beam and Din's Fire, which are invulnerable projectiles, physical projectiles or pass-through projectiles, can beat Link's Bombs. Cloud's Limit Blade Beam isn't the same as something like Thoron or Metal Blade. It activates as soon as it touches a hurtbox and is a waste against a Link holding a bomb or Z-Dropping one.

People need to know how dangerously good Link's Bombs can be. Because for a projectile that can do 5% damage, they can surely disintegrate a damn powerful attack.

What's sexy about the retooled f-air? It was always an OK move...

It can kill earlier now and it's better at edge-guarding, shield poking and damage racking. That's pretty sexy.

 

[TriTails]

Let's not start ****s by discussing unreleased characters. Trailers mean nothing to actually playing a character.

Although, Corrin's U-air... That single move is used by 4 friggin' other people in FE universe. Really bothers me.

 

[Browny]

Kirby's U-Throw buffs aren't that significant. With 100% Rage, Mario doesn't die until 130% with DI. The opponent is basically guaranteed to DI it properly every time due to it's long animation, too.

Also, I don't get the whole thing about Cloud having no kill options. He has things like U-Air/Sour D-Air > Final Touch, U-Air, F-Air and Climhazzard to cover a large amount of %'s on top of two incredible spiking moves and an amazing F-Smash, plus all the other LB moves.

Man why are people downplaying this.
When charizard got a kill throw that doesnt kill Mario until 159% people freak out over it as the best buff ever, Kirby gets a similar platform-boosted kill throw that kills at similar %'s and people think its not that significant?

Please tell me what the kill % for it is with perfect DI, centre stage on FD with 0 rage. I want to know how it fits into the strongest vertical kill throw order which goes like this

Mewtwo: 135%
Lucas: 148%
Olimar (Blue): 154%
Charizard: 159%
ROB: 162%

 

[Firefoxx]

Although, Corrin's U-air... That single move is used by 4 friggin' other people in FE universe. Really bothers me.

Mario, doc, luigi, falcon, ganon, zss (and falco, but his is reversed) all have the same flash kick animation for their up-airs. pretty much everyone shares animations in this game

 

[Browny]

I honestly don't think that Cloud struggles to kill as much as once thought if he has limit break. Finishing Touch is excellent since it can be used OoS to punish laggy options and it can be true comboed out of Falling Up-Air. Limit Cross Slash also combos out of N-Air at kill percents until you get too high, then you get options out of sour spot down air. Down Air looks fantastic for getting the 2 frame, making sealing stocks just edgeguarding.

Cloud's gonna LOVE the stage list also. You're gonna wanna ban BF/DL and you usually only get one ban unless your region gives 2. Up Air and up tilt are fantastic platform options and Finishing Touch will destroy anyone who is forced onto the platform.

Can people like, stop suggesting falling uair is an approach option?

Do you not realise how bad that is? You're going to approach a gounded enemy with an attack that hits above you, leaving you completely open to any attack or grab. Its the second worst approach behind approaching with a bair while facing forwards.

Also a frame 16 downb move oos is not a good option.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Man why are people downplaying this.
When charizard got a kill throw that doesnt kill Mario until 159% people freak out over it as the best buff ever, Kirby gets a similar platform-boosted kill throw that kills at similar %'s and people think its not that significant?

Please tell me what the kill % for it is with perfect DI, centre stage on FD with 0 rage. I want to know how it fits into the strongest vertical kill throw order which goes like this

Mewtwo: 135%
Lucas: 148%
Olimar (Blue): 154%
Charizard: 159%
ROB: 162%

I think its like 151% or something, I just remember its about 30% below pre-patch, its a really good u-throw and it kills when it needs to. Don't know why people are acting like it isn't a big deal ESPECIALLY since it is platform boosted.

FYI max rage top battlefield platform kills sheik at 85% with perfect DI. thats cool.

EDIT: confirmed 150s, dont know if its high or low.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Man why are people downplaying this.
When charizard got a kill throw that doesnt kill Mario until 159% people freak out over it as the best buff ever, Kirby gets a similar platform-boosted kill throw that kills at similar %'s and people think its not that significant?

Please tell me what the kill % for it is with perfect DI, centre stage on FD with 0 rage. I want to know how it fits into the strongest vertical kill throw order which goes like this

Mewtwo: 135%
Lucas: 148%
Olimar (Blue): 154%
Charizard: 159%
ROB: 162%

The problem is the angle Kirby's U-Throw sends at. It makes it so DI screws it over. Obviously it's going to help him with platforms, but it's on a character that's forced to approach at all times with lackluster movement speed and short grab range. It's not hard to avoid being below the top platform against Kirby with Rage.

edit: kills mario at 161% with DI, no rage

edit2: kirbys unchanged bthrow kills at the exact same % with proper DI and no rage from the center

edit3: o wait, that's wrong, it kills 10% later from the middle but 10% earlier at the ledge

 

[Ffamran]

Mario, doc, luigi, falcon, ganon, zss (and falco, but his is reversed) all have the same flash kick animation for their up-airs. pretty much everyone shares animations in this game

It gets real intricate if you slow down their animations, though. If I remember correctly, Captain Falcon flips himself so his body is parallel to the floor and then he immediately kicks up while ZSS's is more noticeably since she sort of kicks diagonally, but that's besides the point. Also, you forgot Kirby's Uair... Poor, little, pink puffball... Oh, and Pac-Man too, but he's too happy to care that you don't remember him.

Adding on, sharing moves isn't a big deal unless they're the same which at that point, it would be pure laziness. The more subtle the differences are the more people will get annoyed and believe the developers are lazy, but could you imagine if 30 characters shared a move, but they were all unique? I would call that a marvel of idea thinking! Part of me kind wishes that Falco kept his Melee Uair's way of hitting, but with Brawl and Smash 4's animation, and Smash 4's speed. Stylistic choice at that point.

 

[TriTails]

Mario, doc, luigi, falcon, ganon, zss (and falco, but his is reversed) all have the same flash kick animation for their up-airs. pretty much everyone shares animations in this game

What bothers me is the move is also 4 other characters' in the same universe, and they don't even share the same game except for Lucina and Robin. IIRC Corrin's U-air looked like it's ripped off straight from Marth, Lucina, and Roy.

Speaking of Roy, funny we talked on how bad his D-air is. Ganon's D-air got a landing lag decrease and IIRC Robin's did too. Why wasn't his touched again?

 

[Browny]

The problem is the angle Kirby's U-Throw sends at. It makes it so DI screws it over. Obviously it's going to help him with platforms, but it's on a character that's forced to approach at all times with lackluster movement speed and short grab range. It's not hard to avoid being below the top platform against Kirby with Rage.

edit: kills mario at 161% with DI, no rage

edit2: kirbys unchanged bthrow kills at the exact same % with proper DI and no rage from the center

My point is that ever since Charizard got his uthrow buff, people have been constantly saying its so powerful and the strongest vertical kill throw when its not, it is not even close sitting 24% behind Mewtwos.

Kirby gets a throw that is STRONGER than Charizards and people are acting like its not a big deal.

No, it is a big deal. That's a huge buff, be happy.

Of course I'm talking about optimal DI here. With optimal DI its still stronger than Chairzards (apparently)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

My point is that ever since Charizard got his uthrow buff, people have been constantly saying its so powerful and the strongest vertical kill throw when its not, it is not even close sitting 24% behind Mewtwos.

Kirby gets a throw that is STRONGER than Charizards and people are acting like its not a big deal.

No, it is a big deal. That's a huge buff, be happy.

Of course I'm talking about optimal DI here. With optimal DI its still stronger than Chairzards (apparently)

but it's weaker than Charizard's?????

im confused

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Please guys. Theres over 50 characters in this game. If you want all the moves to be original, you're in the wrong place.

 

[Amadeus9]

Can people like, stop suggesting falling uair is an approach option?

Do you not realise how bad that is? You're going to approach a gounded enemy with an attack that hits above you, leaving you completely open to any attack or grab. Its the second worst approach behind approaching with a bair while facing forwards.

Also a frame 16 downb move oos is not a good option.

The first frame hits below you, so i dont know wtf ur talking about man. Sounds like ur just getting pissy for the sake of it

As for Finishing Touch, I honestly dont think it's that good in 1v1s. possibly borked in doubles

 

[FallenHero]

I don't play Lucas in this game at all (I have probably only used him like 3 times since he was released in this game), but what was the main thing holding him back that made people say he wasn't that good? I always thought Lucas was a really good character from seeing one of my friends who uses him, every throw he has is great, combos, kill power, kill setups, insane recovery, and a ton of air control when he is in free-fall. The one thing I can think of that held him back was his grab being really slow, but now his grab has been buffed to be much faster. What held him back and will the buff to his grab be all he needs to be a great character?

 

[Browny]

but it's weaker than Charizard's?????

im confused

Mazdamaxsti posted that it kills in the 150's with no rage. Since charizards kills at 159%, at worst Kirbys is even. Any other % from 150-158 makes it stronger.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Mazdamaxsti posted that it kills in the 150's with no rage. Since charizards kills at 159%, at worst Kirbys is even. Any other % from 150-158 makes it stronger.

but it doesn't?

i posted the actual data up there, it kills at 161% with proper DI

 

[KirbySquad101]

The problem is the angle Kirby's U-Throw sends at. It makes it so DI screws it over. Obviously it's going to help him with platforms, but it's on a character that's forced to approach at all times with lackluster movement speed and short grab range. It's not hard to avoid being below the top platform against Kirby with Rage.

edit: kills mario at 161% with DI, no rage

edit2: kirbys unchanged bthrow kills at the exact same % with proper DI and no rage from the center

The angle it sends at is 78 degrees, which is 2 less than R.O.B.s. It does get in the way, but it's not awful like his u-smash.

That's one thing, is it just me, or outside of Bowser and the heavies, everyone has a pretty poor grab range overall? Most of them feel like they really don't go far lol

What stage did you use for those values? I just checked on the Wii U FD, and Kirby's b-throw didn't kill at the center WITHOUT DI until around 174%.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

What stage did you use for those values? I just checked on the Wii U FD, and Kirby's b-throw didn't kill at the center WITHOUT DI until around 174%.

That's why I edited the post after initially sending that out~